Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Since this MU chart has 54 characters ranked so far - which is the same number of characters Abadango had ranked for his last SSB4 MU chart - I decided to do a little comparisons for the fun of it:

Cloudy's MU chart has:

• 47 characters as winning
• 6 characters as even
• 1 character as losing

Conversely, Abadango's MU chart has:

• 50 characters as winning
• 3 characters as even
• 1 character as losing

So if we decide to take both as absolute truths, this means that Pythra is effectively 3 MUs away from becoming the next Bayonetta. That - to be frank - is just absurd to me.


Like, I don't doubt that the ratios might change for the worse as Cloudy adds more characters to each rank and I get the definition of "winning" obviously varies in intensity between MU charts, but just taking this at face-value makes Sonic mains look pessimistic about their MU charts (and it even has the mandatory "lose against Pikachu as your only losing MU" shtick). To be clear, I'm not denying that they're high or even top tier. But so far, not a single performance from any top level player - even MKLeo or VoiD - has convinced me they're even close to being as meta-warping as Smash 4's best of the best, and it's not just because they're unrefined with them either.


Even looking at it right now, there are some major red flags to me like 's placements, and possibly even more than that (dare I say, maybe even does alright against them).

Whenever I see matchup charts, especially ESAM's Pika matchup charts, I feel kinda the same way.
From what I remembered, ESAM only had 3 matchups as losing, and only slight loses. That is a matchup chart that about meets Bayo's typical matchup chart (although definitely not as much as Aba's Bayo matchup chart).

Speaking of which, I feel that the Smash Ultimate community has some of sort of unspoken rule that an electric rat, let it be or , MUST be a top 5 character and/or a losing matchup for a character, no matter what.
After 's nerfs, people suddenly started to shove up to the top 5 in their tier lists, despite being typically ranked under the top 10/15 before the Pichu nerfs.

I guess people think that once an electric rat is no longer top 5, that the other just as easily replaces it?
I think that is a reason why people think so, but I am going to disagree with them HEAVILY.
If that were the case, then every Pichu player would instantly switch to Pikachu and find similar success, but that has not been the case. Not many Pichu players switched to Pika, and the very few that has switched typically don't really find much success. VoiD tried to main him at one point, but didn't find much success. Tachyon tried to main him, and I haven't heard from him from a very long time ever since.

Maybe people are just really annoyed by pancaking and that is really it?
Honestly, I won't be surprised if this is a reason why people think so as well. But it is honestly more of an annoyance thing than anything.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

IMO I think Pyra/Mythra are at best on the same level as post-patch . Certainly not on the same level as , as Bayo had even better combos and Witch Time is more broken than Foresight. I think Pyra/Mythra have more losing matchups than just one, and none of those losing MUs are Pikachu. Foresight ****s on Pika because his best moves in neutral are bair and nair, with those moves being multi-hits which make his aerials way more punishable. It forces Pikachu to play a more campy, defensive playstyle with T-Jolt and Tomahawk grabs. That said, when Pikachu gets the edgeguards on Pyra/Mythra they die early due to their exploitable recovery.

I’d argue Pythra’s losing MUs are Diddy Kong, Min-Min, Sonic and Shulk with Sephiroth being even.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Maybe people are just really annoyed by pancaking and that is really it?

This might non-ironically be a huge factor. Like I see so many mid level players complain about Pikachu, but Pikachu isn't really much of an issue until top level (and even then only a few Pikachu players really get top results). At mid level Pikachu probably isn't even top 10.

IMO I think Pyra/Mythra are at best on the same level as post-patch .

I don't know, post-patch Smash 4 Sheik was probably better than the top characters in Ultimate. All of Smash 4 top 4 were pretty busted, the balancing team seems to try to avoid letting any character get too dominant. Yes, I do believe Smash 4 Sheik was better than Ultimate Joker is.

 

[Rizen]

To be clear, I'm not denying that they're high or even top tier. But so far, not a single performance from any top level player - even MKLeo or VoiD - has convinced me they're remotely close to being as meta-warping as Smash 4's best of the best, and it's not just because they're unrefined with them either.

