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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    563

Thinkaman

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Normally it takes DLC awhile to rise to their full performance level, but not always. :4cloud: and :ultpyra: were far easier/faster to pick up than other DLCs, behaving similarly to a wide variety of very popular characters. Between this and the nature of online, it will be curious to see how much further she can go.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Normally it takes DLC awhile to rise to their full performance level, but not always. :4cloud: and :ultpyra: were far easier/faster to pick up than other DLCs, behaving similarly to a wide variety of very popular characters. Between this and the nature of online, it will be curious to see how much further she can go.

I think :ultjoker:also got really strong resutls pretty quickly after his release. If thanks to MKLeo immediately maining him and other top players like Zackray picking him up soon after Speaking of which it may possible that Pyra/Mythra may see some minor nerfs if they similar get lits of results very quickly.

Pyra/Mythra offline is going to be a complete mystery. I think its safe to say that Pyra gets at slightly buffed online due to maby of her best buttons as well as Blazing end being harder to punish.

Mythra however may end up being buffed with Foresight being better offline and all those crazy tech and combo vids we hsve seen possibly being easier or more viable. Then again Mythra neutral does have some slight cracks in the first seemingly impetrable foundation. Notabally many of her airiels are not quite as safe on shield as the seem, and that can likely be explioted better offline. We also have to take into account edgegauding them is potentially easier offline
 
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Emblem Lord

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Thoughts on Collision results.

Aegis craps on G&W. Another rough match for him. They outbutton him. Outspace him. Frame data? lol. Stop. I do not see G&W doing well in the meta if Aegis remains strong not to mention Cloud and other strong sword fighters still exist.

ESAM lost to Riddles. In ESAM's latest tier list he had Terry beneath Ken and Ryu. Interesting. I wonder if his thoughts have changed.
Speaking of Riddles, he took 3rd. Terry continues to show consistency in an online environment and that he can handle most chars. He lost to Maister and Sparg0, but he has beaten them before and he basically trades wins with them. He is the one that sent Sparg0 to losers actually.

Cloud is also still showing that he is strong on wifi as we have known since Smash 4. He is definitely a force and a viable choice in this environment. Aegis will pull away from Cloud's community for sure though as both Cloud and Aegis are fairly easy to play. I am curious to see if Sparg0 will go more Aegis when in person tournaments become a thing again.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Thoughts on Collision results.

Aegis craps on G&W. Another rough match for him. They outbutton him. Outspace him. Frame data? lol. Stop. I do not see G&W doing well in the meta if Aegis remains strong not to mention Cloud and other strong sword fighters still exist.

ESAM lost to Riddles. In ESAM's latest tier list he had Terry beneath Ken and Ryu. Interesting. I wonder if his thoughts have changed.
Speaking of Riddles, he took 3rd. Terry continues to show consistency in an online environment and that he can handle most chars. He lost to Maister and Sparg0, but he has beaten them before and he basically trades wins with them. He is the one that sent Sparg0 to losers actually.

Cloud is also still showing that he is strong on wifi as we have known since Smash 4. He is definitely a force and a viable choice in this environment. Aegis will pull away from Cloud's community for sure though as both Cloud and Aegis are fairly easy to play. I am curious to see if Sparg0 will go more Aegis when in person tournaments become a thing again.

ESAM also lost to Epic Gabriel 3-0 and he always says R.O.B is not top-tier. Also if Sepiroth also becomes more popular online that is another MU G&W also will not like. Min-Min also may be kinda suspect
 
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SKX31

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Cloud is also still showing that he is strong on wifi as we have known since Smash 4. He is definitely a force and a viable choice in this environment. Aegis will pull away from Cloud's community for sure though as both Cloud and Aegis are fairly easy to play. I am curious to see if Sparg0 will go more Aegis when in person tournaments become a thing again.
I find that question really interesting - while the girls look on paper stronger than Cloud (to say the least, and this is coming from someone who thinks Cloud is still solidly high tier offline), I kinda get the impression that Mythra / Pyra have some weaknesses that Cloud is able to cover and vice versa. In particular, I'm kinda thinking that Mythra might struggle vs. characters that can match her frame data and not be completely outranged like G&W is (in particular :ultgreninja: and :ultlucina: , even characters like :ultfalco: might be a bit of a pain to deal with for her) since trades might not favor her in quite a lot of cases while Pyra might not do that well vs. out of shield characters because they can punish Pyra on whiff. Cloud meanwhile does have out of shield options and can trade decently.

Cloud's struggles with killing heavyweights is something Mythra / Pyra can cover extremely easy. Neither of the girls lack kill confirms or options, and their combined advantage state can be absurd.

Of course, this is all theorycraft and I could be completely off on this. I don't think Sparg0 will shift away from Cloud completely, but instead add :ultpyra: to his arsenal (since that looks to be where the top pros are heading towards - using multiple characters to cover bad main matchups like ESAM adding Min Min or Tweek adding Sephiroth). And that's regardless of whether he'll continue to main Cloud or shift to maining Mythra / Pyra.

