Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

SWT: Japan Online Qualifier (210 Entrants)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kuroponzu
3rd: Omuatu
4th: ProtoBanham
5th: Shuton (Shuton and Harasen did a tiebreaker set, in which Shuton 3-0 Harasen)
6th: Harasen
7th: Lea
7th: Gackt
9th: HIDE
9th: showers
9th: Nukoeru
9th: ZAKI
13th: Tsumusuto
13th: Masashi
13th: HERO
13th: Pillow
17th: Dangomushi
17th: Homu
17th: KaPMK
17th: kept
17th: Neo
17th: Rokkon
17th: Shinmai
17th: alice
25th: yuzu
25th: Paseriman
25th: Tea
25th: Suinoko
25th: Kameme
25th: Nietono
25th: Keroguchi
25th: Mao


LCQ

1st: HERO
2nd: Gackt
3rd: alice
4th: Lea
5th: Pillow
5th: Paseriman
7th: Rido
7th: Keroguchi
9th: HIDE
9th: murasat
9th: Shinmai
9th: Masashi
13th: ZAKI
13th: showers
13th: Homu
13th: Tsumusuto


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the overall entrants moving on in the Smash World Tournament:

KEN (1st)
Kuroponzu (2nd)
Omuatu (3rd)
ProtoBanham (4th)
Shuton (5th)
Harasen (6th)
HERO (1st LCQ)
Gackt (2nd LCQ)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis on character usage (noting that this is online):
got quite a bit of mileage as a strong counterpick character against the ICs. Both KEN and Shuton used him to virtually dismantle Harasen in his tracks. Harasen also lost to Kuroponzu's R.O.B., but that is besides the point. It is a super specific use of the character against a rare character (in which I think Japan doesn't really do a good job against), but it is a notable usage regardless.
Japan is often hailed as the land of low tiers, and this tournament continues to prove that. Three characters typically considered low tier (two of which are extremely rare in tournaments) placed very well here, with Harasen's 6th place, ZAKI's 9th place, and Tsumusuto's 13th place, while solo maining them. Definitely a sight to behold.
continues to terrorize Japan, as the 3rd and 4th placers in this tournament both solo mained Min Min (ProtoBanham eventually went Samus against KEN, but he still lost the set). Both Min Min players eventually lost to Kuroponzu's R.O.B. and KEN's Sonic, showing that the matchup against these two characters can be hard for Min Min (at least online), although Shuton's Pyra was almost able to defeat ProtoBanham.

tl:Dr, this tournament was pretty wacky, especially with all the upsets that happened earlier in the tournament, and the counterpicks was super all over the place. Overall, this was a pretty entertaining tournament, and a nice send-off to the online phase of the SWT.

 

[SKX31]

Yes yes, it's all online, but what a good send-off to online this has been. (Better than online deserves!)

Overall, this was a pretty entertaining tournament, and a nice send-off to the online phase of the SWT.

Additional trivia: 3 new characters will (presumably) appear in the Regional stage - , , . This is the first Online qualifier where a main failed to qualify (after 5 consecutive successes), we're up to 43 different characters for the 72 qualified players so far, and now six different characters have 4 players maining them.* Palu has the most with 6 people maining her.

Spoiler: *The six characters in question

Well, the online portion's not over, we have five online qualifiers left:

The East Asia South (Korea + SEA, incl. Hong Kong / Taiwan) online qualifier will be next week, the last one before NA gets to have its four online qualifiers during the month of May, with the four NA online qualifiers feeding into the two NA Regionals (West and East).

While I only know of players like Tanark and Lynzie (and their most notable results during Ultimate are generally 97th at Umeburas, which is far behind the likes of HERO and Gackt) I don't think Korea / SEA will be total pushovers despite them being heavy underdogs in comparision to the Japanese players (to say the least). Who knows, the fact that they've travelled little and only had a couple chances against top-level talent makes me think that there could be some really good players that haven't had any exposure.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

SWT: Japan Online Qualifier (210 Entrants)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kuroponzu
3rd: Omuatu
4th: ProtoBanham
5th: Shuton (Shuton and Harasen did a tiebreaker set, in which Shuton 3-0 Harasen)
6th: Harasen
7th: Lea
7th: Gackt
9th: HIDE
9th: showers
9th: Nukoeru
9th: ZAKI
13th: Tsumusuto
13th: Masashi
13th: HERO
13th: Pillow
17th: Dangomushi
17th: Homu
17th: KaPMK
17th: kept
17th: Neo
17th: Rokkon
17th: Shinmai
17th: alice
25th: yuzu
25th: Paseriman
25th: Tea
25th: Suinoko
25th: Kameme
25th: Nietono
25th: Keroguchi
25th: Mao


LCQ

1st: HERO
2nd: Gackt
3rd: alice
4th: Lea
5th: Pillow
5th: Paseriman
7th: Rido
7th: Keroguchi
9th: HIDE
9th: murasat
9th: Shinmai
9th: Masashi
13th: ZAKI
13th: showers
13th: Homu
13th: Tsumusuto


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the overall entrants moving on in the Smash World Tournament:

KEN (1st)
Kuroponzu (2nd)
Omuatu: (3rd)
ProtoBanham: (4th)
Shuton (5th)
Harasen (6th)
HERO (1st LCQ)
Gackt (2nd LCQ)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis on character usage (noting that this is online):
got quite a bit of mileage as a strong counterpick character against the ICs. Both KEN and Shuton used him to virtually dismantle Harasen in his tracks. Harasen also lost to Kuroponzu's R.O.B., but that is besides the point. It is a super specific use of the character against a rare character (in which I think Japan doesn't really do a good job against), but it is a notable usage regardless.
Japan is often hailed as the land of low tiers, and this tournament continues to prove that. Three characters typically considered low tier (two of which are extremely rare in tournaments) placed very well here, with Harasen's 6th place, ZAKI's 9th place, and Tsumusuto's 13th place, while solo maining them. Definitely a sight to behold.
continues to terrorize Japan, as the 3rd and 4th placers in this tournament both solo mained Min Min (ProtoBanham eventually went Samus against KEN, but he still lost the set). Both Min Min players eventually lost to Kuroponzu's R.O.B. and KEN's Sonic, showing that the matchup against these two characters can be hard for Min Min (at least online), although Shuton's Pyra was almost able to defeat ProtoBanham.

tl:Dr, this tournament was pretty wacky, especially with all the upsets that happened earlier in the tournament, and the counterpicks was super all over the place. Overall, this was a pretty entertaining tournament, and a nice send-off to the online phase of the SWT.

