Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rhus]

not getting poked by almost anything after the first hit on his shield is a pretty huge boon to MUs like , and to an extent .

It will serve him well to have this important bugfix as his shield was abysmal prior to the patch. For one of smash's most frail characters, a better shield is...welcome, to say the least.

 

[Arthur97]

A couple fun Byleth discoveries:

If you use Down B at the ledge, it won't get stuck in the ground. This means it doesn't cause a shockwave, but it also recovers about 10 frames sooner

Kirby's version of Neutral B does 41% or so damage—more than Byleth's own 34%.

Kirby actually has a 1.2x multiplier on most copied moves in Ultimate. I think Monado Arts are an exception as I think they are actually weaker. As to why, I guess maybe to make up for the risk of getting an inhale combined with the ability to lose the ability as well as generally worse range with a lot of them.

 

[Thinkaman]

Kirby's version of Neutral B does 41% or so damage—more than Byleth's own 34%.

This is true of all Kirby copy abilities in Ultimate. (It's also something we did in BBrawl! )

Kirby actually has a 1.2x multiplier on most copied moves in Ultimate. I think Monado Arts are an exception as I think they are actually weaker. As to why, I guess maybe to make up for the risk of getting an inhale combined with the ability to lose the ability as well as generally worse range with a lot of them.

Yeah, exactly.

I think Kirby Monado has the same ratios, but interact awkwardly with his jumps + Jump doesn't boost up-b. That said, it might still be the best Copy move in the game, just due to how much knockback modifications can boost his combo game.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This is true of all Kirby copy abilities in Ultimate. (It's also something we did in BBrawl! )

Balance Brawl?

 

[Lacrimosa]

A pro that says Kirby is better than Puff

He isn't wrong in my eyes.
Kirby has a very solid ground game with his tilt, a decent recovery but nearly every char does and Kirby has aerials that can kill. He still has his struggles, of course.
Puff's edgeguarding might be good but it's hard for Puff to even get the opponent here and recoveries in Ultimate are mostly great (even someone like Bowser or Rool have a good recovery). Her game is played in midair because her ground-game is bad at best and a lot of characters have decent anti-airs (not only swordies). I can see Kirby being ranked above Puff but both aren#t that great but the buffs made Kirby fun to play again.

 

[DJ3DS]

Yeah, Puff is honestly terrible.

In a game where so many characters have low-lag, disjointed aerials she really struggles to do anything in neutral with her stubby fair and Nair. bair is better, but the turnaround ruins the move.

Beyond that, as a character she fundamentally struggles with shield pressure. She can't break it with pound, and she has nothing in her grab game to deter you using it either.

Neutral woes aside, then comes killing. Puff sucks at it. Her strength is meant to be edgeguarding, and while she is very good at the horizontal aspect of that she is bad at covering vertical movement due to her floatiness and low jumps. With how strong recoveries are, this makes it difficult (though her Nair is amazing with how long it lingers). Rest? Everyone got excited about a couple of new confirms into it but it is still difficult to pull off against anyone who has the foreknowledge to watch out for each of the confirms.

Meanwhile, Puff is dying extremely early. She's also got a somewhat frustrating disadvantage in the sense that her floatiness makes landing hard unless you retreat to the ledge, which comes with its own problems.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Thinkaman]

Balance Brawl?

Yeah, me and Amazing Ampharos made Balanced Brawl back in 2009, attempting to emulate "What would official Smash patches be like?"

We're pretty proud of our work in part because so much of what we did ended up in Smash 4 and Ultimate! That's not to say that the developers looked at our stuff or anything--more like the satisfaction of getting the answer key and seeing that your answers match the teacher's.

Things we got right:

