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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    585

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
I think that people still think that this game is a expansion pack of smash 4 and not something different, so they try to play ultimate like smash 4, that of course it can work. but your character could be retooled to the point that using the same playstyle with him isn't working or you aren't as comfortable as you want playing him, even if they aren't worse that how they were in smash 4, this is why a lot of top players have some degree of character crisis, because they don't know if they want to commit to the character yet, because maybe the character isn't that good.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,931
Word of caution: preliminary character tierings are subject to massive change once top players integrate parrying into their gameplay. I still see a bunch of the best players shielding projectiles and multihits.
 

ChikoLad

Purple Boi
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
23,084
As a Rosalina main from Smash Wii U/3DS, I am basically at the point of dropping her mainly because I feel, even outside of the nerfs (of which there are many, and they are all very severe and make her less fun to play), I feel like they didn't fully play test her. She has deceptively short hitboxes on a lot of moves, Luma basically clanks with everything now, Luma's detethered A.I I've found to be more unresponsive (I think this one is tied to the terrible buffering system in this game though), and some attacks just randomly whiff when they SHOULD be hitting, the most notable example being the second hit on her dash attack (it's a handy keep-away tool especially if you're waiting on Luma to come back) which scoops them in on the first hit and is supposed to knock them away on the second. That second hit randomly whiffs a lot though and I can't figure out why (tried it on different characters at different percents and it can happen in any of these situations seemingly at random), and it results in a F-air punish usually which can be fatal in some situations.

While she did get a few buffs like Star Bits being better and she can do a few new tricks like Lunar Jumping and falling Luma rapid jab, her fundamentals are just very poor. I also feel that attack cancel trick is likely to get patched so it's a "rely on it while you can" situation. It's also proven to be quite difficult to put into practice with her, and most people only show it off in training mode but rarely in actual matches which doesn't make it sound as useful as people make it out to be.

You also have to consider how much better most other characters are relative to her though. Rosalina players have to learn all of this tech that might get patched to even make her work at all. Meanwhile, Chrom exists and can just unga-bunga her because he outranges her in most situations, is a lot faster than her, and his uncharged F-Smash KOs her at 40% at the sides of the stage which is more likely to happen than you'd think because Rosalina sucks at getting back on stage and is a big target. And don't get me started on the Meta Knight MU, which I honestly feel is borderline unwinnable in this game due to the fact he's a short character and Rosalina really struggles to land a hit on them now. In Rosalina's old N-air, Luma hit low which made it good against shorties in neutral, but now he hits around her waist which misses shorties like Meta Knight and Pikachu. Meta Knight just needs to dash attack and Luma is gone. It was not a fun MU in the last game either but it felt doable, now it feels like torture.

Most of Ultimate's basic mechanical changes also hurt her. Roll staling being a big one. Rosalina needs to roll to reposition herself without moving Luma when he's detethered. Before, she could do this without a care in the world and it wouldn't hurt the usability of roll in a pinch if the opponent gets through Luma. Now, roll staling makes it that basic positioning of Luma comes with an annoying cost.

Overall, besides being kind of buggy and glaringly unpolished (expected in a roster of 74 characters, but I wish it didn't have to be her), the amount of targeted nerfs she received has make her feel... unintuitive now. In Smash Wii U/3DS, she was intuitive and almost everything about her design made sense and clicked. Her mechanics were easy to understand individually but combining them altogether was what made her tricky but rewarding to play as. However, now she feels clunky, unintuitive, buggy, and inconsistent, and I'd imagine that's at least part of why the few top players who did main her in Smash Wii U/3DS have dropped her.

It's not just a case of "you have to relearn her", even if you relearn her, which I have, her results are just so inconsistent. Unpopular opinion and the Rosalina Discord drove me out for it, but I honestly think she's low tier. But more importantly, she isn't fun anymore.
 
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icyrvnd

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
51
TL;DR I think :ultkingdedede:is good (not great).

+ Amazing survavability (weight)/recovery (multijumps + Up-B)
+ Aggressive edgeguarding options
+ Decent coverage of ledge options
+ Multiple kill options

- Lacks kill confirms
- Horizontal mobility
- Slow aerials
- Easily combo'd due to size & weight

Tough match-ups versus in-your-facers(:ultchrom::ultwolf::ultpichu::squirtle: et al.) by having to rely on your grounded options, since your only fast aerial (nair) does not have the range to compete (especially versus swordies).
And tough match-ups versus campers (:ultlink::ultvillager::ultzelda::ultrichter: et al.) due to bad horizontal mobility. You will be forced to approach, making you predictable.

I believe stage control, positioning and spacing to be a key part of his game, given that they all directly mitigate his disadvantages, while playing to his strengths. Usage of Ftilt and Gordos are king for control, and sharking an airborne opponent above with uair/utilt/upsmash will net you a lot of damage.

Stage-wise there is no clear winner as of yet but I feel having platforms makes your grounded game safer (e.g. ftilting under a platform), while facilitating keeping your opponent airborne. The downside is :ultkingdedede:can have a bad time coming down from platforms/the air himself, but multijumps and the new directional airdodge can help you with mixups. Also don't be afraid to just go for the ledge.