And I don't doubt that :ultpyra: will likely pull away from Cloud's community, but I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud has a strong remaining community.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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I find that question really interesting - while the girls look on paper stronger than Cloud (to say the least, and this is coming from someone who thinks Cloud is still solidly high tier offline), I kinda get the impression that Mythra / Pyra have some weaknesses that Cloud is able to cover and vice versa. In particular, I'm kinda thinking that Mythra might struggle vs. characters that can match her frame data and not be completely outranged like G&W is (in particular :ultgreninja: and :ultlucina: , even characters like :ultfalco: might be a bit of a pain to deal with for her) since trades might not favor her in quite a lot of cases while Pyra might not do that well vs. out of shield characters because they can punish Pyra on whiff. Cloud meanwhile does have out of shield options and can trade decently.

Cloud's struggles with killing heavyweights is something Mythra / Pyra can cover extremely easy. Neither of the girls lack kill confirms or options, and their combined advantage state can be absurd.

Of course, this is all theorycraft and I could be completely off on this. I don't think Sparg0 will shift away from Cloud completely, but instead add :ultpyra: to his arsenal (since that looks to be where the top pros are heading towards - using multiple characters to cover bad main matchups like ESAM adding Min Min or Tweek adding Sephiroth). And that's regardless of whether he'll continue to main Cloud or shift to maining Mythra / Pyra.

And I don't doubt that :ultpyra: will likely pull away from Cloud's community, but I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud has a strong remaining community.
A theory I have is that he’s going to take the route of Leo and Tweek in Smash 4 by using 3 characters.

He’s claiming to potentially using Roy as a 3rd character, so Sparg0’s :ultcloud:,:ultpyra: and:ultroy: could end up being his equivalent of Leo’s:4cloud2:,:4marth:and :4metaknight:.
BTW, some more vods of Sparg0’s Pyra/Mythra.
 

Rizen

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A theory I have is that he’s going to take the route of Leo and Tweek in Smash 4 by using 3 characters.

He’s claiming to potentially using Roy as a 3rd character, so Sparg0’s :ultcloud:,:ultpyra: and:ultroy: could end up being his equivalent of Leo’s:4cloud2:,:4marth:and :4metaknight:.
BTW, some more vods of Sparg0’s Pyra/Mythra.
Add getting 2nd in Proving Grounds with partial Pyra/Mythra to the growing list of their accomplishments in this short time. Tell me if I missed any. So far we've got MKLeo getting 2nd at the Mexican Regional Qualifiers with partial PM and first going all them for frame perfect series. Spargo going full PM to win a Juice box, partial PM to win another and Collision and Shuton using mostly them to get 5th at the Japan online qualifier. They also have reps in Void and Cosmos, who I've yet to see enter a tournament with them.

What tournaments has :ultpikachu: won again?
 

StrangeKitten

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:ult_terry:getting good placements just cements my feelings that he's the best command input character. They're a very strong archetype who don't really need comeback mechanics, so when you give them one? Just adds spice to the sauce.
 

TennisBall

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Add getting 2nd in Proving Grounds with partial Pyra/Mythra to the growing list of their accomplishments in this short time. Tell me if I missed any. So far we've got MKLeo getting 2nd at the Mexican Regional Qualifiers with partial PM and first going all them for frame perfect series. Spargo going full PM to win a Juice box, partial PM to win another and Collision and Shuton using mostly them to get 5th at the Japan online qualifier. They also have reps in Void and Cosmos, who I've yet to see enter a tournament with them.

What tournaments has :ultpikachu: won again?
Glitch 7 (Offline), Return to Subspace, GOML Southeast USA Qualifier, Juice Box #22 (Online)

Looking through ShinyMark and ESAM's data anyways and not counting small events or locals.
 
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Rizen

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:ult_terry:getting good placements just cements my feelings that he's the best command input character. They're a very strong archetype who don't really need comeback mechanics, so when you give them one? Just adds spice to the sauce.
Terry's basically two characters. You have mild mannered Terry, who's probably a little better than the shotos. He has very safe buttons that lead into specials for damage and kills. I'd put him at the top of mid tier.
Then you have Go! Terry, who has all that plus unlimited freaking limit breaks. Go Terry is easily a top tier and can dish out 50%+ by just touching you and comboing it into buster wolf. Power geyser has an AoE the size of a final smash. Terry gets a lot scarier after 100%.
Glitch 7 (Offline), Return to Subspace, GOML Southeast USA Qualifier, Juice Box #22 (Online)

Looking through ShinyMark and ESAM's data anyways and not counting small events or locals.
Right and he's been out the entire lifespan of Ultimate. The reason I've brought it up is people put Pika as top 3 when he rarely does anything but are still reluctant to say PMythra's busted and she's already pulling big results.
 
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Wigglerman

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I'd say in 'fairness' to Pikachu his player base is astronomically small compared to even low tiers. If he had a stronger player base to put 'Pika Theory' to the test then I wonder if we'd be singing a different tune by now (Either he is indeed worse than people like to believe or he is indeed AS good as people like to believe). It doesn't help everyone and their mother wanted to jump on the Sword Waifu train as soon as they were revealed. I felt it was a no brainer day 1 they were insanely good if not outright busted. So now they will, of course, continue to get plenty of representation among the player base while Pika remains stagnant (Nothing new as Pika isn't typically a popular pick in virtually any Smash game outside of 64).
 
