• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    587

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
I think there is a big of a jargon barrier here. Ink, for these spaces we have somewhat standardized lingo to express what we are describing. If you need clarification let us know; if you use the term differently locally thats fine but we wont see it that way

To be blunt, if you get hit with failnaughts second stage you screwed up bad. Thats fine, we all get mixed up, mistime a ness bat, anything. But in tournament play we want consistency. Relying on hitting a two second move aint it.

When you say kill confirm for a character less than a week old, explain what the nair confirms into please. Because if she really does have one we all need to know so we dont end up on stream getting destroyed.

She has nair fastfall into jab lock? This is a lingo thing, but its in the word. Confirm. When you land a confirm, the next action WILL work unless you mess up execution. For a kill confirm, once you land it you execute and take the stock. So here a jab on a missed tech is the kill confirm, and nair is a setup.

nair also places them in disadvantage. But nair isnt a kill confirm, because you arent guaranteed much afaik.
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
It's unwise to directly compare Phantom with Failnaught; I only brought it up in that they both--in slightly different ways--force some degree of meaningful action from the opponent. (Which is important to slow-moving characters!)

Note that Din's Fire does not fulfill this purpose, and Smash 4's inferior Phantom basically didn't either.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
I've noticed that a lot of Byleth's attacks seems to send opponents off-stage at angles conducive to getting off at least the basic Failnaught, i.e. up and away so they don't fall below the stage. It's not a combo by any means, but even if it misses, it can be a warning shot. "You don't want me to catch you slipping."
 
Last edited:

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
I've noticed that a lot of Byleth's attacks seems to send opponents off-stage at angles conducive to getting off at least the basic Failnaugh, i.e. up and away so they don't fall below the stage. It's not a combo by any means, but even if it misses, it can be a warning shot. "You don't want me to catch you slipping."
The one thing I've noticed that Failnaught is good at is catching airdodges. I can't count how many times I've been blasted to the blastzone, than I directional airdodge to the stage, only to get sniped.
Guess that's why you jump when you're getting launched.
 

BlackInk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
1,368
So, Frostbite is this month. Anyone know the tiering of the event? I suspect S Tier, but I'm not entirely sure.

Also, I'm sorry, I am going to have to strongly disargee that Failnaught is better than Phantom. Phantom bodyblocks projectles, Zelda does not have to commit like Byleth does, she can release it fast, it's strong, it two frames, Zelda is free to move around and threaten with 50/50 scenarios, and while he can't cancel it into a defenseive option, she can, you know, release it almost instantly and lose pretty much nothing as it either hits the opponent, or forces them to shield/spotdodge as it covers jumps and if it doesn't cover the jump, they were probably trying to land and you shouldn't have used it in the first place.
Releasing the phantom early is canceling? She lags so hard from doing that. Zelda’s phantom also has an invisible recharge meter, meaning she is committed to the move no matter what she does. What happens when Byleth cancels the bow? Absolutely nothing is lost.
 
Last edited:

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
I've noticed that a lot of Byleth's attacks seems to send opponents off-stage at angles conducive to getting off at least the basic Failnaugh, i.e. up and away so they don't fall below the stage. It's not a combo by any means, but even if it misses, it can be a warning shot. "You don't want me to catch you slipping."
I actually started to notice this as well after getting some more time in with Byleth and playing a rather competent (well as competent as a few day old Byleth can be) one for a bit as well. Particularly on flat stages in which you don’t have a platform you can jump over stage onto (not that Byleth is at any means bad at covering a platform with hitboxes, provided she can get over there in time.)

Getting near the ledge after launching an opponent off stage towards the upper corner of the blastzone and then start doing some bow feints. It gets the opponent to want to either jump before they drift into the bow’s line of sight and recover high or air dodge/fast fall below it and recover low. Which is good as Byleth reduces the amount space she needs to cover when edge guarding which helps a character with bad mobility. It reminds me of how people counterplay Ness’ up/down smash at ledge in that you can recover high to avoid it but Ness can stuff your jump with an aerial and place you in a worse spot, all without actually having used the yo-yo. Just the fact it exists was enough to encourage that exploitable behavior by the opponent.
 

Vyrnx

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
639
Location
KY/NC
The move that stands out to me most as far as Byleth's ledge trapping goes is up air. It's a great option (high kb, relatively low commitment) for covering a generally strong ledge option. Besides this I don't agree that Byleth's ledge trapping is top tier or close to it. He's got some very strong moves that'll kill early here and that do technically cover multiple options, but all with the same combo of lengthy startup, FAF, and few active frames.