Ways to improve :ultkingdedede: metagame: lab weight&percent-dependent combos (soft-nair->*, dtilt->utilt, etc), lab the viability of his drag-down uair, lab his ledge trapping (as a Melee player I'm clueless). Aside from labbing, we need a lot of data versus the aforementioned match-ups.
Now for the biased :ultkingdedede: main opinion: I think :ultkingdedede:is the second-best heavy after :ultdk:. And in the current tier-list environment, I would place him either high on mid-tier, or low on high-tier.

Now for an optional rambling about his kit:

Nair: Combo-starter. Fast, very small landing lag, short range. Soft nair at low-mid percents can combo into something (usually utilt). Useful for starting combos, platform tech-chasing, and coming down from the air with fastfall (or not) as a mixup. Almost always used when going down, not up.
Fair: Edgeguard. Covers a lot of area in front of :ultkingdedede:, but has a short enough range that you can't use this willy-nilly as a commit in neutral. Good in an aerial battle, and aggressive edgeguarding. Only kills at very high percent, unless it is an offstage hit.
Bair: Kill. Has an initial delay, but you can time it easily after a while. Landing lag isn't too high, so you can shffl it liberally if spaced well. I'd rather save it till kill percent, to avoid conditioning the opponent to be ready for it.
Uair: Juggle. Great range, can kill at very high percents. Is used often, and will rarely be contested when threatening this move. You can sneak it in edgeguards as a mixup since you can fall so fast past the opponent. It also has potential as a drag-down combo move (like :ultpikachu: nair), so I encourage labbing this.
Dair: The least used aerial. You can still occasionally sneak one in there though. There are three main uses outside of edgeguarding: 1) My favorite, SH dair OoS to punish laggy hard-commits on your shield. This can kill light characters surprisingly early. 2) Hitting tall characters through platforms, much like a Falcon stomp in Melee. Pretty easy to punish you if expected, though. 3) Mixup for coming down from the air (I prefer nair).

Jab: Not much to say, decent damage and knockback. No clear situations of when to use. I think the first two hits can jab reset.
Dash attack: Sloooow, but can kill very early. It's a very hard-commit move, so use it very carefully. Easy to use versus roll-heavy players, since if you predict a roll away it will connect. I really wish this move had super armor as a buff, to increase the number of scenarios where it is useful.

Ftilt: Amazing move, that makes using tilt-stick almost obligatory for :ultkingdedede:. Long range, sustained hitbox. Can cover multiple ledge options. Great in neutral for controlling space, albeit unsafe if used close-range on shield.
Dtilt: The oh-****-let-me-breathe move. Since it comes out very fast (6f), you can usually use it to catch the opponent's attempt to whiff punish you. Sort of laggy ending, so I would avoid using it too much. At very low percent, it can combo into utilt depending on opponent weight.
Utilt: Solid move that scales knockback well, comboing at low-mid percents and killing at very high percents. The hitbox isn't Brawl-like, so you can't hit opponents from anywhere, requiring good positioning. The back hit (7f) comes out faster than front hit (10f). This is probably the main tool to start an airborne sharking situation.

Fsmash: Surprisingly threatening on covering ledge options. Can easily break shields that aren't at full size. Even though it's a clunky move, I feel that mastering positioning/timing to use it is an important tool in :ultkingdedede: kit. Just by charging it near the ledge will force an option change for the incoming opponent. Don't overuse it though.
Usmash: By mixing up the juggle game, :ultkingdedede: can net a LOT of kills with this below platforms. Usually safe to use below a platform, and even if shielded is a good chunk of shield damage to take advantage of in the next few seconds.
Dsmash: After changing to tilt-stick (see Ftilt) I underuse this move because of muscle memory, so I can't say much about it. It is a competent move that has applications especially for ledge options coverage.

Up-B: Not much to say, besides being a top-tier recovery when combined with :ultkingdedede: multijumps. Oh and it kills, but seems competitively unapplicable. Maybe by intentionally missing edge sweetspot at the apex of the Up-B and landing onstage.
Down-B: Seems to be useful only after shield-breaks. But maybe there are more applications to it, and the occasional catching someone off-guard.
B: Great tool to discourage projectiles, a :ultlink::ultyounglink::ulttoonlink: will think twice about boomeranging in neutral after being inhale-reflected once. The threat of this move is greater than the move itself, since it can be so laggy to use. Also, if the opponent can spam projectiles quickly enough, you will get hit (:ultridley: fireballs). Using it to inhale opponents does not seem to net followups. Suicide inhale is always an option to catch an edgeguarder off guard (no pun intended), so keep it in the back of your mind, but avoid using this.
Side-B: A huge part of neutral and edgeguarding! At point-blank it can do a massive 30% by double-hitting. A long-range shot can catch opponents off guard and can kill when opponents are far offstage. The main usage is the short-range shot with bouncy Gordos. They threaten so much space, especially on Battlefield stages where you can be ambiguous about whether they will bounce under or over platforms. And you can even mixup by inhale-reflecting the Gordo you just threw! For edgeguarding you can also be ambiguous about the amount of bounces it will have before going offstage, by positioning and platforms. Beware, it is trivial to reflect Gordos. Use it a lot, but with this downside in mind! Even an uncharged :ultlink: arrow will do the job. Remember that you can inhale-reflect it back, but it usually requires predicting the inhale, which can leave you open to punish. Which is why I like it better to use it mid-range. The point-blank hits usually happen when I use it mid-range while the opponent is overextending.

