Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NotLiquid]

If Greninja is a bad character, this game has around 70 bad characters.


In DLC trends, Hero is still on track to fulfill my prediction of dropping out of the top 50 on OrionStats within a year. Salem is the only thing barely keeping him top 50 atm; wothout Salem he'd probably not make top 60.


Banjo, on the other hand, isn't really going up in accordance with common opinion of how good Banjo is. (And I agree; I think Banjo is downright solid.)

Honestly, I just think Banjo is hard, and in a non-flashy way that fails to attract players who gravitate towards (and get the most out of) hard characters. It's an usual "honest" hard, a difficulty that comes from having 20 great moves and 0 amazing ones, mastery of zoning and boxing alike, and a demanding attention to both consistency and reads. Banjo's kit is not lacking in reward for any of this--he doesn't at all feel like a traditional "work twice as hard for the same result" low tier. He's just a very broad character who demands a lot from his player.

Contrast with Pokemon Trainer, who I'd say is the most similar character at a very abstract level but ends up having really straightforward goals at any given moment.


Terry continues to be outclassed by Ken in results, even pre-buff.

I think with characters like Terry and Banjo, regardless of whether their preconceived qualities are, the problem kinda boils down to a diminishing returns factor that we're going to likely keep seeing with the next set of DLC characters in terms of what "niche" they're supposed to cover. The more characters we get, the more likely a lot of them will be left in the dust simply because overchoice make us default to dominant strategy. The exception would be if a character is so good that we start seeing waves be made in the meta (Joker) or if a character just has a very specific kit which isn't quite replicable by any one character up to that point (Hero is a decent example), albeit the latter point is something that eventually becomes tuned out into a bit of a normalcy as eventually the "novelty" of those picks wear out.

It's actually why I'm not surprised Byleth, despite arguably being the "worst" character of the pass on paper, is actually seeing quite a bit of pros trying to make her tick - and doing a halfway decent job at it no less. The closest analogue to the character I can think of is Belmont, but even so that's not a character that has anywhere near the advantage state as Byleth which offsets the lackluster neutral/disadvantage. She's a wholly unique character that makes it fascinating for some pros to start digging in how to make her effective, though I expect even she will drop off in that perception before too long once the elements that make her desirable start being covered by other characters who are well rounded in areas she isn't.

With Terry, I think he's a strong character who's shockingly honest and well balanced for the kind of kit he has. The thing is, he's not going to court the shoto audience just because he has inputs, since he plays nothing like them (and that audience already puts hundreds of man hours in to perfect their cheese). He's not going to court people who look for a strong neutral because there's plenty of top tier candidates who operate at a similar "wavelength" who require a lot less effort (i.e Wolf). While his Supers make for an incredibly hype comeback factor, it does the rare thing in terms of character comeback mechanics where it's not conducive to his game plan (as in you're not fighting an uphill battle without it). The only thing it really solidifies is what sets him apart compared to the characters people like to compare him to; shotos want to run a sprint, whereas Terry wants to run a marathon.

 

[Y2Kay]

If you want quantifiable numbers, Joker is 6th on Orionstats while Greninja is 9th.

I'm not sure what more this character has to do to be recognised as a top tier. Greninja has great overall results, great wins over individual top players and no real bracket demons since even the Snake MU has improved significantly. He has achieved all of this whilst lacking top 20 player rep.

I’m really scratching my head trying to find an answer for this too. Greninja was ragged on so much for not having good enough results throughout smash 4. He was often dismissed as an all theory character almost like Shulk was in that game.

Now here we are in Ult. The character has been top 10-15 in results for a majority of the game’s life span. And...nobody really cares. Still regarded as high tier by most, but almost never top tier. It’s mad weird. I still see Gren get ranked below characters like Ness, Young Link, etc all the time.

And you’re probably right about Back Air lol. That move is sooo slept on. It does so much for the character.

 

[BitBitio]

Joker does not exceed Greninja by miles at all, particularly after the nerfs. Greninja is probably one of Joker's worst MUs given that he's one of the few characters who is faster than Joker overall, allowing him to both chase Joker in disadvantage and run away from Arsene. He has plenty of kill power as well as a good recovery to avoid offstage down guns nonsense. See the amount of trouble Venia gave Tweek, a top 5 player in the world, at Return to Yoshi's Island; he came the closest to beating him out of anyone at the tournament with a narrow 3-2 loss. It was also pre-nerf and Venia wasn't even camping Arsene.

