Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

I noticed that, on a couple of occasions during this set, ShinyMark didn't close the stock when he otherwise would have because Skittles fell out of forward air. Makes me feel like the fix was a good idea after all

I don't think anyone has provided a good argument why the fair fix would be bad aside from "Pikachu is already so good", in which case a better solution would be nerfing something else to compensate (which, granted, they didn't do). It's not like they made Pikachu's f-smash kill 10% earlier or something, they made a multi-hit move more consistent, and it was merely one of many multi-hit moves that were made more consistent this patch.

 

[SwagGuy99]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I don't think I've really seen much regarding how Tsu feels about Lucario as a character in Ultimate other than this, to be honest.

 

[Firox]

"Why the hell are they filling a pothole in front of the bank while there are orphans who need to be adopted?"

I'm not sure what leap is more ridiculous:

I know which leap is most ridiculous: Condescendingly comparing the slight tweaking of digital information with the adoption of a parentless human child.

You do realize that it's possible to make a point without sounding like a pompous hypocrite, right?

 

[BitBitio]

I know which leap is most ridiculous: Condescendingly comparing the slight tweaking of digital information with the adoption of a parentless human child.

You do realize that it's possible to make a point without sounding like a pompous hypocrite, right?

Er, Firox , I think it’s just the principle behind the complaints- they can be pretty ridiculous.

 

[Firox]

Er, Firox , I think it’s just the principle behind the complaints- they can be pretty ridiculous.

The thing is, the original argument isn't ridiculous at all. My point was that fixing a bug on Pikachu's Fair seems like a waste of time when Pikachu itself was never struggling to begin with. Meanwhile, you have legitimately flawed characters being ignored completely. Granted, to call characters like Pikachu or Ness "broken" is a bit of an exaggeration, the response that was raised was WAY out of proportion and presented in an even more exaggerated way. Also, with regards to Pikachu, his results may not support the idea of him being "broken" per se, but how many characters in Ultimate are capable of doing 60% damage with an inescapable combo? Meanwhile you have a slew of characters that never even see tournament play. Does that sound like the balance team is tightening the spread of usage or results? It doesn't matter whether some characters have already received buffs in the past. If their results are still negligible, then why not give them more attention instead of tweaking something so minor for a character that's already good?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

The thing is, the original argument isn't ridiculous at all. My point was that fixing a bug on Pikachu's Fair seems like a waste of time when Pikachu itself was never struggling to begin with. Meanwhile, you have legitimately flawed characters being ignored completely. Granted, to call characters like Pikachu or Ness "broken" is a bit of an exaggeration, the response that was raised was WAY out of proportion and presented in an even more exaggerated way. Also, with regards to Pikachu, his results may not support the idea of him being "broken" per se, but how many characters in Ultimate are capable of doing 60% damage with an inescapable combo? Meanwhile you have a slew of characters that never even see tournament play. Does that sound like the balance team is tightening the spread of usage or results? It doesn't matter whether some characters have already received buffs in the past. If their results are still negligible, then why not give them more attention instead of tweaking something so minor for a character that's already good?

I wouldn’t ever call making moves work as intended a waste, designing something, knowing it doesn’t work as it was intended to work and then just ignoring it is an awful design philosophy. Sure Pikachu is a good character but that doesn’t mean his moves shouldn’t work as designed. I personally dislike how smash has interpreted Sonic greatly but I still don’t have a problem with them trying to fix his up air so it behaves as they intended for it to behave. Now I can understand sentiments that Pikachu didn’t have anything tuned down, sure but it shouldn’t be a trade for trade thing. His moves working as intended and him getting something nerfed shouldn’t be dependent on each other.

Regarding balance, it’s important to remember that Smash is not designed only around 1v1, no items only 5-9 out of a ton of stages allowed and as such tournament results aren’t the only thing the balance team looks at. If our only legal stage was the Bridge of Eldin, Little Mac would shine. If we only played on Palutena’s Temple with how percentage leads work without a stalling rule, ZSS and Sonic would be broken as you’d never be able to catch them once they get a percentage lead.

