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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    585

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
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So judging from the last several posts, opinions on who was "the biggest winner" of the patch, as well as the impact of :ultsheik::ultzelda::ultdoc:, varies very much between person to person.
This is kind of reflected on social media. For example, most players (including myself) think :ultdoc: is still mediocre, while Goblin thinks that he is slept on and is high tier.

This is nothing new in the Smash scene, as stuff like this happens since the beginning.

In the end, it comes down to time to see where these buffs will take these characters. Will VoiD find consistent success with the buffed Sheik? While ven and other Zelda players break the 33rd barrier (though this is mostly due to garbage bracket luck lol)? Will a doc player show up to showcase the buffs in a significant way?

Find out next time in the next episode of the Ultimate meta.
 
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Nobie

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In regards to Pit, I have this odd theory that part of why people think Pit is bad or that he's "not functioning" as a character is that they see his wings and fundamentally misunderstand the type of character he's supposed to be. Whereas they think he's supposed to be an air-based fighter whose nair should be able to cut through opponents, he's actually a ground-based neutral character with movement properties and frame data that facilitate this.

I sort of categorize Byleth and Pit in the same archetype, except that where Byleth has range, Pit has speed. They're front-loaded with effective whiff-punishing tools but suffer from end lag that makes them extra-vulnerable if they predict wrong.
 

Thinkaman

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So judging from the last several posts, opinions on who was "the biggest winner" of the patch, as well as the impact of :ultsheik::ultzelda::ultdoc:, varies very much between person to person.
This is kind of reflected on social media. For example, most players (including myself) think :ultdoc: is still mediocre, while Goblin thinks that he is slept on and is high tier.

This is nothing new in the Smash scene, as stuff like this happens since the beginning.

In the end, it comes down to time to see where these buffs will take these characters. Will VoiD find consistent success with the buffed Sheik? While ven and other Zelda players break the 33rd barrier (though this is mostly due to garbage bracket luck lol)? Will a doc player show up to showcase the buffs in a significant way?
It's going to be a little asymmetric:
  • Sheik has a top-10 calibur player ready and willing to go all the way with the character.
  • Zelda has advocates ready to go, but they are more in the top-150 range.
  • Doc has (AFAIK) no top players on deck ready to take him to the limit, and is competing directly with a popular top-tier character for players. Like, maybe Lui$? I can't think of anyone else with Doc history.
Ryu, Ken, and the Links are all in yet different positions. We might have to wait for the dust to settle and then some.
 

Impax

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Mar 18, 2015
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  • Doc has (AFAIK) no top players on deck ready to take him to the limit, and is competing directly with a popular top-tier character for players. Like, maybe Lui$? I can't think of anyone else with Doc history.
Ryu, Ken, and the Links are all in yet different positions. We might have to wait for the dust to settle and then some.
Tsumusoto (japan) is pretty good I think. Oryon (france) also secondaries him. Hes somewhere near the top of France's PR. Those are the only potentially top 150 type players I can think of.
 
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TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Okay, so I haven't really given my thoughts on the new patch, so I might as well express one of my thoughts summed up.

I respectfully disagree with the statement that Doctor Mario's Up-B out of shield is overall superior to Mr.Game & Watch's Up-B out of shield. Yes, I am aware that it was strongly buffed, is Frame 3 just like :ultgnw:'s, and is an incredibly strong kill move. But I'd like to pose a question, what is an Out of Shield option primarily used for? It's used to get the pressure off of you, it's your best get-off-me tool.

:ultdoc:'s Up-B is a great kill move if you land the sweetspot that kills extremely early, especially at ledge, is incredibly fast, and also has the bonus of being able to turn it around, unlike most Up-Smashes. However, it has a rather laughable sourspot, puts you in an extremely bad position assuming you whiff or it's baited, and is generally not very good at lower percent ranges, possibly being minus on hit at really low percents.

:ultgnw:'s Up-B is also just as fast as Doctor Mario's, has great range, comboes if they land particularly badly, has invincibility frames during the move, and doesn't even need to turn it around because of the range. The cons of this move are that it doesn't kill like Doctor Mario's Up-B, and if you whiff, it puts you above the opponent. However, G&W is really good at landing with Down Air, mix-up airdodges, fastfalling, fastfall aerials like Neutral Air, if there is platforms he can land on platforms, he could go to ledge as a super mix-up and mess with you with his janky ledge animation.

Consistency in this game is extremely important. :ultdoc:'s Up-B can kill you at 80% at ledge. It can destroy a stock with one mistake from the opponent. Or you hit them at lower perecents and it does nothing or gets you in trouble. Or you get the sourspot and nothing gets done and you're back in disadvantage. Or you whiff it completely because it doesn't have a lot of range and you possibly lose your stock because Doc's recovery is so awful. When you Up-B with :ultgnw: because the scary Arsene man hit you, you don't have to worry about any of those things. If you miss, the worst thing that'll happen most likely is that you'll be above the opponent, with plenty of stage and character options to get back down safely and in a better spot, and a good chunk of the time it overall has better rewards and less risk.

Also :ultsheik: needle kill confrims are sick.
 

Tri Knight

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Aug 10, 2015
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https://youtu.be/cCqn1fm2S1Y

A nice side by side comparison of character changes in case you were interested.

I didn't realize till watching this that one of the best changes to YLink is the combination of his tether and upsmash. Now that the zair comes out faster and upsmash kills earlier, it makes for an extremely potent kill setup. I'm seeing a much scarier looking Young Link.