• General
  • Ledge regrab limitations
• 
  • U-smash growth buffs
  • Fair knockback buffs
  • Dair consistency
  • Wrong: We buffed Mario's Fireball damage slightly; they nerfed it and focused more on Mario's combo game
  • Wrong: We let Mario walljump out of up-b. This is not necessary with Smash 4 ledges.
• 
  • Fixed jab linking
  • Higher base knockback on f-tilt
  • Safe-on-hit dash attack
  • Cargo down throw base knockback buffs
  • Hand Slap damage buff
• 
  • Fixed jab linking
  • F-tilt knockback buff
  • F-smash2 knockback buff
  • Fair2 knockback buff
  • Hero's Bow knockback buff
• 
  • F-tilt knockback changes
  • D-tilt knockback buffs (nerfed in 4, then buffed up to our BBrawl values in Ult)
  • F-smash knockback buffs
  • Pummel whiff fixes
  • Stronger throws
  • Zair damage nerfed
• 
  • Egg Roll no longer helpless in air
  • Various throw buffs
  • They completely remade much of Yoshi's ground moveset in 4, and generally went the opposite direction of many of our Yoshi fixes
  • We focused on adding shield damage to normal aerials; they essentially put it on Yoshi Bomb instead
• 
  • Jab linking fixed (took them 2 games worth of fixes though!)
  • Nair knockback buffs, endlag buffs, and AC buffs
  • U-throw knockback buffs (though we also did 1% more damage)
  • Wrong: We buffed damage on Stone; Smash 4 lowered the scaling instead, and Ultimate lowered it even more while adding lots of base knockback)
• 
  • Let Fox act out of side-b.
  • Jab linking fixed
• 
  • Fixed chaingrabs
  • Made u-throw the sauce instead
  • We added shield damage to fair and dair; their Pikachu aerial buffs went different directions
  • We made Skull bash shield-cancelable; they dramatically improved the FAF on both miss/hit instead
• 
  • Fixed dash attack linking
  • Luigi was low-key redesigned across 4 and Ultimate, and focused more on kill confirms than the safe-Fireball direction we went
• 
  • PK Flash knockback buff
  • Wrong: We focused on increasing single-hit damage of various moves (such as d-throw), while Smash 4 leaned into making these moves combo-heavy
• 
  • Jab3 knockback buffs
  • F-smash knockback growth buffs and lower angle when angled down
  • 22% knee
  • Major b-throw knockback increases
  • Falcon Dive damage and knockback buffs
  • Major base knockback buffs to Falcon Kick
  • We both buffed tilts comprehensively, but in various different ways
  • We both buffed dash attack angle and base knockback to make it combo better, but they also added damage and kill potential
  • We both buffed d-throw base knockback, but we lowered growth while they increased it
  • We both buffed damage of Raptor Boost, but we made it a consistent setup move while they made it a true kill option
  • Wrong: We put Heavy Armor on Falcon Punch
  • Wrong: Our wonderful Falcon Kick special cancels; alas, they were so fun
  • They Were Wrong: Falcon's pummel (with his knee) should be electric
• 
  • Jab linking fixes
  • 11% nair
  • D-throw damage buff
  • We both buffed dash attack, but we did it by going all-in on angle; they mixed a slighter angle adjustment with base knockback and added trample
  • We both buffed Rest damage and overall knockback, but they lowered overall miss/hit FAFs while we added a Fake Rest
  • Wrong: We made f-smash and d-smash stronger, they made them weaker with less endlag
  • Wrong: We made u-throw deal more damage; they made it deal less with less endlag
  • They Were Wrong: Their Smash 4 Rollout changes were lame, and ours were awesome. (At least it's better in Ult!)
• 
  • Base knockback buff on frying pan
  • F-throw bask knockback buff
  • D-throw chaingrab fixed but given a better followup angle (106)
  • Golf Club got mixed knockback adjustments while we just made it stronger
  • We gave Peach Bomber a mid-lunge cancel window, they just dramatically improved the startup and endlag.
  • Wrong: We buffed nair damage, they lowered it
• 
  • TOUGH GUY! I programmed Tough Guy in Brawl, and Ampharos wouldn't let me ship it!
    • "It's too radical!" said the guy who now mains Bowser in Ultimate
  • Jab damage buff
  • F-tilt damage buff
  • F-smash knockback buff (though they also remade the move entirely)
  • U-smash damage/knockback buff
  • Dair meteors
  • Grab release fixed
  • 12% f-throw and b-throw
  • U-throw adjustments including higher angle
  • Wrong: We buffed u-tilt damage, they nerfed it and gave it way less endlag
  • Wrong: We buffed fair damage, they gave it more range (and slower)
  • Wrong: We zero'd the KBG on d-throw, to keep it similar to Bowser's Brawl grab-release followups
• 
  • Hard to compare. We both remade the character heavily, in often different ways for identical goals.
  • 
    