If you want quantifiable numbers, Joker is 6th on Orionstats while Greninja is 9th.

I'm not sure what more this character has to do to be recognised as a top tier. Greninja has great overall results, great wins over individual top players and no real bracket demons since even the Snake MU has improved significantly. He has achieved all of this whilst lacking top 20 player rep.

Greninja's biggest weakness (OoS options) is mitigated almost entirely by his mobility in most MUs. Only two characters (Fox and Sheik) are able to abuse this weakness consistently since they are the only characters with good shield pressure tools who are fast enough to consistently corner Greninja. Most characters with good shield pressure simply aren't fast enough to consistently catch Greninja and those that are (Sonic, Falcon, Mac lol) don't have particularly good shield pressure tools.

Not only does Greninja have great results, he has strengths which go a long way toward mitigating his weaknesses in the majority of his MUs. His position as a top 10 character seems blindingly obvious to me.



Bair is easily Greninja's best move in my opinion. Dash attack is crazy is in its own right and potentially the best move in the game at what it does, that being callout/whiff punishing with the subtle ability to be microspaced as it can be used at any point in a dash. However, it is held back significantly by its lack of safety on shield. Bair, on the other hand, is a quintessential all-purpose top tier move. It can combo, kill, edgeguard, pressure shields, catch jumps and has a generous, fairly active hitbox all while being frame 5. It's one of the most underrated moves in the game.

Okay, a few comments: When they were talking about Joker and Greninja, he wasn't talking about the MU. A character can be miles better than another and yet have a bad MU vs them. Peach is "miles better" than GnW, yet GnW does quite well in their MU. is waaaaaay better than yet Kirby still has a decent MU vs him. Point is, Joker is better than Greninja, even post-7.0.0 IMHO, even if his MU might be losing to Greninja.
OrionStats are a guideline, not scripture. Players are still saying Pika is the best in the game and yet the rat has high-tier results as of now. Plus, at the beginning of the season, Orionstats results are very iffy. Imma wait for Frostbite before I take it completely seriously.
Greninja is recognized as a top tier by several players. The OoS issue just tends to make them rank Greninja lower than other top tiers because of GnW salt.
bair is really good. Truth
Greninja though, top 23 at worst.

 

[Rizen]

A few people at a tournament said got buffed. Were they pulling my leg?

 

[BitBitio]

A few people at a tournament said got buffed. Were they pulling my leg?

Better zair and killpower on up air and dash attack I believe.
Edit: Not dash attack, but up smash. Lol

 

[KirbySquad101]

A few people at a tournament said got buffed. Were they pulling my leg?

The official changes are right here... and they're pretty spicy lol.

 

[BlackInk]

I think with characters like Terry and Banjo, regardless of whether their preconceived qualities are, the problem kinda boils down to a diminishing returns factor that we're going to likely keep seeing with the next set of DLC characters in terms of what "niche" they're supposed to cover. The more characters we get, the more likely a lot of them will be left in the dust simply because overchoice make us default to dominant strategy. The exception would be if a character is so good that we start seeing waves be made in the meta (Joker) or if a character just has a very specific kit which isn't quite replicable by any one character up to that point (Hero is a decent example), albeit the latter point is something that eventually becomes tuned out into a bit of a normalcy as eventually the "novelty" of those picks wear out.

It's actually why I'm not surprised Byleth, despite arguably being the "worst" character of the pass on paper, is actually seeing quite a bit of pros trying to make her tick - and doing a halfway decent job at it no less. The closest analogue to the character I can think of is Belmont, but even so that's not a character that has anywhere near the advantage state as Byleth which offsets the lackluster neutral/disadvantage. She's a wholly unique character that makes it fascinating for some pros to start digging in how to make her effective, though I expect even she will drop off in that perception before too long once the elements that make her desirable start being covered by other characters who are well rounded in areas she isn't.