Lots of gamechangers in general in here! Sheik was another one I'm extremely excited to see. She's looking to take back what Joker stole I think
 
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Ziodyne 21

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I thank :ultdoc: may have more in common with. Ultimate:ultluigi: more now than :ultmario: himself. They both have the same down-b cyclone that is used more for reads or confrims for recovering. Both have an Up-B that can kill really early if you can time it really well
While though other methods can do overall more damage for a neutral exchange than Mario (Luigi with very dangerous combo game and potentual 0-dearh, Doc with his :ultganondorf: level power of single hits) they both have considerabally low mobility and have poor recoveries. Meaning they will can potentially punished fairly severely if they make mistakes
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
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3,203
Slopes Arcade (C Tier) (This event was a week ago, so patch 6.1, and is a 8-man invitational)
1st: BestNess:ultness:
2nd: WaDi:ultrob:
3rd: Elegant:ultluigi:
4th: Nicko:ultshulk:
5th: VoiD:ultsheik::ultjoker:
5th: Lui$:ultfox::ultmario:
7th: Ned:ultjoker:
7th: Pandarian:ultpokemontrainerf:
 

PK Gaming

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Every time the subject of Pit's viability is broached, people always tend to overthink it.

Broadly speaking, a character needs to excel at Damage, KO ability and neutral in order to be good. Pit is lackluster at all 3. It has nothing to do with him being an all-rounder who doesn't excel at anything. Pit's damage isn't impressive, he lacks viable kill setups/strong aerial finishers and his neutral is also lacking due to his poor aerial mobility.

Until the Smash team addresses this, Pit will remain a bad character.
 

FruitLoop

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Dec 31, 2018
Messages
125
Every time the subject of Pit's viability is broached, people always tend to overthink it.

Broadly speaking, a character needs to excel at Damage, KO ability and neutral in order to be good. Pit is lackluster at all 3. It has nothing to do with him being an all-rounder who doesn't excel at anything. Pit's damage isn't impressive, he lacks viable kill setups/strong aerial finishers and his neutral is also lacking due to his poor aerial mobility.

Until the Smash team addresses this, Pit will remain a bad character.
Hmmmm, bad KO ability and no neutral and mediocre damage output? Where have we seen THAT before?

Oh wait, :ultkingdedede:
 

Ziodyne 21

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So, Shulk can completely avoid getting caught by Byleth's up-B just by showing the Monado Dial menu. You don't even need to go into Shield or anything.

Yeah many of Byleths moves or tools do not quite work as they 100% should or have some kind of exploit. For example it is not uncommon (for mostly small) characters to fall out of thier rapid whip-sword jab leaving them open for a big punish.

Lots of pro players seem to like Byleth and they are pretty fun. But right now they have a lot of flaws and holes in their game to be a solo-viable threat at the top-competive level.

The only Top-high tier CP they may be decent for is :ultgnw: and possibly :ultmario: but he can easily stuff and overwhelm Byleth if he gets past the fair/bair range
 

Lacrimosa

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Kirby's popping off.
Jesuischoq with a 2-1 against Glutonny and currently in GF against Glutonny at a C-tier:
https://smash4glory.com/ultimateedition

Glutonny just got the bracket reset on Jesuischoq and Gluto will probably win this, but that's nevertheless an extremely impressive play.
 
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Iron Maw

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Pink Fresh just won a tournament going all Byleth. Didn't lose a single set until Grands where he got bracket reseted by ZD. Won by beating both his Wolf and Fox.

In regards to Pit, I have this odd theory that part of why people think Pit is bad or that he's "not functioning" as a character is that they see his wings and fundamentally misunderstand the type of character he's supposed to be. Whereas they think he's supposed to be an air-based fighter whose nair should be able to cut through opponents, he's actually a ground-based neutral character with movement properties and frame data that facilitate this.

I sort of categorize Byleth and Pit in the same archetype, except that where Byleth has range, Pit has speed. They're front-loaded with effective whiff-punishing tools but suffer from end lag that makes them extra-vulnerable if they predict wrong.
Yeah, it's the same way I felt about Joker. I lot of players seemd to struggle with him in early months of his release because they didn't get he wasn't strictly Sheik 2.0 and that perspective led to think he was weaker than he actually was. Feel like Byleth only Ganondorf with long reach on superficial level and they are archetype a bit more unique then that.
 

Impax

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Kirby's popping off.
Jesuischoq with a 2-1 against Glutonny and currently in GF against Glutonny at a C-tier:
https://smash4glory.com/ultimateedition

Glutonny just got the bracket reset on Jesuischoq and Gluto will probably win this, but that's nevertheless an extremely impressive play.
Jesuischoq has always been a special exception though. Hes just an amazing player.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Broadly speaking, a character needs to excel at Damage, KO ability and neutral in order to be good.
I will point out though that just because a character has all three of these qualities doesn't mean they are any good.

I'm going to throw out :ultdoc: as an example here. Pills, Cape, and his fast-frame data allow him to have a decent enough neutral despite his poor speed, his damage racking capabilities (especially post-patch) are really good, and his KO ability is consistent and really good, especially for a middle-weight character.

Post-patch, I'd argue he's probably a mid to high mid tier (subject to change since this patch has been out for less than a week) but his weaknesses stop him from being able to be a really good high or top tier character.

So, yes, while a good character usually wants to have all three of those attributes, a character with all three of those things isn't necessarily good if his weaknesses are bad enough.

Also,

On an unrelated note, with all of the talk about buffed characters, we really haven't talked about Byleth that much yet.

My personal thoughts on Byleth is that she's really just a lot of gimmicks that are great when they work but are really bad if they don't. She has high range attacks, good hitboxes on most moves, can KO really early, deals a lot of shield damage, and up-b is really good for edgeguarding and comboing if Byleth is in the right spot to land it.

However, Byleth has a lot of weaknesses. Mediocre to terrible frame data on most moves, several moves that are really unsafe on shield, easy to punish if she whiffs an attack, slow ground (and probably air) movement, easy to combo, easy to juggle, can't camp very well, abysmal OOS game, and a lot of her moves just feel somewhat underwhelming in terms of the reward she gets off of them. Her survivability is also less than you would think since she weights the same as Luigi.