These are unrealistic expectations. Barely anything has happened yet. You have to give these things time; remember how long it took for Joker to be discovered. But even in this time frame they do have impressive results. MKLeo beat both Maester and Spargo with Mythra to get into grand finals winner's side. He then chose DDD as a twich stream incentive or something and Byleth to fight Spargo in Grands where he lost both sets. MKLeo didn't commit to the new characters. There's a good chance he would have won the tournament if he'd stuck to Mythra. Also Spargo won a Juice Box with Mythra. He switched back to Could for the next tournament. What tournaments have Void or Cosmos even entered? Mythra hasn't been given a fair chance to shine.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

These are unrealistic expectations. Barely anything has happened yet. You have to give these things time; remember how long it took for Joker to be discovered. But even in this time frame they do have impressive results. MKLeo beat both Maester and Spargo with Mythra to get into grand finals winner's side. He then chose DDD as a twich stream incentive or something and Byleth to fight Spargo in Grands where he lost both sets. MKLeo didn't commit to the new characters. There's a good chance he would have won the tournament if he'd stuck to Mythra. Also Spargo won a Juice Box with Mythra. He switched back to Could for the next tournament. What tournaments have Void or Cosmos even entered? Mythra hasn't been given a fair chance to shine.

Also MkLeo just won Frame Perfect Series 5 going entirely solo Pyra/Mythra and Sparg0 won the recent JuiceBox+ with mostly and some .

 

[SKX31]

Whenever I see matchup charts, especially ESAM's Pika matchup charts, I feel kinda the same way.
From what I remembered, ESAM only had 3 matchups as losing, and only slight loses. That is a matchup chart that about meets Bayo's typical matchup chart (although definitely not as much as Aba's Bayo matchup chart).

Speaking of which, I feel that the Smash Ultimate community has some of sort of unspoken rule that an electric rat, let it be or , MUST be a top 5 character and/or a losing matchup for a character, no matter what.
After 's nerfs, people suddenly started to shove up to the top 5 in their tier lists, despite being typically ranked under the top 10/15 before the Pichu nerfs.

I guess people think that once an electric rat is no longer top 5, that the other just as easily replaces it?
I think that is a reason why people think so, but I am going to disagree with them HEAVILY.
If that were the case, then every Pichu player would instantly switch to Pikachu and find similar success, but that has not been the case. Not many Pichu players switched to Pika, and the very few that has switched typically don't really find much success. VoiD tried to main him at one point, but didn't find much success. Tachyon tried to main him, and I haven't heard from him from a very long time ever since.

Maybe people are just really annoyed by pancaking and that is really it?
Honestly, I won't be surprised if this is a reason why people think so as well. But it is honestly more of an annoyance thing than anything.

I kinda get the impression that it ties into ESAM's particular playstyle - he is extremely precise with his buttons (to a greater extent than most pros) and when to commit to them, as well as a detailed match strategy. And he'll employ any advanced tech he can get his hands on. His particular brand is either very difficult to replicate or it is seen as not worth the hassle to do so, since we haven't seen a lot of other pros adopt that playstyle. It's also worth remembering that ESAM's been maining Pikachu since the Brawl era. That also appears to influence his opinions on - again, a character who benefits from very precise button timings and a detailed strategy.

I also can't help but to feel that he hard-commited to those views as being "optimal" in a sense. And ESAM is very much vocal about his views - he turned "Pikachu BUSTED!" into a meme. It's not to knock on too harshly - I do believe it's an extremely potent character, especially if it gets going with its offense.

These are unrealistic expectations. Barely anything has happened yet. You have to give these things time; remember how long it took for Joker to be discovered. But even in this time frame they do have impressive results. MKLeo beat both Maester and Spargo with Mythra to get into grand finals winner's side. He then chose DDD as a twich stream incentive or something and Byleth to fight Spargo in Grands where he lost both sets. MKLeo didn't commit to the new characters. There's a good chance he would have won the tournament if he'd stuck to Mythra. Also Spargo won a Juice Box with Mythra. He switched back to Could for the next tournament. What tournaments have Void or Cosmos even entered? Mythra hasn't been given a fair chance to shine.

But if barely anything has happened yet, we should not rush to conclusions and practically crown the next monarch of Smash characters just yet like Cloudy's matchup chart implies. It's also worth noting that Pyra / Mythra seem to fit MKLeo / Sparg0's respective playstyles, which might present something of a similar effect as the ESAM example above. Perhaps not to the same extent as say MKLeo with (which is I'd argue much more extreme than ESAM with Pika) but it is possible that they're able to accentuate Pyra / Mythra's strengths and fuse them into their playstyle - it does have the side effect of "making the character look better" for lack of a better phrase.

This is not to knock on the characters too harshly: do I think is a strong contender for Top 15 / Top 10? Yes - but I don't think we can draw too many conclusions yet, and not when it's MKLeo and Sparg0 doing a lot of the heavy lifting so far. People who were already extremely successful before Pyra / Mythra released.