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I'd say in 'fairness' to Pikachu his player base is astronomically small compared to even low tiers. If he had a stronger player base to put 'Pika Theory' to the test then I wonder if we'd be singing a different tune by now (Either he is indeed worse than people like to believe or he is indeed AS good as people like to believe). It doesn't help everyone and their mother wanted to jump on the Sword Waifu train as soon as they were revealed. I felt it was a no brainer day 1 they were insanely good if not outright busted. So now they will, of course, continue to get plenty of representation among the player base while Pika remains stagnant (Nothing new as Pika isn't typically a popular pick in virtually any Smash game outside of 64).
I'm looking back at the recent PGStats Online bracket data, and if anything, the play rate of Pikachu isn't small. It's actually above the median for overall play rate (ranked 36th) and below the median (ranked 43rd). And according to a reddit post, the Pikachu discord isn't small in size at all compared to other characters (in fact, it's among the top 15 as of over a month ago, but it could be partially inflated by non-Pikachu players seeking advise on how to play against the rat). It could be the case that there are not as many top-level Pikachu players as other players of other top to high-tier characters (which we know), but for overall use (and in terms of Pikachu's player base if the overall online bracket play rate can be considered a sample), the character isn't rare or even uncommon. Just middle-of-the-road usage. Or maybe even above that.
 
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Zachmac

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Terry's basically two characters. You have mild mannered Terry, who's probably a little better than the shotos. He has very safe buttons that lead into specials for damage and kills. I'd put him at the top of mid tier.
Then you have Go! Terry, who has all that plus unlimited freaking limit breaks. Go Terry is easily a top tier and can dish out 50%+ by just touching you and comboing it into buster wolf. Power geyser has an AoE the size of a final smash. Terry gets a lot scarier after 100%.
Okay but the Terry we have isn't always with or without Go Meter. Ranking Terry with or without Go Meter separately is even sillier then ranking Pokemon Trainer's team separately.

It's like saying Dedede is a top tier when he has you in a ledge trapping situation, or that Jigglypuff is top tier when she gets you off stage. If you're only top tier some of the time when the situation is favorable...then you're not top tier.

And even if we were to theoretically allow handicap in competitive play and Terry players could start at 100%, the high damage he'd start at would make him far too fragile for Buster Wolf of Power Geyser to fully outweigh it. The reason he's so powerful then is because by the point he's reached Go status, you've probably taken some damage to.
 

Rizen

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Okay but the Terry we have isn't always with or without Go Meter. Ranking Terry with or without Go Meter separately is even sillier then ranking Pokemon Trainer's team separately.

It's like saying Dedede is a top tier when he has you in a ledge trapping situation, or that Jigglypuff is top tier when she gets you off stage. If you're only top tier some of the time when the situation is favorable...then you're not top tier.

And even if we were to theoretically allow handicap in competitive play and Terry players could start at 100%, the high damage he'd start at would make him far too fragile for Buster Wolf of Power Geyser to fully outweigh it. The reason he's so powerful then is because by the point he's reached Go status, you've probably taken some damage to.
I was just expressing how much more of a threat Terry is with Go, not that his states should be separated. IMO he ends up a solid high tier overall. I probably could have expressed that better.
 
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WatwatBreton

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Tbh of all the """comeback""" mechanics (a term I don't think applies much to Terry tbh it's more of a reward for not getting killed early, it doesn't get stronger if you're 2 stocks behind or anything), I think Go! might be the less impactful one? Like it's a nice boost don't get me wrong, but ultimately it's not that relevant in neutral as both Buster Wolf and Power geyser are fairly laggy if you miss. I've seen them used more often as a strict damage output increase, since you can use Buster Wolf in situations you'd use Burning Knuckle in.
Compared to Arsene who turns Joker from a bait and punish character to an absolute murder machine, and wing which does... everything, Terry stays relatively the same character at 100% - just with better numbers, and maybe I'm missing a "you can armor X projectile in Y matchup" application or sth.

Not entirely surprised he does well in online though, auto turn is a godsend against online unreactable crossups, and I assume stuff like mashing jab jab pd or random side-b becomes way more difficult to punish. Reminds me of online greninja in a way - you lose your whiff punish abilities but your best whiff punish tool becomes unpunishable so ¯\(ツ)
 

blackghost

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terry GO isn't a comback mechanic its really a snowball or win more mechanic. outside of lucario and MAYBE sephiroth no one punishes you more for failing to take a stock.

ti think aegis gals will pull from roy and chrom community more than cloud's.
sepiroth might pull from the few remaining corrin players and maybe some byleth as well.
im gonna go watch the collision vods. riddles is always asking if his opponent is ok.
speaking of which where are the vods for collision?
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Speaking of online and offline. We cannot forget that there are several top tier characters that really do not do to well online and have this time. if dropped off in usage during this time. :ultjoker: :ultpeach::ultfox:are just a few examples of top-tier or borderline top-tier characters that become much harder to use online. Mostly because they require either a fair amount of precision or tight combo strings that become much harder in online lag. To the point where many of their top reps do not even try to use them in online tournaments. I mean they are still very good characters that git very good results before the pandemic happened



MKLeo said himself he will co-main Joker and Pyra/Mythra when offline tournaments come back:ultpikachu:might be a victim of the online era as well. I doubt all of his optimal combo loops/strings as well ad edgegaurding get any easier online
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Speaking of online and offline. We cannot forget that there are several top tier characters that really do not do to well online and have this time. if dropped off in usage during this time. :ultjoker: :ultpeach::ultfox:are just a few examples of top-tier or borderline top-tier characters that become much harder to use online. Mostly because they require either high prescison or tight combo strings that become much harder in online lag. All to the point where many of their top reps do not even try to use them in online tournaments

MKLeo said himself he will co-main Joker and Pyra/Mythra when offline tournaments come back
I will say I do think Joker and Pyra/Mythra cover both matchup spreads well. Pyra/Mythra do better against the zoners that Joker struggles with such as :ultmegaman:, :ultpacman: and :ultrob:, while :ultjoker:does better against :ultminmin and:ultshulk:.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Just when I think MKLeo was completely carrying :ultbyleth:, Pelupelu makes it all the way to grands at the frame perfect series only losing to Leo. Good for him.
I guess I forgot to post the results of that tourney here. It happened at April 18th.