Fthrow: Isn't very useful unless you want to throw them offstage, and you're facing that way.
Bthrow: A kill option at higher percents! Otherwise, same as Fthrow.
Uthrow: The go-to throw for either comboing Uair, or start sharking from below.
Dthrow: After mid-high percents, replaces Uthrow.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
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Word of caution: preliminary character tierings are subject to massive change once top players integrate parrying into their gameplay. I still see a bunch of the best players shielding projectiles and multihits.
At the very first launch tournament at Xanadu, the final match was ZD as Fox vs. WaDi as ROB, and already you could see what a difference parrying makes. ROB was constantly throwing out Nairs, which would have been very safe in Smash 4, but ended up getting punished consistently as ZD got used to parrying them. Suddenly, slow startup+quick recovery comes with another drawback.

I can't parry well at all, but I'm looking forward to seeing the top players master it.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,906
Location
Colorado
Parrying's harder than PSing in SSB4. Even though you have a 5f window to drop shield you must already be shielding when an attack hits. I'm not very good at it either.

What does everyone think about :ultmetaknight: in this game? I've heard he was really good but does that still hold up?
 

ChikoLad

Purple Boi
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
23,084
So probably not super relevant in terms of most match-up but against K. Rool at least, Yoshi can turn his crown gigantic.

 

Nobie

Smash Champion
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SDShamshel
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Another thing: I see some players criticizing the parrying mechanic because it's worse against projectiles compared to power shielding.

IMO this is A GOOD thing. In a game where shield grabs are bad, approaches are better, and landing lag is low overall, parrying's flaws keep projectile specialists relevant. I don't want the Mega Men, Belmonts, and ROBs of the world feeling like they're second-class citizens because people want to rush down all the time.
 

J0eyboi

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
573
What does everyone think about :ultmetaknight: in this game? I've heard he was really good but does that still hold up?
Prerelease, everyone thought he was good because Twitter combos. Turns out those Twitter combos are pretty impractical, and basically every S4 MK main dropped him. He may still be good, but right now he's definitely being overshadowed by the other fast, combo-heavy swordies, and given how many characters seem good right now, I don't think he's
exceptionally strong.
 
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trickroom

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
77
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orangeguy1201
Switch FC
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Parrying's harder than PSing in SSB4. Even though you have a 5f window to drop shield you must already be shielding when an attack hits. I'm not very good at it either.

What does everyone think about :ultmetaknight: in this game? I've heard he was really good but does that still hold up?
He is really good. His edgeguards are insane. At the edges of the stage, Drill Rush kills off the side at 90ish. His low-mid% combo game is still perfectly strong. Like Diddy or Mewtwo, don't let ex-MK mains tell you the character is bad because they're annoyed that he's different. He's still an easy high/top tier
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,967
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
He is really good. His edgeguards are insane. At the edges of the stage, Drill Rush kills off the side at 90ish. His low-mid% combo game is still perfectly strong. Like Diddy or Mewtwo, don't let ex-MK mains tell you the character is bad because they're annoyed that he's different. He's still an easy high/top tier
This! Exactly!

Knowing this, Diddy is still my main, and Mewtwo is still one of my more solid secondaries (like DK and Ike). Their playstyle has changed, and what made them real good in the last game was tweaked with buffs and nerfs all over. In both cases, I think Diddy and Mewtwo got more buffs than nerfs. And that it fits with their new game plan in this new offensive engine. I feel very much the same about Meta Knight.

In 4, I wouldn't wanna mess with Meta Knight because of his ladder combos feeling cheap, as well as too time consuming. Am having way more fun with this new Meta Knight, and the Tornado buff alone makes him extremely viable. He got many of the strenghts Chrom has, just less KO power, but chance of recovering, and awesome edgeguard stuff with the Tornado.
 

trickroom

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 10, 2018
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orangeguy1201
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chance of recovering, and awesome edgeguard stuff with the Tornado.
I forgot about how good this was in my previous post. Tornado can get edgeguard kills so easily it feels like cheating. Nado is going to be half the reason MK is a tournament threat in my opinion
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
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At the very first launch tournament at Xanadu, the final match was ZD as Fox vs. WaDi as ROB, and already you could see what a difference parrying makes. ROB was constantly throwing out Nairs, which would have been very safe in Smash 4, but ended up getting punished consistently as ZD got used to parrying them. Suddenly, slow startup+quick recovery comes with another drawback.

I can't parry well at all, but I'm looking forward to seeing the top players master it.
And this is why I'm not worried about swords overcentralizing the late game.
 

**Gilgamesh**

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
649
Word of caution: preliminary character tierings are subject to massive change once top players integrate parrying into their gameplay. I still see a bunch of the best players shielding projectiles and multihits.
Parrying projectiles provides less advantage then just Shielding + buffering jump by a couple of frames.

