Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Wigglerman]

Imo, It's main benefit comes from the increased amount of projectiles he can tank (ex: he can tank 's power wave now), making it a useful punish option when they throw them out. To me, that's when it's most useful. It can also be used to tank some multihit uAirs in juggle situations, like .

Will it actually chew through enough of Palu's stuff? I feel like she will just keep on steam rolling before the cart gets you out of range, especially if she's already started to connect. Then again I feel Palu is just an all around oppressive character so she's the extreme case. lol

 

[Rocketjay8]

Let's just talk about Steve's... Questionable grab hitbox

There is defiantly going to be a lot of whiffs with this move. Kirby and Pikachu will probably take full advantage of this.

 

[Maplejr.]

Will it actually chew through enough of Palu's stuff? I feel like she will just keep on steam rolling before the cart gets you out of range, especially if she's already started to connect. Then again I feel Palu is just an all around oppressive character so she's the extreme case. lol

I only meant that in juggle situations, where she would be underneath him. He'll armor it, and It'll get him out of range for an immediate followup. Of course, in neutral that's a different story, lol.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Patch 9.0.1 is out...

Let's see what glitches got patched.

 

[Wigglerman]

Steve was deleted from Smash. He WAS the glitch all along!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well apparently Steve's "meat" has been removed from the game.
The dev team sure has some.... strange priorities. LMAO

 

[Wunderwaft]

Patch is out:

大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL 更新データ Ver.9.0.1 ［2020.10.22 配信］｜Nintendo Switch サポート情報｜任天堂サポート

『大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL』の更新データ Ver.9.0.1 ［2020.10.22 配信］に関するサポート情報をご案内します。

www.nintendo.co.jp

Here's a translation I found:

• Fixed an issue where in rare cases a match fighter could break through the terrain if a match fighter destroys a "block" while Steve / Alex has generated a "block" in a specific position.
• Fixed an issue where in rare cases anvil could get out of the terrain when Steve / Alex created an anvil with an aerial attack to pinch an opponent with a "block" in a specific position.
• Fixed an issue that could cause a match fighter to become inoperable when Steve / Alex hit a match fighter with a "minecart" in certain situations.
• Fixed an issue where Steve / Alex's "Minecart" might not hit the opponent fighter if it reflected off the wall.
• Fixed an issue where detaining a match fighter in Steve / Alex's "Minecart" could occasionally warp the match fighter to the original point where it was detained.
• Fixed an issue that allowed certain fighters to slip through Steve / Alex's "blocks" after being shot down once.

It seems this patch was bug fixes only. Also RIP Steve's meat.

 

[Rizen]

Well apparently Steve's "meat" has been removed from the game.
The dev team sure has some.... strange priorities. LMAO

That thumbnail looks really wrong.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Oh and the devs haven't touched the GIMR anvil shield break tech. I guess they don't treat it as a "bug" as some have speculated and it's gonna stay for good

 

[Wigglerman]

That thumbnail looks really wrong.

That isn't edited either other than the signage and Steve's eyes. The win pose legit looked like that once he stopped chewing the steak and his arm was lowered.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Oh and the devs haven't touched the GIMR anvil shield break tech. I guess they don't treat it as a "bug" as some have speculated and it's gonna stay for good

I said it would probably get patched out. I never said it was a bug. There's nothing buggy about it; everything there is working as intended. It is of course possible that it won't get patched out, but I wouldn't exactly be surprised to read "Decreased the damage the anvil does to shields" in patch notes sometime in the future.

 

[Rizen]

Oh and the devs haven't touched the GIMR anvil shield break tech. I guess they don't treat it as a "bug" as some have speculated and it's gonna stay for good

This plays into my prediction of Steve becoming a Luigi like character with poor mobility but strong CQC combos and tactics. He has a lot of, I hate to use this word, potential but will always be held back by terrible mobility.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I said it would probably get patched out. I never said it was a bug. There's nothing buggy about it; everything there is working as intended. It is of course possible that it won't get patched out, but I wouldn't exactly be surprised to read "Decreased the damage the anvil does to shields" in patch notes sometime in the future.