  • (We both made Nana unable to grab, but we made her also unable to tilt; this meant all tilts were instant desyncs.)
• 
  • Also hard to compare--Sheik was pretty radically remade going into 4, with 2 entirely new specials and a lot of redesigned normals.
• 
  • ASIDE: Except possibly ICs, Zelda was by far the hardest character to fix. Ganon needed more work, but she was harder.
  • Jab, F-smash, and U-smash reliability fixed
    • We had to be more blunt with SDI multipliers, since it was SDI in Brawl's engine
    • We gave Jab a flower to be cute; they just buffed the damage
  • F-tilt heavily buffed into a viable neutral option
  • F-smash final hit knockback growth buff
  • D-smash knockback growth buff
  • B-throw knockback buff (not added until Ult)
  • Din's Fire no longer leaves helpless in air
  • Angle adjustments on Nayru's Love, though they buffed intangibility, startup, and endlag while we allowed Zelda to slide during it
  • Farore's Wind made into a higher damage kill move, except ours spiked exactly like custom 3 in Smash 4
  • Wrong: We made u-tilt better at killing via angle, while they made it more of a combo starter
  • Wrong: We made d-tilt scale less (making it more obnoxious); they did the opposite in both games
• 
  • Falco is also hard to compare. Brawl Falco was all about lasers and chainthrows and DACUS, and our adjusted Falco was sort of like a fat-free version of that. Frankly, Brawl Falco was a disgusting character that should probably never have existed.
  • Wrong: We let Falco wall jump out of up-b. This is not necessary with Smash 4 ledges.
• 
  • Less damage on fair. Our only change, and we nailed it.
• 
  • Fixed fair AC
  • More damage on pummel, though we overdid it and Ultimate would revert this
  • Warlock Punch has generous Super Armor
  • Flame Choke damage buff
  • Increased Dark Dive looping damage
  • Dramatically increased the damage/knockback of the uppercut hitbox, as implemented in custom 2 in Smash 4
  • Fixed Ganondorf being hitable out of Dark Dive throw
  • 16% Wizard's Foot
  • We made aerial Wizkick startup ground opponents, while they added shield damage.
  • We fixed downsmash in slightly different ways, though Ultimate of course replaced it entirely.
  • Wrong: We put some super armor on f-tilt and made d-tilt trip; they added damage and safety to various ground normals instead.
  • Wrong: We made Dark Dive's throw semi-spike--they just dramatically increased the knockback
  • Wrong: We added some invincibility to the middle Wizkick, to let it beat transcendent projectiles/hitboxes. This made sense in the context of Brawl's engine and meta, but isn't really needed now.
• 
  • Fixed jab linking
  • Fixed up-b reseting
  • Honestly, the character has been pretty radically remade since Brawl
• 
  • Nerfed d-smash knockback; they also nerfed damage in 4 but reverted it (the damage) in Ultimate.
  • Dimensional Cap Knockback growth buffed
  • We heavily nerfed Shuttle Loop, particularly grounded--they remade the entire move to be the inverse of its old design.
  • We nerfed Mach Tornado by making it hit out; they went different directions with the Smash 4 and Ultimate redesigns.
    • (It's a very different move in all 3 games.)
  • We added heavy SDI to d-tilt, while they just nerfed the FAF and hitbox directly.
• 
  • Jab linking fixed
  • Dash attack base knockback increase, though theirs was more radical
  • D-smash 1 and 2 buffed in a couple ways, though theirs were again more radical
  • Increased f-throw base knockback
  • We buffed f-tilt, d-tilt, and fair, which were all redesigned in Smash 4 as faster but weaker moves
• 
  • Jab linking fixed
  • 8% down-tilt
  • Additional f-throw endlag
  • We buffed f-smash, which was remade from scratch in Smash 4
  • We added damage and KBG to Paralyzer, while they increased BKB instead
  • Wrong: We went opposite directions on our D-smash knockback adjustments, though we were strictly concerned with preventing infinites
  • Wrong: ZSS probably needed nerfs; we just (as a community) did not know that yet
• 
  • Fixed grab release
  • Uair damage nerfed, though they nerfed it 4x what we did
  • Adjusted d-throw to remove chaingrab
  • We nerfed f-smash, which they remade into a new (worse, armor-less) move
  • They Were Wrong: Wario's Pummel should be Coin element
• 
  • Jab adjustments were similar, though implemented differently
  • F-tilt 1 and 2 damage nerfs
  • U-tilt lower knockback growth; they also added damage and shrunk the hitbox, which is what we would have preferred
  • D-throw damage nerf
  • Up-b reset fixed
  • We buffed d-smash, which they replaced with the new move
• 
  • F-throw and b-throw knockback buffs (we lowered angle too)
  • Nair AC buffed, though we did it way more to the point of SHAC. Smash 4 instead added SHAC fair, though Ultimate took this away and instead just lowered nair landing lag to terrifying levels. (Both were like what we did in different ways)
  • Quick Draw not helpless on hit, though we also made it not helpless on miss
  • Our Quick Draw endlag changes were somewhat similar to the landing lag changes in 4 and the FAF changes in Ultimate.
  • Wrong: We put heavy armor on Eruption charge and more super armor on release; they got rid of uncharged release super armor entirely. While we focused on buffing Ike specials, Smash 4 and Ultimate focused on normals.
• 
  • Significantly faster/safer Pokemon Change
  • Significantly higher Water Gun knockback
  • I programmed a version of Vine Whip very similar to the one in Ultimate, and we used it for some time. However, it animated poorly (due to how different Ivysaur's special fall animation is), and we eventually went with a generous dair momentum boost I made as a replacement to our first-choice solution.
  • Ivysaur d-smash buffed in multiple ways, though they were more generous
  • Ivysaur bair damage buff
  • Ivysaur dair sourspot damage buff. We also buffed sweetspot damage, they buffed the sweetspot size instead.
  • As mentioned above, we gave Ivysaur more horizontal control in dair instead of Vine Whip changes. Ultimate actually did the same, just no where near as much.
  • Bullet Seed startup fixed
  • Charizard Jab linking fixed
  • Charizard f-smash damage and knockback buffed
  • Charizard d-smash growth buffed
  • Charizard bair knockback buffed, though they also majorly buffed damage
  • We buffed Charizard fair damage, which was replaced with a new (more damaging) move in 4
  • We put a lot of Charizard's power on his Glide, which was obviously removed as a mechanic
  • Wrong: We buffed Charizard d-throw angle and preserved its insane Brawl growth; they made into into a combo throw in 4, then eased back in Ultimate
• 
  • Adjusted initial knockback of dash attack to not be explotiable
  • Added a powerful hitbox to Peanut Popgun overcharging
• 
  • Grab release animation fixed
  • U-throw knockback buff
  • PK Fire damage buff
  • PK Freeze sends horizontally with more knockback
  • PK Thunder 2 harder to escape from
  • Honestly, our Lucas was very different from both the Smash 4 and Ultimate versions.
  • Our Lucas featured a better spot dodge, stronger jab and d-tilt, stronger bair, and a more consistent dair--it centered heavily around "the Lucas combo" in Brawl. Smash 4 and Ultimate Lucas are built around entirely different strengths.
  • I did program a Lucas zair hitbox, but we ended up not shipping it and focusing on the above things instead.
• 
  • U-smash made more inescapable and knockback buffed significantly
  • Nair knockback buffed; they made additional adjustments
  • Uair damage buff
  • Dair knockback buff; we also added damage while they made the initial hit spike
  • Up-b reset fix
  • We buffed dash attack, which was redesigned as a different (more effective) move.
  • Wrong: We made d-tilt into a super strong setup tool; 4 and Ultimate went a very different direction with the move.
  • Wrong: We made spring spike. Sorry not sorry.
• 
  • DDD can't really be compared, given how much changed and how much his kit now revolves around Gordos instead of chaingrabbing and d-throw trapping.
  • Our version of DDD was radically different than both Brawl or his modern version; d-throw was the game's best tech chase setup, and Jet Hammer was a wacky recovery move.
• 
  • We buffed Pikmin Chain, which was replaced with a much better designed move/character
  • Wrong: Olimar probably needed nerfs; we just (as a community) did not know that yet
• 
  • Lucario values cannot be compared directly because Aura multipliers are different across the games.
  • Our general damage buffs can be seen as vaguely similar to the higher Smash 4 multiplier though
  • Also, we did unambiguously buff near Force Palm projectile like they did
• 
  • F-tilt has more consistent knockback
  • Stronger Super Robo Beam (we did the same damage as 4; Ultimate went far beyond us both)
  • U-throw knockback buffed, though they buffed damage too
  • D-throw knockback lowered to allow consistent followups
    • In practice, this is almost identical to the bury effect added in Ultimate
• 
  • Jab linking fixed
  • F-smash hits connects better
  • D-smash hits connect better
• 
  • Jab linking fixed
  • We adjusted f-tilt knockback slightly differently
  • F-throw buffed in a few ways
  • B-throw buffed in a few ways
  • Fire Wolf damage buffed and made to link much better
  • We majorly tuned nair, which they (wisely) replaced with a new move
  • We buffed u-throw, which they replaced
  • Wrong: We let Wolf cancel out of side-b, and walljump out of up-b. This is not necessary with Smash 4 ledges + an engine that is far more in Wolf's favor.