There are two important points here: The first is that ledge jump is an unreactable option. Byleth doesn't really struggle with ledge jump because of his uair, but the range he works in to cover jump is completely incompatible with the range I think most people are imagining Byleth to ledge trap from (this being the range where down angled fsmash will hit a hanging opponent--where side b also tippers and just outside of where he can bully with fair/bair). If the Byleth does want to ledge trap from this range, then side b does hit jump and will even kill--but it has to be from an absolute guess, and guesswork is a characteristic of Byleth's ledge trapping across the board, especially at this greater-than-roll distance.

This is caused by the second point: In a ledge getup situation the timing mixup is usually in favor of the defender. This is increasingly true as a character's startup increases (and as active frames decrease, but this is slightly less of an issue).

Just as a broader note on ledge trapping (I'll come back to Byleth in a minute), I see two distinct kinds of ledge trapping--proactive and reactive.

For the proactive form, think of a Chrom nairing at the ledge before (or as) the opponent chooses an option. This covers unreactable options (jump or ledge drop stuff) while also being safe on neutral get up block (or hitting them outright), and without completely giving up roll (the most crucial option to cover in a ledge trap situation since it's the only one that can immediately remove a defender from disadvantage--a characteristic of every great ledge trapping player like Leo, ZeRo, Samsora, Tweek etc is that this is always the first option they have covered). For reactive ledge trapping think of Peach floating at roll distance with her back facing the ledge. Roll in and neutral get up are fully reactable with bair, a move which also has the added benefit of having no lag (as with Chrom's nair). Lucina is another good example of this kind, but works a little bit differently. She's usually going to force you to pick any option besides roll and then pressure your getup option after you've chosen it, as opposed to Peach who's trying to directly punish your getup (and doesn't usually get punished for messing up).

The best ledge trapping games are reliable and quickly/easily accessible. The best bets here are low startup low endlag moves that can accommodate both proactive and reactive ledge trapping--since you want to ensure you maintain advantage state, cover roll, and threaten coverage of unreactable options. These are the reasons why characters like Peach, Chrom, Joker, and Inkling are so good at ledge trapping.

There are outlying characters here as well, like characters that have moves obviously designed with ledge trapping in mind--Dedede, Zelda, Robin, Simon, and maybe Snake, for instance. All of them have moves that independently cover certain options while the player can then cover something else. oh and there's game and watch, who's just a ledge trapping monster in general.

Anyway, back to Byleth:

Ledge trapping anywhere from roll to fsmash range gives Byleth access to his most deadly options here--but on the condition that they'll require total guesswork. High startup on all of his moves here (side b, fsmash, jump plus fair bair) turns every option bar maybe roll unreactable (unless you happen to be charging fsmash already when the opponent is on ledge, this could be a deadly situation but a relatively inaccessible one). So in theory though side b and fsmash cover neutral getup, jump, and roll simultaneously, the Byleth is going to have to use it proactively (i.e. randomly), but high endlag means a wrong guess (very likely given my second point from earlier) forfeits advantage. (fair and bair can't be used proactively at all because this turns ledge hang safe, and reacting to the startup on these moves equals a free neutral get up).

The best bet for Byleth's ledge trapping will probably be some mix of fsmash range guessing for random early kills and something more reliable--like maybe ledge trapping the way Lucina does, pressuring the opponent after their getup rather than punishing them for the getup (with bair, maybe. it's such a cool move), and covering jumps with uair.

We'll just have to wait and see. the character is new, this is obviously all theorycraft--though from what I've seen of Pink Fresh's play, the ledge traps aren't really there. Maybe Leo will show us the way.
 
Last edited:

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Ledge fsmash covers ledge drop aerial, getup, and jump at the least. Up angle for jump, which doesnt forfeit much for tall enemies. Then you can also hit roll with the staff to reset the trap.

no experience myself, but gimrs new video explains as much.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Up-angled f-smash can cover many ledge jumps.

and without completely giving up roll (the most crucial option to cover in a ledge trap situation since it's the only one that can immediately remove a defender from disadvantage--a characteristic of every great ledge trapping player like Leo, ZeRo, Samsora, Tweek etc is that this is always the first option they have covered
This is a well written post and it makes a good argument, but I disagree, mostly based on this quoted passage. It's true that you should usually cover roll (and I've talked about doing this in previous posts)--at low percents or when you're ahead. At kill percents, or when the game is significantly skewed out of your favor, though, you'll notice that Leo, Samsora, and Tweek won't always cover roll--sometimes they'll take the guess, trying to read an option that will let them get a kill.