Isnt there like 4 more for America that are left

SWT: Japan Online Qualifier (210 Entrants)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kuroponzu
3rd: Omuatu
4th: ProtoBanham
5th: Shuton (Shuton and Harasen did a tiebreaker set, in which Shuton 3-0 Harasen)
6th: Harasen
7th: Lea
7th: Gackt
9th: HIDE
9th: showers
9th: Nukoeru
9th: ZAKI
13th: Tsumusuto
13th: Masashi
13th: HERO
13th: Pillow
17th: Dangomushi
17th: Homu
17th: KaPMK
17th: kept
17th: Neo
17th: Rokkon
17th: Shinmai
17th: alice
25th: yuzu
25th: Paseriman
25th: Tea
25th: Suinoko
25th: Kameme
25th: Nietono
25th: Keroguchi
25th: Mao


LCQ

1st: HERO
2nd: Gackt
3rd: alice
4th: Lea
5th: Pillow
5th: Paseriman
7th: Rido
7th: Keroguchi
9th: HIDE
9th: murasat
9th: Shinmai
9th: Masashi
13th: ZAKI
13th: showers
13th: Homu
13th: Tsumusuto


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the overall entrants moving on in the Smash World Tournament:

KEN (1st)
Kuroponzu (2nd)
Omuatu: (3rd)
ProtoBanham: (4th)
Shuton (5th)
Harasen (6th)
HERO (1st LCQ)
Gackt (2nd LCQ)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis on character usage (noting that this is online):
got quite a bit of mileage as a strong counterpick character against the ICs. Both KEN and Shuton used him to virtually dismantle Harasen in his tracks. Harasen also lost to Kuroponzu's R.O.B., but that is besides the point. It is a super specific use of the character against a rare character (in which I think Japan doesn't really do a good job against), but it is a notable usage regardless.
Japan is often hailed as the land of low tiers, and this tournament continues to prove that. Three characters typically considered low tier (two of which are extremely rare in tournaments) placed very well here, with Harasen's 6th place, ZAKI's 9th place, and Tsumusuto's 13th place, while solo maining them. Definitely a sight to behold.
continues to terrorize Japan, as the 3rd and 4th placers in this tournament both solo mained Min Min (ProtoBanham eventually went Samus against KEN, but he still lost the set). Both Min Min players eventually lost to Kuroponzu's R.O.B. and KEN's Sonic, showing that the matchup against these two characters can be hard for Min Min (at least online), although Shuton's Pyra was almost able to defeat ProtoBanham.

tl:Dr, this tournament was pretty wacky, especially with all the upsets that happened earlier in the tournament, and the counterpicks was super all over the place. Overall, this was a pretty entertaining tournament, and a nice send-off to the online phase of the SWT.

Isnt there still like 4 more Qualifiers for all of North Amerciaa still left. Also it was a shame that the combination if so few spots for the region combined with some internal confustion deterred a lot of Japans top talent from entering.

I.e Zackray, Alterier, Kome, Choco, Shky, Akkakisu and more

 

[NotLiquid]

ROB is believed by quite a lot of people to be Min Min's toughest MU relative to frequency. There are a number of other MUs she struggles with (as even the best characters in the game are known to have) and perhaps are harder to deal with, but they're generally not subject to as much "hypothetical" power creep to be of as equal of a concern.

The problem isn't so much that ROB's off-stage play and ledge traps are good, they're certainly a factor but even characters like Link are known to enjoy harassing Min Min in disadvantage, so it's not an exclusive privilege it owns. It mostly comes down to neutral. Min Min traditionally enjoys going up against zoners since her entire gimmick is making characters uncomfortable at a range that most zoners want to be in, but ROB's particular brand of projectile play combined with its meaty hitboxes means it predominantly flexes an aggressive mid-range zoning role in service of rushing down. Its two projectile types wouldn't do much to deter Min Min in isolation; Gyro is one of many item projectiles that Min Min has the privilege of just swatting away with regular attacks, and a fully charged laser is something Min Min can reflect, but in unison it's difficult to contend with both since if you want to do an aggressive option, you have to commit with something that leaves you open. That's also not getting into the fact that ROB will probably not even opt for fully charged lasers to begin with since its weaker lasers are just way better in neutral. Combine all of that with what's widely considered one of the best NAirs in the game, a fantastic grab game, and some deadly pokes, and you're left with a rare matchup where Min Min isn't the mood maker of the game since she lacks the same quantity of options and gets hurt more from mistakes, while ROB can just throw projectiles your way and jump in on you.

It's far from a hopeless match up though, obviously. ROB's approach options are still not the absolute best because it's still reliant on its projectiles, which when stacked up to other zoner brethren, are comparatively finite, and leave notable gaps. ROB is also not the safest of landers, so there's an ample amount of room to punish it via OoS up smashes and parries. It's also got a very big hurtbox, which means it's easier to land Min Min's combos, juggles and Ramram multihits, and despite having one of the biggest survivability rates among the cast, ROB's recovery is relatively slow, which means there should be a lot of room to optimize Min Min's capacity to edgeguard it. Also, much like Pac-Man and Diddy Kong, you can probably stress some gimmicky bullying play if you get a hold of ROB's Gyro and deny it from spawning a new one, though I'm not willing to prematurely speculate on its optimal rewards in practice.

Overall, it's a doable MU, but a troublesome one since Min Min doesn't really get the chance to use her buttons with impunity. You can't fit a square peg into a hole, so she's largely encouraged to wait out ROB's actions in order to do real damage. For Min Min, this may be a MU that gets nerfed by online due to the difficulty to play on reaction and especially because I get the impression that ROB in particular abhors parries, but I'd still overall lean to her having a lot of trouble with the MU regardless of the silver linings, since at the end of the day, she still isn't the one who's controlling the pace.

 

[Game7a1]

Additional trivia: 3 new characters will (presumably) appear in the Regional stage - , , . This is the first Online qualifier where a main failed to qualify (after 5 consecutive successes), we're up to 43 different characters for the 72 qualified players so far, and now six different characters have 4 players maining them.* Palu has the most with 6 people maining her.

