Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lacrimosa]

Joining the BK impression pile:

• Many, many recovery mixups; very valuable.
• Fair SHACs! So does bair (and uair), but that's less exotic.
• Wonderwing does trump/ignore transcendent projectiles, pretty much all hitboxes period.
• Counters cannot beat Wonderwing EXCEPT Counter Throw and Witch Time. (Which both destroy it.)
• Tethers () and area-coverage or held command grabs () have call-out potential against Wonderwing, which is otherwise excellent as described here by many.
• Alternatively, anything that can hit Banjo during its f-smash-tier 18f startup will obviously beat it, but it won't waste a feather. (Unlike those previous options) And of course you can shield; it seems pretty punishable at any range.

I think Sakurai mentioned that it is unsafe on block and in the shown footage that Mario wasn't even that fast.
Its endlag looks horrendous, so one has to be absolutely sure when to use it. I imagine it will be mostly used as a recovery option and less as an aggressive attack.

Does it kill, though?

Here's a small video. It seems to win against most of the big moves and the opponent will take damage when trying to challenge it.
So, not sure how useful it is but if someone's still interested:

Phantom looks like a good option, though. He slows down quite a bit. So it'll be quit useful in this Mu, I think.

 

[Thinkaman]

Does it kill, though?

Absolutely; damage is pretty solid too. Think Dark Pit side-b on steroids.

It's ideal for semi-hard reads on things like Wolf lasers.

I wouldn't say it's great as a recovery option so much as great as a recovery mixup.

 

[J0eyboi]

So, Banjo.

Haven't had a chance to play him yet, but based on what I've seen, I have a few observations.

His ground moves seem largely mediocre.

Jab is a jab. It's frame 4, which is decent, though it has unusually high endlag. Ftilt might be an ok spacing tool, but doesn't seem particularly rewarding. Dtilt is very slow and pretty laggy, though it is active for a while, so it might be good at 2-framing if it can hit ledge. Utilt has similar issues, but is active for much less long and probably doesn't hit ledge. You're probably better off SH Uairing to cover the space above you. His smash attacks seem like pretty bog-standard smash attacks.

Dash attack is the big exception. It's fast, active for a while, covers a lot of ground, does solid damage, and isn't too unsafe. It also seems like it might start combos, but I have no way to confirm that right now.

In terms of aerials, Fair and Uair seem good, and the rest don't. Uair seems like a good combo & juggling tool, though its use in neutral is pretty limited. Fair, meanwhile, is pretty strong and safe. It seems like it'll be a good kill option for him. Everything else is kinda just there. Bair and Nair appear too laggy to get much use out of, though Bair autocancelling might give it some utility, and Dair looks like a standard stall-n-fall. You might use it as a landing option occasionally.

I have no clue what to make of his Neutral-B.

Wonderwall is terrifying. If Banjo catches you pressing a button at like 80 at the ledge, you just die. It powers through everything that isn't a grab, you can confirm into it off of grenade, and it does 27%. You pretty much have to respect this move at all times. The five-per-stock limit doesn't seem like too much of an issue to me. It commands respect regardless of whether or not you actually use it, and it's unsafe enough that spamming it was never going to be a strong option to begin with. So long as you usually hit with it when you do use it, I can't imagine wanting to use it more than 5 times in a stock very often.

Spring Jump sure is an Up-B. It's possible that it could be used for Sonic-esque kill setups, but I haven't seen anything of the sort yet.

Rear Egg is pretty good. Drifting backwards as you use it lets you catch the egg pretty much instantly. It's definitely hampered by its short fuse, which limits the ambiguity of when Banjo's going to throw it. As it is, though, it still seems solid. It has a really good angle for combos and confirms, and can be used to stall offstage forever in conjunction with his other air options. You can also probably use it to ledgetrap.

Overall, I think Banjo's burst options are easily his greatest strength. Dash attack, Rear Egg, and Wonderwing all function as scary midrange options that let him force his way in. If he can confirm off his Dthrow, he'll be really scary, forcing 50/50s into death from half screen. I have no clue whether or not he'll be good, though.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Banjo seems like an okay fighter, no crazy gimmicks and no crippling frame data. Wonderwing and Rear Egg seems to be his best tools. I feel like Wonderwing in particular will be Banjo's best kill tool as long as more confirms are discovered, I know that people have already discovered options where Rear Egg confirms into Wonderwing. I'm interested in seeing how the character's meta game might evolve in the future.

 

[blackghost]

well zackray took second with him. he ran into a zss and an offstage massacre occurred

that bomb having such a short fuse is a bad thing, not a good thing. snakes grenades are good because he can have two out and their fuse is long enough snake can make delayed setups and traps. same thing with duck hunt and can. not high on this character zackray is one heck of a player tho.