I'll change my tune if Pyra / Mythra continues to find success say 6-7 months from now or at a lot of offline events, as well as if others start picking them up (a la how a lot of players picked up Joker after MKLeo and Zackray did win a lot with him). It's extremely difficult to call when we haven't seen a lot of offline nor in the West either - characters that a lot of people argue are very strong on their own right.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Speaking of Pyra/Mythra. Results for the most recent Juice Box+.

1. Sparg0 ()
2. Riddles
3. Maister
4. Ned ()
5. Yez
5. Chag ()
7. LeoN
7. BassMage

Edit: BTW new Steve tech

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Nairo did another stream vs Hackoru and Cosmos though Yuzu/ Parasec. So we got to see what top-level matchups may look like.

The "rematch" vs Cosmos the looks fary volitale to say the least. Mythra can able to rushdown and Pressure Seph alright. But Pyra loos like to actullay be the bigger issue. Because of Sephiroths tall hurtbox he is pretty vulnerable to getting caught in Blazing end. To the point where Cosmos straight up spammed it in sets and it worked. Plus lots of stocks were lost to dair ro up air kill comfirms "why is that a thing?"


Still Sepiroth having the range and mobility to rival Mythra (In OWA) at least helps a lot in the MU. Plus I lost track of the times Nairo was able to land a fair or counter on Cosmos offstage and just take a stock at like 60%

 

[Wunderwaft]

Edit: BTW new Steve tech

I want to lab this out extensively but I feel like it's gonna get patched out by the dev team in the next patch. A frame 1 option that gives Steve another double jump is extremely insane, so insane that I'm pretty sure this changes Steve's disadvantage state to one of the best in the game (just behind the obvious cheaters like ZSS and whatnot). Yonnie should've discovered this after the dev team would stop releasing patches.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But Pyra loos like to actullay be the bigger issue. Because of Sephiroths tall hurtbox he is pretty vulnerable to getting caught in Blazing end. To the point where Cosmos straight up spammed it in sets and it worked

I've played the MU a fair amount (online) and I can fairly confidently say that Blazing End is not much of an issue for Sephiroth in particular. It's annoying online but it can be dealt with, Mythra is for sure more of an issue than Pyra, at least offline. Online Pyra gets buffed quite a bit and Mythra nerfed but offline I don't see how Pyra would do well in neutral vs Sephiroth. She'd still be used to get KOs though.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I've played the MU a fair amount (online) and I can fairly confidently say that Blazing End is not much of an issue for Sephiroth in particular. It's annoying online but it can be dealt with, Mythra is for sure more of an issue than Pyra, at least offline. Online Pyra gets buffed quite a bit and Mythra nerfed but offline I don't see how Pyra would do well in neutral vs Sephiroth. She'd still be used to get KOs though.

Well Mythra likely is more of a problem until Sepiroth goes into OWA which allows him to make easy combacks vs Mythra. Cosmos mostly switched to Pyra to try to take the stock as quickly as possible (although it may bit always be the best option) I mean on paper by the time Sepiroth is at high enough percents to enter OWA like tons of Pyra's attacks will be able to kill him . But Sepiroth can easily blow Pyra up as well.


The MU is very voiliatle for sure. Nairo and Cosmos were playing on Yuzu so it would be a but more accurate to an offline expirence

 

[WatwatBreton]

Looking at these Nairo VODs (and also playing against the character offline a bit), is it me or does Sephiroth have a stellar ledge game? Between counter, octoslash absurd hitbox, fair wallcling shenanigans, fair to contest stage, and potentially an additional jump with wing, he seems like he has a lot of (relatively) low risk options he can mix up between.

You often see Nairo doing like, drop down octoslash regrab followed by fair wallcling, or drop down dj fair regrap into a getup option and he gets away with it pretty well. Granted he's still super light so if he gets called out he's gonna explode, but compared to fellow glass-canon edgy boi mewtwo who has to sacrifice goats and pray to Satan anytime he wants to get off ledge, Sephiroth seems like he got a good deal.

 

[Rizen]

Also MkLeo just won Frame Perfect Series 5 going entirely solo Pyra/Mythra and Sparg0 won the recent JuiceBox+ with mostly and some .

Thanks. I hadn't seen those. This thing's snowballing and I fully expect it to continue.