You can find plenty of examples of this online, but here's an example of a situation where trying to cover the roll was actually the wrong choice (sort of):

https://youtu.be/AI63RHUb1uc?t=1641

Here, imagine that the stocks are even, instead of Leo being ahead. If Leo had committed to reading another option here (like neutral getup) instead of waiting patiently, he might have gotten the stock; waiting, on the other hand, afforded him nothing, except for maintaining stage control in the unlikely event of a roll. They're at such high percents that stage control really doesn't matter anyway (any stray Peach aerial will destroy Joker here; what are you going to do with more stage?), so the stock read attempt would be the right call.

Since he was ahead, though, his attempt to maintain stage control was the right call.

It's all about risk and reward. If the trade off is between "possibly losing stage control" and "probably getting in some damage," you may not want to take that bet, unless you very badly need that damage (meaning that you're behind). But if the trade off is between "possibly losing stage control" and "possibly sealing the opponent's stock," that's very tempting in most matchups.

Byleth's f-smash read at ledge, while committal in some matchups, can seal a stock at very low percent, so it's usually worth going for, even in those instances where you give up stage control in the process. So you're right, Byleth will guess a lot--but guessing games that can net you a stock lead are usually pretty good.
 
Last edited:

BlackInk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
1,368
Ledge fsmash covers ledge drop aerial, getup, and jump at the least. Up angle for jump, which doesnt forfeit much for tall enemies. Then you can also hit roll with the staff to reset the trap.

no experience myself, but gimrs new video explains as much.
The option is legitimately good but Byleth’s nair, fair, bair, and tilts seem better for covering the ledge during late percents as they all can kill and barely have any lag. I’m actually annoyed that Byleth players don’t spam those moves more often when they can end stocks pretty well.
 
Last edited:

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Releasing the phantom early is canceling? She lags so hard from doing that.
Does she now? You don't want to get hit by the early Phantom stages, not even the first stage at mid-percents because if you get hit it has knockback that will allow her to set up another phantom. Note that it also hits airborne opponents in the correct stage. I think people are still underselling the knockback buff this move has received, it's not just there for killing but it also helps her advantage.

The move still has its issues, it struggles against opponents that play the retreat-game against (:ultfalcon::ultroy:) or float above it (:ultpeach:) and chars that have projectiles that go through the Phantom (:ultrichter:, kinda :ultrob:) or are fast by default (:ultyounglink::ultfalco::ultdarkpit::ultpit:).
This point gets invalidated if you set the Phantom up in front of her but that tech is still mostly unused.
Don't mention reflectors, you'll get punished for using them (getting grabbed also invalidates :ultpalutena::ultjoker:attempts), unless you're :ultvillager::ultisabelle: but even they have to commit.


In fact, because of that, you have to release it early in these MUs to catch them of-guard. Phantom hits fast if released. It's not a bad thing to do. It still denies space for the opposing character and if you hit them then it's even better.
The cooldown phase is also very minute. It's there, off course, but it's not like she instantly loses the neutral game (say hi to fTilt, upTilt and Jab)
 

Impax

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
154
So, Frostbite is this month. Anyone know the tiering of the event? I suspect S Tier, but I'm not entirely sure.

Also, I'm sorry, I am going to have to strongly disargee that Failnaught is better than Phantom. Phantom bodyblocks projectles, Zelda does not have to commit like Byleth does, she can release it fast, it's strong, it two frames, Zelda is free to move around and threaten with 50/50 scenarios, and while he can't cancel it into a defenseive option, she can, you know, release it almost instantly and lose pretty much nothing as it either hits the opponent, or forces them to shield/spotdodge as it covers jumps and if it doesn't cover the jump, they were probably trying to land and you shouldn't have used it in the first place.
Its s tier.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Spring_2020_PGRU
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
The Smash community is as divided on Byleth's tier position in this gamevas much as the FE community is divided about certian characters from Three Houses.

It does make sense considering both Byleths strengths and weakness are pretty extreme in both parts
 

BlackInk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
1,368
The Smash community is as divided on Byleth's tier position in this gamevas much as the FE community is divided about certian characters from Three Houses.