The point is the arbitrary way that competitive players have altered the base game to fit our sensibilities has a major impact on how characters, some who are perfectly fine outside of those alterations, underperform in them. This has to be accounted for when making balance changes as unfortunate as it is for Ganondorf players that’s just the reality of how we have taken a game not designed purely as a 1v1 non random competitive fighter and altered it as one. I think in cases like Ganondorf or Mac they need to be re-designed as characters so they work better outside of constrictive environments.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Speaking on non-working multi-hits: Fix Zelda's nAir and fSmash.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Firox]

I wouldn’t ever call making moves work as intended a waste, designing something, knowing it doesn’t work as it was intended to work and then just ignoring it is an awful design philosophy. Sure Pikachu is a good character but that doesn’t mean his moves shouldn’t work as designed. I personally dislike how smash has interpreted Sonic greatly but I still don’t have a problem with them trying to fix his up air so it behaves as they intended for it to behave. Now I can understand sentiments that Pikachu didn’t have anything tuned down, sure but it shouldn’t be a trade for trade thing. His moves working as intended and him getting something nerfed should be mutually exclusive.

Regarding balance, it’s important to remember that Smash is not designed only around 1v1, no items only 5-9 out of a ton of stages allowed and as such tournament results aren’t the only thing the balance team looks at. If our only legal stage was the Bridge of Eldin, Little Mac would shine. If we only played on Palutena’s Temple with how percentage leads work without a stalling rule, ZSS and Sonic would be broken as you’d never be able to catch them once they get a percentage lead.

The point is the arbitrary way that competitive players have altered the base game to fit our sensibilities has a major impact on how characters, some who are perfectly fine outside of those alterations, underperform in them. This has to be accounted for when making balance changes as unfortunate as it is for Ganondorf players that’s just the reality of how we have taken a game not designed purely as a 1v1 non random competitive fighter and altered it as one. I think in cases like Ganondorf or Mac they need to be re-designed as characters so they work better outside of constrictive environments.

Firstly, while I agree with your point about broken moves, there are still plenty of other characters with broken moves that still aren't fixed. Hell, I still have people falling out of the second hit of Greninja's up smash, but I'd be totally surprised if it ever gets addressed. It's not so much that fixing bugs is a waste, but more of a general complaint as to the seemingly arbitrary nature of who gets fixes.

As for balancing, you have a good point that the fanbase's perception of balancing for 1v1 is relatively narrow, however, from a logical standpoint, what other metric could you possibly use in a competitive sense? Granted, Smash is basically more of a party game than a competitive fighter, but if one were to completely surrender to that logic, why balance anything at all? Why not just accept Sakurai's Brawl mentality and simply reject the notion of competitive Smash altogether? I suppose there's no cut and dry answer to that, but there are lots of characters that aren't fundamentally flawed like Mac that could do a lot with relatively smaller buffs. I'm just curious what the dev team's rationale is in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I was wondering about in 9.0.0 patch. I am not sgisnr his up-air being fixed to actullay fuction as it should. But I wondered why they ga e him additional buffs while not at least addressing the big elephants in the room "or wifi"with the hedgehog.

I rhink the best situation was to do with in 8.0.0 where he as..more normalized. Yeah the joke was that he was "nair the character" since that one move seemed to be his entire gameplan ..or at least his most optimal gameplan. So yeah they toned down nair but buffed many of his other moves in an attempt to give him say , more options players de would be worth using .

I do not see why the balance team cannot at least try doing something similar with Sonic

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Firstly, while I agree with your point about broken moves, there are still plenty of other characters with broken moves that still aren't fixed. Hell, I still have people falling out of the second hit of Greninja's up smash, but I'd be totally surprised if it ever gets addressed. It's not so much that fixing bugs is a waste, but more of a general complaint as to the seemingly arbitrary nature of who gets fixes.