 

[Lacrimosa]

well zackray took second with him. he ran into a zss and an offstage massacre occurred

that bomb having such a short fuse is a bad thing, not a good thing. snakes grenades are good because he can have two out and their fuse is long enough snake can make delayed setups and traps. same thing with duck hunt and can. not high on this character zackray is one heck of a player tho.

He probably played him for a few hours if at all.
Getting into Gf is a pretty good sign.

 

[|RK|]

He probably played him for a few hours if at all.
Getting into Gf is a pretty good sign.

To be fair, it IS a local where Zackray is one of the best players.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Early impressions: Banjo seems underwhelming. Unless there are some sick confirms, combos, or techs I don't see him being better than top 35 at best. Most of his non-specials seem rather underwhelming to me, and his specials don't seem to carry him as much as Duck Hunt's projectiles do. If he has good setups into side-B that could be a huge deal though. Does he?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Wonder Wing is definitely useful but I think we might be slightly overrating it as a whole. People will learn to expect and punish it pretty quickly. It makes me think of how PT mains overused Flare Blitz in early Ultimate meta, in part because they hadn't mastered the rest of the character yet and in part because people kept letting them get away with it.

I think Banjo's lack of reliable combos will mean they will have to find damage through other means. Their eggs and grendades seem like great edge guarding and ledge trapping tools. Uair has a great hitbox for juggling and compliments their triple jump well. And as I mentioned earlier, d-tilt can set up into tech chase or edge guard scenarios. I predict a big part of their meta game development will revolve around optimizing these facets of advantage state.

 

[Ffamran]

Meta of Smash uploaded this about a kill confirm off of Banjo & Kazooie's D-throw at 110% to 120%, but an update comment said that it also works at 150% to 160% with a slight change. The main issue with the kill confirm is that you need to still be able to use Wonderwing.

 

[NotLiquid]

- Banjo's FAir is pretty great.
- A few of his key moves have disjoints, so he doesn't have that big of a problem with spacing or range.
- Damage racking is the character's key weakness, taking stocks isn't.
- The drift from Rear Egg mentioned by the poster above makes regaining it a non-issue in neutral.
- You can B-reverse Banjo's Neutral B after a Rear Egg almost immediately, even out of a short hop. This not only gives him a decent mid-range wall but it can seemingly force opponents to recover high off-stage since you have two active projectiles covering the lower half of the stage. On a stage with platforms, this kinda makes for good area denial.
- I dunno if OoS Up Smash/Down Smash is a thing but it kinda feels like it should be
- Don't make the mistake of treating the grenade eggs as Snake grenades. They're more like Splat Bombs. Use them for ledge trapping.
- Ground mobility isn't as bad as I thought it was.

Seems like a decent character. Oddly I get Piranha Plant vibes from his general game plan, but... better.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Just going to give a light jump-in on BK impressions and say my early thoughts were that usmash OoS was bonkers good and maybe the best thing about the character, and I don't see people talking about it. f9 is pretty decent for OoS, and the hitboxes are just really good on it. It scoops people up high or low, in front of you or behind you, and it gives a reasonable "landing a smash" reward. The only other OoS option I can think of like it is Whirling Fortress and... yeah, that's a great comparison. BK's usmash is really a pretty great move in other ways too; it is an especially reliable anti-air, can hit platforms, and has a f3 charge release if you like those shenanigans. BK's grounded mobility feels really good so running usmash works into some situations well too. I feel like I'm struggling to figure out the best way to play footsies with BK and doing okay early on with him anyway just because I'm usmashing twice as much as everyone else. Honestly all their smashes are way better than typical smashes but usmash is just the move you always want to go back to when you need a good move.

Overall I definitely feel the power with BK. I think this character doesn't really feel top tier (if nair had the hit properites of Ivysaur and Plant but alas!), but as a clean, effective fundamentals character I see high tier potential. If you were to rank the cast numerically, my initial guess is that they'll rank in the 20s. You just have good buttons that beat other buttons and a relatively easy time ending stocks while you're heavy and have a recovery we all kinda suck at now but long term is probably above average (it has so much mix-up inherent with two useful recovery specials, two mid-air jumps, and options for what order you do things). That's just a good package in terms of overall value.

 

[Axioms]

shrooby There's a pretty good buff for Joker, and Hero too (to a lesser degree, but still nice):
Ver. 4.0.0
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-27 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-35 after hitting the ground
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground

Ver. 5.0.0
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground

So when Joker misses a tech and lands face down; He can move 9-frames earlier
Same with Hero, but it's only 1-frame

Hero's Magic burst on Mario at 0%;
hits on F-1,
has Freeze-frames from f-2 to f-6,
has immobility from f-7 to f-9,
hits with 2nd hit on f-10,
pre and post-patch.
The patch notes seem to indicate that there are more Freeze-frames, but I'm not seeing any; last time they changed the hit-stun on C. Falcon's RB they described it as "Extended the time until launched opponents can move again", so I don't think it's that?
Bowser can still Tough Guy through it; I didn't test before updating, but maybe it's more difficult for Bowser now?