It does make sense considering both Byleths strengths and weakness are pretty extreme in both parts
They barely have any severe weaknesses. They do fantastic offstage in almost every category, they can combo very well, their advantage is stupid good, pretty good out of shield options, early kill options, a great combination between shulk aerials and fast options, and they have a pretty good neutral to boot. The characters who actually fits into that strength and weaknesses description are PT and Ness.
 
Last edited:

EliTheFly02

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
2
Pin aside, Corrin is surprisingly intact in Smash Ultimate. Great damage and solid neutral (movement being significantly improved is legit godsend). KOing is harder now that pin isn't just a win button, but the character overall is fairly well rounded. Oh, and recovering takes a bit of effort on your part since you're helpless if your opponent is right in front of you.
I’m currently putting together an extensive article about how ultimate corrin plays differently from smash 4 corrin and I appreciate you taking the time to recognize my under rated and under reped main. I will make sure to post the article here when it’s done but it’s slow in development right now.
 

Heracr055

Smash Ace
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
712
Location
Buena Park, CA
Mhm, by underrated meaning not bottom 10 or worse. Corrin's quite an average character overall, and I don't expect to see any significant changes for her results in 7.0.

Edit: We should rejoice tho since her results in this short span this season are stronger than they've been for the most part in Ultimate so far. So maybe revise "any significant changes for her results" to "a surge in results."
 
Last edited:

EliTheFly02

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
2
Mhm, by underrated meaning not bottom 10 or worse. Corrin's quite an average character overall, and I don't expect to see any significant changes for her results in 7.0.
Yes I have seen a few people saying they are actually below average and that they are not viable on competitive play. Commentators tend to either talk about how they are not good or simply ignore the character due to lack of knowledge. I don’t foresee them needing any buffs or changes, however I would love to see more representation. In my entire school there are a grand total of 2 corrin mains including me, and the others tend to underestimate the character.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Does she now? You don't want to get hit by the early Phantom stages, not even the first stage at mid-percents because if you get hit it has knockback that will allow her to set up another phantom. Note that it also hits airborne opponents in the correct stage. I think people are still underselling the knockback buff this move has received, it's not just there for killing but it also helps her advantage.

The move still has its issues, it struggles against opponents that play the retreat-game against (:ultfalcon::ultroy:) or float above it (:ultpeach:) and chars that have projectiles that go through the Phantom (:ultrichter:, kinda :ultrob:) or are fast by default (:ultyounglink::ultfalco::ultdarkpit::ultpit:).
This point gets invalidated if you set the Phantom up in front of her but that tech is still mostly unused.
Don't mention reflectors, you'll get punished for using them (getting grabbed also invalidates :ultpalutena::ultjoker:attempts), unless you're :ultvillager::ultisabelle: but even they have to commit.


In fact, because of that, you have to release it early in these MUs to catch them of-guard. Phantom hits fast if released. It's not a bad thing to do. It still denies space for the opposing character and if you hit them then it's even better.
The cooldown phase is also very minute. It's there, off course, but it's not like she instantly loses the neutral game (say hi to fTilt, upTilt and Jab)
I would respond personally but this post covers pretty much what I was going to say perfectly.
Thank you.
 

Nemesis561

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
186
They barely have any severe weaknesses. They do fantastic offstage in almost every category, they can combo very well, their advantage is stupid good, pretty good out of shield options, early kill options, a great combination between shulk aerials and fast options, and they have a pretty good neutral to boot. The characters who actually fits into that strength and weaknesses description are PT and Ness.
Barely any severe weaknesses? How about their pathetic ground speed? Or the fact that this character is going to get absolutely massacred by the small, quick characters with great frame data? Also am I missing something, this character has a great combo game? I've been out of the loop for a few days so maybe I'm ignorant to this, but can you explain how they combo very well? Also their advantage state is not "stupid good". Yes its solid due to very good up tilt and up air but their awful air speed severely limits how great it could have been.

I'm just not seeing anything you're saying at all. How is their out of shield game and neutral pretty good? They both seem subpar. Sorry but I feel like you're just blinded by the fact that you like the character (which I do too btw!)
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
They barely have any severe weaknesses.
Byleth has several severe weaknesses that can prevent her from doing much in a lot of matchups:
  • Probably the 2nd worst overall mobility in the game
  • No good escape options in disadvantage (outside of maybe up-b which is incredibly situational)
  • Not a lot of good close-up options (outside of n-air, d-tilt, and jab)
  • Can struggle against pressure
  • Lack of retreating options
  • Fastest OOS option is frame 9. OOS options in general are below average in terms of startup lag
  • Lack of good camping options
  • No good answer to the opponent's camping options
  • Poor approach options
  • Mediocre combo options
  • Struggles to hit smaller characters with her spear based moves (F-smash, f-air, b-air)
  • Edit: Several moves that are incredibly unsafe on shield
  • Edit: Mediocre frame-data overall
if she only had one of these weaknesses, that would be fine, but having all of these weaknesses compounds to make a character who struggles in way too many situations to be good.