With Terry, I think he's a strong character who's shockingly honest and well balanced for the kind of kit he has. The thing is, he's not going to court the shoto audience just because he has inputs, since he plays nothing like them (and that audience already puts hundreds of man hours in to perfect their cheese). He's not going to court people who look for a strong neutral because there's plenty of top tier candidates who operate at a similar "wavelength" who require a lot less effort (i.e Wolf). While his Supers make for an incredibly hype comeback factor, it does the rare thing in terms of character comeback mechanics where it's not conducive to his game plan (as in you're not fighting an uphill battle without it). The only thing it really solidifies is what sets him apart compared to the characters people like to compare him to; shotos want to run a sprint, whereas Terry wants to run a marathon.

I actually feel like the dlc characters are going to be a mess. Byleth is far more likely to return or get buffs (like the up-b doesn’t put Byleth in disadvantage after 50%) because they are Fire Emblem, those other dlc characters are not going to have that privilege since Nintendo is too focused on shoving new characters to this game just to abandon them in a later smash title. It’s already bad enough we had over 70 damn characters in this game to make this meta a huge mess.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Interesting that Leffen thinks that Zelda could be the best character in the game if she had a dewcent nAir but because she hasn't she put her in lower-mid tier.
But then again, Palutena would also be nowhere near as good if she hadn't this nAir.

Phantom is probably still a better special than any of Palutena's though...

 

[BlackInk]

Interesting that Leffen thinks that Zelda could be the best character in the game if she had a dewcent nAir but because she hasn't she put her in lower-mid tier.
But then again, Palutena would also be nowhere near as good if she hadn't this nAir.

Phantom is probably still a better special than any of Palutena's though...

Speaking of nairs, how did Byleth’s nair beat Palu’s nair? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V9MgE6JTDuc 1:35

 

[FullMoon]

So this is me crawling out of the woodwork just to give my opinion on the Greninja talk because that's what I do.

Full disclaimer that I'm not anywhere near a competitive Smash player anymore and mostly play the game casually now. That being said, I still find competitive Smash fascinating and keep up with some of the tournament results and, in fact, I've been keeping up with this very thread since page 1. This is mostly going to be an outside perspective, not even that of a spectator because I unfortunately don't have the time to actually watch tournaments and stuff.

Anyway. Greninja is obviously good. I don't think most people would disagree on that front. The character improved a lot in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate and see consistent enough results that he found himself at 10th place at Orion Stats. Out of 75 characters! That's actually a lot better than I personally expected.

But I think the main reason general perception of Greninja isn't as positive as the raw stats would paint him is because, for the most part, while Greninja's results are consistent, he has yet to make a real breakout in a tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the big S tier events, Greninja doesn't very often place at top 8 and even when he does, he usually stays at 7th (I think Stroder got 5th once? I can't remember) which is pretty great! But compared to other characters who had been going under the radar for a while (like G&W, Mario and now ROB from what I'm seeing here) who've gotten placements at top 4 or even outright won events that's... not as impressive, sadly.

That can be attributed to Greninja lacking in a top 20 player or something along those lines and that's true, but sadly while it makes sense that doesn't really do much to affect the public perception. As it is, Greninja comes across as a character who consistently does good, but doesn't have any real outstanding displays to leave an impact in the overall playerbase and the notable things that happen are few and far between. For a character like this, I feel like high tier makes sense for his overall placement. People know the character is good, but he never comes across as particularly incredible either.

That's it, basically. I might've actually gotten everything wrong and wasted the time of anyone reading this but whatever the case I'll just go back to lurking in the shadows. Byeee

 

[TennisBall]

I do think that Greninja is a top tier, maybe bottom of top tier. My point wasn't that Greninja wasn't great, I probably could have worded it better, so that's on me. The point I was trying to make is that it wasn't fair to compare a character's viablitly by comparing them to one of the best characters in the game, which I probably should have just said. My bad.

On a different topic, Samsora has been practicing for a while now against , even going as so far as to play friendlies with Maister online, do you think that's it's gonna change anything?

 

[Tri Knight]

A few people at a tournament said got buffed. Were they pulling my leg?

My mans got a frame 4 jab, frame 9 zair, stronger fthrow launch, and stronger killpower on upair and upsmash (like 10-12% difference from what Leffen has said in video).