All-in-all, I was always impressed with how much we "got right." So many of the damage or knockback changes we managed to get exact.

Zelda and Yoshi were the two most difficult characters to address, and I really, really prefer what the Smash team did with them compared to our efforts. Ditto with Olimar and Falco, who we sort of didn't even try with, and phoned in the minimum.

On the other hand, I really liked the Lucas and Falcon we ended up with, and sort of miss them. (Since the 4/Ult versions are so different) I also really liked our insta-desync ICs, though they were probably too complex for more casual players, and I have the weakest interval of confidence as to what their top-level success would be. (Could be trash, could be broken--it's too hard to really predict.)


And for what it's worth, I've had a good track record so far predicting per-character Ultimate changes. (Especially the nerfs, those were the easiest) I've managed to guess:

• Wolf nerfs to d-smash knockback and blaster FAF
• Pichu self-damage and f-tilt knockback nerfs
• Lucina fair/f-smash nerfs
• Olimar U-smash FAF nerf
• Joker Arsene meter nerfs, specifically on-damage only
• Palutena nair and d-throw nerfs
• K. Rool d-throw nerf and nair buff
• Isabelle Fishing Rod and Lloid Trap startup and trigger buffs
• Incineroar Revenge hitbox size and FAF buffs
• Jigglypuff air dodge FAF buff
• Little Mac KO Punch FAF buff

Of course, there are many changes I didn't expect. I didn't expect Lariat buffs or Puff dair SHAC. I didn't expect Young Link to be buffed, even if they were the buffs I'd have guessed for that character. I would not have guessed Cloud would get a Limit charge buff. I expected PK Freeze nerfs. I expected Snake special nerfs. I was suspicious we'd get a Joker uair landing lag nerf, and we still might. No one expected the shoto d-smash thing. I don't understand Ultimate Bayonetta enough to know what she would get if buffed; the same is true for a few other characters like Lucario or ICs.

I expect, in the future, the dev team to patiently loop back around to previously buffed characters who prove over time to not have benefitted enough. (As they have done already once.) Ganon and MK are also prime suspects, though Ganon's dominance of online remains a big question mark. (But Cloud and Mac are big online too, so who knows.) They seem reluctant to really go after the Miis.

All in all, another good patch that should inspire confidence about the future of the game. Slow, steady, meaningful improvements.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Im sure they'll buff certain characters further, even if they got buffs before. Sheik is a good example now. I think they'll keep giving buffs to other characters who are a little underwhelming too. For example the Pits, DK, Incineroar, Jigglypuff and Mewtwo. Pretty sure these will get addressed whenever its time. Still hoping for Diddy to get a few buffs too, as he's just a few buffs away from being able to play his game as he used to. I also really would like to see more Pichu in competitive play. Pichu was easily my most favourite character to watch in the older meta where he was still viable.

 

[PK Gaming]

Tried out Doctor Mario while playing with buds, and Thinkaman was right; this character straight up has a broken combination damage, frame data and KO power, held back an untenably bad recovery. It's honestly hilarious how utterly broken this character would be if his movement speed and recovery were comparable to Mario.

To be honest, I don't know if you can get away with saying the character sucks anymore... He feels like Ganondorf, but done right.

 

[TennisBall]

I also really would like to see more Pichu in competitive play. Pichu was easily my most favourite character to watch in the older meta where he was still viable.

You and I both, pal.
Roach Gang forever.
In other news, I bet the Japanese Toon Links are having fun in Japan with their buffs.
It's time for our favorite classic Upset train.