In general, I don't think Byleth will have a great MU spread across the cast. She struggles against being camped, characters who can get in her face and abuse her poor close up options, characters who can trap her in shield, characters who can abuse her in disadvantage, and characters with disjoints like her. :ultlink::ultpichu::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsnake: and :ultpikachu: seem like they might be among her worst matchups since they can all abuse her weaknesses so well that she can't really do much of anything.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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Jul 9, 2015
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However, Byleth has a lot of weaknesses. Mediocre to terrible frame data on most moves, several moves that are really unsafe on shield, easy to punish if she whiffs an attack, slow ground (and probably air) movement, easy to combo, easy to juggle, can't camp very well, abysmal OOS game, and a lot of her moves just feel somewhat underwhelming in terms of the reward she gets off of them. Her survivability is also less than you would think since she weights the same as Luigi.

In general, I don't think Byleth will have a great MU spread across the cast. She struggles against being camped, characters who can get in her face and abuse her poor close up options, characters who can trap her in shield, characters who can abuse her in disadvantage, and characters with disjoints like her. :ultlink::ultpichu::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsnake: and :ultpikachu: seem like they might be among her worst matchups since they can all abuse her weaknesses so well that she can't really do much of anything.
the byleth train in a matter of days went from overly pessimistic to overly optimistic. you can thank zer0 and his audience and pink fresh performance and mk leo stream results for that. byleth mu chart in the coming months is going to be so varied she will have 6-4 mu's against her and have 6-4 mu's in her favor. i do think pikachu will be miserable for her as will snake and peach. but bowser and other large heavies are gonna hate byleth. really doubt the character is higher than mid tier but unlike bajo, this character seems to be carving out a playerbase.
 

Ziodyne 21

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the byleth train in a matter of days went from overly pessimistic to overly optimistic. you can thank zer0 and his audience and pink fresh performance and mk leo stream results for that. byleth mu chart in the coming months is going to be so varied she will have 6-4 mu's against her and have 6-4 mu's in her favor. i do think pikachu will be miserable for her as will snake and peach. but bowser and other large heavies are gonna hate byleth. really doubt the character is higher than mid tier but unlike bajo, this character seems to be carving out a playerbase.

The issue is that Byleth may have too many very poor MU's in the top tiers to be a solo-viable character at top-level play , and as for a Counterpick against top-high tiers is maybe :ultgnw: , I thought maybe :ultmario: but that MU is going to be even at worst. I mean its the early :ultganondorf: situation where hype from very flashy looking moves that can kill super-early does only goes so far (though I do think Byleth is much better than Gannon)

I do not think there had been too many posts about Byleth tier predictions. My guess is he/she is going to be mid-tier at best, maybe sitting somewhere in the top half of it
 
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Nate1080

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I’d be shocked if Byleth ends up mid tier. They feel like a low tier character to me.

Good power and range, but suffers from very poor movement, bad frame data and mediocre moves. Byleth feels like most super heavyweights in this game without the weight, just like Ridley and that’s horrible.

I get that Byleth is supposed to be whiff punishing and not pressing buttons needlessly, but even then...there’s better characters in this game to play at doing that. I see no need to make the game harder to play for no added benefit.


I have no idea why some popular players think this character is going to be good.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
but bowser and other large heavies are gonna hate byleth.
I'm not actually sure about Bowser in this MU but it might not actually be that bad for Bowser?

The fact that he can't really edgeguard against Byleth due to the risk definitely hurts him, but there are other factors that make me think that that matchup may not be that bad for Bowser.

1. Bowser is great at punishing Byleth's moves since she is a character who has worse frame-data and speed than him.
2. Byleth doesn't really have any good options OOS meaning that Bowser will get a lot out of pressuring her shield in this matchup.
3. Bowser can attack through her rapid jab because of tough guy.
4. Byleth doesn't really have any good options to stop Bowser's approach with f-air since most of the attacks that are ideal for stopping him are kind of slow.
5. Bowser moves faster than Byleth meaning that he can chase her if she runs away.
6. Byleth will die earlier to Bowser than he does to her.
7. Byleth is fairly easy to combo.
8. Byleth can't pressure Bowser's shield with d-air (one of her better shield breaking options) since up-b OOS exists.

The biggest issue I see for Bowser in this MU is recovering and getting off the ledge. Him getting comboed and juggled sucks, but Byleth doesn't really have any good finishers out of her combos that would kill him below 100% (outside of maybe n-air near the top blastzone, but the ladder combo doesn't work on Bowser so I don't really think that's a huge issue).

I'm not saying this is a winning MU for Bowser, but I can realistically see it being even to be honest.

The rest of the super-heavyweights are probably winning MUs for Byleth and I expect that :ultincineroar::ultdk: and :ultganondorf: matchups verses Byleth to be really bad. :ultkrool: and :ultkingdedede: might not be as bad, but I don't see those matchups being any better than slightly losing for both of them.

:ultcharizard: might fall into a similar camp to Bowser where the MU isn't all that bad due to his speed and range, but I don't think that matters as much since he's part of :ultpokemontrainer: and PT as a whole probably wins the MU.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
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I think the attributes that determine character strength are actually more like this:
  1. Damage ratio (high reward relative to risk). Having a lukewarm advantage state is fine if you can pair it with a very strong disadvantage because that tilts the ratio of damage taken per interaction to damage doled in your favor
  2. KO accessibility (mix of confirms, edgeguards and raw KO moves)
  3. Neutral mixups
  4. Smooth transitions out of neutral (meaning that you don't have to start using weird moves in neutral to get your rewarding combos or kills; just use moves already good in neutral)
These four categories are strictly tied to strength in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral, and at the core of all three game states is the top-tier attribute we know as mobility.

Mobility affects every game state. Bad air mobility means that it's harder to recover, harder to avoid juggles, harder to juggle others, harder to edgeguard, and harder to go for mixups in neutral. Bad ground mobility means that it's harder to landing trap, ledgetrap, zone, and anti-zone. Basically everything you do in smash depends directly on your mobility. It's not like "weight" or "endlag," which only matter in a handful of situations. Mobility matters everywhere, all the time, from beginning to end of a match.

Doc's the perfect example to illustrate this. Top-tier frame data, edgeguarding tools, KO power, high-damage moves, a reflector, a projectile, mixups--he seems to have it all, but then he's just too slow, so he ends up being bad, or at best mediocre.