I wasn't targeting you specifically but I was more so responding to the general reception that I've noticed some people make (both here and elsewhere) whenever a janky Steve tech gets discovered and people approach it with the mindset of "it's gonna get patched out". I feel like people rely way too much on hoping for patches to help them in the future rather than figure out countermeasures and strategies.

Yeah the anvil trick could get patched out by decreasing the shield damage, but there is no guarantee the devs could do it and there isn't really much reason to patch it out since the move isn't easy to pull off due to how the anvil doesn't break the block if it doesn't directly fall at the center and the move itself uses a piece of iron.

I guess what I'm trying to say is predictions for how moves could get handled by patches is pointless if they aren't bugs like the videos we've seen where fighters fall through the stage. The balancing team doesn't have the most clear rhyme and reason for how and when they push out buffs and nerfs.

 

[SwagGuy99]

This plays into my prediction of Steve becoming a Luigi like character with poor mobility but strong CQC combos and tactics. He has a lot of, I hate to use this word, potential but will always be held back by terrible mobility.

I think they have some similarities, but it's less than I initially thought. I think Steve is the inferior character of the two overall for several reasons though.

• Luigi and Steve both have good CQC options, but overall, Steve has similar or worse frame data and utility on a lot of them.
• Steve's neutral is overall lackluster, especially compared to Luigi. He has to lean heavily on Minecart in neutral, and if he doesn't have resources for it, his options are severely limited.
• Having to collect resources in order to gain access to blocks, anvil, TNT, and minecart (his most threatening trap moves) harms him a lot, as in theory, he wants to be setting up traps and walls whenever he can. Collecting resources is a commitment for him, and only on Lylat is there really a guarantee of him being able to have a large supply of iron after he mines.
• Steve's slow mobility means that he can be rushed down easily. Compared to Luigi, Luigi has a significantly better run speed and initial dash as well as higher air acceleration.
• I think Luigi and Steve struggle against zoners a lot but Steve arguably struggles even more in Luigi's worst matchups than Luigi himself does. Belmonts? Prevent Steve from collecting materials early on so he's stuck with little to work with and from there, Belmonts can play the matchup similar to Luigi. ZSS? Rushes Steve down hard, doesn't have to commit to scenarios she doesn't want to, can chase him down easily if he tries to build above the ground with blocks. You get the idea, but it gets worse. Steve also gets rushed down, something most characters can't do to Luigi all too effectively because they get stuffed out with z-air, fireballs, or one of Luigi's many fast normals. Steve does not have nearly as many options to deal with this as Luigi, and even if he did, he needs to prioritize getting materials as early as possible in order to actually be able to play the game. So eventually, he's going to have to stop and collect materials, and he's going to get rushed down anyways.
• Steve's combo game past lower percents isn't nearly as impressive as Luigi's and his combo starters are more predictable and telegraphed than Luigi's since he has less of them.
• Steve struggles a lot in general if he doesn't have the right resources in the right scenarios, meanwhile Luigi doesn't have to worry about this.

In my opinion, the only think Steve really has over Luigi is ledgetrapping (situationally, depending on the materials he has) and a better recovery.

Steve's worse overall move speed combined with a lack of neutral tools and a worse overall combo game (although it's still very good at lower percents) means that while he has some similar qualities to Luigi, I don't see him being nearly as good. Steve definitely has room to grow as people optimize his setups and traps further, but I think his lack of multiple good zoning tools and his lack of a solid neutral option (outside of minecart which is predictable and reactable in a lot of situations) means that further optimization to his traps doesn't even help him that much.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Unless the Steve anvil thing starts occurring with a lot of regularity, it seems too situational to become a massive issue. Particularly, because Steve really doesn't have the best mobility stats. Part of the reason I could see it get patched out is simply because a lot of things get patched out even if they're not that bad. Like the Diddy infinite. We didn't have time to see whether Diddy players would pull it off consistently. They took one look at it and poofed it away. They also have nerfed Luigi's infinite way back a little after release. In both cases, players simply ended up finding other ways to go for them.

 

[ZephyrZ]

When discussing Steve's mobility, I think its worth mentioning that a character's mobility is more then just their run/dash/air speed stats.