Spoiler: *The six characters in question

If we were to count secondaries that won games in the qualifiers, then the number of characters jump to 52.

Well, I might have miscounted one or two characters, but Ness ends up becoming the most popular pick of the qualified. Interestingly, the top 5 most used characters in the PGStats analysis of Online brackets - Ness, ROB, Snake, Min Min, and Palutena - also happen to be among the top 5 characters used. Granted, we haven't gone through the USA and East Asia qualifiers, so that can all change, but I imagine there will only be position shifts among the top 5 rather than new characters.

 

[Thinkaman]

Is it fair to say that Min Min is the "the most polarized relevant character"? (Or "the most relevant polarized character"? You know what I'm getting at.)

Belmonts are much more niche. Otherwise, who is even in the running? G&W?

Really curious about Min Min matchups today. If Min Min continues to perform and grows in player base, will we see a rise of pocket ???

 

[Tri Knight]

Is it fair to say that Min Min is the "the most polarized relevant character"? (Or "the most relevant polarized character"? You know what I'm getting at.)

Belmonts are much more niche. Otherwise, who is even in the running? G&W?

Really curious about Min Min matchups today. If Min Min continues to perform and grows in player base, will we see a rise of pocket ???

I'd say it's a toss up between her and Shulk as far as polarizing opinions, at least from what I've gathered. Then again, theres actually a few top or borderline top tiers that have polarizing opinions as well.

I had a feeling Sheik was severely underrated.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I feel a bit bad for Lea. 7th in the main even when he needed 6th to qualify, 4th in LCQ when he needed second. His Sephiroth looks fairly solid, might be a top 5 Sephiroth at this point? One could make a case for top 3 although I wonder if Ned's Sephiroth might be better? It's hard to say at this point anyway, and there's a lack of solo main Sephiroth players right now (which makes sense, online era, and Sephiroth is hurt by online, so players might be tempted to keep their old main around for some online gameplay).

I wonder if more people will switch to Sephiroth once offline comes back? Does seem plausible, but by then we likely have one or maybe even two more DLC to deal with, potentially new top tiers (or maybe low/mid tiers, or high tiers, who knows?).

Neo the Corrin main getting 17th is interesting since they're not very notable prior to this? All I could find is that they lost a set at Tamisuma #218 and Tamisuma #229, not making top 16 at either tournaments. Now they got #17 at one of the more stacked tournaments, but then either didn't compete or didn't make top 16 for the LCQ (I can't find a bracket on SmashGG right now so hard to verify). Seems Ly DQ so Corrin's representation was not as good as Corrin mains would have hoped. Neo beating Paseriman is quite notable, although Fox is commonly believed to be significantly worse online. I watched some of the games between Shuton and Neo and they were not that close, Neo took a game since Shuton SD'd around 10% when Neo was above 100%... Shuton won 3-1 solidly.

I don't think this tournament is what Corrin mains hoped for, in the end. Ly's DQ is quite unfortunate, I don't think Corrin's competitive future looks very bright at all, right now it seems like Corrin mains mostly have to hope that Ly will show up, and even then Ly is not exactly top 30 Japan or anything right now.

 

[Thinkaman]

Irresponsible data juxtaposition; different levels of play, pre- and post-pandemic, offline and online... why would I do such a thing???

I wanted to put side-by-side our diverging perspectives. As you can see, the correlation trend is well, certainly not flat, but not exactly 1:1. Part of this is due to unavoidable outliers of Sheik and FP2 DLC (whose numbers don't agree with the way I slapped this together), but only a little.

In theory, everyone above the trendline either outperforms their usage at top level play or just plays way better offline, and everyone below underperforms at top level or benefits from online.

Keep in mind that a lot of games in both datasets are behind on patches, so Pichu, Byleth, recent nerfs, ect. ect.

I'm repeating myself in warning that this is not "good" data analysis, just a sneak peek into the world as it begins to be reborn.

Edit: Oh, and the image I posted has 20% OrionRank Phase 3 "momentum" added, not 25% as listed. Did I mention this is a sloppy sneak peek?

 

[Rizen]

I feel a bit bad for Lea. 7th in the main even when he needed 6th to qualify, 4th in LCQ when he needed second. His Sephiroth looks fairly solid, might be a top 5 Sephiroth at this point? One could make a case for top 3 although I wonder if Ned's Sephiroth might be better? It's hard to say at this point anyway, and there's a lack of solo main Sephiroth players right now (which makes sense, online era, and Sephiroth is hurt by online, so players might be tempted to keep their old main around for some online gameplay).

I wonder if more people will switch to Sephiroth once offline comes back? Does seem plausible, but by then we likely have one or maybe even two more DLC to deal with, potentially new top tiers (or maybe low/mid tiers, or high tiers, who knows?).

Neo the Corrin main getting 17th is interesting since they're not very notable prior to this? All I could find is that they lost a set at Tamisuma #218 and Tamisuma #229, not making top 16 at either tournaments. Now they got #17 at one of the more stacked tournaments, but then either didn't compete or didn't make top 16 for the LCQ (I can't find a bracket on SmashGG right now so hard to verify). Seems Ly DQ so Corrin's representation was not as good as Corrin mains would have hoped. Neo beating Paseriman is quite notable, although Fox is commonly believed to be significantly worse online. I watched some of the games between Shuton and Neo and they were not that close, Neo took a game since Shuton SD'd around 10% when Neo was above 100%... Shuton won 3-1 solidly.

I don't think this tournament is what Corrin mains hoped for, in the end. Ly's DQ is quite unfortunate, I don't think Corrin's competitive future looks very bright at all, right now it seems like Corrin mains mostly have to hope that Ly will show up, and even then Ly is not exactly top 30 Japan or anything right now.

I feel sorry for Tea; he won the last tournament but got upset in this one. He's better than many of the players who made it.

I know what you mean about . Frankly I think inclusion is hurting a lot of similar swordsmen as they just end up being a better pick. Corrin lost Cosmos.
Similarly 's been cast adrift in a sea of better DLC swordsmen like Sephiroth and Ra and buffed characters like Cloud climbing over him. Link was hurt when Hero came out as a more explosive alternative that players like Salem dropped him for. He hasn't gotten any meaningful buffs for some reason. The meta's leaving him behind.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Lots about the Japan sectiom of the qualifers seems pretty sus in general. Only 8 spots for such a huge region with tons of is the reason why many of Japans top talent. I.e Zackray, Kome, Kuro Choco , Altirier and likely more did not sign up.