I have no idea what grab parrying is; you can't parry Grabs, and doing a grab after parrying hasn't changed frame data wise (for as far as I can tell):
When Mario parries Hero's Jab-1, Grab starts on f-19 after parry, grabs Hero on f-24, D-throw starts on f-25, faf-64
This is the same pre and post-patch, so maybe it refers to missing a Grab after a Parry? I didn't test this, so I'm out of ideas.

 

[Planty]

shrooby There's a pretty good buff for Joker, and Hero too (to a lesser degree, but still nice):
Ver. 4.0.0
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-27 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-35 after hitting the ground
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground

Ver. 5.0.0
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-down-landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Mario's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Hero's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground
Joker's FAF of non-Tech face-up landing in tumble is F-26 after hitting the ground

So when Joker misses a tech and lands face down; He can move 9-frames earlier
Same with Hero, but it's only 1-frame

Hero's Magic burst on Mario at 0%;
hits on F-1,
has Freeze-frames from f-2 to f-6,
has immobility from f-7 to f-9,
hits with 2nd hit on f-10,
pre and post-patch.
The patch notes seem to indicate that there are more Freeze-frames, but I'm not seeing any; last time they changed the hit-stun on C. Falcon's RB they described it as "Extended the time until launched opponents can move again", so I don't think it's that?
Bowser can still Tough Guy through it; I didn't test before updating, but maybe it's more difficult for Bowser now?

I have no idea what grab parrying is; you can't parry Grabs, and doing a grab after parrying hasn't changed frame data wise (for as far as I can tell):
When Mario parries Hero's Jab-1, Grab starts on f-19 after parry, grabs Hero on f-24, D-throw starts on f-25, faf-64
This is the same pre and post-patch, so maybe it refers to missing a Grab after a Parry? I didn't test this, so I'm out of ideas.

I think a grab parry is when 2 players try grabbing each other at the same time and the grabs "clank".

 

[Rizen]

Just going to give a light jump-in on BK impressions and say my early thoughts were that usmash OoS was bonkers good and maybe the best thing about the character, and I don't see people talking about it. f9 is pretty decent for OoS, and the hitboxes are just really good on it. It scoops people up high or low, in front of you or behind you, and it gives a reasonable "landing a smash" reward. The only other OoS option I can think of like it is Whirling Fortress and... yeah, that's a great comparison. BK's usmash is really a pretty great move in other ways too; it is an especially reliable anti-air, can hit platforms, and has a f3 charge release if you like those shenanigans. BK's grounded mobility feels really good so running usmash works into some situations well too. I feel like I'm struggling to figure out the best way to play footsies with BK and doing okay early on with him anyway just because I'm usmashing twice as much as everyone else. Honestly all their smashes are way better than typical smashes but usmash is just the move you always want to go back to when you need a good move.

Overall I definitely feel the power with BK. I think this character doesn't really feel top tier (if nair had the hit properites of Ivysaur and Plant but alas!), but as a clean, effective fundamentals character I see high tier potential. If you were to rank the cast numerically, my initial guess is that they'll rank in the 20s. You just have good buttons that beat other buttons and a relatively easy time ending stocks while you're heavy and have a recovery we all kinda suck at now but long term is probably above average (it has so much mix-up inherent with two useful recovery specials, two mid-air jumps, and options for what order you do things). That's just a good package in terms of overall value.

Frame 3 is good for an OoS. Frame 9 is bad.

I agree he's probably high tier. Zackray barely used his best move the egg shooter. It has slow startup but walls incredibly well, allowing you to walk and jump backwards while shooting it. Between that, egg grenades and sideB as a punish option Banjo's looking like a strong zoner.

 

[Axioms]

Bowser and Hero's FAF is f-27 after the Grabs clank; I don't know what it was before so someone else will have to test it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Banjo's Back Air is incredible if you apply it properly. Namely, as a SHAC option, it pokes INSANELY low for its first hit on Frame 8 and is large and disjointed. Its sort of linear in how you apply it but its so good it doesn't matter. The timing for the SHAC is really tight but once you get it down it is incredibly effective.

Also Banjo's bury does not lead to any guaranteed kill confirms barring Utilt at higher %s if they mash out (which they most likely will to avoid other, stronger moves). The frame advantage is not high enough for Side-B unless they elect to not mash

 

[NotLiquid]

Frame 3 is good for an OoS. Frame 9 is bad.