Steve's ability to attack while moving, place blocks in the air or ride in a minecart are all things I'd consider mobility attributes, just like how we count Peach's float and Pika's quick attack towards their overall mobility. His mobility is still pretty bad but I don't think it's absolutely horrendous if you take all of those abilities into account.

 

[blackghost]

Unless the Steve anvil thing starts occurring with a lot of regularity, it seems too situational to become a massive issue. Particularly, because Steve really doesn't have the best mobility stats. Part of the reason I could see it get patched out is simply because a lot of things get patched out even if they're not that bad. Like the Diddy infinite. We didn't have time to see whether Diddy players would pull it off consistently. They took one look at it and poofed it away. They also have nerfed Luigi's infinite way back a little after release. In both cases, players simply ended up finding other ways to go for them.

except they didnt poof the infinite out. they tried messing with the banana and it didnt work. the banana has to be fully changed in terms of hitstun, pull ange and speed, or frame data on the throw. the infinite is still in the game. its just different now.

 

[Terotrous]

...Wha...what? Like, you're allowed to your opinion, and Lucario is def not a good character, but how is Doctor Mario, a character with a bottom 3 recovery, horrible mobility, lacking combos, a character like Little Mac who doesn't even have aerials, Ganondorf (no kill confirms, ironically struggles with finishing stocks, weak neutral, weak advantage, horrendous disadvantage, bottom 3 recovery), Isabelle, a lackluster zoner, Jigglypuff, etc?

Thinkaman already gave a very long response to this but I wanted to add in my thoughts because I was also on the "Lucario is at least bottom 3" train pre-patch.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that there's a pretty big difference between characters like Ganondorf and Little Mac and Lucario. Ganon and Mac have extreme strengths. Ganon does like a billion damage on everything he does and his smash attacks are extremely scary. Mac has actually insane frame data and tons of armor everywhere. Of course, they also have extreme weaknesses that most of the cast can exploit fairly easily. However, the fact that they have such immense power in their kit, even balanced out by weakness, gives them at least a little room for optimism. I don't dispute that these characters are still well-towards the bottom of the roster, but they at least have a little upset or doubles potential if nothing else.

When we come to a character like Lucario (or Isabelle, I was also on the Isabelle hate train before she got her buffs), they don't have anywhere near this kind of explosive power, instead they're kind of mediocre at best and still have a lot of flaws. Like Lucario for example has very bad frame data and just no real standout tools in his kit. With high aura, he's maybe an average character, but he only gets to be this character for a small portion of the game, and every time any member of the rest of the cast gets buffs it's an implicit nerf for him since it means he dies faster. Unlike Mac and Ganon, who might have some use in doubles, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever pick Lucario. This is why I tend to put the characters who just seem mediocre and uninspiring lower than those who have strengths but are terribly flawed.

If you want more proof that it's better to be a flawed but explosive character than a mediocre one, just look at Smash 4, because Lucario was an explosive character in that game. At high aura, he had Ganon-level power if not moreso. Not surprisingly, he was a vastly better character in that game, generally considered to be around upper mid-tier, and almost everyone was terrified to fight him. No amount of buffs that he has gotten in Ult have even come close to making up for the loss of Side B killing you at 50%. Even though I don't think this design was really healthy for the game, I think he needs to get at least a little bit of that power back. Maybe command grab could kill around 80 at high aura instead of its current 120 or so. He needs the fear that that move causes to help the rest of his kit work.

 

[Mikazuki]

I honestly think Steve's minecart is his best move and like ZSS flip jump or Olimar's whistle a free out of jail cart. I dunno about Tier Placement, but while he does have some gimmicks about him, it doesn't feel like he has a neutral whatsover. His lack of mobility hinders him from pushing advantage that much and he either gets his kills from reads or ledgetrap situations, which seems to be his biggest strength, I guess. In theory, he could escape disadvantage with blocks or minecart, but good luck doing that against the likes of Mario, ZSS, Joker, Falcon, Lucina or Corrin, who keep you in the air forever. It's also funny how low priority some of his move have, escpecially up- and downsmash.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Why was the meat removed?