He still has to work for his kills even with the KO strength buffs but his cqc game feels a lot better now. Zair is gonna be a huge tool in the future for poking, spacing, and combos (zair to upsmash seems to work pretty good from what I've tested and has kill potential). I love these buffs because it focused on his cqc game which shows what their mindset is with Young Link going forward.

I think the buffs are enough to definitely solidify him as a high tier now.

 

[Anomika]

Like how Leffen said, Young Link having a faster jab is definitely a great buff for him. From 6 > 4 frame startup, which helps with the grounded games since his other grounded moves unremarkable startup, it's more solid option in neutral, is more reliable as "get off me" and most importantly, he can pressure shields better with aerials to jab (he has 3 aerials that are -3 on shield and have 6 frames of landing lag), no longer having to spotdodge as often to shield grab attempts. On top of all that, it's hard to punish on reaction since it's -10 on shield (and it's even harder to punish if he does jab1 > jab2 since the latter is -7 on shield, giving him more mix-ups). It's not the fastest jab in terms of startup so it can't combo break as easily as frame 3 or faster jabs, but for a disjointed move with very low lag, it's certainly a buff Young Link mains should take the advantage of, alongside other buffs like zair.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, I just think Banjo is hard, and in a non-flashy way that fails to attract players who gravitate towards (and get the most out of) hard characters. It's an usual "honest" hard, a difficulty that comes from having 20 great moves and 0 amazing ones, mastery of zoning and boxing alike, and a demanding attention to both consistency and reads. Banjo's kit is not lacking in reward for any of this--he doesn't at all feel like a traditional "work twice as hard for the same result" low tier. He's just a very broad character who demands a lot from his player.

To be completely honest, ever since the first time I played Banjo, I've always had the impression that the character is bad. I never posted about it because I agree that the character seems good on paper so I was like "well it's probably just me not understanding the character enough", but every time I try to give the character another shot I have the same impression, and seeing Raito whip out Banjo at Evo Japan and be soundly defeated despite claiming to be the best Banjo kind of reinforced that idea in my mind.

If I had to guess, I'd probably say that the lack of any single overwhelmingly powerful tool significantly limits Banjo's ability to control the neutral, so he's basically stuck playing the game the way the opponent wants to. For most of the cast, they have one or two moves which are super strong and you know when fighting them you have to kind of play around those moves, but I'd be hard-pressed to say what those are for Banjo. I guess it's intended to be Wonderwing, but it has so many drawbacks (fairly slow startup, super punishable, limited use count) that I feel it doesn't really exude that same sense of control that many other characters strong moves do. I think the devs thought this move was going to be super busted so they wanted to make sure it had counterplay, but due to the generally low committment of most moves in Smash Ultimate I don't think it's actually nearly as potent as it initially appeared. You almost always have to make a good read to get a hit with it and if you fail to make that read you're getting hit back just as hard (in a certain sense, I guess it's actually kind of like Rest that way, another move the devs are very careful to make sure is never too good). If you compare this to the strong moves of most other characters that they can spam with relative impunity there's a clear difference here.

Of course, I could be way off, but I don't think the fact that Banjo has few players and limited results is purely a coincidence, particularly given the popularity of the character and how heavily requested they were among the fanbase.

Incidentally, I don't think he's in any way like, bottom-tier level bad, he clearly has some stuff going for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's around bottom 20.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Banjo to me falls into the same (no pun intended) Pitfalls as /. Where there design seems to be biult around having a well-rounded kit and many "solid" moves but have nothing paticullarly overly powerful or amazing, which unfortunately has never really ben a recipe to success in most Smash games. They seemd designed to be honest, maybe TOO honest. However tools are actually all solid and functional unlike the Pits to are pretty underwhelming perhaps then they were in Smash 4. But when most Top-Tiers have one or more notable powerful tools in their arsenal that they can use without having without too must risk or commitment, it hard not to see why Banjo would fall off in interest

 

[NairWizard]

When are we going to be honest and admit that what we mean by "honest" is actually "weak"?

 

[Y2Kay]

So this is me crawling out of the woodwork just to give my opinion on the Greninja talk because that's what I do.

Full disclaimer that I'm not anywhere near a competitive Smash player anymore and mostly play the game casually now. That being said, I still find competitive Smash fascinating and keep up with some of the tournament results and, in fact, I've been keeping up with this very thread since page 1. This is mostly going to be an outside perspective, not even that of a spectator because I unfortunately don't have the time to actually watch tournaments and stuff.