I'm sorry what?

We're playing the game where Bowser is secure in a F6 OoS up B and where Olimar often gets away with highway robbery with an OoS Frame 12 up smash. Frame 9 is perfectly respectable. This is setting aside that most OoS options average on six frames because a lot of OoS attacks are aerial and need 3 frames applied due to jumpsquats, and this is also before we account for frame advantage from minus on block. Having a grounded f9 option that's a smash attack is anything but bad, it's pretty damn great.

Attacks that are 6-9 frames tend to only ever be "bad" OoS options if their hitboxes are junk, Inkling NAir being a good example.

 

[Rizen]

I'm sorry what?

We're playing the game where Bowser is secure in a F6 OoS up B and where Olimar often gets away with highway robbery with an OoS Frame 12 up smash. Frame 9 is perfectly respectable. This is setting aside that most OoS options average on six frames because a lot of OoS attacks are aerial and need 3 frames applied due to jumpsquats, and this is also before we account for frame advantage from minus on block.

Attacks that are 6-9 frames tend to only ever be "bad" OoS options if their hitboxes are junk, Inkling NAir being a good example.

I play a character with a f9 OoS (YL's spin attack) and it will only punish unsafe options. If most OoS options average f6 it shows how bad a f9 OoS option is, below average. Bowser's OoS, and most OoS games, are better than banjo's.

 

[$.A.F.]

Frame 9 isn't really that good honestly if you use even slightly safe options. Very few characters have options that aren't -8 or safer to pressure with [cough cough, PLANT] and the Hitbox while by no means small doesn't have amazing range.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Frame 9 isn't really good against fresh, unstaled moves, absolutely. But a lot of shield data on block on websites is listed as, and people need to accept this, if the move hits literally one frame before the person using the move hits the ground, as deep as possible. Meaning a lot of stuff usually lowballs at like -5/-6 even if its -3 because best case scenarios aren't always happening. The amount of grounded pokes that are actually like -7 on block or less are really small as well, just worth noting.

I do agree its not INCREDIBLE as an OoS option, but its adequate I think, particularly if you've blocked a couple of moves or are blocking a staled move.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Even more random things about :

But first, here's my earlier post of stuff I found out about him:

Some Banjo info I found:

• Banjo's weight is 106, the same as Snake and ROB, I just tested it.
• Banjo's side-b has a lot of lag when it bounces off of a wall.
• Banjo has 2 mid-air jumps.
• Once neutral-b has been activated into it's machine-gun egg shooter thing (I'm not a Banjo Kazooie fan, IDK what it's called) it can be held infinitely. Only one egg needs to be shot to activate the machine-gun egg shooter.
• Any move can be used out of up-b.
• Can't confirm 100% but Banjo's run and fall speed seems to be average but his walk speed and air speed seem slow.

Edit: Weight can be tested on Mushroom Kingdom 64 in-game for anyone who's curious.

• I tested this on on the Training Mode stage and I am using the combo meter for reference here. Not the most reliable source, but it's the best source the game gives me.
• F-air has 12 frame of landing lag and is functionally similar to /. Overall, it's not that great IMO.
• Down-throw --> up-smash is a true combo (according to the combo counter so this might be inaccurate) on Mario at 27%. Up-smash deals 16.3% damage unstaled and is really fast but it does lack the kill potential of other more powerful up-smashes. It will start killing around 120% on Mario without DI (uncharged).
• Down-throw --> down-smash is a true combo (according to the combo counter so this might be inaccurate) on Mario at 53%. Down-smash deals 18.2% damage unstaled. It is a bit slower than up-smash, but it is much more powerful (but deals horizontal knockback) On Final Destination, it will start killing around 115% on Mario without DI (uncharged).
• Down-throw --> f-smash is a true combo (according to the combo counter so this might be inaccurate) on Mario at 79%. F-smash deals 19.2% damage unstaled. It is a slow attack but has some serious range and power. On Final Destination, it will start killing around 95% on Mario without DI (uncharged).
• Landing b-air is similar to .
• Banjo has a 'Gentlemen' jab like and .
• Banjo has an infinite recovery using grenade but it's much harder to pull off than .
• Edit: Banjo's up-tilt is comparable to but with more range like It kills at semi-reasonable percents (around 130%), is very fast, and will usually scoop up opponents who are next to Banjo unlike many up-tilts in Ultimate.