 

[Tri Knight]

You and I both, pal.
Roach Gang forever.
In other news, I bet the Japanese Toon Links are having fun in Japan with their buffs.
It's time for our favorite classic Upset train.

All while T is plotting his spot as the one true god Link. ;P

 

[Diddy Kong]

All while T is plotting his spot as the one true god Link. ;P

Well, that's true though in terms of appearances.

I mean Smash 64 and Melee had adult Hero of Time Link, so 2 appearances. Melee had Young Link as the young Hero of Time, and he's back in Ultimate, so 2 appearances. Twilight Princess Link is exclusive to Brawl and Smash 4. Then there's the new adult Link, the Hylian Champion of BotW in Ultimate with his first appearance. While Toon Link is in Brawl, Smash 4 and in Ultimate, so 3 appearances.

Not sure if he's the best tho, but he could be.

 

[Nobie]

This is true of all Kirby copy abilities in Ultimate. (It's also something we did in BBrawl! )



Yeah, exactly.

I think Kirby Monado has the same ratios, but interact awkwardly with his jumps + Jump doesn't boost up-b. That said, it might still be the best Copy move in the game, just due to how much knockback modifications can boost his combo game.

Interesting. I thought the boosts were only on moves that suffered in some way due to Kirby's size, but it's cool that it's just a blanket buff.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's honestly hilarious how utterly broken this character would be if his movement speed and recovery were comparable to Mario.

Right??? Up-b is one of those moves like Ness b-throw or Ike nair or Joker bair where you use it and think "Wait, is this okay?" Move is absurd.

Ganon would be way better if he had the best reflector in the game too, fwiw. Goes a long way towards helping slowness.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Tried out Doctor Mario while playing with buds, and Thinkaman was right; this character straight up has a broken combination damage, frame data and KO power, held back an untenably bad recovery. It's honestly hilarious how utterly broken this character would be if his movement speed and recovery were comparable to Mario.

To be honest, I don't know if you can get away with saying the character sucks anymore... He feels like Ganondorf, but done right.

Exactly. His recovery is still crap but his advantage state is significantly better now as he has gained a move that grants him reliable followups into most of his moveset at varying percents, something he didn't really have before. This is on top of his already fast frame data, strong KO potential, and decent edgeguarding options.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Exactly. His recovery is still crap but his advantage state is significantly better now as he has gained a move that grants him reliable followups into most of his moveset at varying percents, something he didn't really have before. This is on top of his already fast frame data, strong KO potential, and decent edgeguarding options.

The changes are all fine and dandy, but it still pretty hard to actually put these changes to good use due to his god awful approach.

His mobility is still among the worst in the game, while having little range in his moveset as a whole. Having good reward for approaching is nice, but getting there is difficult in the first place, while he just randomly dies offstage thanks to his awful recovery.

A point that I don't think people talk about is that his landing lag on his moves is too great to compliment his archetype (as they are laggier than Mario's aside from forward and down air). Neutral air (7 frames), forward air (17 frames), back air (10 frames), up air (8 frames), and down air (13 frames).
While these landing lag values looks good on paper, it is not very great for a low range, low mobility character.

Up B is a pretty good OoS option all things considered, but is hindered by a lack of range, the sweetspot only being active on the first three frames (the sourspot is laughably weak), and vulnerability after using it. A G&W up B it is not.

So while Dr. Mario does benefit a lot from his advantage state being more consistently better (definitely not a bottom 5, maybe not bottom 10 material anymore), his numerous glaring weaknesses was not touched upon at all, weaknesses that often prevents him from taking advantage of his new combo game.
Eh, we'll see if someone does indeed put work into the character, which can happen, but in the meantime I am getting some patch 6.0 vibes whenever I see people discuss about how much better the character is.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Doc actullay having better follow ups and confirms does help him compared to Mario.

Ever since Smash 4 the fact that Doc's high power and damage than Mario was almost meme-worthy. As while Doc could do more damage Per-Hit. Mario could essentially did much more damage off one grab\neutral win due to his superior combo game, as well as confirms that worked at higher percent levrld

That still remained pretty true in Ultimate until now. Doc getting these buffs can at least give him some edges over his non PhD counterpart

 

[VenomSnake]

That being, who do you think in this game is solo viable?

One underrated, definitely solo-viable character is

His match-up spread (at least from observing high level players and my own observations) is that of a top tier. The only genuinely agreed -1 mus for sonic are and , with Wrath making a solid case that and can also be unfavorable matchups. But with that said, Sonic arguably doesn't have a single -2 matchup in the game, and actually does pretty well against most of the other top tiers, either going even or straight up having +1s with (which even Leo believes Sonic wins) and . Sonic has a lot of versatility with his moveset in this game mainly due to him actually having utility on everything in this game (unlike Smash 4 where his moveset largely sucked outside of his brokenly-good side b, uair, bair, and spring), and as a result he isn't really counter-pick-able. The issue with Sonic, and why he's rightfully seen as a low-high tier, is just due to the character's own issues, like his dysfunctional uair and spincharge, and his kill power can be really bad at high level. IMO if not for sonic's neutral being so challenging as well as his own inconsistencies, he'd easily be one of the best characters in the game.