Frame Perfect Series 5: Online
1st: MkLeo:ultpyra::ultbyleth:
2nd: Pelupelu:ultbyleth:
3rd: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
4th: Lui$:ultpalutena:
5th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
5th: Colmar:ultpacman:
7th: BassMage:ultjigglypuff:
7th: Marce :/:ultpichu:
9th: Grayclash:ultbayonetta1:
9th: Myran:ultolimar:
9th: varun:ultwiifittrainer:
9th: Joker:ultdarksamus:
13th: Cobra:ultmario:
13th: Mabel:ultdoc:
13th: yonni:ultsteve:
13th: KirbyKid:ultkrool:


Leo only used Byleth to beat Big D 2-0, but outside of that, this is an impressive placement for Byleth thanks to Pelupelu.
 

TennisBall

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The Box: Lunchbox +

1st: Sparg0 :ultpyra::ultcloud:
2nd: Maister:ultgnw:
3rd: BestNess:ultness: :ultsteve:(DQ'd in Losers Finals)
4th: Yez:ultike:
5th: Ned :ultsephiroth::ultpokemontrainer:
5th :SKITTLES!!:ultyounglink:
7th: Chag:ultpalutena:
7th: 9superpie :ultwiifittrainer::ultwario:
9th: Skyjay :ultincineroar:
9th: Lui$ :ultpalutena:
9th: Riddles :ult_terry:
9th: Kiyarash :ultluigi:
13th: Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
13th: Enaromnía:ultrobin:
13th: Mr. E :ultlucina:
13th: WaKa:ultluigi:

During an interview Hungrybox took with him, Sparg0 has mentioned thinking about prioritizing Aegis offline due to being stronger characters.

Data for bracket it's quite interesting and has a few upsets:https://smash.gg/tournament/the-box-lunchbox/event/ultimate-singles/brackets/934466/1487102
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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The Box: Lunchbox +

1st: Sparg0 :ultpyra::ultcloud:
2nd: Maister:ultgnw:
3rd: BestNess:ultness: :ultsteve:(DQ'd in Losers Finals)
4th: Yez:ultike:
5th: Ned :ultsephiroth::ultpokemontrainer:
5th :SKITTLES!!:ultyounglink:
7th: Chag:ultpalutena:
7th: 9superpie :ultwiifittrainer::ultwario:
9th: Skyjay :ultincineroar:
9th: Lui$ :ultpalutena:
9th: Riddles :ult_terry:
9th: Kiyarash :ultluigi:
13th: Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
13th: Enaromnía:ultrobin:
13th: Mr. E :ultlucina:
13th: WaKa:ultluigi:

During an interview Hungrybox took with him, Sparg0 has mentioned thinking about prioritizing Aegis offline due to being stronger characters.

Data for bracket it's quite interesting and has a few upsets:https://smash.gg/tournament/the-box-lunchbox/event/ultimate-singles/brackets/934466/1487102
I think I'm starting to feel bad for Maister at this point. I think Maister needs a :ultpalutena: secondary to deal with a lot of the sword characters.

BTW Armadillo's tier list

 
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duxx

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don't report me its just a joke lol
I think I'm starting to feel bad for Maister at this point. I think Maister needs a :ultpalutena: secondary to deal with a lot of the sword characters.

BTW Armadillo's tier list

I'll be honest, this looks like he slapped every character he didn't know about in the lower tiers. There's no way Villager and Lucas are worse than DK and Bayo. Sephiroth, Byleth, and Lucario look way too high. Byleth is not better than Falcon, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi, Link, and Pichu

edit: also this
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Why do so many pro players still rank :ultrob: so low despite the massive results he got before and during the offline era. I would also say :ultmario: could be a bit higher. They are both lower end of top-tier at least :ultsephiroth: being top 3 is also suspect. I mean he is likely very good but not THAT good
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Why do so many pro players still rank :ultrob: so low despite the massive results he got before and during the offline era. I would also say :ultmario: could be a bit higher. They are both lower end of top-tier at least :ultsephiroth: being top 3 is also suspect. I mean he is likely very good but not THAT good
He admittedly said Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra being in their placements are just predictions based on how Tweek has been playing with the character.
 

blackghost

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Why do so many pro players still rank :ultrob: so low despite the massive results he got before and during the offline era. I would also say :ultmario: could be a bit higher. They are both lower end of top-tier at least :ultsephiroth: being top 3 is also suspect. I mean he is likely very good but not THAT good
we'v been over on this board repeatedly why sephiroth is not an online character.not to mention tweek had his podcast or talk show and laid at a bunch of reasons why sephiroth is likely a top 3 character to top 5 characters.