Edit 2: Overall, Banjo seems like a wild mix of attributes, abilities, strengths, and weaknesses that I feel will make him a bit of a wild card in the meta. His tilts are either average or below average in terms of utility. His smash attacks all have their uses but outside of up-smash maybe being decent OOS, none of them are too notable. His aerials are also nothing special either with only b-air standing out to me as an above average aerial in comparison to the rest of the cast. N-air in particular is underwhelming. He is slow in most aspects with poor air speed, bad walk speed, and one of the worst initial dashes in the game. However, his dash speed and additional grounded mobility options when using side and neutral-b can somewhat alleviate this. Despite some people saying Banjo's recovery is bad, it is actually very flexible and he has many options to get back to the stage. He has two multiple jumps, an up-b he can act out of that gives decent vertical distance, a down-b that allows for infinite recovery, and a side-b that travels very far horizontally. His camping game with down-b might actually be kind of wack and I'm looking forward to seeing all of the new tech that is found for this move. Side-b is decent against characters without quick attacks to punish the endlag on it or without a tether grab but characters like and have absolutely nothing to worry about because they are good in both areas. His grab game is decent as he has some follow-ups from down-throw (if I have tested it correctily), up-throw has some followup potential at low percents, and back-throw is one of the better back-throws in the game. Down-b may be a good landing options if Banjo throws the bomb downwards.

Overall, he seems like a solid high-mid tier to me, probably near the very top. I can see him moving up or down but it's only day one, so I'm prepared to change my opinion on him as time passes.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Down throw -> move isn’t a true combo because mashing exists. Not until really high percentages will you actually combo off down throw.

But being a move that buries it does open up 50/50. If your opponent mashes, which given it’s a throw so they are already mashing out to escape the throw once your past low percentages you can place a nair and punish any attempt at an attack out of the mash. If they air dodge out of mash land and chase the landing. If they don’t mash they open themselves up to a much strong punish in wonderwing or a smash which not many people are going to risk so you can reliably guess they’ll mash out and prepare to cover their escape option. People will get better with slightly delayed mashes (especially given Banjo’s strongest moves are rather slow on start up, unless his up smash still scoops buried foes) which will be effective counterplay but again the Banjo player can adjust.

Frame 9 OOS is by no means bad, it’s not super fast no but it’s not bad when they move let’s you stay grounded and has horizontal hitboxes. Having said that his up smash has average reach horizontally, he’s not going to be able to use that against a lot of characters if they space correctly on his shield. He definitely needs it though because other than that his OOS game is rather lacking.

I will say it already looks like people are finding use for Wonderwing once you’ve used all your feathers. Because it trips you and causes you to plant on the floor you have access to getup attacks, getup attacks have intangiblity as you get the hitboxes out. You can use this to swat away recoveries at ledge like Chrom’s if they aren’t completely under the ledge for some pretty silly stocks. I wouldn’t be surprised if people use for it as a sudden hurtbox shifting situationally. He obviously rather have the feathers most of the time.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just going to say that I main Bowser and milk Fortress all day; it is f6 and punishes tons and tons of stuff OoS less for being f6 and more for the way it just hits everywhere so the only way to space against it is to space "out" which has its own downsides (at long horizontal range, you don't really have mix-up, and a lot of characters just aren't rangy enough to do this anyway). Fortress also hits really hard so it's just worth going for a lot unlike a lot of SH aerials OoS that hit weakly and while rising so you often get poor reward for your "punish". BK usmash is obviously slower at f9 but it has the same type of hitboxes and reward, and I think if you're "fast enough" OoS that hitbox shape and reward matter more than frame data in most situations and BK have really an ideal here. I guess a lot of my viewpoint is that I main Bowser and this is by far the most Bowser-esque thing on BK, but I can say I have been able to land this in a ton of the same situations I get Fortress and it has paid off big for me in admittedly fairly sloppy early gameplay.

 

[blackghost]

void tier list the next part.

. i watched the part on bayo only. it was essentially what i thought it would be.
"this character is still dangerous." proceeds to name 2 total kill options.

the name of the game is taking stocks not dealing damage. if your damaging combos don't lead to kills your character is just working against the game engine of smash's increased KB growth. fighting a games engine is not a long term for success.

Void also talked about edgegaurding. from her. Yes, she could be the best edge guarder in the game but thats not enough to land her here in high tier.
void also overexaggerated witch time's viability. bayo can only get about 2 full powered witch time inputs per stock. Getting the banjo treatment would actually be an upgrade. That counter has some fun nich uses but overall its frame data and FAF are so poor that using witch time to set up kills is not a good idea nor will it yield reliable results against an evenly skilled opponent. Witch time FAF is around 65-68. witch time comes out frame 7.
void also said bayo has good camping tools. I genuinely have no idea what he is talking about. below is a visual comparison of counters. startup, active frames, and endlag. remmeebr only witch time degrades on input not just success.

 

[Nate1080]

Banjo seems like an okay fighter, no crazy gimmicks and no crippling frame data. Wonderwing and Rear Egg seems to be his best tools. I feel like Wonderwing in particular will be Banjo's best kill tool as long as more confirms are discovered, I know that people have already discovered options where Rear Egg confirms into Wonderwing. I'm interested in seeing how the character's meta game might evolve in the future.