This is probably why players are saying projectiles are very strong. Parrying really doesn't do much against them.
 
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BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
I really don't get why people are still on about MK's ladder combos. They lost all relevance after 1.1.5 in S4 but the perception surrounding the character is stuck in a time loop. I am beating a dead horse now: in the final version of S4 ladder combos were a non-factor. Light fast-fallers (ie most top-tiers) simply DI'ed down and away and they'd live. Unless you were playing a few characters like Rosalina, Kirby, or Jigglypuff (most of whom were low-tier and rare), the combo was never a threat unless you had terrible DI. MK's actual metagame has long since moved away from it but general opinions insist that it is still a defining piece of his gameplan.

Instead of discussing outdated techniques, why not actually talk about MK's match-ups against the meta characters? You know, like we do with most other characters? I'll take the honor.

S4 MK had generally good MU's against the FE cast, but his advantages over them were lost in the transition. Previously he went even/slightly won vs Marcina because he could punish their whiffs from mid-range, especially aerials. For example, whenever they swung fair in a SH, they would have to sustain at least 16 frames of landing, along with ending lag depending on when they used it during the SH. If they delayed the fair till the very end of the SH, the whole action would have a start-up of more than 20 frames (5f jumpsquat + the whole SHFF animation). In both cases, that is well above human reaction time and enough for MK to throw out a burst punish. The same rule applies to the rest of their aerials, and a similar dynamic existed in MK's MU's vs Roy and Ike.

In Ultimate however, the FE characters all have 3f jumpsquats and much lower landing lag on their aerials, and the nerfs to shields make their pressure even more oppressive. Compared to the above example, Marcina's fair has 10 frames of landing lag, faster than anyone can react. They also have very good tilts (Marcina f tilt in particular) and smashes, so the new dash mechanics are a boon to them; MK's tilts are nothing to write home about (d tilt is fast but inconsistent, u tilt has terrible horizontal range), and so are his smashes aside from f smash, and his best button was always available through dashing anyway. The FE cast can use dash cancelling to great effect in punishing MK's burst options; Lucina dashing-back, dashing-forward into an f smash is going to be very scary for MK attempting a burst punish or SH approach. To his benefit, Marcina can't do jab 1 -> anything anymore, but MK gets the shorter end of the stick because the neutral is that much harder now for him and his KO set-ups are less effective. Marcina, Chrom, and Ike can threaten a kill with safe neutral options while he lacks that threat (Roy is less threatening for obvious reasons), MK's f smash is safe but only out for 1 frame and easy to avoid. Edge-guarding is easier in general but the FE cast can defend themselves quite well offstage.

The Fox match-up also got harder. He's surprisingly difficult to combo, because MK's launchers are horizontal, and combined with Fox's physics and DI'ing down or down-away, he gets launched farther horizontally than most characters. MK had to rely on shield-grabs to counter Fox's aerials and that option is much weaker now. Furthermore, this is one of the few MU's where the air dodge changes hurt MK more than they help, as Fox's combos and vortex's are even deadlier than before. MK has an easier time edge-guarding Fox, but I don't think it makes up for a neutral that's even more difficult than it was, and taking ludicrous punishment for one slip-up. MK has more difficulty landing a KO while Fox still has dangerous kill combos and tech-chases.

The Wolf MU is very similar to Fox MU, major difference being that Wolf has a notably harder time landing kills. Combined with Wolf's much slower ground speed and shorter recovery, I can see MK-Wolf being an even MU, or slightly in the former's favor.

I still haven't watched and/or formulated an opinion on other important MU's (namely Snake, Pikachu, Pichu, and Inkling), so I'll leave those for another post.

Point is, MK is objectively slightly better in this game, but relative to the cast he seems to be in a worse spot. Rags is no longer using MK, and I've gone through results of tourneys so far, and most of the MK placements have him as a secondary or supported by secondaries, with only 2 top 8 placements AFAIK (in Umebura and WNF). He's still very decent but I expect his playerbase to be very small due to his lack of reliable jank or wow factor.
 
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Ulevo

Smash Master
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Dec 5, 2007
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Unlimited Blade Works
It is very hard to judge where Meta Knight is right now because of how different the cast is. There are some things that are improved and some things that are quite worse. He lost up throw’s platform kill potential, Dimensional Cape is worse as a reset to neutral, dash attack has a worse hit box and is harder to land due to the general movement and safety of the game, his combo tree is not as expansive and frame-traps are quite rare. He does have ladder combos with legit windows but the execution is hard due to his increased air speed plus the physics, and the Battlefield ceilings making vertical kill options happen 8-9% later which sometimes ruin the ladder windows (there are also a lot of Battlefield ceilings). He can 2F recoveries with Mach Tornado. Forward Air 1 into Shuttle Loop is a reliable kill confirm but it happens 110-120+. Odds are he is a good character but he is not easy to use and be consistent with.
 

Phosphophyllite

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
29
Some more thoughts after some more play and deliberation, for both characters I play and characters I've played against.