I'll be honest, this looks like he slapped every character he didn't know about in the lower tiers. There's no way Villager and Lucas are worse than DK and Bayo. Sephiroth, Byleth, and Lucario look way too high. Byleth is not better than Falcon, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi, Link, and Pichu
idk about lucario but if he is a person that favors results then bayo placement over villager and lucas might be valid. I'm a bayo pessimist but she has notable wins and placements as of late getting top 8s and top 10s in multiple recent events and still has a win within the last month. byleth had a non mk leo user get top 2 not to mention leos placements and usage. byleth as a character had her reception as the inverse of aegis. byleth had this wierd week period f people judging her before she was out and everyone just decided she was bad not to mention her backlash of being added. byleth since then has done relatively well and has been buffed. shes a fundamental sword character with range and ledge pressure that can win a lot of games on hard reads. personally, i don't think the character is bad.

i will agree on inkling the character had a huge rush in the first 2 months of ultimate but that hype continues to inflate her placement.
 

KirbySquad101

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Aaaannnddd there goes Sparg0 to prove me wrong after a week or two lol.

I didn’t watch all of his sets (mostly his Maister set), but the most interesting thing to me about his Pythra is that he doesn’t even really go for the duo’s more complicated tech, meticulous swapping, or even use Mythra most of the time. It could definitely be a byproduct of Wi-Fi as the redhead arguably shines more there, but for the most part, it is predominantly the Pyra show, only ever using Mythra to hurl the opponent offstage or to use her better air speed to get out of juggles.

His Pyra doesn’t even go for the more intricate parts of her kit like Blazing End footstools or platform extensions like MKLeo does. In fact, a lot of his gameplay mostly consists of going hard in his aggression when he gets a hit in, especially offstage, and going for really scary 50/50s off of DAir spikes and platform tech chases that earn him those 60/50% kills. It reminds of me a lot of how he wields Cloud in terms of the parallels between their aggressive play, sprinkled in with a bit of Ike-esque early kill confirms.

I won’t deny, it’s a really strong performance, and admittedly, it does paint a strong future for them going forward. That said, there’s two factors to keep in mind: First and obvious, these are Wi-Fi performances, and not everything seen here is going to translate to offline 1 to 1. Secondly, this is Sparg0 we’re considering who - to be fairly honest - might as well be the online equivalent of Zackray. This kid’s won tourneys with Cloud, Steve, and Roy for a while now. While these 1st placings are a sign of things to come, it does lose a little impact for me when he's just as capable of doing this well with some like Steve or Cloud, characters people seem to find far worse than the duo.

That said, if Sparg0 is able to do this well WITHOUT doing their crazier, more difficult things, it does worry what he might be able to accomplish offline WITH Mythra’s 40~50% combos, Pyra’s Blazing End footstools, etc.

Since I am on the topic of Sparg0, one more thing I’d like to add is that in the midst of Sparg0 sweeping online tournaments left and right and skewering practically every Wi-Fi Warrior he’s been fighting online, I do find it weird that it’s specifically Maister’s character that’s targeted as having a sword problem. Or is Sonic, Palu, Sephiroth, Ike, Pikachu, Lucina, PT, YL, Terry, ROB, etc. consistently losing to Cloud/Pythra/Sparg0 suddenly a "Wi-Fi-only" thing that isn't applied to G&W for some reason?
 
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Rizen

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I think I'm starting to feel bad for Maister at this point. I think Maister needs a :ultpalutena: secondary to deal with a lot of the sword characters.

BTW Armadillo's tier list

Maister's good enough he can beat swordies who aren't top level but I agree. Having a secondary is smart for anyone. It helps with bad MUs but also gives you valuable mixups to your playstyle.

The Box: Lunchbox +

1st: Sparg0 :ultpyra::ultcloud:
2nd: Maister:ultgnw:
3rd: BestNess:ultness: :ultsteve:(DQ'd in Losers Finals)
4th: Yez:ultike:
5th: Ned :ultsephiroth::ultpokemontrainer:
5th :SKITTLES!!:ultyounglink:
7th: Chag:ultpalutena:
7th: 9superpie :ultwiifittrainer::ultwario:
9th: Skyjay :ultincineroar:
9th: Lui$ :ultpalutena:
9th: Riddles :ult_terry:
9th: Kiyarash :ultluigi:
13th: Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
13th: Enaromnía:ultrobin:
13th: Mr. E :ultlucina:
13th: WaKa:ultluigi:

During an interview Hungrybox took with him, Sparg0 has mentioned thinking about prioritizing Aegis offline due to being stronger characters.

Data for bracket it's quite interesting and has a few upsets:https://smash.gg/tournament/the-box-lunchbox/event/ultimate-singles/brackets/934466/1487102
It's nice to see :ultyounglink: place for a change. I think we can and have ruled out that the buffs boosted him into top tier by now. I do think he suffers from not having a top 20 player repping him and could do better if one picked him up.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Messages
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Aaaannnddd there goes Sparg0 to prove me wrong after a week or two lol.

I didn’t watch all of his sets (mostly his Maister set), but the most interesting thing to me about his Pythra is that he doesn’t even really go for the duo’s more complicated tech, meticulous swapping, or even use Mythra most of the time. It could definitely be a byproduct of Wi-Fi as the redhead arguably shines more there, but for the most part, it is predominantly the Pyra show, only ever using Mythra to hurl the opponent offstage or to use her better air speed to get out of juggles.