Even though I never pulled it off, I feel drag down n-air into Wonderwing is a kill confirm. n-air auto cancels close to the ground and puts the opponent into a standing position (left or right depending on which direction they were facing when you n-air'd them), where you can Wonderwing for a kill.

Also Wonderwing seems to be a good tech chase tool too.

 

[ZephyrZ]

• Down-throw --> down-smash is a true combo (according to the combo counter so this might be inaccurate) on Mario at 53%. Down-smash deals 18.2% damage unstaled. It is a bit slower than up-smash, but it is much more powerful (but deals horizontal knockback) On Final Destination, it will start killing around 115% on Mario without DI (uncharged).
• Down-throw --> f-smash is a true combo (according to the combo counter so this might be inaccurate) on Mario at 79%. F-smash deals 19.2% damage unstaled. It is a slow attack but has some serious range and power. On Final Destination, it will start killing around 95% on Mario without DI (uncharged).

A level 9 Ricter CPU just escaped out of D-throw -> F-smash at roughly 94%. Buries don't seem to be accurate on the combo counter.

 

[TennisBall]

What is Banjo able to do off of Drag-Down N-Air. Jab seems to be the most reliable, but Grab, F-Tilt, and D-Tilt I see frequently too. I'm no Banjo main, but I'm interested if we can turn his combo game into Wonderwing Greninja.
(That was a joke, Banjo has better set-ups obviously, as Wonderwing has considerable startup.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In my experience Banjo's dragdown nair is inconsistent in that it seems to be largely up to chance whether they fly left or right. Unless there's some pattern I've failed to notice?

 

[The_Bookworm]

void tier list the next part.

. i watched the part on bayo only. it was essentially what i thought it would be.
"this character is still dangerous." proceeds to name 2 total kill options.

the name of the game is taking stocks not dealing damage. if your damaging combos don't lead to kills your character is just working against the game engine of smash's increased KB growth. fighting a games engine is not a long term for success.

Void also talked about edgegaurding. from her. Yes, she could be the best edge guarder in the game but thats not enough to land her here in high tier.
void also overexaggerated witch time's viability. bayo can only get about 2 full powered witch time inputs per stock. Getting the banjo treatment would actually be an upgrade. That counter has some fun nich uses but overall its frame data and FAF are so poor that using witch time to set up kills is not a good idea nor will it yield reliable results against an evenly skilled opponent. Witch time FAF is around 65-68. witch time comes out frame 7.
void also said bayo has good camping tools. I genuinely have no idea what he is talking about. below is a visual comparison of counters. startup, active frames, and endlag. remmeebr only witch time degrades on input not just success.
View attachment 237076

As I expected, he forgot about .

Bayo, Sheik, and PPlant definitely the big eye raiser for the high tier.

has a myriad of weaknesses and hasn't made much impact in competitive play outside of locals and a few regional tournaments. He also gave out some faulty information on her strengths, which you have elaborated on.
He seems to still be optimistic on , despite not getting any (relevant) success with the character. He used and did somewhat alright with her on the first week after she was buffed, but then he didn't get anything since.
The reasoning for his placement, is that he thinks that the one result of Brood's Umebura SP 4 run is enough to confirm that it is underrated/high tier character. This is somewhat similar to what some people are feeling about Shulk after Switchfest (granted that Shulk is a much better character, but the situation is similar).

It seems that Umebura SP 4, in general, has held a lot of weight on his opinion of characters, emphasis on why PPlant and Little Mac, characters that are pretty much universally considered low tier, is ranked so high in his tier list.

It only makes me more confused on why Sonic is ranked so low in his tier list.

...
Yep, this is a top player tier list alright.

Other than these three characters, as well the massive tier gap between Ken and Ryu, his high tier seems accurate.

On a side note, why is Ike's counter so laggy? It literally has the same damage multiplier as Marthcina's.

 

[Thinkaman]

• f9 OoS is nothing to write home about, but is rather respectable for Banjo u-smash. It's a fast speed for what it is.
• Interrupted dragdown nair most often for me pulls people behind me. Or, if I catch people when facing the other way, right into a f4 jab, which is nice.
• Banjo's disadvantage is all about quantity over quality. He has so many recovery and landing mixups (even dair!) and honestly all of them are... sort of meh? But it's like PT recovery, where his sheer abundance of options can often prove nearly as good as Flip Jump.
• Did I mention that fair SHACs? Yes? Well, good.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Banjo’s nair pulls his opponents into him so all hits connect. Each hit does this aside the final launcher. What this means is that when determining what side an opponent comes out on is based on how far away the opponent is and how many hits of nair you land before landing. An opponent farther away will take more hits before they get pulled in enough to clear past Banjo once he lands on the opposite side he’s facing. I imagine this has to do with the fact two characters cannot stack on each other and the game will repel them apart in the direction most of their hurtbox is on. (Like how some dash attacks can still crossup shields if done close enough).