From testing with my characters (see signature), the characters who do best vs Ra are the ones who can play outside of their range. Mythra in particular just outbuttons you with huge, fast sword hitboxes on top of great mobility. YL and Sephiroth do the best vs them as they can actually threaten outside that range from projectiles of the former and the long sword of the latter. Although Ra will probably end up YL's worst MU, he doesn't lose to anyone super hard anymore. It's probably another -1 or -1.5. Sephiroth I can see going even with them.

The rest of my characters were given a lot of trouble, including Wolf. This makes sense as Chrom is sometimes held as his worst MU and Ra are basically better swordsmens. The thing is Mythra is amazing on her own but also paired with Pyra who can Dair>Usmash kill you at 80%. Pyra is absurdly powerful to be able to switch with Mythra. Her reward on hit is so high. I've seen a few MU charts where Ra had 2 slightly losing MUs at most but frankly I wouldn't be surprised if they lose to no one.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Looking at these Nairo VODs (and also playing against the character offline a bit), is it me or does Sephiroth have a stellar ledge game? Between counter, octoslash absurd hitbox, fair wallcling shenanigans, fair to contest stage, and potentially an additional jump with wing, he seems like he has a lot of (relatively) low risk options he can mix up between.

He is a contender for the best edgeguarder in the game. I would say that he's solidly better than Lucina off-stage, and that's one of her greatest strengths.

His ledgetrapping offline is sick but online it's nerfed since he can't f-tilt on reaction.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seph is a god of ledgetrap set-play and I love it.

I would say he is easily top 10 for ledgetrapping. My top 10 for ledgetrapping would be , , , , , , , , , .

Specifically Robin, Sephiroth and Belmonts are very methodical in their ledgetrap set-play and it just works so well. Belmont and Robin have issues that hold them back alot though. Sephiroth's kit is overall better which makes him much scarier in that position.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

He is a contender for the best edgeguarder in the game. I would say that he's solidly better than Lucina off-stage, and that's one of her greatest strengths.

His ledgetrapping offline is sick but online it's nerfed since he can't f-tilt on reaction.

Between Min-Min and Sepiroth. Characters that expliotable recoveries and struggled with ledgetrapping are going to really not have a good time. Especially if they end up becoming popular in the offline meta


Btw I am wondering about now as he really does not like going against most of the FP2 characters so far. and have the combination of high mobility, big disjoints and high/explosive killpower that is tailor made to make his life miserable. I do not think he has a good time vs either . She basically laughs at his up-b.

One or two new losing MU is not likely going to hurt a characters viability. However all three examples are considered potential top tiers by many. If they become common in the competive meta once offline comes back it cam be a bit of a issue for G&W

 

[KirbySquad101]

Between Min-Min and Sepiroth. Characters that expliotable recoveries and struggled with ledgetrapping are going to really not have a good time. Especially if they end up becoming popular in the offline meta


Btw I am wondering about now as he really does not like going against most of the FP2 characters so far. and have the combination of high mobility, big disjoints and high/explosive killpower that is tailor made to make his life miserable. I do not think he has a good time vs either . She basically laughs at his up-b.

One or two new losing MU is not likely going to hurt a characters viability. However all three examples are considered potential top tiers by many. If they become common in the competive meta once offlije comes back it cam be a bit of a issue for G&W

Well, the character being tied for the most representatives (not counting secondaries) for SWT doesn't really spell signs of a potentially problematic situation to me lol.

However, if we want to look at it from a theoretical standpoint and not a computational one, here's the most recent MU chart of Frido, one of South America's best players and possibly the 2nd best GnW in the world:

Nueva MU chart de g&w
Gracias a los que se pasaron por el stream! pic.twitter.com/EXkOtmULSz

— Frido (@FridoSSB) April 21, 2021

If we do take this chart as an absolute, then and 's inclusions only total up to a grand total of 6 losing MUs while still having positive MUs against a good chunk of the cast, including meta-relevant characters like and other less prominent but very real threats like. That still paints a fairly promising picture for the character, even with the consideration of the latest characters in mind.


That is of course under the assumption that this is 100% accurate: I'm still on the fence on how well does against Season 2's DLC barring Min Min, but aside from that, I do think he's overrating how well he does against while underrating how well he does against . Honestly though, each separate MU can merit its own lengthy discussion.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Said it before, but it's been a while so I'll say it again: I feel likewas overrated early on, but unlike fellow overrated-early character , there's been a weird lack of re-assessment when it comes to Pika. I feel like Pika is a weaker character than people tend to give it credit for.