His Pyra doesn’t even go for the more intricate parts of her kit like Blazing End footstools or platform extensions like MKLeo does. In fact, a lot of his gameplay mostly consists of going hard in his aggression when he gets a hit in, especially offstage, and going for really scary 50/50s off of DAir spikes and platform tech chases that earn him those 60/50% kills. It reminds of me a lot of how he wields Cloud in terms of the parallels between their aggressive play, sprinkled in with a bit of Ike-esque early kill confirms.

I won’t deny, it’s a really strong performance, and admittedly, it does paint a strong future for them going forward. That said, there’s two factors to keep in mind: First and obvious, these are Wi-Fi performances, and not everything seen here is going to translate to offline 1 to 1. Secondly, this is Sparg0 we’re considering who - to be fairly honest - might as well be the online equivalent of Zackray. This kid’s won tourneys with Cloud, Steve, and Roy for a while now. While these 1st placings are a sign of things to come, it does lose a little impact for me when he's just as capable of doing this well with some like Steve or Cloud, characters people seem to find far worse than the duo.

That said, if Sparg0 is able to do this well WITHOUT doing their crazier, more difficult things, it does worry what he might be able to accomplish offline WITH Mythra’s 40~50% combos, Pyra’s Blazing End footstools, etc.

Since I am on the topic of Sparg0, one more thing I’d like to add is that in the midst of Sparg0 sweeping online tournaments left and right and skewering practically every Wi-Fi Warrior he’s been fighting online, I do find it weird that it’s specifically Maister’s character that’s targeted as having a sword problem. Or is Sonic, Palu, Sephiroth, Ike, Pikachu, Lucina, PT, YL, Terry, ROB, etc. consistently losing to Cloud/Pythra/Sparg0 suddenly a "Wi-Fi-only" thing that isn't applied to G&W for some reason?
Well MKLeo and Sparg0 have had Maisters number for a while and know the G&W MU and counterplay better than any other player right now. I mean when you look at Maisters overall sets W/L ratio from them both. At this point Maister needs a secondary to cover his MKLeo and Sparg0 matchup more than G&W's bad Matchup's
 
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sleepy_Nex

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Nov 25, 2014
Messages
209
Mythra however may end up being buffed with Foresight being better offline and all those crazy tech and combo vids we hsve seen possibly being easier or more viable. Then again Mythra neutral does have some slight cracks in the first seemingly impetrable foundation. Notabally many of her airiels are not quite as safe on shield as the seem, and that can likely be explioted better offline. We also have to take into account edgegauding them is potentially easier offline
My guess would be that Mythra won't get better cuz of offline combos but more because her advantage state will probably be insanely good. Mythra has the framedata, range and speed to easily trap opponents in disadvantage but she is hold back by online making reactions worse. When she can react better offline then a playstyle like voids or mkleo ledgetrapping will be way way more effective with her.

Foresight is another thing. It is a tool that can easily break through projectiles with a simple roll to the opponent but it's harder to react with it online. Mythra will probably be a monster at zonebreaking offline when foresighting projectiles get added to her speed.
 

Thinkaman

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Foresight is another thing. It is a tool that can easily break through projectiles with a simple roll to the opponent but it's harder to react with it online. Mythra will probably be a monster at zonebreaking offline when foresighting projectiles get added to her speed.
Foresight's range is vaguely impressive but still around 5 units. (Nothing more, nothing less.) It will only be relevant in cases where you can get within that range, yet cannot land your preferred starter (u-tilt? d-tilt?) naturally, and are able to dodge (f-roll) the projectile on reaction at that spacing.

That's not a niche case--it can threaten "approach projectiles" that are normally safe, like Thunder Jolt or Mario Fireball. But it applies far less to:
  • Held, quick-release projectiles like Link/Byleth arrow, Zelda armor, Sheik Needles, Sephiroth side-b, Hero menu, or "chargeable orbs."
  • Projectiles used as landing traps and ledge option reads. (Though risky Foresight Air Dodges can sometimes apply, keep in mind the reward here is far less.)
  • Off-stage harassment.
  • Long-range harassment, like Palutena junk.
  • Manipulatables like Link Remote Bomb or DH Can.
  • Z-drop use cases, like Mega Man and PAC-MAN rely on.
  • Downright fast, non-reactable stuff without a read, like Sheik Needles or Village/Isabelle slingshots, including thrown items like Banana or Mechakoopa.
  • Any projectile intended purely to stuff jumps, whether horizontal or say Belmont Axe.
Many projectiles Foresight could be good against, like Samus Missle, just aren't going to be done in grounded neutral at close range against a fast opponent. Others like DH Gunmen, are less relevant to the Mythra matchup to begin with. Then you've got cases like PK Thunder/Freeze or Ptooie that are used in such unusual cases that Foresight is almost never relevant.

But again, it's good for Thunder Jolt, good for Fireball, good for PK Fire, good for Razor Leaf, and amazing for Pikmin Toss and Poison Cloud. It can situationally be great for returning boomerangs, but it's both optimistic that the opponent will cooperate and requires far more precision than f-rolling any of those mentioned projectiles.
 

The_Bookworm

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Messages
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Another thing Mythra in terms of her Foresight (why do we still not have a stock icon for her?), is looking at her dodges themselves.