Most characters can change their gameplan to adapt to Byleth or their usual gameplan is perfect for working around hers already. Meanwhile, Byleth's gameplan all comes down to keeping the opponent out and if they get in, she is pretty helpless to do much of anything.
 
Last edited:

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,580
Byleth has several severe weaknesses that can prevent her from doing much in a lot of matchups:
  • Probably the 2nd worst overall mobility in the game.
I actually think she's got the 3rd worst overall mobility, IMO she's better than both :ultincineroar: and :ultganondorf: for that.
 
Last edited:

MrGameguycolor

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,240
Location
Somewhere in this Universe
NNID
MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
7681-9716-5789
I actually think she's got the 3rd worst overall mobility, IMO she's better than both :ultincineroar: and :ultganondorf: for that.
IMO, she's tied with :ultdoc: at 3rd.

Compared to him she has:
  • A quicker Initial Dash (1.537 < 1.8)
  • Slightly faster Walk & Run Speed (0.917 / 1.397 < 0.97 / 1.43)
  • Lower Jump Height
  • Slightly Faster Faller (1.5 / 2.4 < 1.6 / 2.56)
  • Weaker Air Acceleration and Speed (0.0611 / 0.923 > 0.053 / 0.89)
Faster on the ground but slower in the air.
 

williamsga555

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 8, 2015
Messages
251
Location
Japan
Playing as Byleth reminds me a lot of playing D3, actually, for better or worse. There are several obvious discrepancies between the two, but a lot of their general gameflow and characteristics aren't terribly dissimilar.

Even ignoring the obvious "big disjoints with big damage" and "they slow" similarities, they both have...
  • Lingering/Active nairs that act as combo starters (with nearly identical startup and active frames, too! Byleth's starts 1 frame faster, D3's lasts 2 frames longer)
  • Excellent air-to-air aerials (including nearly identical data for up-air and dair...Byleth gets a strong nod for having a significantly faster bair, though)
  • A focus on ledgetrapping and offstage pressure, marred by a limited neutral and bad approach options
    • To wit, most of their strings and bread-and-butter options are based on horizontal knockback and pushing the opponent towards said ledgetrapping and offstage scenarios
  • Laughably poor disadvantage states (I'd argue Byleth's is actually worse, but neither are good)
  • All-in-all mediocre reward from grab (both have decent low-mid % followups, but neither have reliable kill throws nor kill confirms)
  • Projectiles with high reward that force an action from the opponent (granted, this also applies to a lot of other characters)
  • Gimmicky "charge" moves with super armor and massive damage with simple mixups (Byleth can turn and drop through platforms, D3 can move a bit)
The main tradeoffs are interesting: Byleth has a more rounded neutral and (honestly) better raw killing potential against competent opponents, while D3 has access to more movement-based mixups (multijump fastfaller) and much better survivability.

So what, are you saying Byleth is about equal in capability to D3?

No, I'm a little more optimistic about Byleth than that. Having a more rounded neutral is particularly important given that both characters have pretty bad disadvantage states. I'm just musing over why I've been enjoying Byleth more than expected. These two, I believe, have a very similar base gameplan: make the opponent jump, swat them for jumping, then ledgetrap. I think both will struggle against anyone with a good ground game coupled with strong burst mobility options.

Going to make an early call, by the by, that Greninja might end up being Byleth's worst matchup in time. Byleth hates the kind of neutral that Greninja is capable of (burst ground options with strong reward + an actual projectile to camp with, all on a character who is capable of low-profiling things). Mewtwo would theoretically also be nightmarish if he wasn't so damn large.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
In any case, she struggles in the mobility department. Characters like:ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultfox::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultjoker::ultkirby::ultmario::ultmetaknight::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultsonic::ultyoshi: are just going to destroy her with a combination of mobility, framedata, and small size. Several of those are major competitors in the metagame.
 
Last edited:

Phoenix_is_OK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
103
Failnaught has a really interesting relationship with Reflectors.