Btw. Zelda got a shadow buff it seems:

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1319159880096247808

 

[Guynamednelson]

Why was the meat removed?

Btw. Zelda got a shadow buff it seems:

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1319159880096247808

Some say penis jokes. Others say because the model didn't need to be rendered anymore after Steve burped.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Why was the meat removed?

Btw. Zelda got a shadow buff it seems:

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1319159880096247808

Duck Hunt's gunman also got the same change it seems like.

自分犬使わないから元をあんまり覚えてないんだけどコレもなんかおかしくない…？ pic.twitter.com/ISoKORtJtV

— ぶれ (@guk_ptp) October 22, 2020

 

[Cap'n Jack]

GOML North American Open: Northeast USA

1st: Marss
2nd: Pokelam
3rd: LeoN
4th: Myles
5th: Gen
5th: Sharp
7th: IcyMist
7th: 9superpie


That wraps up the qualifiers of the GOML North American Open series. We are moving on to the Finale, which is taking place at November 7th.
Here is each of the qualifiers winners.

East Canada (229 Entrants - August 29th-30th): Riddles
Mexico (231 Entrants - September 5th-6th): Sparg0
South USA (101 Entrants - September 12th-13th): Grayson
West Canada (84 Entrants - September 19th-20th): Ouch!?
Southeast USA (173 Entrants - September 26th-27th): ESAM
Midwest USA (195 Entrants - October 3rd-4th): Ned
West USA (216 Entrants - October 10th-11th): BestNess
Northeast USA (264 Entrants - October 17th-18th): Marss

Nice to see a place high

 

[StoicPhantom]

Btw. Zelda got a shadow buff it seems

It's probably still safer to short hop in neutral, but now there is no excuse for Zelda mains to not learn this with the more lenient input window. Looking forward to the platform shenanigans with this.

 

[Lacrimosa]

It's probably still safer to short hop in neutral, but now there is no excuse for Zelda mains to not learn this with the more lenient input window. Looking forward to the platform shenanigans with this.

For anyone interested:

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1319163365156007937

The timing to do this got much, much easier. I might try this out later but if it can be done more consistently (which seems very likely), then that's really big imo ( The success depends on Ven's willingness to do this tech, though).

 

[SwagGuy99]

Thread of Steve's Block placement grids #SSBU_Steve

FD pic.twitter.com/VD52RB7Uaz

— Xem (@XemTheWildCard) October 22, 2020

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Some say penis jokes. Others say because the model didn't need to be rendered anymore after Steve burped.

To quote PapaGenos "Can you imagine a world without the internet overreacting about everything?"

Anyway, can someone fill me in on the shadow buffs and their possible uses?

 

[Lacrimosa]

To quote PapaGenos "Can you imagine a world without the internet overreacting about everything?"

Anyway, can someone fill me in on the shadow buffs and their possible uses?

Basically, it has gotten a lot easier to do displaced phantom because you don't need to RAR (reverse aerial rush?) it anymore.
Seems like it didn't embed the tweet correctly but here is how it's done:

You actually don’t have to do the Rar, you just have to do a backwards full hop while you summon phantom close enough to the ground for it to stick

— JP53 (@_JP53) October 22, 2020

It's more consistent since it's not a, I believe, three frame window anymore. And the overall input string got way easier.
But then again, it all depends on how this tech will be used, if at all. All I can say is that only one player (Meru) used it to good success prior to this change in some matches but Meru mains Peach, so there isn't much sample size.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Basically, it has gotten a lot easier to do displaced phantom because you don't need to RAR (reverse aerial rush?) it anymore.
Seems like it didn't embed the tweet correctly but here is how it's done:

You actually don’t have to do the Rar, you just have to do a backwards full hop while you summon phantom close enough to the ground for it to stick

— JP53 (@_JP53) October 22, 2020

It's more consistent since it's not a, I believe, three frame window anymore. And the overall input string got way easier.
But then again, it all depends on how this tech will be used, if at all. All I can say is that only one player (Meru) used it to good success prior to this change in some matches but Meru mains Peach, so there isn't much sample size.