He goes even or wins against almost the entirety of the cast, it's just up to the player to actually have the patience and ability to outplay the opponent at higher level that holds him back.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

One underrated, definitely solo-viable character is

His match-up spread (at least from observing high level players and my own observations) is that of a top tier. The only genuinely agreed -1 mus for sonic are and , with Wrath making a solid case that and can also be unfavorable matchups. But with that said, Sonic arguably doesn't have a single -2 matchup in the game, and actually does pretty well against most of the other top tiers, either going even or straight up having +1s with (which even Leo believes Sonic wins) and . Sonic has a lot of versatility with his moveset in this game mainly due to him actually having utility on everything in this game (unlike Smash 4 where his moveset largely sucked outside of his brokenly-good side b, uair, bair, and spring), and as a result he isn't really counter-pick-able. The issue with Sonic, and why he's rightfully seen as a low-high tier, is just due to the character's own issues, like his dysfunctional uair and spincharge, and his kill power can be really bad at high level. IMO if not for sonic's neutral being so challenging as well as his own inconsistencies, he'd easily be one of the best characters in the game.

He goes even or wins against almost the entirety of the cast, it's just up to the player to actually have the patience and ability to outplay the opponent at higher level that holds him back.

Honestly I don't think Sonic wins the Joker matchup, I think it's even but Leo keeps on remembering that he got beaten by KEN all the way back when he first used Joker. Back at Umebura SP 7 Zackray 2-0'd him twice in Grands, if it was a losing matchup like Mega Man it would have been more like the match Zackray had against Kameme which was a super close 2-1.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel dumb asking this, but what makes Dr. Mario's cape the best reflector in the game?

 

[Tri Knight]

I feel dumb asking this, but what makes Dr. Mario's cape the best reflector in the game?

Doesnt just reflect projectiles, it reflects recoveries as well causing an automatic KO.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I feel dumb asking this, but what makes Dr. Mario's cape the best reflector in the game?

It's not the best reflector in the game. It is good, but it is not Makarakarn or Bucket levels of good.

Compared to Mario's Cape, it has a higher damage multiplier on reflected projectiles (1.5x -> 1.6x) and it deals slightly more damage, but it lacks any stall in the air.

 

[Vyrnx]

No, Doc's up b oos is definitely better than Gnw's

Both frame 3 but Doc's is killing you (early).

 

[SwagGuy99]

I feel dumb asking this, but what makes Dr. Mario's cape the best reflector in the game?

There are a few things that 's reflector has over some other ones:

• Has a 1.6 damage multiplier on reflected projectiles, making it one of the stronger reflectors.
• Effective for b-reversing.
• Doesn't stall his momentum (most reflectors stall either horizontal or vertical momentum).
• Deals 8% damage which is more than a lot of other reflectors.
• High vertical range.
• Can grab ledge while using the move.
• Has extra utility as:
  • An edgeguarding option.
  • A mix-up in combos.
  • An approach option.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

No, Doc's usmash oos is definitely better than Gnw's

Both frame 3 but Doc's is killing you (early).

Doc's doesn't have invincibility, with a giant hitbox, while also being a very good recovery on its own right.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is a bit of Terry tech found not too long ago:

I am pretty sure you guys already know about the new Kara Cancel tech for Ken/Ryu, but just in case, I will post it again:

 

[Vyrnx]

Doc's doesn't have invincibility, with a giant hitbox, while also being a very good recovery on its own right.

Both are nonfactors as far as its use out of shield. With an oos option like this you use it when it's guaranteed to hit--theres no reason to be whiffing an oos option if you're familiar with the game (especially for one that's frame 3)--so safety of an oos option on whiff isn't a consideration (even here, invuln doesn't start on gnw up b till he's airborne (frame 5) which is after you've already hit the opponent).

The moves have different uses oos--Game and Watch's is going to combo you into disadvantage at low percents and stay a "don't touch me" option at higher percents (and even if he doesn't combo you here he's probably going to juggle you till you end up on the ledge--the gnw vortex is unreal). Doc's kills midweights at the ledge at like 80 and from the middle at 120 or so--thats crazy for a frame 3 move. At low percents it deals 16% for free.

Both are good but in a direct comparison Doc's is definitely better and probably the best oos option in the game. Now if you were to say gnw's up as a move is better than doc's--that's a different question where'd you have to talk about recoveries, invuln, etc.

Edit: also as far as range oos they're basically identical as far as I can tell

 

[The_Bookworm]

Both are nonfactors as far as its use out of shield. With an oos option like this you use it when it's guaranteed to hit--theres no reason to be whiffing an oos option if you're familiar with the game (especially for one that's frame 3)--so safety of an oos option on whiff isn't a consideration (even here, invuln doesn't start on gnw up b till he's airborne (frame 5) which is after you've already hit the opponent).

The moves have different uses oos--Game and Watch's is going to combo you into disadvantage at low percents and stay a "don't touch me" option at higher percents (and even if he doesn't combo you here he's probably going to juggle you till you end up on the ledge--the gnw vortex is unreal). Doc's kills midweights at the ledge at like 80 and from the middle at 120 or so--thats crazy for a frame 3 move. At low percents it deals 16% for free.

Both are good but in a direct comparison Doc's is definitely better and probably the best oos option in the game. Now if you were to say gnw's up as a move is better than doc's--that's a different question where'd you have to talk about recoveries, invuln, etc.

Edit: also as far as range oos they're basically identical as far as I can tell

As far as range goes, it is ok, but the fact that it only hits at one side makes it notably vulnerable to cross-ups, as well as put the Doc in free-fall.
There is a reason why players only seldomly use their up B OoS, despite Mario's version having intangibility at start-up unlike Doc's version.