Funnily enough, a problem Pika shares with Inkling is a lack of good kill moves. You just lack that good tilt or aerial or even kill throw that can get the job done until 140+. Of course, I'm aware both characters can take stocks earlier than that - of course they can, off of edge guards, smash attacks, up throw confirms. But if any of those had good reliability to them, I don't think we'd be seeing Inklings say that a lack of kill power is a big weakness for her. But we do. And I think Pika suffers a similar issue. I've seen top Pikas struggle to close out the stock, and an opponent with rage has a lot of comeback factor on such a light character. I would say that, while it's not always a weakness, it can come up as one should Pika be facing an opponent that can get around combos, edgeguards, and smash attacks well.

And I'd argue that there are more characters that can do that than are being given credit for. , , , , and come to mind as characters who get around those relatively well and can take Pika on pretty well thanks to their great projectile games. and can use their speed very well to get in. Pika also doesn't have the best range, so a good disjoint deals with Pika well. I'd say good ranged characters vs Pika would be , , , , , , , and . Maybe also . I feel like all of these characters are worth another look as characters that might be losing or even for Pika.

I think Pikachu is still a strong character, probably still top 10. I just think it's slightly overrated is all.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Said it before, but it's been a while so I'll say it again: I feel likewas overrated early on, but unlike fellow overrated-early character , there's been a weird lack of re-assessment when it comes to Pika. I feel like Pika is a weaker character than people tend to give it credit for.

Funnily enough, a problem Pika shares with Inkling is a lack of good kill moves. You just lack that good tilt or aerial or even kill throw that can get the job done until 140+. Of course, I'm aware both characters can take stocks earlier than that - of course they can, off of edge guards, smash attacks, up throw confirms. But if any of those had good reliability to them, I don't think we'd be seeing Inklings say that a lack of kill power is a big weakness for her. But we do. And I think Pika suffers a similar issue. I've seen top Pikas struggle to close out the stock, and an opponent with rage has a lot of comeback factor on such a light character. I would say that, while it's not always a weakness, it can come up as one should Pika be facing an opponent that can get around combos, edgeguards, and smash attacks well.

And I'd argue that there are more characters that can do that than are being given credit for. , , , , and come to mind as characters who get around those relatively well and can take Pika on pretty well thanks to their great projectile games. and can use their speed very well to get in. Pika also doesn't have the best range, so a good disjoint deals with Pika well. I'd say good ranged characters vs Pika would be , , , , , , , and . Maybe also . I feel like all of these characters are worth another look as characters that might be losing or even for Pika.

I think Pikachu is still a strong character, probably still top 10. I just think it's slightly overrated is all.

I personally think ESAM is the main culprit for the whole 'Pika is busted' mentality people seem to have despite evidence that it is most likely not the case.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The real question is, without ESAM, would Pikachu be a Top Tier character? I'd say no. Pikachu has a lot of tech, sure. But I'm not confident the character would be that great without the most loyal of character loyalist backing him.

In this case, I'd suggest looking at how the Japanese rank Pikachu, which I have absolutely 0,0% knowledge off. That's how the average non maxed out EVs and IVs, best possible moveset, best possible Nature Pikachu would fare. Aka, without ESAM.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The real question is, without ESAM, would Pikachu be a Top Tier character? I'd say no. Pikachu has a lot of tech, sure. But I'm not confident the character would be that great without the most loyal of character loyalist backing him.

In this case, I'd suggest looking at how the Japanese rank Pikachu, which I have absolutely 0,0% knowledge off. That's how the average non maxed out EVs and IVs, best possible moveset, best possible Nature Pikachu would fare. Aka, without ESAM.

I think most Pro Player japan tier lists also put Pikachu in top 5 at least. Even when they do not have too much rep of the character there

 

[Tri Knight]

That's how the average non maxed out EVs and IVs, best possible moveset, best possible Nature Pikachu would fare.

This reference got me lol

To answer the question, probably not top tier or at least not ESAM's "Top 1" that's for sure. ESAM is basically an outlier for Pikachu. I think Pika fits best at borderline top tier or somewhere in the upper echelon of high tier though. I love his dedication but ESAM severely overrates Pika, but I do think Pika can be pretty underrated by others as well.

But ESAM does show what Pika can do in fully capable hands and I think that at least means something.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This reference got me lol

To answer the question, probably not top tier or at least not ESAM's "Top 1" that's for sure. ESAM is basically an outlier for Pikachu. I think Pika fits best at borderline top tier or somewhere in the upper echelon of high tier though. I love his dedication but ESAM severely overrates Pika, but I do think Pika can be pretty underrated by others as well.