:ultbowser: is still really good, I know people were doomsaying with the loss of the up throw up air but everything else that Bowser got in compensation is more than worth it. His disadvantage state is still probably the worst in the game but it's far better than it was in Smash 4, he still has the exact same scary factor of being so fast and having so many moves that can kill you. The new down smash seems okay, looks like a decent edgeguarding tool if you don't feel like going off the ledge.

:ultdoc: is automatically better thanks to the Mario nerfs, now there's actually a reason to potentially go with Doc over Mario thanks to his sheer raw power. Tornado is better than ever for pretty much all situations, his only real concern for me is that even with how much faster Ultimate is, he still feels and moves like Smash 4 Doc, considering how much faster the movement as a whole I fear the lack of it could hurt Doc in the long run.

:ultlittlemac: has pretty much the same gameplan and style as he did in Smash 4, but with the much needed changes for going offstage plus the little tweaks here and there. New KO punch is nice, even though it KOs later it's still scary since being at any high percent against Mac is not what you want. Still gets blown up by the usual stuff though, the big influx of :ultyounglink::ultisabelle::ultsimon: players makes for a nice little reminder of how patient you have to play Mac sometimes. Mac isn't going to be top tier anytime soon but being sent off stage isn't a total death sentence anymore and the little changes to his jumps and his aerials could mean that the galaxy brain Mac players might be able to get some new Air Mac tech going.

:ultmiifighters:Been messing around with Gunner, they do feel much better already. The recovery buff has helped them so much and as a whole their kit feels a lot stronger overall, it'll get even better once people start experimenting proper with the different specials to see what works best for them. I feel like charge shot is still going to be their go to neutral though, Gunner's biggest flaw of struggling to kill is still there. They have good tools to force people away from them, Utilt and Dtilt are both great ways to pop someone in the air and follow up with some Uairs to scare opponents away to give you a chance to charge the shot, and with the default flame pillar you can easily rack up damage to get to the kill percents where their kill moves can work. I have hopes for them but considering their flaws are pretty prominent still, remains to be seen if Gunner can get some attention.

:ultridley: Absolutely being slept on, not in the "omg ridley secret s tier" but more in a "He's not trash stop making assumptions". I think this mindset comes from the fact that Ridley's only thing that really insane is his down special, which you're never going to hit on a functioning human being in a 1v1 scenario. He's kinda like Charizard but trading power for movement, he can get kills decently well, chase you off stage reliably, projectile isn't the best but it's a good way to cover your movement. His only really issue I've noticed, aside from the usual big boi issue of being able to be combo'd easy, is how his moves don't have as much range as you'd think, especially moves with his tail. Plus the little weird things like how his up smash hits behind him first and how forward smash has deceptively short horizontal range but can somehow hit people standing on platforms from below, that's the only thing about Ridley that has me raising eyebrows.
 

Phosphophyllite

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
29
In regards to :ultmetaknight: specifically, I think he's going to be okay. This does remind me very much of the beginning of Smash 4, when everyone knew MK was going to get nerfed and everyone just wrote him off as irrelevant because he wasn't Brawl MK anymore. Feels just like my previous post about :ultbowser:, loses his grab combo/kill confirm and everyone assumes that it's the end of the road for them, but people forget just how dominate MK can be. I feel like he can still get kills decently well, considering just how fast his movement and move set is, it's hard to get MK off you once he has momentum, not to mention he's one of the best characters off stage in a game where going off stage is a lot less safe, he can easily chase you off stage and kill you with a Fair, Bair or Nair, as well as in the disadvantage just kinda hang around off stage and gather himself to rethink a game plan or just leave the opponent guessing on what they're going to do next. Plus the big factor, the combos are still there. With adaption and understanding how new MK works, top MK players will be able to get a consistent combo game after enough labbing I think.
 

Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
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Paris, France
People are overrating powershield a LOT.

What do you think will happen when people start to go for a parry on a regular basis? Swordies will just delay their attack and punish you. Yes, it can be rewarding sometimes, yes, people are unfamiliar with it at the moment, but it won't change as much as you think it will. Long range moves that you can supposedly parry will still stay strong and relevant, there is a LOT of counterplay to parrying.

Needless to say, since it's basically useless against most projectiles, it doesn't matter if people shield it or powershield it, the result will be the same.

Projectiles are extremely strong in this game, and it's never a good thing IMO : Projectile-based characters are usually the easiest to play since the onus is on the other player to deal with the projectile, and it's much harder to counter a hitbox than to throw out a safe one, hence why we see those characters falling in the tier list throughout the months :4megaman::4villager::4rob: (should I even be explaining this?). Obviously, a few characters have some tricks they need time to develop, so they don't drop that bad or at all :4duckhunt:

Overcentralizing projectiles forces people to pick characters that can contest the zoning with either huge speed or long range. Since shielding is so bad, if you don't own a reliable reflector, you're forced to jump over them, meaning airspeed & fallspeed are heavily favoured.

All those attributes are already what make characters good (being a fastfaller is extremely good, especially in this game where combos on them are nerfed and airdodge FAF depends on fall speed ; range & mobility, I don't have to explain), meaning the gap between already low tier characters and others is further emphasized.

Obviously people here (and everywhere else tbh) don't play bad characters and like to say that the game is balanced, but it's clearly not.