 

[ARISTOS]

No, Doc's usmash oos is definitely better than Gnw's

Both frame 3 but Doc's is killing you (early).

Up-Smash or Up-B lol?

Anyways outside of their startup the two moves have entirely different use cases.

As far as range goes, it is ok, but the fact that it only hits at one side makes it notably vulnerable to cross-ups, as well as put the Doc in free-fall.
There is a reason why players only seldomly use their up B OoS, despite Mario's version having intangibility at start-up unlike Doc's version.

Mario's up-B OOS has pretty poor reward, whereas Dr. Mario's murders people. It's a big difference.

 

[LightKnight]

That

Yeah, me and Amazing Ampharos made Balanced Brawl back in 2009, attempting to emulate "What would official Smash patches be like?"

• 
  • TOUGH GUY! I programmed Tough Guy in Brawl, and Ampharos wouldn't let me ship it!
    • "It's too radical!" said the guy who now mains Bowser in Ultimate
• 
  • Jab linking fixed
  • Dash attack base knockback increase, though theirs was more radical
  • D-smash 1 and 2 buffed in a couple ways, though theirs were again more radical
  • Increased f-throw base knockback
  • We buffed f-tilt, d-tilt, and fair, which were all redesigned in Smash 4 as faster but weaker moves

That note about Bowser and Ampharos was funny.

Something I'm curious to hear more about is current thoughts on Pit. When the game first came out people were thinking the character was mid-tier when comparing them to Smash4 but now most will say they are low-tier...
Seeing as you and the balancing team had similar ideas on what to buff, is Pit better than most people think? Or are there some new glaring issues that really hold them down when it comes to the Pits fighting the rest of the cast specifically in this game?
If so, then what is it do you think that needs changing? Of course, I'm asking for anyone's opinion too.

Personally, the character is super fun to play and certainly within my top 3 best characters if not the highest and I think they have enough matchups where they can do very well, partly due to gimping. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only other character I can think of to have the versatility and ease of edguarding that the Pits do is Pikachu. This, along with their well rounded honest moveset is what makes them my favorite character to play.

However, a few issues I notice when playing that may or may not need changing are their Utilt lacking in range (perhaps it could reach low slightly behind on the first hit, scooping them into the rest of the move? This would more accurately fit with the animation.), Uair not being reliable as a KO option (especially given its start-up, in which case I'd appreciate if it KO'd around 110% and could often be combo'd into from Utilt till about that percent), weird hitboxes (such as Fair/Nair), and Sspecial (having a strange lack of invincibility frames in certain parts of the move).
There are other things I'd mention but those are the biggest things I take issue with.

 

[Vyrnx]

As far as range goes, it is ok, but the fact that it only hits at one side makes it notably vulnerable to cross-ups, as well as put the Doc in free-fall.
There is a reason why players only seldomly use their up B OoS, despite Mario's version having intangibility at start-up unlike Doc's version.

If they hit the other side of your shield then you b reverse the up b. Safety on whiff I mentioned in my post above--you can basically always guarantee an oos option will hit before you use it just through experience (especially with a frame 3 one).

 

[Thinkaman]

Reflectors ranked by minimum commitment: (on whiff)

107f
77f
62f
57f
54f
53f
50f
50f
49f
45f
44f
44f
43f
39f
38f
36f
36f
36f
35f
35f
30f

The ones I underlined are the only ones that really retain movement/momentum in a useful way. (A couple, like Falco, retain initial momentum but have such high aerial friction that it doesn't matter.) For most of them, braking to stall is a recovery mixup--a feature, not a bug. The ones that retain momentum tend to not involve hitboxes, so jumping at opponents with them is not a particularly safe neutral choice.

Then there's Doc. Not only can he shorthop cape with just as much movement as an empty shorthop, but 35 frames is the exact duration of his shorthop! And in fact, since landing with a special bypasses the 1 frame of idle landing lag, this means Doc buffered SH cape is actually 1 frame faster than empty short hop! (38 vs 39 total) If you tried to do the same with Mario, it will take 44 frames and you will go less than 50% of the distance.

Fox has to decide if he wants to move towards you or go for a reflect. Mario has to decide if he wants to move towards you or go for a reflect. Wolf has to decide if he wants to move towards you or go for a reflect.

Doc, and only Doc, can do both. He can retain 100% of his (aerial) movement speed while throwing out a meaty 14 frame reflect with only 35 (38 with jumpsquat) frames of commitment. The actual cape hitbox is just a disjointed cherry on top.

Go try it. Just go run around with Doc, and roll your finger from jump to special. It's a delightful experience that you will not have experienced with any other character.


Edit: Or think of it this way. Wolf Laser is 52 frames. If Mario stops his approach to reflects a laser, he gained a net 17 frames worth of movement, minus a few for acceleration. You know how many Dr. Mario gained? 52!

Now, a Dr. Mario frame of movement is worth less than Mario (or almost any character), but that only emphasizes how valuable to him it is that he has this tool.

 

[NotLiquid]

I kinda underestimated how fast Joker actually loses Arsene meter now. A 1.3x multiplier doesn't sound much on paper but that kind of number adds up quickly over the run of the game, especially if the character you're playing is particularly potent at pushing prolonged strings or racking damage.