But ESAM does show what Pika can do in fully capable hands and I think that at least means something.

I do not think outlier is quite the word for ESAM when Pikachu is pakced #1 or top 3 at last in just about every Pro player tier lists going back several balance patches

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pikachu as either #1 or #2 is probably the most common takes from top level players (and other players as well). "Borderline top tier" is very far from the standard take. It's not necessarily a wrong take, but it is an uncommon take.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So being put in not only top-tier but #1-2 in most cases based mostly on how "busted" they are "in theory" while still lacking a playerbase and offi al results to back up the placing.

So.. Is Pikachu the new Shulk, or possible old Shulk, or maybe even Shulk before Shulk was even the "Shulk" of this games meta?

 

[Rizen]

I would say that, while it's not always a weakness, it can come up as one should Pika be facing an opponent that can get around combos, edgeguards, and smash attacks well.

And I'd argue that there are more characters that can do that than are being given credit for. ,

I agree with this. In fact I have the controversial opinion that has a +1 MU vs . First off, he has a better projectile game than Pika, which is rare. YL can navigate through the air and over platforms spamming pika wherever he goes and Pika's jolts are stuck to traveling on the ground. This means Pika must approach YL and YL can give him a hard time doing that. The other key factor is YL has Link's amazing sex kick Nair with only 6f landing lag but where Link's is f7, YL's is merely f4. It's among the best Nairs in the game. Nair is excellent at breaking Pika's untrue combos and there's 0 practical risk to throwing it out. YL can Nair (or Dair if he has time) when Pika draws close and at worst it will trade with Pika. Pika lacks what YL really hates: big disjoints or reflectors. YL's dinky sword does a fine job zoning pika. Pika can however gimp YL and YL can't gimp him back so he has that going for him.

 

[SKX31]

The real question is, without ESAM, would Pikachu be a Top Tier character? I'd say no. Pikachu has a lot of tech, sure. But I'm not confident the character would be that great without the most loyal of character loyalist backing him.

In this case, I'd suggest looking at how the Japanese rank Pikachu, which I have absolutely 0,0% knowledge off. That's how the average non maxed out EVs and IVs, best possible moveset, best possible Nature Pikachu would fare. Aka, without ESAM.

appears to be ranked high on a consistent basis (older tier lists, I know, but I've been having severe difficulties finding newer ones):

• Raito placed Pika in A tier in his 9.0.1 tier list (with it being based on potential and not ordered).
• Zackray's viewed Pika as S tier, at least in his 6.1.0 tier list.
• Likewise, Abadango ranked Pika as S tier as well in his July 2019 tier list (Patch 3.1.0). He placed Pika in S- in his 5.0 tier list, and Abadango later collabed with Tsu, Shogun, Kishiru (a Pika player in Japan, his highest is 17th at Umebura Japan Major 2019) and Takera for a 7.0 tier list that again ranked Pika in S tier. Sidenote: he's been playing a lot of Pika lately going by his YouTube channel.

Alongside Kishiru; Kisa, Naginu and Reyna have achieved some notable results with Pika in Japan, with decent placings at Umeburas and Sumabatos.

Yes, these are not the latest patch, I know. Still though, it's a decent starting point for how consistently Pika's been ranked over time.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree with this. In fact I have the controversial opinion that has a +1 MU vs . First off, he has a better projectile game than Pika, which is rare. YL can navigate through the air and over platforms spamming pika wherever he goes and Pika's jolts are stuck to traveling on the ground. This means Pika must approach YL and YL can give him a hard time doing that. The other key factor is YL has Link's amazing sex kick Nair with only 6f landing lag but where Link's is f7, YL's is merely f4. It's among the best Nairs in the game. Nair is excellent at breaking Pika's untrue combos and there's 0 practical risk to throwing it out. YL can Nair (or Dair if he has time) when Pika draws close and at worst it will trade with Pika. Pika lacks what YL really hates: big disjoints or reflectors. YL's dinky sword does a fine job zoning pika. Pika can however gimp YL and YL can't gimp him back so he has that going for him.

Honestly, I could see this. Even if it's a 55-45 type of advantage. I think even Link goes even against Pikachu I feel.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Said it before, but it's been a while so I'll say it again: I feel likewas overrated early on, but unlike fellow overrated-early character , there's been a weird lack of re-assessment when it comes to Pika. I feel like Pika is a weaker character than people tend to give it credit for.