As for balancing, you have a good point that the fanbase's perception of balancing for 1v1 is relatively narrow, however, from a logical standpoint, what other metric could you possibly use in a competitive sense? Granted, Smash is basically more of a party game than a competitive fighter, but if one were to completely surrender to that logic, why balance anything at all? Why not just accept Sakurai's Brawl mentality and simply reject the notion of competitive Smash altogether? I suppose there's no cut and dry answer to that, but there are lots of characters that aren't fundamentally flawed like Mac that could do a lot with relatively smaller buffs. I'm just curious what the dev team's rationale is in the grand scheme of things.

Really it just comes down to time, caution and whatever internal metrics they use.

It takes time to go over whatever data metrics the balance team is using when reviewing character performance. (If I had to guess online winrates (this also would include online FFAs) and some community feedback). Then make
the determination that this change would improve the character in some way, then actually implementing the change, and finally playtesting and quality assurance (that the change didn’t break something).

Then you have with a few exceptions the overall more cautious approach the developers have taken to balance updates in this game compared to Smash 4 which we all know how that game ended. We still have what four DLC characters left to be released? That means we have at minimum four balance patches (minimum doesn’t mean we can’t get changes in between characters or after DLC support has ended.) So the developers still have plenty of opportunities to address characters further who need it. There isn’t like a set deadline that all buffs must be submitted by otherwise the character will never get them, not yet atleast.

Really I would just advise patience, it’s a post release team that’s working on the game at this point so it’s naturally going to be a smaller team and so they aren’t going to get to everything nor are aware of all the issues still plaguing characters. They directly buffed Ness’ dash attack for example but characters can still fall out of the third hit like before, so they don’t notice everything even when directly working on a character.

Also even FFA as chaotic and random as they are still impacted by character balance. For a recent example while the Jr. side b armor buff helps him out more in a competitive 1v1 environment I’m sure he’s also appreciative of that change in FFA as well as he can plow through more hitboxes that are flying around everywhere in that environment letting him use the move more effectively. No body wants a broken mess of a game even causal players. Casual players might not understand why PKF isn’t a broken move but they definitely would understand why making Ganondorf’s kill 20% earlier on all his moves wouldn’t feel right.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Pretty sure it's entirely a matter of her actually being poor before 4.0.0, and her being so rarely played as a psuedo-echo zoner that many people have not updated their opinions to reflect either those changes nor 7.0.0's.

Release Isabelle was... pretty bad. Lloid Trap basically didn't work except for ledge coverage in most matchups, Fishing Rod had very questionable numbers, her non-slingshot aerials were all underwhelming, Jab was unsafe and led to nothing, u-smash had no use, even her roll was weirdly bad.

She was basically Villager, who dubiously traded Lloid Rocket and Timber for a pinch of airspeed, in a game where everyone was faster and more capable of dealing with zoners.

But now she's vastly better. Lloid Trap is reliable and frankly a really good move. Fishing Rod is risky but has a variety of compelling and rewarding use cases and synergize with the rest of her moveset. Nair, uair, and dair are all solid and lead to good stuff. Dash attack is faster, u-tilt is good and true combos into lots of things, u-smash has some actual applications, jab is amazing... Slingshot supported by Pocket and f-smash was always an okay foundation for the character, but nothing else worked. And well, now it does.

Honestly, there's nothing really wrong with Isabelle anymore. Even if she is underpowered when the chips are counted, everything works. The only way to improve her would be fairly arbitrary number increases. (The most extreme case would probably be grab buffs.)

I will say, that I am very impressed in the patches, with how they treated . I thought that she would be forgotten forever in the devs minds when they patch the game. Now there is a legitimate reason to use Isabelle instead of sometimes. Even after Villy got most of his issues fixed/major buffs in 8.0. Not saying that Isabelle is better than Villager, but at least now I'm not playing a poor man's version of VIlly anymore unlike and.