Anyway. Greninja is obviously good. I don't think most people would disagree on that front. The character improved a lot in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate and see consistent enough results that he found himself at 10th place at Orion Stats. Out of 75 characters! That's actually a lot better than I personally expected.

But I think the main reason general perception of Greninja isn't as positive as the raw stats would paint him is because, for the most part, while Greninja's results are consistent, he has yet to make a real breakout in a tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the big S tier events, Greninja doesn't very often place at top 8 and even when he does, he usually stays at 7th (I think Stroder got 5th once? I can't remember) which is pretty great! But compared to other characters who had been going under the radar for a while (like G&W, Mario and now ROB from what I'm seeing here) who've gotten placements at top 4 or even outright won events that's... not as impressive, sadly.

That can be attributed to Greninja lacking in a top 20 player or something along those lines and that's true, but sadly while it makes sense that doesn't really do much to affect the public perception. As it is, Greninja comes across as a character who consistently does good, but doesn't have any real outstanding displays to leave an impact in the overall playerbase and the notable things that happen are few and far between. For a character like this, I feel like high tier makes sense for his overall placement. People know the character is good, but he never comes across as particularly incredible either.

That's it, basically. I might've actually gotten everything wrong and wasted the time of anyone reading this but whatever the case I'll just go back to lurking in the shadows. Byeee

F-Full Moon? I haven’t heard that name in eons..... Glad to see you bro.

 

[Vycoul]

IMO, it's pretty clear that Banjo & Kazooie are middle of the road, bordering on being outright lackluster. I'm glad to see them consistently placed around mid tier in most tierlists recently. From day one it was obvious that they weren't high tier, yet that's where I saw a lot of people sticking them.

I think Wonder Wing is designed to be their trump-card, but it's rather undertuned for one on one matches. The move is basically five tickets to victory in free-for-alls though, which makes me very doubtful that WW itself will ever see any buffs.

 

[Terotrous]

When are we going to be honest and admit that what we mean by "honest" is actually "weak"?

When I use the term honest, I generally mean that they have to get kills using fundamentals rather than some sort of gimmick. For example, if you have to get most of your kills from just sneaking in a smash attack or back air (rather than using a very reliable setup into a kill move), you're probably an honest character.

This is not necessarily bad, for example I think Mario is fairly honest, but he's still clearly quite good. I think an honest character with strong neutral can be high tier (I'm not convinced Mario is top tier). However, an honest character with weak neutral will definitely struggle.

 

[Lacrimosa]

When I use the term honest, I generally mean that they have to get kills using fundamentals rather than some sort of gimmick. For example, if you have to get most of your kills from just sneaking in a smash attack or back air (rather than using a very reliable setup into a kill move), you're probably an honest character.

This is not necessarily bad, for example I think Mario is fairly honest, but he's still clearly quite good. I think an honest character with strong neutral can be high tier (I'm not convinced Mario is top tier). However, an honest character with weak neutral will definitely struggle.

Mario's hitbox sizes make him not honest.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Mario's hitbox sizes make him not honest.

Dark Wizzy and Prodigy shows Mario does have the potential to end stocks early, wither with some "Smash 4 ZSS style" kill ladder combos on platform stages, and setupss into offstage fair spikes. However, many of said examples are character/stage dependent or are only "true" at specific percents.

Also I do not hear it brought up much when discussing Mario, But Sweetspoted F-Smash is actually like crazy strong for how relatively safe and non-commital it is. It can take stocks at around 70-80% at the ledge

 

[Rizen]

The official changes are right here... and they're pretty spicy lol. View attachment 261325

This is huge. The shield size is nice but not super important. The f6>4 jab however is a massive buff. I can't tell you how many times I've been out buttoned as by characters like Banjo who have f4 jabs. YL's slow ground CQC was a weakness that this makes up for. Usmash and Uair were both weak KO moves with Usmash not KOing until around 140% and Uair until 160% so getting buffed will help YL keep up with other characters better. Fthrow killing gives YL a threatening grab at high %s. At low to mid %s YL can Dthrow>Uair for damage but he couldn't kill until 200% with Uthrow. This is another huge change. Zair was useless 95% of the time because it only dealt 4.5% and didn't combo into anything, unlike YL's early boomerang and Fair/Bair 1. This actually makes Zair worth using.