Ah okay, so a QoL change like Melee's UCF.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ah okay, so a QoL change like Melee's UCF.

Yep, and you can do it out of a full-hop now as well. Don't know how useful that'll be, though.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Ah okay, so a QoL change like Melee's UCF.

Yep, and you can do it out of a full-hop now as well. Don't know how useful that'll be, though.

Being able to do a full hop means that Zelda can place it on a platform like so:

Like are you fucking serious pic.twitter.com/qdFjkbo8uT

— katy parry (@katyparrygg) October 22, 2020

In theory this should allow numerous string extensions and the ability to cover the air/platforms while remaining on the ground. Think potentially shutting down aerial monsters like that can give Phantom a hard time normally.

 

[Thinkaman]

Isn't that multiplier one of the last things applied though? Would it actually affect the armor for a single hit?

State Moves, Deep Breathing, Monado, Psych Up, Oomp, SH aerial penalty, ect. are taken into account before armor.

1v1 multiplier is not, and is the very last thing applied. A singular hitbox will give the same outcome in 1v1 or otherwise. However, cumulated damage from previous hits will be reflecting the total, multiplied damage.

Mario Jab does (base) 2.2%/1.7%/4.0%. Without taking into account stale moves, that does 7.9% total. This is not enough to break 8% armor, such as on Mac neutral-b.

However, in 1v1 the cumulative damage applied to the first 2 hits would be counted, as 2.64%/2.04%. While the armor check on the last hit would still only reflect 4.0% at the time of the check, it would consider Mac having taken 4.68% + 4.0% = 8.68% total, or enough to easily break the armor.

In other words, outside of 1v1, Mario can only break 8% armor with a fully fresh jab combo. In a 1v1, he can break 8% armor with a slightly stale jab combo, as long as it wasn't the last 2 moves used.



Edit: This is a great time to advocate my claim that a small armor buff to Straight Lunge is one of the things that would make the most difference for Mac. (Exactly like K. Rool and now Bowser Jr. got, except their armor values started lower and needed a bigger increase than Mac would require.)

Currently, Mac can use his 8% armor Straight Lunge as an alternative to air dodging, thanks to the freedom to shield cancel it as a compelling alternative to an air-dodge's ending lag. (The benefits being frame 1 + armored landing, at the cost of different commitment.) However, 8% is a very limiting application--you can only get through say, a Mario uair or Pikachu uair--and not one of their other aerials. A defensive option that only works on one move is... just dubious.

But at around 10.5% (What Bowser Jr. got), Mac jumps to being able to armor through typical speedster aerials like Mario nair, Pikachu nair, Pikachu bair, Wolf fair, non-Arsene Joker bair, or even Mario bair if it's not completely fresh.

That's a vastly superior landing option, even if it's vulnerable to plenty of counterplay. But Mac can respond to those answers with his own, other tools, and the final picture is much more rosy for him.

 

[Thinkaman]

Extremely rare double post to put some numbers on the Zelda Phantom topic.

Previously, Zelda could only get a "sticky" Phantom that stuck on the ground by doing it within 3 frames of starting a short hop input. (essentially, buffering it during jump squat)

Now, she can do it within 10 frames of a short hop, or 3 frames of a full hop. That's the numerical difference.

AFAIK has no particular relevance to Gunmen being more "sticky", as they come out later.

BTW, it should go without saying, but this is all a consequence of fixes to ground collision code.

 

[Aaron1997]

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

clips.twitch.tv

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Apparently Projectiles can be blocked by Platforms now

 

[Thinkaman]

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

clips.twitch.tv

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Apparently Projectiles can be blocked by Platforms now

Possibly; I've been trying to replicate this (with various characters) for about an hour and haven't got anything.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I've tried to test this out with a friend on Richter and got a bingo after the bottom of the cross hit the top layer of the platform. It seems to only occur with pixel perfect spacing which makes it a rare glitch. I'm not sure if this only works on projectiles that bounce off walls like Richter's cross, or if it affects all projectiles in general, or if it only affects the cross. I've tested this out with Young Link's projectiles and Samus' projectiles but didn't get the desired result.