While her airdodges are indeed better than the average character, frame data-wise and distance-wise, her rolls and spotdodges have some issues.
Note that endlag and intangibility values listed below is assuming it is fresh, although the point still stands for fully stale versions.
  1. Her spotdodge has a total 31 frames (26 to interrupt it). This is the highest duration spotdodge in the game. This number is slightly deceptive, since her actual spotdodge intangibility ends at frame 21 (3 more than the highest intangibility duration in the game), but that only makes it on par with the frame 28 duration spotdodges, which is still the laggiest in the game, and tied with some big bodies (namely Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, Dedede, K. Rool, Ridley).
  2. Her rolls are even worse. Forward roll has a total duration of 35 frames, which is the highest in the entire game. This is one frame higher than Samus' roll. This time, there is no compensation in intangibility duration, with intangibility ending at frame 18 alongside Samus' roll. Back roll is not quite as bad, being one frame faster in duration than Samus' roll (frame 38 vs 39), but it still among the slowest in the game.
  3. Mythra's intangibility on both spotdodges and rolls (and airdodges), starts noticeably later than the other characters, with spotdodge starting at frame 7 (norm is frame 3), forward roll at frame 7 (norm is frame 4), and back roll at frame 8 (norm is frame 5). The only also character with this distinction is Bayonetta, being frames 6-6-7, so one frame sooner across the board.
  4. Similar to Bayonetta, Mythra's Foresight largely compensates for the above point. For spotdodge, Foresight activates on frames 2-6. For forward roll, it is frames 2-6. For back roll, it is frames 2-7. For reference, Bat Within is frames 2-5, 2-5, and 3-6 respectively. This gives Mythra more realistic intangibility frames than the average character, which is good.
  5. However, one notable weakness of the above point is that Foresight fails against grabs. This means that you could grab Mythra at the beginning portion of her spotdodges and rolls, which is pretty much the only area where point 3 about her intangibility starting much sooner than everyone else comes into play. This is definitely more relevant if she existed in SSB4, but it something to note.
Her spotdodge and rolls being slower than everyone else is definitely an intentional design choice to keep Foresight in-check, and make simply throwing them out more risky.
 

sleepy_Nex

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Messages
209
Well combined with her high movement speed 5 units is pretty much enough. It also works on Yoshi egg btw and it will probably also work on boomerangs that are not just coming back because boomerang does have startup lag. Krool crown is another example and it will most probably also be effective on Palu ar when you are approaching. Those are all reactable.

Hydreigonfan01 Hydreigonfan01 Palu goes even with most swordies besides Byleth and Ike who she has a slight win over. She probably loses to Roy and maybe Pythra though so idk if she would be a good secondary for swordies. Best for ike then.
 

Rizen

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I've been practicing my :ultsephiroth: and it's really reinforced my view that he's a strong high tier but also a character of strengths and weaknesses. When you are outplaying the opponent or in advantage, Sephiroth absolutely obliterates. His advantage state is so strong. He can reach very high or far offstage and slash opponents in ways most characters could never dream of. Giga flare (and canceling it) is a very strong ledge trapping tool. He easily has one of the best advantage states in the game. His recovery is excellent too.
Where S really falters is his frame data is so bad; it feels like his treading water. If you can zone opponents with his long reach he's fine but if the opponent slips past his CQC is terrible. His fastest ground move is a f5 jab which is just c****y in both range and frame data. Ftilt is f14. Then his fastest escape aerial is Nair at f9. Dair is a great landing option as it beats almost every upward attack if the opponent is directly below you. Unfortunately it's f19. If S is getting vortexed he's in for a world of hurt. And although he can kill very early, he dies just as early. He's very frail.

I feel like S will do well vs most of the cast but have several rough MUs vs vortex critters like the rats, who are small and hard to hit.
 
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Another thing Mythra in terms of her Foresight (why do we still not have a stock icon for her?), is looking at her dodges themselves.

While her airdodges are indeed better than the average character, frame data-wise and distance-wise, her rolls and spotdodges have some issues.
Note that endlag and intangibility values listed below is assuming it is fresh, although the point still stands for fully stale versions.
  1. Her spotdodge has a total 31 frames (26 to interrupt it). This is the highest duration spotdodge in the game. This number is slightly deceptive, since her actual spotdodge intangibility ends at frame 21 (3 more than the highest intangibility duration in the game), but that only makes it on par with the frame 28 duration spotdodges, which is still the laggiest in the game, and tied with some big bodies (namely Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, Dedede, K. Rool, Ridley).
  2. Her rolls are even worse. Forward roll has a total duration of 35 frames, which is the highest in the entire game. This is one frame higher than Samus' roll. This time, there is no compensation in intangibility duration, with intangibility ending at frame 18 alongside Samus' roll. Back roll is not quite as bad, being one frame faster in duration than Samus' roll (frame 38 vs 39), but it still among the slowest in the game.
  3. Mythra's intangibility on both spotdodges and rolls (and airdodges), starts noticeably later than the other characters, with spotdodge starting at frame 7 (norm is frame 3), forward roll at frame 7 (norm is frame 4), and back roll at frame 8 (norm is frame 5). The only also character with this distinction is Bayonetta, being frames 6-6-7, so one frame sooner across the board.
  4. Similar to Bayonetta, Mythra's Foresight largely compensates for the above point. For spotdodge, Foresight activates on frames 2-6. For forward roll, it is frames 2-6. For back roll, it is frames 2-7. For reference, Bat Within is frames 2-5, 2-5, and 3-6 respectively. This gives Mythra more realistic intangibility frames than the average character, which is good.
  5. However, one notable weakness of the above point is that Foresight fails against grabs. This means that you could grab Mythra at the beginning portion of her spotdodges and rolls, which is pretty much the only area where point 3 about her intangibility starting much sooner than everyone else comes into play. This is definitely more relevant if she existed in SSB4, but it something to note.
Her spotdodge and rolls being slower than everyone else is definitely an intentional design choice to keep Foresight in-check, and make simply throwing them out more risky.
Just to add a niche case; not only does Foresight (and Bat's Within) not trigger when Mythra (and Bayonetta) gets grabbed, but Foresight (and Bat's Within) also do not trigger when hit by Puff's Sing. While Sing triggers counters, Sing does not trigger Foresight or Bat's Within. Granted, the counterplay is to wait it out or attack at the right time, but dodging is riskier.
 