Here's what his slowness means for the four parameters at the top:
  1. His damage ratio is average. He does tons of damage, but because of his poor air mobility, he gets edgeguarded a lot, and on stage he gets juggled despite a beautifully stitched-together disadvantage kit (Doc's on-stage disadvantage would be gamebreaking on any character with decent airspeed).
  2. He's got tons of KO moves, but they're not readily accessible--without a good way to get in range to use them, or trick people into hitting his shield with a wayward aerial so that he can up-b OOS, he still has trouble killing when he's behind despite having, in some circumstances, raw KO power that could make Ganon blush.
  3. Limited ground and air mobility means that even if Doc has 6 different options in a given neutral situation, you can cover most of them just by spacing a moving disjoint like a pivot Lucina f-tilt. That's not good mixup coverage.
  4. To Doc's credit, his transitions from neutral to advantage are pretty good, especially after this patch. Air mobility again limits how far he can push his juggle and string game, but this is his best area for sure.
 
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TimG57867

Smash Ace
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Aug 27, 2015
Messages
510
Welp if there still any doubt, then after today I think it's all but clear that :ultkirby: was the big 6.0 patch winner in terms of impact on competitive standing.

Getting 2nd at a C Tier with an upset on Glutonny (who admittedly wasn't on his A game in that set as Jesuischoq told us on Discord later) as well as wins on a lot of France's strongest players in VinS, Oryon, and Leon (who have all played and beaten Jesuischoq before btw) is stupendous enough. But when you actually watch the games closely you actually see a lot of the 2.0, 3.0, and 6.0 buffs that Kirby has been accumulating actually show their impact.

I am catching up on watching the various sets and just 2 games into his set with Leon's :ultlucina: I can easily see previous improvements in full display. Jesuichoq ended game 1 with a tipper hit of Up Smash that wouldn't have killed without 6.0's KB buff to the sourspot tipper. And then in Game 2 I see him score another early Up Smash kill which was thanks to a combination of 3.0 extending the sweetspot duration and 6.0's KB buff for the tipper and he ends the game with a low comittment F-Tilt kill courtesy of 2.0. Even now the benefits of various patches are showing for Kirby at high/top level play. Edit: Upon watching his set with VinS's :ultlink: I noticed a an interaction where he was able to shield Link's N-Air and then an Up Smash from Link not long after. If that had been a pre-7.0 shield Jesuichoq would almost certainly have been shield poked. Even 7.0's QoL changes got put on display at this tournament! Really shows how Kirby has slowly but surely been crawling his way towards becoming a more consistent character. Shield poking was massive problem for him prior to the shield buff.

Along with all that Ferretkuma managed to get 7th/154 at at a deceptively competitive tournament that had a few rather strong names present. T was at this tournament and got 4th.

I am now really hoping Komota can make some headway at the upcoming Frostbite. Kirby's 2020 is off to a surprisingly good start and I'd love to see this momentum continue.
 
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KirbySquad101

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Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
There's a ton of potential major winners from this patch from the sounds of things; I would like to throw my hat in the ring myself and advocate that :ultcloud: might've been among the biggest of winners. Or rather, his buffs might have the biggest impact on our current meta.

FSmash connecting better is a nice QoL change, though as far as QoL changes go, it's minimal in its impact; FSmash's problem was moreso that it was high in both start-up and endlag, which made it major high risk/high reward type attack. It's a move that's rarely used, but in the case that it is used, the change will definitely help in its consistency.

The bigger meat and potatoes in my opinion comes from his four changes; to start off with the smaller stuff, Climhazzard have its ledge grab time cut down by four frames may not seem that big, but its impact can easily be best demonstrated in this clip:

In other words, the amount of leeway he gives the opponent to 2-frame is much less disproportionately bad relative to the cast, and much more in line with... say, a teleport ledge grab. Beyond having a recovery that went little distance, even if he could make it back to the ledge, you not only had to worry about what ledge trapping your opponent had planned, but also if you could live long enough at the ledge to experience it. In the grand scheme, this is probably the least impactful of his "big buffs", but an important one nonetheless.

Dash attack and up smash - on the other hand - is where things start to get interesting. Up smash getting a 3 frame reduction on its start-up gives Cloud another decent (although situational) OoS that's not just Climhazzard; more importantly, however, the move was already massive in its range, both horizontal and vertically. Having a 3 frame reduction on such an attack now pits it at a generous total 45 frame duration (the exact same as Kirby's USmash funny enough), and with coverage as good as it, your opponent now has to be wary of three things: Its immense coverage, its relatively short duration, and thanks to the buff I'll be going into next, it's actually, like, SCARY powerful now. It won't incite the same levels of fear as something as noncommittal as :ultgnw:'s USmash, but such a powerful combination of attributes (on someone so fast no less) will condition your opponent to play around it enough that it could potentially play towards Cloud's advantage.

Dash attack and up smash getting knockback buffs, however, are crucial to alleviating one of Cloud's most problematic hurdles: While he had a very solid neutral thanks to a powerful combination of speed, range, damage output, and good defensive options, the advantage he would get off of such a strong neutral would quickly diminish as the opponent's percentage would increase. In other words, Cloud REALLY struggled to take stocks off the opponent at percents below 120%; if he wasn't relying on his (probably badly staled) back aerial to deliver the finishing blow, he needed a Limit Cross Slash to bail him out, which in of itself, came with his own drawbacks. His other KO moves suffered either from having below-average knockback (FTilt, DSmash), being hard to land (DAir) or just being very slow and situational (FSmash, Finishing Touch). Dash attack and USmash, however, give Cloud some of the best burst options he suffered hard from: Both attacks have great coverage, are disjointed, (in the case of dash attack) can 2-frame, have respectable start-up, have strong enough KO power that doesn't force Cloud to over-rely on his BAir or FTilt for taking stocks, and most importantly, are mapped to one of the most agile characters in the game. They come with their own drawbacks, but that's negligible when considering the two big things to come from this: 1. Cloud actually has kill power outside of a few selective options, and 2. The opponent has to be wary of it, and play around it.