I also heard that this qualifier demanded a specific online setup that was hard to understand which was supposedly why Akakiksu ended up DQ'ing

 

[Tri Knight]

Similarly 's been cast adrift in a sea of better DLC swordsmen like Sephiroth and Ra and buffed characters like Cloud climbing over him. Link was hurt when Hero came out as a more explosive alternative that players like Salem dropped him for. He hasn't gotten any meaningful buffs for some reason. The meta's leaving him behind.

It hurts me severely... High Tier, hyped up was a dream come true and I'm just glad I was there for the ride.

That being said, Sakurai fears Link and will never buff him.

 

[Thinkaman]

numbers on the PGStats: (online)

1. 23rd most used in bracket
2. 25th most wins in bracket
3. 25th most used in top 1/8th of bracket
4. 31st most wins in top 1/8th of bracket

For offline history, his OrionStats results ranked #27, #32, #35. The very early 2021 ranking has him actually up a bit, back at #32.

He was also 17th most palyed in previous, broader smash.gg data, and ranked #28 in aggregate tier list opinions by PGR players.

No matter what data you look at, Ultimate Link is above median. Being barely in the top 50% in a metric isn't that impressive, but making the top half in every way of looking at things is indicative.

That said.

I do think:

• Link is always going to have somewhat inflated usage stats due to an unusually loyal base, not unlike Falcon.
• Hero has cut into Link at very high levels play, acting as a flashier, "more Johnny" version of adult Link's "hybrid" archetype.
• Link does underperform his usage (slightly but consistently), and does perform worse (slightly but consistently) at higher levels of play. While other characters exhibit these traits 10x as much as Link does, it's still a dent in his reputation.

I think these intangible variables drag Link down from "objectively above average in every way" to "more or less exactly average."


The only way I would expect Link to get buffs is if his performance-relative-to-usage fell off a cliff, putting him closer to the pre-buff situations of Samus or Falcon. (Or, if you want to get extreme, Ness, Cloud, or the smaller Links)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wow now I kinda feel like a dumbass for not realizing the paralellls between Link and Hero sooner. They are both technically "swordies" bit whose kit mostly revolves around projectile setplay. They can hit like a truck but suffer from lackluster mobility and frame data.

But Hero has the down-b as well as being more flashy and chaotic. While Adult Link is still well, Link.

But thinking about Link's fanbase, anyone remember T from Smash 4 days. Japan Link main that made big waves by placing 3rd at Civil War, got pretty consistent results overall though Smash 4's lifespan.

I wonder what became of him, he seemed to fallen off or disappeared from the competive scene right when Ultimate came out

 

[Frihetsanka]

I wonder what became of him, he seemed to fallen off or disappeared from the competive scene right when Ultimate came out

He did get #15 on the most recent PGR so I wouldn't really say "fallen off". He doesn't seem to have played all that much during the online era though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wow now I kinda feel like a idiot for bot realizinf the paralellls between Link and Hero sooner. They are both technically "swordies" bit whose kit mostly revolves around projectile setplay. They can hit like a truck but suffer from lackluster mobilty and frame data.

But Hero has the down-b as well as being more flashy and chaotic. While Adult Link is still well, Link

Link's big advantages over Hero are fairly mundane, tools like u-smash and fair.

Those are great, but probably not what the person deciding between Link and Hero gets excited about.



Also, while I'm flipping through this data, can we take a moment to appreciate how the tightly the balance has targeted top level play?

• If they just balanced based on raw win rates in bracket (the worst, but what lots of people suggest) we'd be nerfing and buffing . The dumb numbers would also suggest nerfing and buffing .
• If they balanced based on all bracket usage (Not even casuals, 100% tournament sets!) we'd be buffing and maybe , while nerfing the likes of and maybe .
• If they balanced based on just the top 1/8th of bracket sets, that's way better but you still have bonkers notions like considering as the worst character and as the 6th best. Characters like (and post-nerf ) would be considered below average and never a candidate for nerfs, while characters like would be seen as just fine, zero point talking about buffs. would be seen as comparable to , while would be considered top 10.

The nerfs we've had have been exclusively to characters with PGR-level placing by multiple players. Meanwhile, every character in the bottom half of 2019 OrionRank got a set of buffs except for and DLC. If you include consistency fixes on Luigi and Link, it's the entire 2/3rds the cast.

I'm still waiting on Ganon, Mac is due another pass, I think Duck Hunt is falling off, and the benefits to are stubbornly not showing effect. But man, I'd kill to have this in any other game I play. In most, I've given up on top-level competitive play being a target of interest at all.

 

[SKX31]

Lots about the Japan sectiom of the qualifers seems pretty sus in general. Only 8 spots for such a huge region with tons of is the reason why many of Japans top talent. I.e Zackray, Kome, Kuro Choco , Altirier and likely more did not sign up.

I also heard that this qualifier demanded a specific online setup that was hard to understand which was supposedly why Akakiksu ended up DQ'ing

I suspect the reason doesn't have to do with Japan directly, but instead the situation with Korea / SEA - bear with me:

They evidently did find someone to host a Regional for both South America and Oceania, regions that are also outside the typical radar. Korea / SEA is in a similar position as those two... but Korea / SEA are also home to some of the harshest COVID restrictions on the planet due to the region having dealt with similar epidemics in recent years. Vietnam was particularily harsh and disallowed international travel last Autumm (I believe this has since been lifted, but still), something which prevented Vietnamese LoL teams from going to that game's World Championship in China. That alone creates a lot of uncertainty whether a a TO in East Asia (outside Japan) could host a Regional and be sure that said Regional would even happen.

Now I'm spitballing and speculating as a total outsider, but I wouldn't be surprised if SWT effectively decided that having the East Asia players travel to Japan would be much preferable over the risk of having an entire region's Regional be cancelled. Sure, Korea / SEA is not a major region, but it's evidently an active one - and leaving them out completely would not be good either.

Had this been a non-pandemic year, chances are pretty good that Japan might've hosted its own Regional and Korea / SEA would've gotten its own.