Overall these changes improve YL significantly. He was teetering on the lower edge of high tier but now I feel he's solidly in there. They really buffed him where he needed it.

Were there changes to other characters? Can someone link me the change log?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

MKLeo recently released a Byleth MU chart, He is still pretty optimistic about him/her despite the general opinions of this board and other pro players


I do not think that / lost to Byleth especially considering their recent buffs. There likely even or slightly in Samus/DSamus's favor
is likely also among their worst MU's.
At least he is pretty honest in putting many characters into "I Don't Know Yet", But I can image Speed art being absolute misery for Byleth alive, plus he freely escape any potential up-b follow ups for free just by accessing his Arts menu

 

[KirbySquad101]

Here's the entire patch log: https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSBU)/7.0.0_changelog

The abridged version:

- Shield buffs for a good chunk of the cast, most notably and (who suffered the most from shield poking)
- Bigger buffs for a few select characters: and
- A minor nerf towards and slightly bigger nerfs towards and (though Palutena was partially compensated with a few buffs).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Leo is really super optimistic about her.
Byleth is good against big bodies but projectiles and reflectors are a real pain for Byleth.

 

[Firox]

Mario's hitbox sizes make him not honest.

To be fair, Mario's stubby limbs don't offer him a lot of reach on their own, so kinda honest?

 

[Anomika]

Fox , while he didn't get a bigger shield unlike the majority of the cast, got his animation when blocking fixed (it doesn't revert to Smash 4 shielding animation), which helps a lot in certain MUs like Pikachu's bair or Terry's BnB jab x2 > Power Dunk combo. He's still going to have a disadvantageous MU against Pika but at least it won't be as easy to get dragged offstage, where Fox suffers the most. I do wonder if he and remaining fighters will get shield size increase someday though.

 

[Lacrimosa]

To be fair, Mario's stubby limbs don't offer him a lot of reach on their own, so kinda honest?

It was a post that was mostly aimed for his dAir, I believe.
I think Mario is one of those characters that have a good neutral and hitboxes that are "fair". For example, Peach's bAir is the size of the moon and hits in front of her while not having a sourspot (it has a late hit), I wouldn't consider that "honest".

The discussion was started because of the Pits. The Pits aren't even honest when I look at their hitboxes. They are tiny and don't even cover the dual-blades they're using completely ( has a similar issue). They're mostly underwhelming and could need a small hitbox buff, especially nAir and fAir.

 

[Firox]

It was a post that was mostly aimed for his dAir, I believe.
I think Mario is one of those characters that have a good neutral and hitboxes that are "fair". For example, Peach's bAir is the size of the moon and hits in front of her while not having a sourspot (it has a late hit), I wouldn't consider that "honest".

The discussion was started because of the Pits. The Pits aren't even honest when I look at their hitboxes. They are tiny and don't even cover the dual-blades they're using completely ( has a similar issue). They're mostly underwhelming and could need a small hitbox buff, especially nAir and fAir.

Oh, yeah, as someone that uses Pit as a secondary, his Nair/Fair hitboxes are absolutely trash. And I agree, Mario's Dair has stupid vertical priority. When I try to Up air him with Greninja, his Dair can straight-up trump me. Such BS. I honestly think Greninja's up air is in dire need of some disjoint. It doesn't have to be unfair amounts of disjoint, but his legs are too effing long to be so vulnerable. It's like the full length Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox.

 

[BlackInk]

Leo is really super optimistic about her.
Byleth is good against big bodies but projectiles and reflectors are a real pain for Byleth.

Byleth is a good character that’s just messing a good amount of mobility to help them space better and escape disadvantage much easier while still having that as a decent weakness. Why do they keep making the mobility of the actually unique FE characters so low when their kits aren’t that stupid and they don’t have a get out of jail for free card (like the highly mobile ZSS)? It’s like Nintendo doesn’t want to have disjoint characters to actually abuse their spacing unless they are simplistic as Lucina, Wolf, or Palutena.