 

[$.A.F.]

So Aaron just won a bracket reset juice box over Bestness using solo Steve. https://youtu.be/5Un4XIt7HR8

 

[NotLiquid]

So Aaron just won a bracket reset juice box over Bestness using solo Steve. https://youtu.be/5Un4XIt7HR8

BestNess kind of threw his entire set advantage by getting rolled using his own Steve for the first set so as far as a reset from losers goes it was kinda "eh".

Watching Aaron's run I think my only illuminating (new) takeaways about Steve himself for me were

• This character craps out damage on one confirm at an insane rate, but man does he really want you to get caught into an up tilt (which - to be fair - is somewhat likely to happen at some point during a game). Steve play during an opponent's late percentages feels especially reliant on reads.
• Getting encumbered during resource mining is a little more of a problem than I expected. Aaron rarely ever tried to mine at any point where Ness was on stage because Ness' offensive pressure barely left much breathing room, and there was definitely more than one moment in top 8 where Steve's lack of material worked against him.
• Without Minecart, Steve's neutral looks extremely suboptimal since it's so contingent on waiting out approaches - and I feel the counterplay for that particular move will increase over time. I'm somewhat torn on where this particular issue will lead him, especially in a non-online environment, and since the best variant of the move is another resource drain.
• People respect Steve's grab and up Smash a little too much.

I don't wanna sound too cynical but I kinda agree with Dabuz's analysis that I didn't feel I saw any particularly new dimension to the character that makes me think higher of him. The character is really entertaining to watch and Aaron is a great player but a lot of his bracket play accentuated issues that are going to be a problem for him in the long run. For now I feel like his best trait is that his early percentage advantage state is insanely strong, but how strong that alone makes the character in relation to the cast is a discussion I'm not quite ready to have (I repeat myself often here; a lot of "average-at-best" characters in Ultimate are still viable in this game).

 

[StrangeKitten]

BestNess kind of threw his entire set advantage by getting rolled using his own Steve for the first set so as far as a reset from losers goes it was kinda "eh".

Watching Aaron's run I think my only illuminating (new) takeaways about Steve himself for me were

• This character craps out damage on one confirm at an insane rate, but man does he really want you to get caught into an up tilt (which - to be fair - is somewhat likely to happen at some point during a game). Steve play during an opponent's late percentages feels especially reliant on reads.
• Getting encumbered during resource mining is a little more of a problem than I expected. Aaron rarely ever tried to mine at any point where Ness was on stage because Ness' offensive pressure barely left much breathing room, and there was definitely more than one moment in top 8 where Steve's lack of material worked against him.
• Without Minecart, Steve's neutral looks extremely suboptimal since it's so contingent on waiting out approaches - and I feel the counterplay for that particular move will increase over time. I'm somewhat torn on where this particular issue will lead him, especially in a non-online environment, and since the best variant of the move is another resource drain.
• People respect Steve's grab and up Smash a little too much.

I don't wanna sound too cynical but I kinda agree with Dabuz's analysis that I didn't feel I saw any particularly new dimension to the character that makes me think higher of him. The character is really entertaining to watch and Aaron is a great player but a lot of his bracket play accentuated issues that are going to be a problem for him in the long run. For now I feel like his best trait is that his early percentage advantage state is insanely strong, but how strong that alone makes the character in relation to the cast is a discussion I'm not quite ready to have (I repeat myself often here; a lot of "average-at-best" characters in Ultimate are still viable in this game).

Kinda just cements my feelings at the moment that Steve is around the middle of mid tier. I know that's a super basic place to think a new character should be, but he seems so polarizing in his strengths and weaknesses that I'm not feeling neither high tier, nor low tier.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Man, is getting nerfed every single patch. I am not talking about them changing the monkey himself like nerfing his bair or something, I mean every time a new character is added, he always gets screwed over by them.
They either combo the hell out of him to death:, and Steve.
Zone him out:, , and
Or they have a zero to death:

And on top of all of this, they are refusing to fix most of his weaknesses that are detrimental to his viability; Moves being unsafe on hit at low percents, nerfed recovery from smash 4, etc.