Link's big advantages over Hero are fairly mundane, tools like u-smash and fair.

Those are great, but probably not what the person deciding between Link and Hero gets excited about.



Also, while I'm flipping through this data, can we take a moment to appreciate how the tightly the balance has targeted top level play?

• If they just balanced based on raw win rates in bracket (the worst, but what lots of people suggest) we'd be nerfing and buffing . The dumb numbers would also suggest nerfing and buffing .
• If they balanced based on all bracket usage (Not even casuals, 100% tournament sets!) we'd be buffing and maybe , while nerfing the likes of and maybe .
• If they balanced based on just the top 1/8th of bracket sets, that's way better but you still have bonkers notions like considering as the worst character and as the 6th best. Characters like (and post-nerf ) would be considered below average and never a candidate for nerfs, while characters like would be seen as just fine, zero point talking about buffs. would be seen as comparable to , while would be considered top 10.

The nerfs we've had have been exclusively to characters with PGR-level placing by multiple players. Meanwhile, every character in the bottom half of 2019 OrionRank got a set of buffs except for and DLC. If you include consistency fixes on Luigi and Link, it's the entire 2/3rds the cast.

I'm still waiting on Ganon, Mac is due another pass, I think Duck Hunt is falling off, and the benefits to are stubbornly not showing effect. But man, I'd kill to have this in any other game I play. In most, I've given up on top-level competitive play being a target of interest at all.

Huh. I personally thought that casuals were a bit more focused upon with some changes (I got that impression due to the Skewer change, which was intended to adress griefing in doubles + the Dragon ARM knockback nerf intended to remove the "Scholar's Mate" cheese). It's still good to see that the balance team has been doing an overall solid job. Especially given how delicate Ultimate's meta seems, where the percieved dividing lines between the different tiers are far from as clear cut as it was in previous games.

Also, I kinda would love to see how bonkers would've been if he actually was Top 10 material. Brb gonna write letters to Sakurai and ask for buffs to the One True King.

 

[Thinkaman]

Huh. I personally thought that casuals were a bit more focused upon with some changes (I got that impression due to the Skewer change, which was intended to adress griefing in doubles + the Dragon ARM knockback nerf intended to remove the "Scholar's Mate" cheese).

Oh yeah, specific casual things get their 2 cents. We had the early changes to buries as the biggest example.

Skewer or Isabelle or Diddy infinites being fixed I don't even regard as balance, just abusive, trollish stuff that obviously shouldn't be in the game. Same thing with bugs on non-competitive stages, Spirits, ect.

The Sonic and Ness buffs were clearly targeted at low level players. (Which makes sense as they are the only top-25 characters to ever receive formal buffs besides the Pichu reverts.) Surely no one thinks Ranai and the boys said "Let's buff Ness u-throw to help out Gackt. Oh, and KEN's favorite move, Sonic u-tilt."

The Min Min change I think does affect high level play more than the rest, just because those 0-to-deaths being avoidable still means it forces certain off-stage behaviors, in ways that can still turn a 0% grab into a full stock. But her change was definitely more relevant to lower levels than the other recent nerfs.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Oh yeah, specific casual things get their 2 cents. We had the early changes to buries as the biggest example.

Skewer or Isabelle or Diddy infinites being fixed I don't even regard as balance, just abusive, trollish stuff that obviously shouldn't be in the game. Same thing with bugs on non-competitive stages, Spirits, ect.

The Sonic and Ness buffs were clearly targeted at low level players. (Which makes sense as they are the only top-25 characters to ever receive formal buffs besides the Pichu reverts.) Surely no one thinks Ranai and the boys said "Let's buff Ness u-throw to help out Gackt. Oh, and KEN's favorite move, Sonic u-tilt."

The Min Min change I think does affect high level play more than the rest, just because those 0-to-deaths being avoidable still means it forces certain off-stage behaviors, in ways that can still turn a 0% grab into a full stock. But her change was definitely more relevant to lower levels than the other recent nerfs.

There were also the patches for other intentional things like being able to use special moves from canceling his jab and jumps into his specials and 0-death combos although they are still possible if much harder and specific too pull off

 

[RonNewcomb]

This has been a great weekend with basically the same exact tournament in both Smash and SFV, both in Japan, and now Rose is available for the latter.

Every Gackt match win or lose was

Every match was

Got to see the fabled both win hard, and also lose in consistent ways.

Got to see not-recover on the regular.

Got to see a secondary do pretty much nothing.

And, against all odds, I actually rooted for a .

Boring ol' is a top tier except his stock icon doesn't look enough like a cassette tape.

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, I kinda would love to see how bonkers would've been if he actually was Top 10 material.

DDD was actually one of the characters in BBrawl we were most worried about. Being too good, I mean.

I made Dthrow put every opponent in the ground at a -17 (iirc) disadvantage. Even if you tech, that was... Huge. A very, very generous replacement for his chaingrab.

The other aspect was giving him momentum on down b, exactly what they did for the Smash 4 custom. Except in our case, the aerial force was a huge diagonal that let him recover like Ultimate Link.

These were both unusually radical changes by BBrawl's conservative standards, but the only two changes DDD got. And they made him very, very good.

Ultimate DDD is a very different character. Different dair and bair, Gordo as the new center of his kit, a universe where his awful disadvantage is far more pronounced. He'd need entirely different upgrades to be a top tier this game. But it's a strange, alternate world I'm not entirely unfamiliar with.

 

[Nobie]

Link has a major tool that Hero can't even hope to replicate, and that is friggin' NAIR. It's a move so good, Japanese commentators have a name for it: Link Kick.

They don't say "Mario Kick" or "Fox Kick" for those respective nairs either.

It's safe on shield, has the most ridiculous lingering hitbox, AND combos into imagination. Nothing in Hero's arsenal even comes close.

Granted, as Thinkaman said, it's not like "really good nair!!!" excites players looking to play that sort of character.

 

[Tri Knight]

Link's bomb is also a fantastic pressure and offstage tool. The blast is pretty big, especially when it's coming at you while you're trying to recover.

I agree that he'll more than likely end up just "average" in the end but I think if there were more players like T repping him, he'd be a firm high tier.