A faster Limit Charge, to me, is the cherry-on-top that helps accentuate this positives further: Having a faster Limit Charge grants Cloud access to his kill options WAY earlier, provides him with more opportunities to recovery via Limit Climhazzard, lets Cloud benefit far more from deciding not to go for a risky edgeguard, and on top of everything else, forces a much greater incentive to approach by the opponent. Every time Cloud starts charging now, he's going to be getting way more meter off of it then he ever has even when he has to cancel it prematurely. When the opponent's in disadvantage, he'll gain way more. When the opponent is Star KO'd he almost gets a full bar from that. Limit Charge Cloud can be a neutral monster and was also one of the only times he was actually threatening at high percents (before the other buffs anyway); opponents are incentivized far more to make the first move, because the more they wait, the more they're losing for it.

:ultcloud: was already a character who had a good handful of even-to-winning match-ups against top/high tier threats like :ultmario::ultpacman::ultmegaman::ultgnw::ultlucina::ultpalutena::ultpeach: and :ultzss:, and had a handful of decent results (I think he was ranked #28 on OrionStats previously?). With these buffs, there's a huge chance he can skyrocket even further, and I'm fairly optimistic about where he's headed, despite some of his glaring weaknesses being left in tact (poor grab game being the most blaring one). However, when I say his buffs could have the biggest impact out of any character buffed, I don't just mean character buffs, but the effect of said buffs on competitive players.

To put it simply, Cloud players, for the most part, are very excited about these changes, and there's quite a bit of Buster Swords being drawn once again, not just from the players who decided to stick with him till the end, but from those that initially left him behind. Mr. R has expressed interest in picking him up as a secondary, Cheeks has gone back to using him again, YOC is planning on dropping Joker for Cloud, and even Tweek has been giving him another shot at locals, and while he won't most likely have staying power there (especially when Tweek is currently using :ultwario:), it's interesting seeing just how much hope has been rejuvenated in the playerbase, especially about a character who's negativity surrounding him rivaled that of :ultfalcon:. Sparg0 in particular - who has been pretty vocal about his opinions towards Cloud - has been far more positive about the character ever since the buffs, and has even admitted to believing that he's a high tier now.

Even if Cloud's buffs don't turn out to be the best on a technical level, I can honestly see him getting the biggest rise in results out of any winner this patch.

==============================================================================================

Major good stuff to Jesuischoq for almost winning a C Tier event as :ultkirby:. From what I've seen, Kirby has had the biggest success out of any buffed character from patch 6.0.0 (besides :ultrobin:, although that's moreso because he was already a fairly decent character before the buffs), which is especially funny because he usually ends up ranked the worst out of all six buffed characters (MKLeo's on the right track putting him above :ultjigglypuff:, though).

================================================================================================

EDIT: Just as I speak highly of him, Sparg0 already wins a C Tier using solo Cloud: https://smash.gg/tournament/get-in-...ents/ultimate-singles/brackets/714932/1156095

Even better, he only dropped 2 games his entire run.
 
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Nobie

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Byleth is getting compared to Ganondorf a lot, and while it makes sense on the surface (powerful but held back by poor mobility), I think it's not quite an apt comparison.

In my view, Ganondorf is a character who has to be fairly active. He throws out jabs, f-tilts, fairs, and nairs in neutral at semi-close range in order to scare opponents. He really doesn't have any fast moves (his fastest, jab is a slow frame 7), but he has a lot of power and shield stun, so he can bully people if they start to get too afraid of his power. For the most part, he has mobility issues, with a couple of special moves that can close the distance with the right read (side b, down b).

Byleth, however, I find to be a much more reactive and passive character. They're slow, which can make it difficult to close the gap (especially against faster characters), but Byleth's goal is not to catch all the way up to the opponent; it's to get just close enough that Byleth's lance attacks can be threatening.

"But the lance is slow" you might say. "It lacks vertical range outside of side b." That's where f-tilt and u-tilt come into play. F-tilt is frame 8 (same as Lucina's), is a huge disjoint (bigger than what a lot of swordsmen can do), and can KO at high percents. U-tilt is frame 9 (decent speed), covers a huge arc, and KOs at high percents. If you're at f-smash/side b range and you try to close in with the expectation that you'll stuff it in time, there might be a sword swipe waiting for you. If you stand outside of Byleth's f-tilt range, you might just get stabbed by f-smash. If you manage to get all the way up close, Byleth is probably in trouble, but a frame 4 jab and frame 6 grab are...okayish.

To put it differently, I think Byleth pressures opponents almost entirely through positioning and feints. Their attacks are not designed to just be thrown out to take up space, because they're often quite punishable on block or miss. Rather, they're designed to basically whiff punish at multiple ranges in a way that most characters can't (because most characters don't have attacks that can reach at such drastic distances without it being some sort of movement option). Even the bow and arrow seems to facilitate this. The ability to pull it out and then cancel it quickly puts on passive pressure, and all it takes is a moment where the opponent mistakenly expects Byleth to put away the bow only to get knocked off stage and get forced into a ledge trap situation.

I don't think Byleth has quite what it takes to be a top tier, but I think that the character will end up doing surprisingly okay in certain matchups that you might think are extremely biased against Byleth. There's something about the ability to vary the range at which Byleth can threaten opponents that makes me feel this way.
 
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meleebrawler

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I will point out though that just because a character has all three of these qualities doesn't mean they are any good.

I'm going to throw out :ultdoc: as an example here. Pills, Cape, and his fast-frame data allow him to have a decent enough neutral despite his poor speed, his damage racking capabilities (especially post-patch) are really good, and his KO ability is consistent and really good, especially for a middle-weight character.

Post-patch, I'd argue he's probably a mid to high mid tier (subject to change since this patch has been out for less than a week) but his weaknesses stop him from being able to be a really good high or top tier character.

So, yes, while a good character usually wants to have all three of those attributes, a character with all three of those things isn't necessarily good if his weaknesses are bad enough.