Funnily enough, a problem Pika shares with Inkling is a lack of good kill moves. You just lack that good tilt or aerial or even kill throw that can get the job done until 140+. Of course, I'm aware both characters can take stocks earlier than that - of course they can, off of edge guards, smash attacks, up throw confirms. But if any of those had good reliability to them, I don't think we'd be seeing Inklings say that a lack of kill power is a big weakness for her. But we do. And I think Pika suffers a similar issue. I've seen top Pikas struggle to close out the stock, and an opponent with rage has a lot of comeback factor on such a light character. I would say that, while it's not always a weakness, it can come up as one should Pika be facing an opponent that can get around combos, edgeguards, and smash attacks well.

And I'd argue that there are more characters that can do that than are being given credit for. , , , , and come to mind as characters who get around those relatively well and can take Pika on pretty well thanks to their great projectile games. and can use their speed very well to get in. Pika also doesn't have the best range, so a good disjoint deals with Pika well. I'd say good ranged characters vs Pika would be , , , , , , , and . Maybe also . I feel like all of these characters are worth another look as characters that might be losing or even for Pika.

I think Pikachu is still a strong character, probably still top 10. I just think it's slightly overrated is all.

I also am willing to argue is one of the better characters against Pikachu, something even ESAM acknowledged when making his last matchup chart (he listed it as Pika's most difficult 55:45 matchup). Luigi is able to work around certain aspects of Pika's kit very well.

• Pika's ability to avoid some OOS options due to his small size doesn't really matter here, due to Luigi's up-b hitting very low.
• Luigi has fairly solid options to hit Pikachu when pancaking such as dtilt which can be very rewarding when landed.
• Luigi is heavy enough to where he's surprisingly hard for Pikachu to kill onstage. Pikachu will mainly have to go for edgeguards in this matchup for kills.
• Luigi fireball and zair can both clank with Tjolt, making it not as reliable in neutral as it is against a lot of the cast.
• Luigi's ability to fight Pika from a somewhat safe distance with grabs, zairs, and fireballs can make it harder for Pikachu to win neutral than it seems like it should be.
• Luigi's advantage state and damage output outclass Pikachu's.
• Because of the nature of Luigi's advantage state and how reliant his advantage state is on his combo game, being able to quick attack in disadvantage matters less for Pikachu in this matchup than it does against a lot of the cast.

I think the main thing that prevents Luigi from outright winning this matchup (like some people thought he did in Smash 4) is that offstage he's extremely fragile. Being able to mash Cyclone like Elegant and ConCon are able to helps, but it's not a perfect solution. Luigi also struggles a bit when playing from behind, but I don't think that Luigi will be at a % deficit often enough for that to shift the matchup to being Pika favor. Elegant, Scot, and WaKa all believe this matchup to be even, and ESAM thinks the matchup might have a chance of being even. And I'm inclined to agree with that.

 

[SKX31]

SWT East Asia South online qualifier's Top 16 tomorrow:

WB:

LynZle vs. PSI Force
Tanark vs. Pwner
Yoshi_95 vs. Lira*
XIFL vs. Junkyarddude

LB:

Confnin vs. Mystikmol
J12** vs. Dokdohotdog
Steeb*** vs. excel
PsineWave vs. BAVillain


*(Resides in Taiwan and is ranked 1st in the Taiwanese PR.)
** (Not to be confused with the main from Florida. This Falcon main was ranked 7th in North Dakota before joining the USAF in late 2020 and winding up at one of its bases in South Korea. He got really ecstatic over causing upsets and getting to Top 16 in this qualifier.)
*** (Resides in South Korea, ranked 5th in South Korea's PR.)

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Collision Online is happening today, and whoever wins the tournament is getting into Ultimate Summit 3.

Here is top 12 of Collision Online.

1. Sparg0 ,
2. Maister
3. Riddles
4. Sonix
5. Yez
5. Epic Gabriel
7. ESAM
7. Capitancito
9. ShinyMark
9. Sharp ,,,,
9. Chag
9. Varun

And hey, look at that, while we were discussing whether is overrated or not (yet again), we get good Pikachu results outside of ESAM.