But again, I did enjoy the hype surrounding him in the beginning.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Link has a major tool that Hero can't even hope to replicate, and that is friggin' NAIR. It's a move so good, Japanese commentators have a name for it: Link Kick.

They don't say "Mario Kick" or "Fox Kick" for those respective nairs either.

It's safe on shield, has the most ridiculous lingering hitbox, AND combos into imagination. Nothing in Hero's arsenal even comes close.

Granted, as Thinkaman said, it's not like "really good nair!!!" excites players looking to play that sort of character.

I also think Link simply has better non-projectile buttons than Hero overall, with a lot of them being even faster than Hero's despite also having almost double the range of Hero's buttons. The projectiles (and in the case for Hero, the buffs) and the "excitement" factor is what sets them apart.

Similarly 's been cast adrift in a sea of better DLC swordsmen like Sephiroth and Ra and buffed characters like Cloud climbing over him. Link was hurt when Hero came out as a more explosive alternative that players like Salem dropped him for. He hasn't gotten any meaningful buffs for some reason. The meta's leaving him behind.

Salem dropped him for Snake first, but your point still stands.

I do have to say that Link has kinda get thrown in the way-side in the eyes of other players, outside of his (very numerous!) dedicated playerbase, especially recently. There is all the intimidating bomb juggling stuff and the sluggish buttons overall. There is also straight up more exciting/better swordie options in the eyes of the average player, like Chroy, Cloud and Young Link (both got buffed at one point), and the introduction of Sephiroth and the Aegis.

There is thankfully no denying that the character is very good, and most top players agree so.

But again, I did enjoy the hype surrounding him in the beginning.

I do remember all the Link hype at the beginning. He was briefly considered top tier at the start of the game, but then Salem dropped him for Snake and he kinda just fell off to being simply high tier, almost to mid tier at one point but T eventually proved people wrong.

 

[Tri Knight]

I think it's mainly the bombs that sway people away from Link. They're pretty daunting to make use of at first glance. Not even T really prioritizes them.

I wonder how Link would be had he kept his normal bombs. He was able to somewhat combo them in Wii U even with his awful jump squat. I'd imagine he'd be much more deadly with them in Ultimate.

Rizen isn't that one of the main reasons you switched over to Young Link?

 

[Rizen]

I think it's mainly the bombs that sway people away from Link. They're pretty daunting to make use of at first glance. Not even T really prioritizes them.

I wonder how Link would be had he kept his normal bombs. He was able to somewhat combo them in Wii U even with his awful jump squat. I'd imagine he'd be much more deadly with them in Ultimate.

Rizen isn't that one of the main reasons you switched over to Young Link?

's bombs were easily one of the best moves in SSB4. A better character could have been broken with them. They comboed into kill moves thrown both down and forward but what made bombs so good was they would beat out other moves. Link had a f6 item throw iirc; if he threw a bomb and it hit the opponent not only would he not get hurt, it would interrupt the opponent with a combo starter. Link holding a bomb was much more dangerous than him not. It also worked as an OoS. The bombs had a hurtbox and therefor would stop any projectile, no matter how powerful. You could z bomb plant a bomb on stage and charge an arrow behind it vs Samus with her full charge shot coming. If she fired it on the ground the bomb would shield Link then the arrow would hit her. Bombs stop CS, aura spheres etc. Bombs were so freaking good in disadvantage. Paired with his 90% increased speed FF and 6f landing lag Nair, Link's landing game was amazing.

It's important to note that 's bombs and items in general were nerfed pretty hard moving to Ultimate. As a universal change any standard attack now catches items when before it was just DA and aerials. I've been hit by Wolf's Ftilt as he caught my bomb. YL's bombs get knocked back by hitboxes rather than exploding. So his bombs can't be used to interrupt attackers. This is a huge nerf. Now if Samus charge shots and YL throws his bomb forward the CS will knock it away and YL will be hit. All YL's projectiles lose to hitboxes; remember that if you're fighting him. I've had Yoshi Nair strait through my boomerang and hit me with the late hit.

I do prefer ssb4 bombs to 's bombs but that's not to say ultimate bombs are a bad move. Link can't really use bombs as a CQC tool like he used to because the explosions will always hurt him too but he can combo Zdrops into landing aerials. Ultimate bombs are not as good for covering landings either. Link's very vulnerable to being juggled by big disjointed Uairs. But they are great recoveries and amazing in advantage. Link has some of the best intercepting tools in the game. You can also C4 them and throw an opponent into one then detonate it.

I still use Link as a secondary but YL's overall the best Link imo. Link got a handful of both buffs and nerfs moving into Ultimate. His sword's bigger but with worse frame data. He lost Zair and tether recoveries, which were really good, but gained a f6 grab rather than an f12 tether grab. He also lost Dthrow>Uair as a kill conform iirc.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Are you guys just going to ignore Sillintor placing 5th at swt europe when talking about link right now? He is a link that uses bomb alot. You can watch some of his streamed matches from swt or go to his youtube channel. He does montage videos alot but also has stuff like bomb recovery tutorials. In the early Meta he consistently placed in the top8 in every bigger german tourney he went to but then started to concentrate more on his youtube and twitch. He plans to attend stuff near him again post corona though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

DDD was actually one of the characters in BBrawl we were most worried about. Being too good, I mean.

I made Dthrow put every opponent in the ground at a -17 (iirc) disadvantage. Even if you tech, that was... Huge. A very, very generous replacement for his chaingrab.

The other aspect was giving him momentum on down b, exactly what they did for the Smash 4 custom. Except in our case, the aerial force was a huge diagonal that let him recover like Ultimate Link.

These were both unusually radical changes by BBrawl's conservative standards, but the only two changes DDD got. And they made him very, very good.

Ultimate DDD is a very different character. Different dair and bair, Gordo as the new center of his kit, a universe where his awful disadvantage is far more pronounced. He'd need entirely different upgrades to be a top tier this game. But it's a strange, alternate world I'm not entirely unfamiliar with.

Ah, I remember .
I know you are talking about the Balanced Brawl mod, but I have cannot resist to reminisce about how absolutely nutty Brawl Dedede was.