Also,

On an unrelated note, with all of the talk about buffed characters, we really haven't talked about Byleth that much yet.

My personal thoughts on Byleth is that she's really just a lot of gimmicks that are great when they work but are really bad if they don't. She has high range attacks, good hitboxes on most moves, can KO really early, deals a lot of shield damage, and up-b is really good for edgeguarding and comboing if Byleth is in the right spot to land it.

However, Byleth has a lot of weaknesses. Mediocre to terrible frame data on most moves, several moves that are really unsafe on shield, easy to punish if she whiffs an attack, slow ground (and probably air) movement, easy to combo, easy to juggle, can't camp very well, abysmal OOS game, and a lot of her moves just feel somewhat underwhelming in terms of the reward she gets off of them. Her survivability is also less than you would think since she weights the same as Luigi.

In general, I don't think Byleth will have a great MU spread across the cast. She struggles against being camped, characters who can get in her face and abuse her poor close up options, characters who can trap her in shield, characters who can abuse her in disadvantage, and characters with disjoints like her. :ultlink::ultpichu::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsnake: and :ultpikachu: seem like they might be among her worst matchups since they can all abuse her weaknesses so well that she can't really do much of anything.
:ultlink: I'm not sure where this particular Link being one of Byleth's toughest comes from. Of the three he has the weakest camp game, slowest mobility and frame data, both of which are only slightly better than Byleth's. He might ledgetrap the latter something fierce, but :ultyounglink: and especially :ulttoonlink: seem much harder (I'll get to Toon Link's point later).

:ultroy::ultchrom: I feel like you are confusing these for :ultmarth::ultlucina:. While Roy and Chrom can definitely overwhelm Byleth up close if given the chance, they suffer an understated problem in neutral via their rather commital movement specs, that both makes it harder for them to bait Byleth into doing something unsafe and easier to predict and keep out. They're also not good enough at edgeguarding to consistently take advantage of Byleth's recovery, and Chrom especially can suffer from fsmash or dsmash 2-frames if he has to up b. Marth and Lucina take advantage of Byleth's weaknesses way better.

:ultsnake: Surprisingly, camping isn't that simple for Snake against Byleth. Arrows can easily slip past grenades and just generally disrupt ranged setups by forcing Snake to move or shield. He can just crouch or use Nikita missiles to deal with them, but that mostly just results in a stalemate at best where Byleth has time to get in the favoured mid-range position. So Snake usually has to leverage his CQC to get the upper hand in neutral, but he can't quite put out pressure that way consistently like true specialists do, giving Byleth more opportunities to fight back, and his range has the bonus of often avoiding grenade payback. Snake's advantage state against Byleth is still strong enough to give him the edge, but it's surprisingly manageable otherwise.

:ultpikachu::ultpichu: Are obviously quite bad for Byleth, for one simple reason: he utterly hates short characters with a passion. They are an utter pain to hit both on the ground and in thin air with lance attacks... if there is a single matchup that :ultkirby: does best in, it's Byleth. Dude just crouches almost everything and is fast enough on the ground with enough proficiency with combos to severely punish. However, the difficulties in fighting characters like this and others who like to blitz with ground mobility to punish by sticking to platforms, forcing them to use their slower air mobility to get Byleth and giving him more openings as a result.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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I would also say :ultfox::ultinkling::ultwario: are going to also be really rough for Byleth. Since there fast and speedy pressure is something they have no real tools to deal with.

Zoners with multiple projectile options or setups like :ultyounglink::ultpacman: will also give issues. A
also while Byleth can play the passive and patient game well enough yes, but what happens when they do not have that luxury?

In many top competitive level relevant MU's Byleth is going to have a dreadful time when they find themselves playing behind or from a stock deficit. They have very limited ways of approaching safely, with no burst mobility options to help. Some characters can easily just dodge and weave around there options and they do not have to even consider playing the game Byleth wants to play
 
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BlackInk

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What I find really shocking with Byelth is that they have the laggiest moves in the game and the developers thought the proper way of “balancing” their kit even more by also giving them the worst possible mobility they could ever give to a disjoint character (both in the air and the ground). They are in fact slower than Snake and the majority of the zoners and projectile characters in the game who have much faster moves. What were they thinking when they made Byelth?
 
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Idon

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What I find really shocking with Byelth is that they have the laggiest moves in the game and the developers thought the proper way of “balancing” their kit even more by also giving them the worst possible mobility they could ever give to a disjoint character (both in the air and the ground). They are in fact slower than Snake and the majority of the zoners and projectile characters in the game who have much faster moves. What were they thinking when they made Byelth?
Probably something along the lines of "This move is gonna be ****ing cool when it lands in a group of 7 other guys"
 
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Terotrous

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Finally got around to playing a bunch of Byleth tonight so it's time for some super late impressions!

In general, I sort of like the design of the character, as some people mentioned with Banjo, it's kind of nice to have a DLC character that just feels like they fit in with the game, rather than having a ton of weird gimmicks. Despite often being compared to Ganon, I also feel like she feels quite unique, which is nice. That being said, I feel like Byleth has some very significant faults and that's generally kind of a no-no in this game when it comes to viability.

For starters, despite being a character who wants to punish aggression with well spaced buttons that do a ton of damage, I feel Byleth really has no way to force approaches. Neutral B I feel is a tremendously overrated move, largely because you have no control whatsoever over when you fire the arrow. Sure, you can choose not to fire by cancelling the initial animation, but you cannot vary the arrow release timing at all, which makes it almost trivial to parry, and makes it effectively impossible to snipe recoveries with it. I think the gimmick is supposed to be that the opponent wants to rush you down when they see you preparing an arrow (and you can then cancel with jump or whatever else and intercept them), but they really have no reason to be aggressive since it's so easy to parry or jump over. Just parry the arrow, then retaliate with your own projectile, which will hit Byleth before she can shoot a second arrow, god forbid if you have a projectile that can be fired air to ground (ie, bombs, turnips, mario fireball, etc), in which case just pull your projectile out during the charge, jump the arrow, and toss it at her to instantly win neutral. Also, the fully charged version is terrible, I don't think there's ever a situation where you'd use it in 1v1. It's completely trivial to run towards Byleth, jump the arrow, and then hit her during recovery the moment you see the full charge coming out, since the moment you hold the button even a frame past the initial shot you're fully committed to it. So IMO, you really don't have to respect her projectile game at all, if you've got any projectiles yourself Byleth is the one doing the approaching.