It's basically impossible to surprise anyone with Failnaught--any human could react to it and get a reflector out by frame 45 if they so choose. And yeah, if Failnaught is reflected, Byleth is getting a lot of pain. But Byleth can cancel Failnaught so generously, that she is likely to come out ahead on anyone who comitted to their reflector. I posted a list of Reflector commitment times, which is not directly Byleth's advantage in this situation but gives you a rough idea.



Of course, if you do accidentally lock into Failnaught 2, the following characters just delete Byleth from the game:
:ultdoc::ultfalco::ultfox::ulthero:*:ultjoker:*:ultkrool::ultmario::ultmewtwo::ultswordfighter:*:ultgunner:*:ultpalutena::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrob::ultwolf::ultzelda:

These get their respective gimmicks activated:
:ultjoker::ultincineroar::ultlucas::ultgnw::ultness:

...and these characters can also get a very potent Counter (or similar) if they can, in 2 seconds, just make it into melee range.
:ultbanjokazooie::ultbayonetta::ultcorrin::ultike::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultbrawler:*:ultshulk::ultroy::ultchrom:

Note that these guys can't actually do anything special with Failnaught 2, since it's purely a hitbox:
:ultisabelle::ultkingdedede::ultrosalina::ultvillager:
Oh god pocketing Failnaught 2 sounds horrifying

IMO: Byleth just isn't good. He's just too damn slow to be any threat, and what few options he has are either mediocre or don't work well with the rest of his kit being frame 93. I don't really see him winning any matchups against faster characters, hell even Bayonetta can run circles around him.
 
Last edited:

AxelVDP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
96
I actually think she's got the 3rd worst overall mobility, IMO she's better than both :ultincineroar: and :ultganondorf: for that.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just using this post as a sort of springboard:
When talking -mobility- I think it's important to understand that raw mobility stats like dash speed, walk speed, dash length etc do not represent the whole picture, I think what matters most is the threat zone a character is able to cover around him.
Incineroar for instance has a pretty amazing dash attack that kinda circumvents his bad attributes, ganon has wizkick and big hitboxes, and so on.
a character could have **** mobility params but have a move like zss' flip kick, or have hitboxes so big that he can hit you from a mile away, meaning he does not need to close as much distance to still be a threat (which is kinda the case with Byleth).
I think these arguments need to be taken into account when talking such things.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
which is why greninja is painful. He sits where he is reacting and she is guessing. Not a good look
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
In any case, she struggles in the mobility department. Characters like:ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultfox::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultjoker::ultkirby::ultmario::ultmetaknight::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultsonic::ultyoshi: are just going to destroy her with a combination of mobility, framedata, and small size. Several of those are major competitors in the metagame.
Let's add :ultlink::ultyounglink::ulttoonlink::ultzss::ultfalco::ultsheik::ultroy: and :ultchrom: to that list. She's going to struggle a lot against rushdown and zoners as well (and :ultfalco: because he just does well in general verses these types of characters with crap disadvantage).
 

Terotrous

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
2,419
Location
Ontario
3DS FC
1762-2767-5898
I'm seeing a fair amount of Corrin talk in the last couple pages. I've actually always kind of liked the character in Ult, but I agree that she is super bad, probably bottom 5. What I'm curious to know is what people think makes her so bad. I've always felt that her neutral is actually fine, she has fairly decent hitboxes and frame data, she just doesn't do much damage and doesn't ever kill you. The fact that she needs to get you to like 150% before any of her moves start killing. while not having any better than average survivability herself just forces you to win neutral so much more than your opponent to have a chance. That being said, if we agree that the main problem with the character is just damage and knockback values, that seems absurdly easy to patch and I'm surprised they haven't done it already. What I'm curious about is if people think there's also significant holes in her overall gameplan that aren't fixed as easily as tweaking a few values.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
I’m currently putting together an extensive article about how ultimate corrin plays differently from smash 4 corrin and I appreciate you taking the time to recognize my under rated and under reped main. I will make sure to post the article here when it’s done but it’s slow in development right now.
Buddy, look at the date for when I made my post

Suffice it to say, I don't feel that way about the character anymore
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,230
I'm seeing a fair amount of Corrin talk in the last couple pages. I've actually always kind of liked the character in Ult, but I agree that she is super bad, probably bottom 5. What I'm curious to know is what people think makes her so bad. I've always felt that her neutral is actually fine, she has fairly decent hitboxes and frame data, she just doesn't do much damage and doesn't ever kill you. The fact that she needs to get you to like 150% before any of her moves start killing. while not having any better than average survivability herself just forces you to win neutral so much more than your opponent to have a chance. That being said, if we agree that the main problem with the character is just damage and knockback values, that seems absurdly easy to patch and I'm surprised they haven't done it already. What I'm curious about is if people think there's also significant holes in her overall gameplan that aren't fixed as easily as tweaking a few values.
The main issue with Corrin, aside from meh damage and struggling to KO, is that she has some mobility issues. She is not the slowest character in the world, but her mobility is overall lackluster. This, combined with a lack of any tools to deal with camping similar to other swordies, makes her approach pretty lackluster as a whole.