• Down throw chaingrabs that shut down a vast majority of the cast.
• The longest non-tether grab range in the game, backing up the previous point.
• The back air of the gods.
• The up tilt of the gods.
• A forward tilt that covered almost half of Smashville.
• Waddle Dee Toss, a move that can summon easy to use meat-shields. If RNG is on your side, a non-reflectable and strong Gordo can be summoned.
• A spotdodge that put him so far in the Z-axis, that spamming it gives the opponent only 2 frames to punish him.
• One of the best set of sound effects in the entire game.

One of the best superheavies in the entire series.
I wonder how the character would be like if he got directly transferred over to SSB4 & Ultimate (+ applying universal mechanics/changes like Ultimate's 3 frame jumpsquat).

As for , his disadvantage is honestly not too much different from his Brawl iteration.
His offstage disadvantage was notably weaker in Brawl, due to his up B having some issues grabbing the ledge + ledge-hogging being a thing.
His disadvantage in terms of landing is much worse, however, due to his new dair being terrible for landings and directional airdodges adding on this nuisance in landing (although the latter point applies to pretty much everyone else).

The main thing that sets a beast like vs , outside of the obviously broken chaingrabs, is the fact that a lot of his best moves got heavily nerfed or changed into entirely different (and inferior) moves.

Even his best changes are a mix bag:

• New down tilt is one frame faster, and has more range thanks to the larger hitboxes and him moving forward. However, the moving forward aspect and additional endlag hurts its spacing potential, while it launches at a higher angle, hurting its KO potential at higher percents at the ledge (Ultimate patches lowered this angle, but it is still not quite at Brawl's levels). SSB4 Dedede also had the blindspot inside of him, but that got indirectly fixed in Ultimate thanks to the jostle mechanics.
• New forward air has less startup and has a bigger hitbox, making it a snappier option to use in air-to-air interactions. However, it has more endlag and it no longer autocancels in a short hop.
• Gordo Throw is a stronger tool for traps and edgeguards, while the damage potential is larger. It is also an overall stronger projectile, both damage and knocback-wise, especially when the old side B has RNG involved. That being said, it is a projectile that can be reflected back by a move that deals 2%+, but combined with its shorter duration and the fact that only one can be out at a time, gives it much less staying power. Losing Waddle Dee Toss noticeably hurts his anti-camping capabilities, something he really needs.
• Jet Hammer got buffed... twice.... but it is still Jet Hammer.

His frame data is also poor overall in Brawl as well, but he at least has quick options like bair, options to ward off pressure like his huge, invincible up tilt and strong spotdodge, anti-camping abilities with Waddle Dee Toss, and potent long range pokes like forward tilt. He doesn't have a lot of these fringe options anymore, and is stuck on much slower, sometimes less versatile alternatives.

This fundamentally changes how he plays for the worst. There is no concrete fix for this either, because entire moves that would help alleviate these issues no longer exist. His playstyle now revolves Gordo Toss, a good projectile for sure (especially in Ultimate), but it is not suited for camping. His playstyle, as a matter of fact, now revolves around that move so much, that characters who can outmaneuver his traps or camp him out from doing anything long distanced, likely easily wins the matchup (an exceptionally true statement with SSB4 Dedede).

I too also don't see how they can theoretically change him to be a top 10 character. If Ultimate Bowser, in his current state, is no where near top 10, I don't see how it is possible for Dedede to get anywhere close. The only thing I can think of is if the character got a complete frame data overhaul, and not just by a few numbers, but by a huge amount of numbers on almost all of his moves, but even then I don't know if that is enough.

Hope you guys like Brawl Dedede (I don't think anyone liked fighting against him lol), because he seems to be the closest we are going to get to King Dedede being top 10 (11th-12th on the tier list is so close, but no cigar).

I low-key like that Jet Hammer change in Balanced Brawl though. Sounds... exciting to say the least, and definitely puts "Jet" in Jet Hammer.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Wadi just uploaded his M2 MU chart:

Spoiler: Complete MU Chart

IMO, seems like a chart for a High to Low-High character.

How is this a high tier match up chart, exactly?

According to this, he beats Luigi, Toon Link, Olimar, Duck Hunt, Captain Falcon and I guess Pichu and Zelda? While those are definitely good match ups to win, a lot of them are more niche characters or have volatile match up charts to begin with anyway. Peach is a really good match up to win at least.

Then you look at his losing match ups. Mario, Chroy, Palutena, Lucina, Fox, Mario, Wolf, Min Min, Pokemon Trainer, Zero Suit, ect...the match ups he wins according to this chart don't outweigh all of this. A lot of this boils down to Mewtwo's poor disadvantage options - his double jump is very committal and without that or a fast button, he doesn't have a lot of freedom in how he escapes strings or high pressure juggles. A lot of Ultimate top tiers have explosive advantage states and can easily frame trap his air dodges, forcing him to use riskier disadvantage options and his own advantage and neutral - while both very strong - just struggle to keep up.

Dare I say this is the match up chart of a low tier character, or a mid tier if you're being optimistic. That is if we treat this chart as absolute though - I'd argue Mewtwo does okay against Lucina for instance, but that's just me.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think it's mainly the bombs that sway people away from Link. They're pretty daunting to make use of at first glance. Not even T really prioritizes them.

I wonder how Link would be had he kept his normal bombs. He was able to somewhat combo them in Wii U even with his awful jump squat. I'd imagine he'd be much more deadly with them in Ultimate.

Rizen isn't that one of the main reasons you switched over to Young Link?

Link would just draw more unfavourable comparisons to his younger ancestors if he had old bombs, who do everything he'd want to do with them better by virtue of higher mobility making comboing off them easier.

 

[Tri Knight]

Link would just draw more unfavourable comparisons to his younger ancestors if he had old bombs, who do everything he'd want to do with them better by virtue of higher mobility making comboing off them easier.

Remember, was able to combo off of his bombs in Smash 4 despite his low mobility, which was actually worse than mostly due to his abysmal 7-frame jump squat.

An interesting bit about and his bombs was that he had nearly non existent endlag after dash throwing his bomb, allowing him to react almost instantly following the throw while potentially covering him from other projectiles and hitboxes due to the armor it had, as Rizen had previously mentioned. Bomb sliding was a huge tech that increased his ground mobility while wailing out bombs at the opponent.

's ability as a Zoner actually took a dive with the replacement to remote bombs. While boomerang is better at least, he cant put out the constant hitboxes he could in the past, turning him into an on-average slower swordsman with light zoner and trapper capabilities overall.
Give him bombs and he'd be a major threat. I'm sure of it.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Remember, was able to combo off of his bombs in Smash 4 despite his low mobility, which was actually worse than mostly due to his abysmal 7-frame jump squat.