 

[The_Bookworm]

GOML North American Open: Northeast USA

1st: Marss
2nd: Pokelam
3rd: LeoN
4th: Myles
5th: Gen
5th: Sharp
7th: IcyMist
7th: 9superpie


That wraps up the qualifiers of the GOML North American Open series. We are moving on to the Finale, which is taking place at November 7th.
Here is each of the qualifiers winners.

East Canada (229 Entrants - August 29th-30th): Riddles
Mexico (231 Entrants - September 5th-6th): Sparg0
South USA (101 Entrants - September 12th-13th): Grayson
West Canada (84 Entrants - September 19th-20th): Ouch!?
Southeast USA (173 Entrants - September 26th-27th): ESAM
Midwest USA (195 Entrants - October 3rd-4th): Ned
West USA (216 Entrants - October 10th-11th): BestNess
Northeast USA (264 Entrants - October 17th-18th): Marss

 

[KirbySquad101]

I do find it kind of weird that everyone is so worked up about Pika's FAir getting changed that there's practically been zero talk about Wario - who I would argue is a bigger threat overall - getting his Corkscrew fixed. Keep in mind, I wouldn't want either character nerfed because of it, but it makes me wonder if everyone would still be up in arms about the whole thing if Pika didn't get changed at all this patch.

I actually think having their USmashes connect properly on platformed characters is by far the biggest change we got this patch in terms of "fixes" (not unless you include IC's changes to Nana anyway).

 

[Frihetsanka]

I do find it kind of weird that everyone is so worked up about Pika's FAir getting changed that there's practically been zero talk about Wario - who I would argue is a bigger threat overall - getting his Corkscrew fixed. Keep in mind, I wouldn't want either character nerfed because of it, but it makes me wonder if everyone would still be up in arms about the whole thing if Pika didn't get changed at all this patch.

I think it's simply because most people probably believe that Pikachu is better than Wario, so Wario getting buffed is not as controversial. Furthermore, Pika's fair buff sounds more significant than Wario's up-B buff, at least on paper, but I'm no expert on Wario. How much of a difference will the Wario buff make?

 

[Wunderwaft]

I think it's simply because most people probably believe that Pikachu is better than Wario, so Wario getting buffed is not as controversial. Furthermore, Pika's fair buff sounds more significant than Wario's up-B buff, at least on paper, but I'm no expert on Wario. How much of a difference will the Wario buff make?

Up B OOS was an almost worthless option before because people would often fall out of it if you angled it, problem is if you don't angle the move then it is more likely to whiff. Opponents were more likely to fall out of the final hit of Up B if you angled it which made it a dysfunctional move. So in terms of how impactful it is Wario's Up B is finally fixed and is now a viable OOS option. That's about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

I know which leap is most ridiculous: Condescendingly comparing the slight tweaking of digital information with the adoption of a parentless human child.

You do realize that it's possible to make a point without sounding like a pompous hypocrite, right?

First, I want to be clear that this is crossing a line into personal attacks and isn't being moderated only because it's crucial that moderation never be viewed as personally punitive. (This is one of the best-behaved threads/sub-forum on this board, and I'd prefer to keep that status quo.)


On the subject of extreme analogies, they are just that. It's a tactic I employ often, though am mindful of how they risk escalating the debate.

A few pages ago, I drew a comparison between competitive players whining about there being a single items-on tournament and white people complaining about Black History Month. These things are, obviously, not equivalent. They are not in the same ballpark of importance. The point is not to put them side by side in order to imply such (which is obviously false), nor is it to imply that anyone complaining about an items-on tournament might as well be racist. (Which is obviously insane)

The point of an extreme comparison is to shock people; to jolt them into recognizing a logical fallacy that they probably recognize when it's on a different scale. This goes both ways--if you have a white person who can't see why criticizing Black History Month is a bad look, you might give them an extremely small example, like a kid who is complaining about Mother's Day and Father's Day. ("When's Kids Day???")

Of course we should fix potholes in front of the bank. Of course Pikachu bugs should be fixed.