I've read someone above say that no one was unplayable, but trust me, when you start losing to people you beat with half the roster on SSBB/Smash4 with :ultkirby: and you're forced to pick anything else to be able to actually play, you can deem that character unplayable. And I'm sure it's not the only character to feel that way.

To put it simply, there are less bad characters in this game (% wise), but the few that are indeed bad feel worse to play than in Smash4.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
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Oh, yeah, this game is way way way more hilariously imbalanced than Smash 4. People will understand this soon enough but the importance of character pick over skill is inflated compared to its predecessor.

It's not hard to see why either. Universal defensive options are worse, everyone knows that. This means that every character is far more reliant on its moveset, and not all movesets are created equally.

Characters with small hitboxes, for example, can no longer just rely on timely shielding or rolls or SH airdodges to play neutral. That's exactly why swordies are looking so strong and oppressive right now, and the effect isn't isolated to swords vs. non-swords, but to every attribute that makes a move good, such as startup time.
 
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Rizen

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Take this with a grain of salt because it's largely theory based on fighting lv9 CPUs:

So far I think :ultwolf: is :ultyounglink:'s worst MU. There are a lot of better characters but YL has a gameplan vs them, usually with projectiles. Wolf plays the same zoning game as YL and while YL technically outcamps him, blaster with bayonet, reflector and sideB to catch SHs make it so minimal it's irrelevant. YL likes to combo off his projectiles but getting close enough is met with blaster so YL has trouble linking attacks. Wolf has no trouble with his Fair/Uair chains. Wolf's faster on the ground with a F4 jab vs YL's f6 jab, and a normal grab. Wolf's Nair functions similarly but is bigger. Wolf's Bair is slightly faster than YL's Fair, its equivalent, and wolf has faster air speed. With them both playing the same spacing game there are a lot of trades and Wolf wins trades. He's heavier and stronger. It's like if YL was fighting himself but with one side getting a 60% damage handicap. The only advantage YL has is exploiting Wolf's poor recovery.
 
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DiamondDust132

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How much has :ultpeach: changed from the other games, she feels a lot like PM?
More Smash 4 than PM. She has a lot of difficult tech that makes her rather challenging to play. You can sort of get away with the same strats as PM, but from personal experience, you shouldn't approach her like you would in that game.
 
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|RK|

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Myollnir Myollnir It doesn't matter that parrying has counterplay; in fact, that's the very point.

I say it often, but for everyone who doesn't know: in my free time, I fence sabre. Parries exist in sabre - obviously in a different way - but the general concept is similar. By reacting or predicting an opponent's attack, you can move your blade in such a way that deflects theirs - allowing you to counterattack.

Obviously, parries aren't an option without counterplay - they'd be gamebreaking and overpowered otherwise. So, how do you beat a parry? Just like Myo suggested for Smash - you delay your attack. Personally, I like extending my attack in a way that lets me see the parry, then reacting to hit my opponent when they're vulnerable. Alternatively, you can fake an attack in one direction, then attack in the other to throw them off.

Now, here's the thing - sabre is the fastest and most aggressive of the three fencing weapons. The goal, once you've made a parry, isn't necessarily to go for another. Putting the action in your opponent's mind is good enough, since now they WANT to delay their attack. Sabre has a rule called "right of way." For the sake of simplification, this says that whoever is attacking first gets the point. So when your opponent delays their attack, you want to take advantage of this in order to launch your own.

That's the strategy of the game - I take a parry & attack to win one point, then, I take advantage of their delay in order to win another point. That's a very basic strategy - but obvious, mindgames, counterattacks, and disguised intentions make the sport richer - similar to fighting games.

So, bringing this all back to Smash - parrying SHOULD have counterplay. The threat of it comes from the reward each character can get off of a parry. For a Smash-centric example, consider Witch Time. Yes, you could delay your attack - but that delay opened up many advantages for Bayo players, elevating her neutral far beyond what it seemed on the surface.

Obviously, parrying isn't quite as versatile as Witch Time. But just like it, the advantage it gives will come from the reward a character or player can get from it. If people keep getting tilts from it? Sure - it hardly changes anything. But if you can kill off of a parry starting around 60 or so? Now it's an option to be feared - and the "counterplay" becomes worse.

I think dismissing it offhand isn't right - it's already playing a critical role in the meta & will only get stronger.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Oh, yeah, this game is way way way more hilariously imbalanced than Smash 4. People will understand this soon enough but the importance of character pick over skill is inflated compared to its predecessor.

It's not hard to see why either. Universal defensive options are worse, everyone knows that. This means that every character is far more reliant on its moveset, and not all movesets are created equally.

Characters with small hitboxes, for example, can no longer just rely on timely shielding or rolls or SH airdodges to play neutral. That's exactly why swordies are looking so strong and oppressive right now, and the effect isn't isolated to swords vs. non-swords, but to every attribute that makes a move good, such as startup time.

I don't believe it's that horribly unbalanced. Considering smash 4 was legit pre patch diddy diddy and sheik and then cloud and bayo this game seems way more healthy. Also rosalina invalidated like 75% of the cast.