Pikachu is looking like so much more of a stomp, but I also think if Inkling didn't already have a winning MU against Joker (which I've argued she's kind of had for a while), she sure as hell does now. I'm not surprised MKLeo is considering going back to playing MUs with a counterpick mentality, Joker's MU spread just got became a little more of an uphill battle.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I kinda underestimated how fast Joker actually loses Arsene meter now. A 1.3x multiplier doesn't sound much on paper but that kind of number adds up quickly over the run of the game, especially if the character you're playing is particularly potent at pushing prolonged strings or racking damage.

Pikachu is looking like so much more of a stomp, but I also think if Inkling didn't already have a winning MU against Joker (which I've argued she's kind of had for a while), she sure as hell does now. I'm not surprised MKLeo is considering going back to playing MUs with a counterpick mentality, Joker's MU spread just got became a little more of an uphill battle.

Yeah any character that have notable lengthy and/or damaging combo strings can now completely delete a full Arsene meter given the chance.

Id say are likely losing now. The likes of may not be "losing" but likely can be troublesome if they can keep pressing their momentum.

 

[|RK|]

Both are nonfactors as far as its use out of shield. With an oos option like this you use it when it's guaranteed to hit--theres no reason to be whiffing an oos option if you're familiar with the game (especially for one that's frame 3)--so safety of an oos option on whiff isn't a consideration (even here, invuln doesn't start on gnw up b till he's airborne (frame 5) which is after you've already hit the opponent).

The moves have different uses oos--Game and Watch's is going to combo you into disadvantage at low percents and stay a "don't touch me" option at higher percents (and even if he doesn't combo you here he's probably going to juggle you till you end up on the ledge--the gnw vortex is unreal). Doc's kills midweights at the ledge at like 80 and from the middle at 120 or so--thats crazy for a frame 3 move. At low percents it deals 16% for free.

Both are good but in a direct comparison Doc's is definitely better and probably the best oos option in the game. Now if you were to say gnw's up as a move is better than doc's--that's a different question where'd you have to talk about recoveries, invuln, etc.

Edit: also as far as range oos they're basically identical as far as I can tell

I think I see what the other poster is saying. G&W's properties make it so they can preemptively mash, regardless of percent, etc. They can honestly figure out what's punishable by trial and error.

On the other hand, Doc's is one that you toss out and you need it to hit. Else, you die. Doc's may still be overall better, but I don't think the difference is as clear cut, since Game & Watch's acts as an eject button from a ton of situations, whether it starts a combo or not.

 

[Lacrimosa]

This new Phantom is nuts.
After one hit of one of the small stages (1 to 3), the opponent receives so much knockback that you can easily build a bigger phantom, even at lower percents. This makes neutral a lot easier because prior to the patch the early Phantom stages were more or less useless.
Paired with fTilt for closer combat it's pretty nice, although fTilt is a bit too slow for some MUs.
Really liking it so far, even after like two days the patch came out. There's still a lot of optimizing to do, mostly the positioning and the question which stage of the Phantom should be released.

 

[PK Gaming]

Missed the Balance Brawl discussion, and at the risk of sounding like a kiss ass I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was a happy medium between Project M and OG Brawl; perfect for people who were willing to deal with Brawl's overall pace and game speed but not the broken garbage.

The overlap between it and modern balance sensibilities are interesting.

I kinda underestimated how fast Joker actually loses Arsene meter now. A 1.3x multiplier doesn't sound much on paper but that kind of number adds up quickly over the run of the game, especially if the character you're playing is particularly potent at pushing prolonged strings or racking damage.

Pikachu is looking like so much more of a stomp, but I also think if Inkling didn't already have a winning MU against Joker (which I've argued she's kind of had for a while), she sure as hell does now. I'm not surprised MKLeo is considering going back to playing MUs with a counterpick mentality, Joker's MU spread just got became a little more of an uphill battle.

Which is honestly good for the meta, speaking as a Joker main. It's more exciting if Mkleo is forced to counterpick more often, and it leads to a less centralized meta.

I honestly think Peach is a difficult matchup too now. A good combo from her absolutely shreds through Arsene

 

[NairWizard]

Sheik's aerial needle buff is huge. At -7 on shield, it's less a projectile, and more like they added a new aerial to her kit--an aerial that confirms into combos and kills! It's pretty safe on whiff too. At ledge, if you jump into needles and the opponent elects to roll behind you, you can still react in time and catch with f-tilt--meaning that her ledgetrapping often leads to a stock.

This is a pretty drastic change for the character. It's not going to fix her issues completely, because she still needs a confirm to get a kill and doesn't have a raw KO move outside of confirm percents, but what this means is that Sheik doesn't have try to (poorly) imitate the neutral monster that she was in S4. She can play a more committal style at low percents, making reads to get high-damage combos, and then fish for the kill with a couple of very safe setups at high percents. That's not a bad playstyle at all; at least, it should limit the frequency of rage or rogue f-smash reads stealing games from her.

I think she was by far the biggest winner of this patch.

 

[Thinkaman]

Missed the Balance Brawl discussion, and at the risk of sounding like a kiss ass I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was a happy medium between Project M and OG Brawl; perfect for people who were willing to deal with Brawl's overall pace and game speed but not the broken garbage.

The overlap between it and modern balanve sensibilities are interesting

One small bit of BBrawl trivia I've mentioned a few times: I talked to Reggie about it once! Super casual; I'd characterize the conversation as brief and meaningless. But a fun moment.