Secondly, I feel like Byleth's disadvantage state is among the worst in the game. She has a hideous combination of terrible air mobility and extremely laggy aerials that make landing on stage nearly impossible vs any character who has speed or range. Her down B is also not a reliable "get off me" tool as the super armor takes a while to start up, I was hit out of it pretty much every time I tried to use it this way. Thankfully, her recovery is fairly decent, having both absurd vertical range and also being somewhat risky to edgeguard, because if you go out there to hit her she can go low and try to grab you with the chain, and if you're at mid to high percents you just die. So basically every time I got put into disadvantage, I just always went to ledge. Of course, her options for getting off ledge aren't great either, but it's better than losing a full stock before you can get your feet on the ground again.

She does have some strengths of course. FSmash is actually much better than I expected, if spaced well it's fairly tough for most characters to punish, and fair and bair are also both decent moves as long as you make sure to get the autocancel. As previously mentioned, I also think her recovery is surprisingly decent, which I didn't expect for a character with such poor air mobility, and her edgeguarding capability is actually fairly strong. If you can find a way to get the lead and start to force approaches or get into advantage state, she can look decent, but it can also go bad pretty quickly if she gets put into disadvantage.

Overall, I'm a little skeptical of her viability, I feel like she probably has some extremely bad matchups that might be fairly easy to counterpick to, and generally, it seems like the characters that she wouldn't do well against are also the ones who are generally strong in this game. Being weak to fast characters with strong advantage state or characters with good projectiles isn't a great look in Ultimate.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Hmmmm, bad KO ability and no neutral and mediocre damage output? Where have we seen THAT before?

Oh wait, :ultkingdedede:
Heavies are bound to have bad neutral. They do have good KO ability, yet landing them is quite hard. Damage output is great, but no neutral, bad mobility and low potential for combos makes this worth all but naught.

In Smash its quite simple honestly, either you combo, or are combo food. There's subtle mixes between this, but these characters aren't as good as the big combo heavy ones. Unless you're Snake, but Snake has a whole lot of other bull**** going for him.
 

PK Gaming

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I think the attributes that determine character strength are actually more like this:
  1. Damage ratio (high reward relative to risk). Having a lukewarm advantage state is fine if you can pair it with a very strong disadvantage because that tilts the ratio of damage taken per interaction to damage doled in your favor
  2. KO accessibility (mix of confirms, edgeguards and raw KO moves)
  3. Neutral mixups
  4. Smooth transitions out of neutral (meaning that you don't have to start using weird moves in neutral to get your rewarding combos or kills; just use moves already good in neutral)
These four categories are strictly tied to strength in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral, and at the core of all three game states is the top-tier attribute we know as mobility.

Mobility affects every game state. Bad air mobility means that it's harder to recover, harder to avoid juggles, harder to juggle others, harder to edgeguard, and harder to go for mixups in neutral. Bad ground mobility means that it's harder to landing trap, ledgetrap, zone, and anti-zone. Basically everything you do in smash depends directly on your mobility. It's not like "weight" or "endlag," which only matter in a handful of situations. Mobility matters everywhere, all the time, from beginning to end of a match.

Doc's the perfect example to illustrate this. Top-tier frame data, edgeguarding tools, KO power, high-damage moves, a reflector, a projectile, mixups--he seems to have it all, but then he's just too slow, so he ends up being bad, or at best mediocre.

Here's what his slowness means for the four parameters at the top:
  1. His damage ratio is average. He does tons of damage, but because of his poor air mobility, he gets edgeguarded a lot, and on stage he gets juggled despite a beautifully stitched-together disadvantage kit (Doc's on-stage disadvantage would be gamebreaking on any character with decent airspeed).
  2. He's got tons of KO moves, but they're not readily accessible--without a good way to get in range to use them, or trick people into hitting his shield with a wayward aerial so that he can up-b OOS, he still has trouble killing when he's behind despite having, in some circumstances, raw KO power that could make Ganon blush.
  3. Limited ground and air mobility means that even if Doc has 6 different options in a given neutral situation, you can cover most of them just by spacing a moving disjoint like a pivot Lucina f-tilt. That's not good mixup coverage.
  4. To Doc's credit, his transitions from neutral to advantage are pretty good, especially after this patch. Air mobility again limits how far he can push his juggle and string game, but this is his best area for sure.
This post should probably be saved for future reference since it conceptualizes what makes a character "good" in an easy to understand way. Ofc we don't want to end up with people obsessively relying on it, but it seems like a good resource for beginner theorycrafters
 

meleebrawler

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I would also say :ultfox::ultinkling::ultwario: are going to also be really rough for Byleth. Since there fast and speedy pressure is something they have no real tools to deal with.

Zoners with multiple projectile options or setups like :ultyounglink::ultpacman: will also give issues. A
also while Byleth can play the passive and patient game well enough yes, but what happens when they do not have that luxury?

In many top competitive level relevant MU's Byleth is going to have a dreadful time when they find themselves playing behind or from a stock deficit. They have very limited ways of approaching safely, with no burst mobility options to help. Some characters can easily just dodge and weave around there options and they do not have to even consider playing the game Byleth wants to play
Well, yes, but there is something to be said about the "optimal" way to play versus Byleth that can be off-putting for players regardless of how easy the matchup is on paper.

An Inkling I ran into online didn't give me as hard of a time as you'd expect, because of a tendency to try and go ham with back aerials. Maybe this worked well on other slow or big-bodied characters (frame is something else you have to consider with weight), but for Byleth it was just more opportunities to stuff them with lance hits. Had the Inkling just not committed to doing anything before an unsafe whiff it might have played out differently, but most likely the player was unused or unwilling to playing that way.
 