The defensive characters seem very strong at the moment (snake olimar and belmonts). As the game progresses they'll continue to get stronger. Not only that but I believe some other projectile heavy characters will follow them (T.link Y.link and Mega Man). I believe that the flashy offensive stuff will eventually be outpaced by strong defensive characters.

Also characters that I'm unsure of are wii fit and pac man. I don't believe them to be terrible characters but haven't seen enough from them yet.

One of the things that I found disappointing in ultimate is that some of the weird characters mains from sm4sh have dropped them for top tiers.
 

LightLV

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Honestly Inhale hasn’t really been a good gimping move since probably Brawl. If you’re not going for Copy, you pretty much use it to get around shields on platforms or to get stage control with a spit off stage. All other uses are blatantly gimmicky save for spitting certain projectiles back as stars when you get the chance and even this is super situational.

I believe its RNG drop rate is it’s only glaring issue when it comes to Kirby’s viability as a fighter. But it’s a pressing issue nevertheless and if the rate of loss is indeed higher it needs to corrected eventually for Kirby to have a shot at being a true contender. His Copy Abiltiy is more essential to his success overall than ever, and potentially losing the powers more easily just makes it harder to abuse to its full potential than it should be.
The reason i just gave up on Kirby early due to Inhale/Copy is because I honestly can't come up with a single justifying reason for such staple moves in his kit to be held back by such extreme drawbacks.

Honestly, most of the characters in the game have gotten very clear practicality buffs to their techniques. Kirby's move seems way too....oldschool smash. As in, he really doesn't seem to have been designed with the same principles in mind as most of the other characters in the game. It's just not worth struggling through.

Some changes i'd suggest:

-Increase his air speed OR increase his initial jump height. He's got way too much trouble pushing an advantage.

-Inhale should have more utility (as in, it should have utility as an attack outside of copying, being able to walk around with inhaled foes is worthless due to how easy the break is)

-Hammer should at LEAST have decently high shield damage on block, it's slow as ****. The reward on-hit isnt that amazing and it's purely disadvantageous on block, which is bad because Kirby has a really tough time actually catching opponents on this game.
 
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boysilver400

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-Hammer should at LEAST have decently high shield damage on block, it's slow as ****. The reward on-hit isnt that amazing and it's purely disadvantageous on block, which is bad because Kirby has a really tough time actually catching opponents on this game.
This is a good suggestion, but I also think hammer should be shield canceled to give him mix up options.

Edit: And to add, I think he should also be able to choose whether he swallows/heals on projectiles, or spits them back out. And the bigger the projectile, the more he gets healed.
 
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KakuCP9

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IMO I think the biggest effect parry will have is making aerial approaches a liability since there's usually a set timing for an aerial to reach you and unlike ground approaches, they usually don't have the freedom of movement to bait your parry safely so you just hold shield and drop it when you sense the aerial coming. Even if they land without doing anything, you can smack them with your own aerial OOS when they're close by.
Though to be honest, dashing so powerful that the game is probably going to more grounded on principle. Speaking of which, most of the perceived top tier have good ground games so I can see them staying on the same standing until nerfed (also most the perceived bad characters have bad ground games so they'll probably stay bad).
 
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PK Gaming

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Oh, yeah, this game is way way way more hilariously imbalanced than Smash 4. People will understand this soon enough but the importance of character pick over skill is inflated compared to its predecessor.

It's not hard to see why either. Universal defensive options are worse, everyone knows that. This means that every character is far more reliant on its moveset, and not all movesets are created equally.

Characters with small hitboxes, for example, can no longer just rely on timely shielding or rolls or SH airdodges to play neutral. That's exactly why swordies are looking so strong and oppressive right now, and the effect isn't isolated to swords vs. non-swords, but to every attribute that makes a move good, such as startup time.
I emphatically disagree. Player skill is more important than ever, (partly due to 3 stock format leading to more consistent games) and partly due to the game having a higher skill ceiling than Smash 4. There's simply more than can be done here, with movement in particular being extremely important to master in comparison to Smash 4. To put it another way, the difference between a good player and a weaker player is more noticeable, and even weaker character's have a (narrow) path to victory due to how volatile damage is in this game.

Also while far from ideal, character balance is certainly more preferable to Smash 4.
 
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Gearkeeper-8a

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It's totally normal for a old player to switch to a top tier or high tier character especially if they used a mid tier in smash 4, they don't want to waste time with them in another game, even if the old character improved, unless they look really good, like :ultpeach:,:ultpikachu:,:ultshulk:, :ultluigi:,:ultsnake:, :ultroy: , now the interest question would be what characters would end being top tiers of this game, there are characters that look strong but not quite yet, like there isn't a :4diddy: equivalent yet, these are easy to find, because how strong are the options they have compared to the rest of the cast.
 

Impaled

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It's totally normal for a old player to switch to a top tier or high tier character especially if they used a mid tier in smash 4, they don't want to waste time with them in another game, even if the old character improved, unless they look really good, like :ultpeach:,:ultpikachu:,:ultshulk:, :ultluigi:,:ultsnake:, :ultroy: , now the interest question would be what characters would end being top tiers of this game, there are characters that look strong but not quite yet, like there isn't a :4diddy: equivalent yet, these are easy to find, because how strong are the options they have compared to the rest of the cast.
Can you explain what you are looking at when you say some chars look good(those u listed for ex) for someone who just playes casually with friends most of the time?
 