Two other FE characters like lackluster mobility is Robin and Byleth, both of which are two of the overall slowest characters in the game.
However, Robin has very versatile projectiles and Levin Swords' absurd KO power, and Byleth has extensive range and power in a lot of his own moves, to help alleviate their weaknesses (particularly with Robin's case, I am not too sold on Byleth either).

Corrin, in the other hand, has trouble KO'ing and his own projectile is lackluster. Her overall playstyle and moveset doesn't mesh well with her mobility, while her reward for actually approaching his not that great whatsoever. Her hitboxes are decent, but not groundbreaking (her neutral air hitbox is somewhat inconsistent due to not hitting all around her at all times unlike Byleth's n-air), while her actual good hitboxes are locked away on moves that are rather slow.

The overall issue with Corrin is that her advantage state is not good enough to compensate for her difficulty approaching the opponent, while having very little to no tools to force approaches, as well as her KO power and recovery not being great either, only adding more problems to deal with. Her advantage state is not bad, but similar to Pit, is not too amazing either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is interesting to see Corrin viability conversations pop-up again after Cosmos' reverse 3-0 against Dabuz, but I am not really sold on one upset being the game-changer for the character, especially since Dabuz was obviously not prepared for the matchup. Cosmos hasn't yet used Corrin ever since that set, and knowing how badly Light bodied Nairo's Ganondorf the second time Light encountered the character, I am not sure if it will result the same way. Other lower tiered characters like Zelda, Sheik, and Dr. Mario getting buffs in 7.0 doesn't exactly help that case either.
 
Last edited:

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Speaking of the 7.0.0 patch and Corrin. She is likely going to be many characters that may suffer and fall down harder from the likely power creep due to other low and mid tiers getting signifgantly buffed while they got nothing. So they may be now low-mid or low-tier now

:ultfalcon::ultrobinf::ultmewtwo::ultsimon: /:ultrichter::ultbayonetta::ultridley::ultjigglypuff::ultkrool::ultkingdedede::ultganondorf: as well as quite a few others
 
Last edited:

Daisycakes

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 4, 2019
Messages
50
Every time the subject of Pit's viability is broached, people always tend to overthink it.

Broadly speaking, a character needs to excel at Damage, KO ability and neutral in order to be good. Pit is lackluster at all 3. It has nothing to do with him being an all-rounder who doesn't excel at anything. Pit's damage isn't impressive, he lacks viable kill setups/strong aerial finishers and his neutral is also lacking due to his poor aerial mobility.

Until the Smash team addresses this, Pit will remain a bad character.
Lucina’s damage and KO isn’t impressive (her aerials deal less knockback than Pit’s), she has a lack of kill setups, and whilst her aerial and ground mobility are good, her active frames on her hitboxes are not. Also she struggles to land. Is Lucina a low tier? No.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
Lucina makes up for that with an absurdly good neutral game as well as fantastic edgeguarding and a plethora of useful options to make it in the higher tiers. Her damage and KO power may not be excellent, but they are sufficient.
 
Last edited:

Daisycakes

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 4, 2019
Messages
50
Does she now? You don't want to get hit by the early Phantom stages, not even the first stage at mid-percents because if you get hit it has knockback that will allow her to set up another phantom. Note that it also hits airborne opponents in the correct stage. I think people are still underselling the knockback buff this move has received, it's not just there for killing but it also helps her advantage.

The move still has its issues, it struggles against opponents that play the retreat-game against (:ultfalcon::ultroy::ultchrom:) or float above it (:ultpeach:, :ultdaisy:) and chars that have projectiles that go through the Phantom (:ultsimon:, :ultrichter:, kinda :ultrob:) or are fast by default (:ultyounglink::ultfalco::ultdarkpit::ultpit:).
This point gets invalidated if you set the Phantom up in front of her but that tech is still mostly unused.
Don't mention reflectors, you'll get punished for using them (getting grabbed also invalidates :ultpalutena::ultjoker:attempts), unless you're :ultvillager::ultisabelle: but even they have to commit.