 

[SKX31]

SWT East Asia South's Qualifiers just concluded, and the results:

1st. XIFL
2nd. LynZle
3rd. Yoshi_95
4th. Junkyarddude
5th. Pwner
6th. Psinewave
7th (LCQ 1st). Tanark
8th (LCQ 2nd). Sejun

First that qualified for the Regional stage, and it comes from a perhaps unexpected player (even if he's ranked 6th in South Korea's PR he's more known for his Pokemon TCG success). Overall there was some very interesting sets and some strong gameplay - in particular XIFL impressed with his strong grasp of Squirtle and Ivysaur in particular. Those 8 have qualified for the East Asia Regional final, and will face off against the 8 who qualified from Japan last week:

KEN (1st)
Kuroponzu (2nd)
Omuatu (3rd)
ProtoBanham (4th)
Shuton (5th)
Harasen (6th)
HERO (1st LCQ)
Gackt (2nd LCQ)

The East Asia Regional will be held July 3rd-4th, presumably in Japan (since SWT partnered with Umebura).

SWT will move onto NA next week for its first of four online qualifiers, the Southwest. These US states will enter the ring:

Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Nevada, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah

I can imagine that people like Elegant, MVD and Larry Lurr may enter, although we'll have to see by the time the April 27th deadline comes around.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

One thing to discuss is the amount of Pyra and Mythra's in both the SWT: East Asia Qualifier and Collision Online. There was 3 Pyra/Mythra's in the SWT this weekend that at least got top 24 and in Collision there was 4 Pyra/Mythra's in Collision Online in top 48. Granted, some of this could be because their the most recent characters, but I think Pyra and Mythra's ease of use is also something of a factor. They're very easy to pick up and play, being sword characters that have rather generous hitboxes while being very good. In addition, Cosmos DQ'd and VoiD, Leo, Cloudy and Mew2King didn't play in the tourney, so we didn't even get the best Pyra/Mythra players except Sparg0.

I think their overall usage when offline returns in the USA could be similar to that of , and .

 

[blackghost]

Yes, I do believe Smash 4 Sheik was better than Ultimate Joker is.

wait this is a controversial take?

also it continues to make me laugh people say witch time was what made smash 4 bayo what she was that not the case at all. its witch twst its all about witch twist. you know the frame 3 anti-air combo starer with a huge hitbox? yeah, that move.
but that's beside the point.

do i believe aegis is the next bayo? No, but her matchup chart although comparable by category is not comparable by margin. bayo was slaughtering character by min of 6:4 to 7# or worse. some characters she approached 8:2 and a few poor souls legit had 9:1 vs smash 4 bayo. thats the difference. as of now the aegis girls are beating characters prob in the realm of 55:45 to maybe 6:4 strong but nothing reaching absurd.

where ultimate is a better game than smash 4, melee, or brawl is that you can play most of the cast (not all but most) and if you are good enough you'll win and perform well.

i do think they are top 5. im sick of pikachu somehow being in that grouping for basically one player beliefs.

 

[Idon]

Man, I feel bad for Yez. Man places top 8 so many times but he constantly gets taken down by the top wifi players, especially Sparg0 and his warpaths through losers' brackets.

But that's just my Ike bias speaking here, lol. Lotta wifi warriors are placing similarly with significantly worse characters.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'm pretty confident on what happens with ShinyMark when offline comes back will determine Pikachu's fate. If ShinyMark travels and does really well and we have a Pikachu player aside from ESAM that's PGR'd, it gives more evidence of Pikachu being top 5 or top 3. Otherwise, it'll probably be a lot like Smash 4 and Brawl where the character's overrated.

 

[ARISTOS]

are definitely top 10 IMO, though definitely not as abusive as any of Smash 4's top tiers.

However, their ease of use means that you'll definitely need to have a solid game plan against them at essentially all levels of tournament play. Like Palu/ROB/Wolf if you don't know how to fight against them you won't have any bracket runs of notoriety.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New Tweek Talks. It's about Comeback Mechanics, SWT and Sparg0 winning Collision and getting into Summit.

 

[Firox]

where ultimate is a better game than smash 4, melee, or brawl is that you can play most of the cast (not all but most) and if you are good enough you'll win and perform well.

Absolutely. Ultimate's overall balancing and the potential viability of most of its 80+ characters makes it a serious cut above its predecessors.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I seriously love Ultimate's balancing. It makes me happy to know that people can just pick their favorites and are likely to do well. We're close to ideal balance, too. Just tone up the bottom 10 characters and tone down some of the top 10 who haven't been toned down yet, and we could be looking at the whole cast being viable, bar probably Little Mac because I'm doubtful QoL love can save such a dysfunctional design. Still would like to see him get, say, a better combo game or something, though.