Thinkaman

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Characters in SWT Southwest Qualifier finals tomorrow: (simplified purely to last character used to win)

:ultness::ultpalutena::ultminmin:ultrichter:/:ultrichter::ultzss::ultdiddy::ultolimar:
:ultpalutena::ultmewtwo::ultike::ultwario:/:ultbowserjr::ultsteve::ultsnake::ultjigglypuff:
:ultsnake::ultbayonetta::ultminmin:ultlink:/:ultpalutena::ultgunner::ultryu::ultsteve:
:ultmarth::ultluigi::ultcloud::ultkingdedede:/:ultrob::ultchrom::ultzelda::ultwolf:

Larry also played :ultfalco::ultdk:, and :ultinkling::ultsheik::ultkrool::ultpit::ultcorrin::ultgnw::ulttoonlink: made it to 33rd.

:ultpalutena: continues to be the overall winner--2 in winner's, 1 in loser's, yet 2 more who made it to 33rd. Followup weighted usage ranks would go :ultminmin:ultrichter::ultsteve::ultrob:.

Shoutouts to MegaManLeo's 2232 Gunner beating Void's Sheik. It was surprising how effective the unconventional specials were.
 

StrangeKitten

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Characters in SWT Southwest Qualifier finals tomorrow: (simplified purely to last character used to win)

:ultness::ultpalutena::ultminmin:ultrichter:/:ultrichter::ultzss::ultdiddy::ultolimar:
:ultpalutena::ultmewtwo::ultike::ultwario:/:ultbowserjr::ultsteve::ultsnake::ultjigglypuff:
:ultsnake::ultbayonetta::ultminmin:ultlink:/:ultpalutena::ultgunner::ultryu::ultsteve:
:ultmarth::ultluigi::ultcloud::ultkingdedede:/:ultrob::ultchrom::ultzelda::ultwolf:

Larry also played :ultfalco::ultdk:, and :ultinkling::ultsheik::ultkrool::ultpit::ultcorrin::ultgnw::ulttoonlink: made it to 33rd.

:ultpalutena: continues to be the overall winner--2 in winner's, 1 in loser's, yet 2 more who made it to 33rd. Followup weighted usage ranks would go :ultminmin:ultrichter::ultsteve::ultrob:.

Shoutouts to MegaManLeo's 2232 Gunner beating Void's Sheik. It was surprising how effective the unconventional specials were.
Still very good character variety! Always warms the heart to see so many characters do well
 

SKX31

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Messages
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Sweden
And SWT's Southwest America Top 32 look like this:

WB:
Scend / BestNess :ultness: vs. xXBuntaiFan94000Xx (Midnight) :ultpalutena:
Peckham :ultminmin vs. T3 DOM :ultrichter:
Kreeg :ultchrom: vs. Kiyarash :ultluigi:
Benji :ultcloud: vs. Epic Kalito :ultkingdedede:
Lui$ :ultpalutena: vs. Chewie :ultmewtwo:
Hanayome :ultike: vs. Skitz :ultwario:
MVD :ultsnake: vs. Frawg :ultbayonetta:
MinMain :ultminmin vs. Scion :ultlink:

LB:

Shoe :ultzss: vs. BassMage :ultjigglypuff:
Steamynoodles :ultrichter: vs. Ronnichu :ultsnake:
Shigura :ultchrom: vs. Ignis :ultsteve:
Grayson :ultrob: vs. Lt. Surge :ultryu:
Yonni :ultsteve: vs. ArmyOil :ultolimar:
Nationwide :ultbowserjr: vs. Kuddler :ultdiddy:
M.M.Leo :ultgunner: :ultmegaman: vs. Larry Lurr :ultfalco::ultwolf:
Jumpsteady :ultpalutena: vs. Ven :ultzelda:

Quick note:

VoiD vs. Elegant at Round of 48 Losers was nuts and down to the last wire.

Upsets:

Benji took down Ven.
Shigura took out Varun and sent his WFT to Losers.
MrFlitcher upset LarryLurr and made sure Larry had to go on a Losers run.
Scion sent Elegant to Losers.
Ignis took the Winners set vs. VoiD.

Since Top 6 of the qualifier + Top 2 of LCQ qualify for the NA West Regional, we should expect a lot of turbulence tomorrow.
 
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