In fact, because of that, you have to release it early in these MUs to catch them of-guard. Phantom hits fast if released. It's not a bad thing to do. It still denies space for the opposing character and if you hit them then it's even better.
The cooldown phase is also very minute. It's there, off course, but it's not like she instantly loses the neutral game (say hi to fTilt, upTilt and Jab)
As Daisy i often struggle to deal with Phantom because of the sword’s reach cutting upwards.
 
Last edited:

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Lucina’s damage and KO isn’t impressive (her aerials deal less knockback than Pit’s), she has a lack of kill setups, and whilst her aerial and ground mobility are good, her active frames on her hitboxes are not. Also she struggles to land. Is Lucina a low tier? No.
Lucina's damage and KO power is not impressive? Like what if you compare her to :ultganondorf:? Lucina still has that f-smash that can kill at the ledge around 80-90 and a very quick and powerful bair.
Lucina have the damage racking potential or quite the raw power of Chroy. But she more than makes up for it by having. vastly superior recovery . Being one of the best edgeguarders in the game while simulateniously being very hard to edgeguard also works well in her favour

If Lucina as a top 10 character, then she is very close to it
 
Last edited:

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
If we're talking about having cheese that takes stocks really early like :ultmario: UAir to FAir setups or :ultjoker: Arsene DAir to USmash... then :ultlucina: doesn't really have that; as far as problems with outright KOing are concerned, though, Lucina's got edgeguards, Dancing Blade/NAir/DAir KO set-ups, a frame 7 BAir that's only -5 on block, and a frame 1 combo-breaker/frame 5 OoS that kills. She does look fairly well equipped for the most part as far as taking stocks are concerned.

Funny enough, Lucina is still doing very well despite not being talked about a lot: Mr. E got Top 8 at Glitch 8 and then Top 24 at EVO Japan 2020 soon after, and beyond that, we had TWO Lucina's in Top 16 at EVO Japan, thanks to both ProtoBanham and Etsuji.

She's currently ranked 13th on Season 2's OrionStats (which just got updated today lol): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

EDIT: Byleth has been added and already has gotten a small head start, earning herself 3 points and rising above :ultpiranha::ultganondorf::ultbrawler::ultswordfighter::ultmarth::ultmewtwo::ultkrool: and :ultjigglypuff:.
 
Last edited:

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
I dunno, I'd call nair 1 to fsmash and rising DB1 - Nair 1 -> smash a kind of cheese. I mean these things have loose definitions... but Lucina definitely has decent KO power. she can get the classic marthritis but also has a stock cap throw and bair starts murdering you anywhere on the stage at decent damages.

Having a raw kill move vs a confirm has advantages and disadvantages, but when you have a sword having a raw kill move is nice because you can go for a trade or to stuff out their hitbox.
 

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
453
Location
Narnia, Canada
If you guys want talk about Lucina's actual weaknesses instead of driving the tired old "she has no BS"(which is patently false) or "she has troubles killing", look at her burst range. Someone pointed this out where with her average-ish dash attack and run speed, the range she can immediately threaten is limited which restricts her to reactive play since she can't rip turns from opponents as apposed to Chroy who can run at you and smother you with buttons in an instant. She is still very good since a lot of characters have difficulty breaking through her combination of pokes, edge-guards/ ledge-coverage and her cheater up-b OOS, though if people say she's underwhelming, I feel this a more accurate reason why even if they don't know it.
 
Last edited:

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
^^True. Lucina probably isn’t the best swordie in the game, I personally think she’s behind :ultroy::ultchrom::ultshulk: for that but still a very good, maybe top 20 character (top 23 at worst) and overall great.

Again, Ultimate is packed with amazing characters. :ultfox::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultjoker::ultmario::ultlucina::ultmegaman::ultgnw::ultolimar::ultpacman::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultpokemontrainer::ultrob::ultroy::ultchrom::ultshulk::ultsnake::ultwario::ultwolf::ultzss: in particular are fantastic and I could see all of them as top tiers, with :ultbowser::ultlink::ultmarth::ultness::ultrosalina::ultryu::ultken::ultsamus::ultsonic::ult_terry::ulttoonlink::ultyoshi::ultyounglink: all being quite good as well. Meaning Ult easily has the largest top character diversity of any Smash game.
 
Top Bottom