Lacrimosa

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Heavies are bound to have bad neutral. They do have good KO ability, yet landing them is quite hard. Damage output is great, but no neutral, bad mobility and low potential for combos makes this worth all but naught.

In Smash its quite simple honestly, either you combo, or are combo food. There's subtle mixes between this, but these characters aren't as good as the big combo heavy ones. Unless you're Snake, but Snake has a whole lot of other bull**** going for him.
Bowser also has a decent neutral.
 

Diddy Kong

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Bowser also has a decent neutral.
Decent for his archetype yes. He's a grappler done right in Smash, because he has great mobility and fast attacks and just about every move can land a KO. Great air speed to make things work as well. But him being huge, punishable and overall combo food means he's High Tier, and not Top Tier, like Snake.

What I find really shocking with Byelth is that they have the laggiest moves in the game and the developers thought the proper way of “balancing” their kit even more by also giving them the worst possible mobility they could ever give to a disjoint character (both in the air and the ground). They are in fact slower than Snake and the majority of the zoners and projectile characters in the game who have much faster moves. What were they thinking when they made Byelth?
They wanted to get rid of the typical "Sword Lord" archetype. Which ironically never resulted in great characters competitive-wise. Ike and Robin speak to mind, they where designed to be everything Marth is not. All the Fire Emblem top tiers currently have been based off Marth. Byleth also took a different approach, and ironically would've been a lot better if all the moves where based on the Sword of Creator. It has huge range, and thus would make the slower Relics unnecessary if they choose to make the whipsword her gimmick. We could have long reach and zoning capacities with Byleth with just her own weapon. Everything could've been like U Air, F Tilt and U Smash, and Byleth would've been a far better character.
 
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SwagGuy99

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:ultpikachu::ultpichu: Are obviously quite bad for Byleth, for one simple reason: he utterly hates short characters with a passion. They are an utter pain to hit both on the ground and in thin air with lance attacks... if there is a single matchup that :ultkirby: does best in, it's Byleth. Dude just crouches almost everything and is fast enough on the ground with enough proficiency with combos to severely punish. However, the difficulties in fighting characters like this and others who like to blitz with ground mobility to punish by sticking to platforms, forcing them to use their slower air mobility to get Byleth and giving him more openings as a result.
I agree. Short characters are bad for Byleth. For example, look at this hitbox.

Byleth's f-smash (when not angled down) is able to be ducked under by a lot of characters. :ultpichu::ultluigi::ultkirby::ultjigglypuff::ultgnw::ultwiifittrainer::ultsquirtle::ultmario::ultdoc: all have fairly short crouches that can go right underneath Byleth's f-smash and it has more than enough endlag to be punished. Many of Byleth's other attacks have long disjointed hitboxes, yes, but a lot of them are able to be avoided by small characters. Up-smash, f-air, b-air, up-air, and neutral-b are all going to have trouble hitting small, short characters and that'll be a problem since a lot of them can punish those moves if they miss.
 
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Lacrimosa

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It's kinda telling when I can effectively avoid Byleth as Zelda by not even using the Phantom.
Not really afraid of their fAir or anything that Araedbhar does. Crouching or simply running past them also works.
Their juggling is good but that's really about it. Byleth really feels underwhelming as an opponent, but this may bite me when their meta developed a bit.

But for now, I don't know how they want to approach even slower chars like Robin, or Zelda (both also have projectiles) or force approaches. Maybe they can force approaches on Ganon...
Not really convinced that they're good. A bad projectile (easy to reflect and to avoid in general), slow aerials with very precise hitboxes, slow grounded attacks and a really linear recovery due to its tether property. They get ledgetrapped for days thanks to their mobilty and no move that gets them out there.

I don't know how Sakurai thinks this character needs to be played but yeah, they don't feel to good.
 

Diddy Kong

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New DLC characters are prone to patches. I do think Byleth will probably get some significant buffs later on. I think power and hitbox buffs are likely to happen. It's the only thing that would help her with this moveset. Byleth desperately needs stuff like a Lucina / Chrom / Ike F Air. Or a N Air like the Marth "Sword Lord" archetype. Even Robin got standard sword swipes for aerials that really help them out despite their mobility issues. Areadbahr needs to stay out longer as active hitbox, come out faster, have a bigger tipper (seriously it's a huge lance, makes no sense it has the same tipper hitbox as Marth's Falchion) and probably be better at shield to really be effective. Amyr and Failnaught are gonna be as situational as they are, nothing can really safe these attacks on a substantial level.

Byleth will simply suffer this game for not being enough like Marth and that overall archetype.
 

Terotrous

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I feel like the only thing Byleth needs to be good is that neutral B needs to be better. If she could force approaches effectively, her gameplan would probably work fine. For example, imagine Byleth had Charge Shot or Thoron. Suddenly you have to go in and now those big hitboxes are scary. If you could charge neutral B to full and then save the shot for later, the character is instantly terrifying. Imagine the shield break setups.

Of course, I doubt they'll actually drastically rework neutral B, we haven't really seen such major reworks to characters happen through patches, if anything that's a change for the next game. However, I feel like even just cutting some time off the initial arrow shot would be a pretty significant upgrade. Then you could effectively shoot some jump shots and such and it'd be much easier to snipe recoveries. You'd still get outcamped by characters with very good projectiles but at least you could fight back to some degree. This is the kind of buff I could actually see happening, too.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Well I mean be can try to see Top-High Tier Byleth may actullay do good against. The only one I can think of is maybe :ultgnw:. Due to him stuggling in general with big disjoints and that he will die really,really early vs Byleths strongest attacks.
Byleth can also possibly deal well with G&W up-b since she has the range to be able to hit his sheild without having to worry about being hit by it.

Samsora was musing about picking up Byelth just for the G&W counterpick seeing as that MU has been the bane of his existence
 
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