Y2Kay

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I hope y’all are witnessing how powerful Fox still is on NYXL.

Anyone putting Fox below top tier is full of melarkey, imo.

:150:
 

Heracr055

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It's totally normal for a old player to switch to a top tier or high tier character especially if they used a mid tier in smash 4, they don't want to waste time with them in another game, even if the old character improved, unless they look really good, like :ultpeach:,:ultpikachu:,:ultshulk:, :ultluigi:,:ultsnake:, :ultroy: , now the interest question would be what characters would end being top tiers of this game, there are characters that look strong but not quite yet, like there isn't a :4diddy: equivalent yet, these are easy to find, because how strong are the options they have compared to the rest of the cast.
-Smash 4 Peach and Pikachu
-Mid tier

Yeah that's incorrect
Also I've been underestimating Ultimate Wolf quite a bit. That's one of those odd MUs where the character seems decent on paper, but is tougher in practice

Edit: Peach was not mid tier or lower
 
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Gearkeeper-8a

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Can you explain what you are looking at when you say some chars look good(those u listed for ex) for someone who just playes casually with friends most of the time?
Well, depends of the type of the character, but normaly they are fast, with good recovery, and fast framedata, but these things can be interchanged, but normally a top tier has these characteristics.
 

Here Rests A Cemetery

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-Smash 4 Peach and Pikachu
-Mid tier

Yeah that's incorrect
Also I've been underestimating Ultimate Wolf quite a bit. That's one of those odd MUs where the character seems decent on paper, but is tougher in practice
Peach was mid tier, only had Samsora's results propping her up. I'll give you Pikachu though, that's not a mid tier character.
 
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|RK|

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Oh, as for Kirby - Myo is really smart, and many of his points have merit. However, I'm not passing judgment on the character yet - not until I figure out the game better.
 

TimG57867

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The reason i just gave up on Kirby early due to Inhale/Copy is because I honestly can't come up with a single justifying reason for such staple moves in his kit to be held back by such extreme drawbacks.

Honestly, most of the characters in the game have gotten very clear practicality buffs to their techniques. Kirby's move seems way too....oldschool smash. As in, he really doesn't seem to have been designed with the same principles in mind as most of the other characters in the game. It's just not worth struggling through.

Some changes i'd suggest:

-Increase his air speed OR increase his initial jump height. He's got way too much trouble pushing an advantage.

-Inhale should have more utility (as in, it should have utility as an attack outside of copying, being able to walk around with inhaled foes is worthless due to how easy the break is)

-Hammer should at LEAST have decently high shield damage on block, it's slow as ****. The reward on-hit isnt that amazing and it's purely disadvantageous on block, which is bad because Kirby has a really tough time actually catching opponents on this game.
Honestly I would be fine with Inhale as is if the work you went through to get the Copy couldn't be loss with a single RNG roll (Although I wouldn't mind the Grab Box being bigger). Even if the rate is unchanged from SSB4, the fact that it's a roll in general has always been the true devil in utilizing it. It would be so much better if losing it came down to a percent threshold so that you could work with it more consistently. At the very least we can only hope the RNG is improved in the future.

As for the buffs, a lot them sound great. I have actually gone over changes that could make Kirby quite potent in the meta myself. For how simple Kirby's kit is at a glance, I firmly believe that his kit, like most characters, it can actually be very effective when implemented correctly. With the right air speed, frame data, and special tweaking Kirby could actually gain quite a ton from Ultimate's physics. But the archaic number values Kirby's kit has maintained for the most part since Brawl continue to hold it back. Ultimate Kirby's kit is the most capable kit I've seen from him in a long time, but it still needs to tuning to reach its full potential. But like RK I remain optimistic for now.

I hope y’all are witnessing how powerful Fox still is on NYXL.

Anyone putting Fox below top tier is full of melarkey, imo.

:150:
Tell me about it. In the all the talk I see about likely top tiers I always see Inklings, Swordies, Olimar, Palutena, etc getting all the attention while :ultfox: is borderline ignored for that standing. Like hello? His movement across stage is as insane as ever, a lot of bread and betters still seem to work, he can now get all his attacks out of a dash now which is perfect because not only is he still super fast with a great Up Smash and Up Tilt, but his D-Tilt has newfound setup opportunity as well which just adds to his options, his mains seem to be finding new kill setups all the time (Just found out he can get first hit of his Up Air on landing into all his Smashes....), doesn't mind the grab nerfs to much as his throws don't do much anyway, and with air dodge nuked his juggle game is deadlier than ever. His disadvantage got a bit worse with the nerfs to Phantasm (slower and doesn't go through shield), nerfs to Reflector (can only stall once now), and not being able to air dodge as freely himself. But honestly, when you look all the tradeoffs, Fox honestly got a crazy good deal especially compared to a lot of former SSB4 top tiers. I honestly couldn't get why he was so under the radar in early top tier discussion given all this. Perhaps Light's performance will give him some much deserved attention.
 
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