An interesting bit about and his bombs was that he had nearly non existent endlag after dash throwing his bomb, allowing him to react almost instantly following the throw while potentially covering him from other projectiles and hitboxes due to the armor it had, as Rizen had previously mentioned. Bomb sliding was a huge tech that increased his ground mobility while wailing out bombs at the opponent.

's ability as a Zoner actually took a dive with the replacement to remote bombs. While boomerang is better at least, he cant put out the constant hitboxes he could in the past, turning him into an on-average slower swordsman with light zoner and trapper capabilities overall.
Give him bombs and he'd be a major threat. I'm sure of it.

I mained but dropped day 0, but still think his changes are healthier for the game despite not being my cup of mile-long hookshot tea. Having 3 characters with that same moveset would be kinda rough, and if you're gonna retool someone's whole gameplan, then the one who just had a crazy popular installment of his source game seems like a good choice. I'm fine with the changed bombs and the tetherless just for variety's sake.

Not to invoke the Shades Of Grey meme, but I want the real Link: down-B is his spell menu from the 2nd 8-bit game, complete with a f1 d-air that pogoes and a high shield built into his f-tilt. Then Erdrick comes and steals most of it. Grr..

Competitively I think big Link is about as fine as a competition character can be. Healthy playerbase, not crap-tier but also not bandwagon tier, unique playstyle, and a few outstanding players making waves. As opposed to a top-10 PGR player making more waves with your character for using them as a secondary for one tourney, outshining all the dedicated mains at once.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Updated Aegis MU Chart pic.twitter.com/xSI9oDPXTG

— Cloudy ☁️ (@Cloudyos_) April 20, 2021

Cloudy's Pyra/Mythra matchup chart.

 

[Djmarcus44]

This video by Gaegel provides a lot of context about the PGstats. The links in the video have the article and the data that shows the wins and losses for every character. He incorrectly uses top 8 instead of the top 12.5% of the bracket, but that makes the sample size look even smaller.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Due to another article that gives the peak placements for every character, I have a better understanding on why Gunner's win rate is low. Since the peak placement data didn't show a top 5 placement for Gunner, PGStats didn't use a lot of the tournaments with notable Gunner placements. The data doesn't include the SWT win by Capitancito or the GG event where he got 5th and Atmosphere got 9th. I am not looking to invalidate the data, but it would be nice to know what tournaments they used.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Updated Aegis MU Chart pic.twitter.com/xSI9oDPXTG

— Cloudy ☁️ (@Cloudyos_) April 20, 2021

Cloudy's Pyra/Mythra matchup chart.

Hmm id say that is a losing MU for from what. have seen so far. It may be onlune but every Min Min vs Pythra match I ended woth Min Min winning pretty dominatly . Might end up being one two. They are both characters than can match both Ageis at range and harass them very well offstage. All they need to hit them with f-smash/dragon laser ir f-tilt/fair schintilla when they are trying to recover and there likely going to be in trouble.

I mean Nairo's stream vs Cosmos we saw Nairo land a sucessful counter offstage agaisnt Cosmos and take stocks like at 60%

 

[Rizen]

Updated Aegis MU Chart pic.twitter.com/xSI9oDPXTG

— Cloudy ☁️ (@Cloudyos_) April 20, 2021

Cloudy's Pyra/Mythra matchup chart.

1 losing MU and 6 evens. This character's buster and I don't think anyone is using them to their full potential yet. IMO the way to play Pyra is like Shulk's smash art and switch to her for advantage/killing (as opposed to only at high %s).

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm not convinced Pyra/Mythra is quite that good just yet, they do seem to have some flaws and Mythra's neutral might not be as good as I initially thought. They're probably top tier but I'm not so sure that they're top 5.

Ned made a Sephiroth MU chart, it seems overall fairly reasonable to me:

Twitch VOD (that will be deleted in 2 months because Twitch): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/993448703?t=2h59m20s

All of the winning seem plausible (although some of them could be Even, and it's possible that Pyra/Mythra is slightly losing, I'm not sure yet). Some of the Even could be winning or losing (Joker is probably Slightly losing, Byleth probably Slightly winning, for instance). Some of the losing could be Even (Pichu and Sonic most notably).

 

[Nah]

1 losing MU and 6 evens. This character's buster and I don't think anyone is using them to their full potential yet. IMO the way to play Pyra is like Shulk's smash art and switch to her for advantage/killing (as opposed to only at high %s).

Something to keep in mind is that there's like 20+ characters that are in a "need more exp/I don't know" category. And that's before getting to how some characters could be argued to be in a different spot than they are.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Since this MU chart has 54 characters ranked so far - which is the same number of characters Abadango had ranked for his last SSB4 MU chart - I decided to do a little comparisons for the fun of it:

Cloudy's MU chart has:

• 47 characters as winning
• 6 characters as even
• 1 character as losing

Conversely, Abadango's MU chart has:

• 50 characters as winning
• 3 characters as even
• 1 character as losing

So if we decide to take both as absolute truths, this means that Pythra is effectively 3 MUs away from becoming the next Bayonetta. That - to be frank - is just absurd to me.


Like, I don't doubt that the ratios might change for the worse as Cloudy adds more characters to each rank and I get the definition of "winning" obviously varies in intensity between MU charts, but just taking this at face-value makes Sonic mains look pessimistic about their MU charts (and it even has the mandatory "lose against Pikachu as your only losing MU" shtick). To be clear, I'm not denying that they're high or even top tier. But so far, not a single performance from any top level player - even MKLeo or VoiD - has convinced me they're remotely close to being as meta-warping as Smash 4's best of the best, and it's not just because they're unrefined with them either.


Even at a first glance, there are some major red flags to me like 's placements, and possibly even more than that (dare I say, maybe even does alright against them).

 

[Tri Knight]

Its like he looked at other tier lists to see who's hot right now, made a couple of them "even" and just basically said Aegis are top of Top Tier in picture format. Pika's your only trouble? No offense to him, but the chart feels low effort to me. I understand the BaeBlades are very powerful but I can see a few characters in the winning section right off the bat that could be debatable.