If you want to drag an opponent in front of you, aim for the farthest part of the nair. If you want them on the opposite side your facing be closer.

This is what I’ve gather from testing please correct me if wrong or not entirely correct.

 

[Krysco]

Been away for a while due to eye surgery. Just got done catching up here and the only thing I can add about Banjo I haven't seen specifically mentioned yet is that Kazooie lacks a hurtbox from what I can tell at all times aside from when running (the talon trot). This is why the moves that use her have any disjoint at all. Very easy to notice in Training with a Starman as she doesn't get the green glow at all unless running. Weight, frame data and general movement specs have already been mentioned and I saw mention of an easy way to catch Rear Egg that I didn't even think of (drifting towards it while airborne). Most I found for catching a grounded Rear Egg is either run towards it and pivot ftilt or jump, z catch and then use the c stick to immediately throw it. I'll also mention that it doesn't explode when coming in contact with a surface, even when thrown but does explode when coming in contact with a hurtbox and produces 2 hitboxes similar to Yink and Tink bombs.

 

[Minordeth]

BK looks like a zoner/trapper that can also zone break.

Being able to pull out budget-level Mega Man lemons whenever is a pretty great option, and B-reverse egg is a nice walling and ledge trap option.

Like Nairo said on his stream, BK feels like a Brood or Raito character. A small group of particular players are going to go in hard on the duo and BK will be annoyingly good.

I personally get a “Bowser with better mid range, worse CQC, but better recovery” which is hardly a bad mix. Bowser also has a brutal ledge game, which I can easily see BK having.

The ability to zone break in a dramatic way makes neutral interactions fairly scary. Like, can you imagine pulling grenade, bringing up menu, or throwing boomerang at 90%? Guaranteed, your back is sweating, and you are hoping your BK opponent hasn’t got the Wonder-read on you.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So Banjo's edgeguarding has kind of flown under my radar but it seems that he has a bunch of tools that are, at the very least, not bad for the job. Two midair jumps, two projectiles, a solid fair/bair, a low-calorie version of Sonic's spring, Wonderwing for yolo reads...

 

[Lacrimosa]

Armada releases his 4.0/5.0 tier-list. There isn't much difference between both versions, so yeah:

S-tier:
A-tier:
B-tier:
C-tier:(l wouldn't rank him, yet)
D-tier:
E-tier:
F-tier:
Unranked:

There are some odd placements, but yeah. I guess it looks pretty decent for the most part, though.

What this tier-list seperates from Void's are placements of PP or Shiek to only name a few. So it seems that Armada doesn't weigh in tournament results as much as Void does and he doesn't seem to hype these characters up, which is good.)
Ness looks kinda low in both lists. It doesn't really surprise me, however Gackt and BestNess do really place well in recent tournaments. The big Ness player in Fow isn't going to (m)any tournaments outside of Vegas, though. Same for Awestin which I think holds Ness back quite a bit. Fow was ranked 12th on the Sm4sh PGR at some point and he's still pretty good but yeah.

Young Link seems rather low but he isn'T used as much as in season 1 and it seems that the trend continues. He does well at some smaller tournaments (see SKITTLES for example) but I also don't see him that often at C-tiers or higher. So I guess C-tier looks justified.

Overall, it seems that the tier-list is mostly on par with the Orion Stats on the lower ranked characters (except Zelda by a very large margin which is kinda baffling to me).

 

[Lore]

Armada releases his 4.0/5.0 tier-list. There isn't much difference between both versions, so yeah:

S-tier:
A-tier:
B-tier:
C-tier:(l wouldn't rank him, yet)
D-tier:
E-tier:
F-tier:
Unranked:

There are some odd placements, but yeah. I guess it looks pretty decent for the most part, though.

What this tier-list seperates from Void's are placements of PP or Shiek to only name a few. So it seems that Armada doesn't weigh in tournament results as much as Void does and he doesn't seem to hype these characters up, which is good.)
Ness looks kinda low in both lists. It doesn't really surprise me, however Gackt and BestNess do really place well in recent tournaments. The big Ness player in Fow isn't going to (m)any tournaments outside of Vegas, though. Same for Awestin which I think holds Ness back quite a bit. Fow was ranked 12th on the Sm4sh PGR at some point and he's still pretty good but yeah.

Young Link seems rather low but he isn'T used as much as in season 1 and it seems that the trend continues. He does well at some smaller tournaments (see SKITTLES for example) but I also don't see him that often at C-tiers or higher. So I guess C-tier looks justified.