 

[bc1910]

Okay, a few comments: When they were talking about Joker and Greninja, he wasn't talking about the MU. A character can be miles better than another and yet have a bad MU vs them. Peach is "miles better" than GnW, yet GnW does quite well in their MU. is waaaaaay better than yet Kirby still has a decent MU vs him. Point is, Joker is better than Greninja, even post-7.0.0 IMHO, even if his MU might be losing to Greninja.
OrionStats are a guideline, not scripture. Players are still saying Pika is the best in the game and yet the rat has high-tier results as of now. Plus, at the beginning of the season, Orionstats results are very iffy. Imma wait for Frostbite before I take it completely seriously.
Greninja is recognized as a top tier by several players. The OoS issue just tends to make them rank Greninja lower than other top tiers because of GnW salt.
bair is really good. Truth
Greninja though, top 23 at worst.

Peach isn't miles better than GnW either.

I didn't talk about only the MU, it just paints a picture of how the characters can hang together. I pointed to results, theory and playerbase to support my point.

People claiming PIka is #1 are clearly ignoring results. This has been discussed many times in this thread. OrionStats are the single best indication of results that we have and should be utilised far more than they are in tiering arguments.

Top 23 seems like an arbitrarily weird number.

 

[BitBitio]

Peach isn't miles better than GnW either.

I didn't talk about only the MU, it just paints a picture of how the characters can hang together. I pointed to results, theory and playerbase to support my point.

People claiming PIka is #1 are clearly ignoring results. This has been discussed many times in this thread. OrionStats are the single best indication of results that we have and should be utilised far more than they are in tiering arguments.

Top 23 seems like an arbitrarily weird number.

Yeah. Top 23
in no particular order. It doesn’t have to be an even, normal number to be true.

 

[BlackInk]

Yeah. Top 23
in no particular order. It doesn’t have to be an even, normal number to be true.

We honestly have too many optimal characters in this meta.

 

[BitBitio]

We honestly have too many optimal characters in this meta.

For real though man. Love this game

 

[Lacrimosa]

Looks like Samsora may pick up which would be great, but we'll see.

 

[BlackInk]

For real though man. Love this game

I’m still annoyed they made the mobility of the unique FE characters so ass when those characters are already balanced out by their frame data and lack of free “get out of me” options. I hope we get a patch to fix that repetitive mistake cause Robin, Byleth, and Corrin are infinitely more interesting than the most viable disjoint characters (Chrom, Lucina, and Roy).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I’m still annoyed they made the mobility of the unique FE characters so ass when those characters are already balanced out by their frame data and lack of free “get out of me” options. I hope we get a patch to fix that repetitive mistake cause Robin, Byleth, and Corrin are infinitely more interesting than the most viable disjoint characters (Chrom, Lucina, and Roy).

They are slow by design, not every character is built to zip around the stage. Robin would be ridiculous if they made them faster that’s obvious by looking at the character’s kit.

Having low mobility isn’t a mid tier sentence. Mobility is one of the most important things to have in smash but it’s not mandatory.

(Air mobility ) all don’t have anything to write home about when it comes to overall mobility. Palu has fast ground speed but her air speed is quite low. But they all excel in other aspects that make their overall mobility a weakness but not a handicap. Characters like Robin need changes to their moveset not a speed overhaul.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

(Air mobility ) all don’t have anything to write home about

Both of them have some of the highest air acceleration, thus some of the best spacing ability in the game... (Also Peach has float)

There's more then you're giving credit.

 

[Rizen]

People claiming PIka is #1 are clearly ignoring results. This has been discussed many times in this thread. OrionStats are the single best indication of results that we have and should be utilised far more than they are in tiering arguments.

.

^This. I've been finding less and less point to posting in this thread. I'm glad the game balances don't listen to the fans and didn't nerf Pika or G&W.

_______________________
I looked over the patch notes. A handful of characters were buffed who didn't need them as much as others so it shows Nintendo's trying to bring the game to the state they want. With that said, I'm happy with the changes. The only thing that didn't happen is Wario's waft didn't get nerfed when it should have, imo.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Both of them have some of the highest air acceleration, thus some of the best spacing ability in the game... (Also Peach has float)

There's more then you're giving credit.

Right sorry it i didn’t make that clear but that was apart of the excel at other aspect part of the post. I can see how that’s confusing as it’s technically apart of their mobility.