Overall, it seems that the tier-list is mostly on par with the Orion Stats on the lower ranked characters (except Zelda by a very large margin which is kinda baffling to me).

This list seems solid enough to me. I do hate that Palutena is merely low A-Tier now, but I can understand why she's there.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Armada releases his 4.0/5.0 tier-list. There isn't much difference between both versions, so yeah:

S-tier:
A-tier:
B-tier:
C-tier:(l wouldn't rank him, yet)
D-tier:
E-tier:
F-tier:
Unranked:

There are some odd placements, but yeah. I guess it looks pretty decent for the most part, though.

What this tier-list seperates from Void's are placements of PP or Shiek to only name a few. So it seems that Armada doesn't weigh in tournament results as much as Void does and he doesn't seem to hype these characters up, which is good.)
Ness looks kinda low in both lists. It doesn't really surprise me, however Gackt and BestNess do really place well in recent tournaments. The big Ness player in Fow isn't going to (m)any tournaments outside of Vegas, though. Same for Awestin which I think holds Ness back quite a bit. Fow was ranked 12th on the Sm4sh PGR at some point and he's still pretty good but yeah.

Young Link seems rather low but he isn'T used as much as in season 1 and it seems that the trend continues. He does well at some smaller tournaments (see SKITTLES for example) but I also don't see him that often at C-tiers or higher. So I guess C-tier looks justified.

Overall, it seems that the tier-list is mostly on par with the Orion Stats on the lower ranked characters (except Zelda by a very large margin which is kinda baffling to me).

He also put as "unranked".

 

[Rizen]

Armada releases his 4.0/5.0 tier-list. There isn't much difference between both versions, so yeah:

S-tier:
A-tier:
B-tier:
C-tier:(l wouldn't rank him, yet)
D-tier:
E-tier:
F-tier:
Unranked:

There are some odd placements, but yeah. I guess it looks pretty decent for the most part, though.

What this tier-list seperates from Void's are placements of PP or Shiek to only name a few. So it seems that Armada doesn't weigh in tournament results as much as Void does and he doesn't seem to hype these characters up, which is good.)
Ness looks kinda low in both lists. It doesn't really surprise me, however Gackt and BestNess do really place well in recent tournaments. The big Ness player in Fow isn't going to (m)any tournaments outside of Vegas, though. Same for Awestin which I think holds Ness back quite a bit. Fow was ranked 12th on the Sm4sh PGR at some point and he's still pretty good but yeah.

Young Link seems rather low but he isn'T used as much as in season 1 and it seems that the trend continues. He does well at some smaller tournaments (see SKITTLES for example) but I also don't see him that often at C-tiers or higher. So I guess C-tier looks justified.

Overall, it seems that the tier-list is mostly on par with the Orion Stats on the lower ranked characters (except Zelda by a very large margin which is kinda baffling to me).

Who is Armada? I've never heard of him placing in tournaments. I see he and void are still underrating .
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Several things came up in my last tournament.

Someone was complaining about 's magic burst killing them twice and brought up an interesting point: "Hero's RNG is not a problem in high level play but it is in mid level play." I can see this because mid level players are less safe and more likely to get hit by Hero's menu spells, which kill stupidly early. I've had hatchet man kill Wolf at 20% from across the stage. Hero's not going to win any major tournaments but he can be disruptive to certain unlucky players.

Food for thought.
___________________
I played a and didn't think to ask what specials they were using because how often do you run into Miis? They got a free stealth burst and reflector because I didn't know they had them. It wasn't a big deal but Miis should have some indication of what specials they use, like having a name with numbers indicating them: 1121. Stealth burst can't be seen if you don't know it's coming.

____________________
I've said for a while now isn't really solo viable. He has too many bad MUs. I judge bad MUs by having played them several times and they don't get much better. Specifically he needs another character to cover: and less so . But he's good as a CP character.
I tried as a secondary but the more I use him the less he seems to cover bad MUs. He at best goes even with but doesn't do much better than YL for most of the bad MUs. Although it is good to have a big sword to mixup play styles and for certain stages like BF. Link's too slow to keep up with the top tiers. He's not a bad character but doesn't have any relavent good MUs.
is a much better secondary. Except for slightly losing to the rats imo he seems to go at least even with top tiers. YL can cover the rats, Joker and Peach MUs. That's the thing, top tiers don't usually have weaknesses besides other top tiers. It's hard to cover bad MUs with mid tier characters.

 

[Megamang]

Armada is one of the best melee players ever. He was a dominant peach and had some success with... fox iirc? He quit for health/personal reasons. but he has great 'smash iq', though the amount skill crosses over between games is debatable.