It would be one thing to complain about say Pit fair not being fixed while other character moves, like Pikachu fair, were fixed. If they fix potholes in front of the bank and mall but not your business, by all means, call city hall. But there's a difference between being mad because your pothole isn't filled in, and being mad that their pothole was. (This distinction is historically the conceptual basis of "envy" vs. merely desiring something.) Making good the enemy of perfect criminalizes iteration, which is the only form balance changes take.


There's a meta-pattern under all of this, which is why I spend an embarassing amount of time as a 32-year old guy (with lots of work to do) talking about a children's video game. It doesn't matter if I or anyone else convince people that no, obviously Pikachu isn't top 3 and Doc isn't bottom 3. People on the internet being wrong about how good a video game character is or isn't doesn't matter, that's not the "payload."

Trivial things people are nonetheless very passionate and thoughtful about are practice for all the things in life that will matter. In your life, you will have lots of circumstances where people are saying different things, and you will have to look past your priors and into data to find what is the turth.

There will be people on the right telling you that climate change is made up, and you will need the ability to look at diverse sources of data and see through that. And there will be people on the left telling you that MMT proves government deficits and spending have no impact on inflation, and you will need to be capable of recognizing the authority of economists telling you this is insane. You will find yourself in a world of pyramid schemes, anti-vax sentiment, and propaganda against everything from Chick-fil-a to nuclear energy.

Someone who can defer to OrionRank or usage numbers over Twitter is less likely to be one of the people who took it as gospel that there was a 99.8% chance Clinton would win in 2016 instead of looking at actual polls and models. Someone who can see that Marth's data is an artifact of Lucina's performance is less likely to tricked into a bad investment or fake medicine because stats show a real thing as "no different." And someone who can note the confounding context of Mac's result numbers is less likely to fall for racist presentations of crime stats that are 100% true but tell 1% of the whole story.


I apologize for making one-line responses that sounded crass. I despise the cold, and the first week of incoming winter weather always puts me in a really foul mood. Forgive my cold-hands johns, and let's get back to speculating what results will look like when north american civilization resumes.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Interesting video by Dabuz teaching various block set-ups and how useful they are in neutral. The two things that caught my interest most were placing TNT near the blocks as another measure to endanger opponents approaches (though this strategy may not be that useful against characters with good projectiles) and using blocks as a way to catch people with aerial dtilt.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

One 5hing that just came to me about MU's with Steve. What about characters who can potentially recover to the opposite end of the stage from below? Such examples being and a few others doing on the stage length. That can basically negate one of Steve's major general advantages..and he does not have the mobilty trry and chase them down at th opposite ledge.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I was watching Nintendo Unity's glitch showcase video about Steve, link here.
These glitches are usually restricted to casual play, or very situational, non-important incidents that could happen in a real match.

However, the first glitch they show is pretty relevant.
Apparently, when loses a stock, he is able to freely move through Steve's blocks like they are intangible. This is permanent effect throughout the rest of the match, and it is simply triggered by simply losing a stock.
As a matter of fact, when you trigger this glitch in training mode and then reset, the glitch still persists.

I am personally surprised that people (including myself) hasn't really noticed or talked about this glitch at all.
Then again, barely anyone plays Meta Knight in this game.

 

[meleebrawler]

One 5hing that just came to me about MU's with Steve. What about characters who can potentially recover to the opposite end of the stage from below? Such examples being and a few others doing on the stage length. That can basically negate one of Steve's major general advantages..and he does not have the mobilty trry and chase them down at th opposite ledge.

Why does Steve need to run from one end of the stage to the other when well-placed TNT can let cover most options from the center?

 

[The_Bookworm]

A new Ver. 9.0.1 of Super #SmashBrosUltimate will arrive tomorrow! This update will include fighter adjustments, meaning replay data from previous versions will be incompatible. Convert your replays by going to Vault -> Replays -> Replay Data -> Convert to Video, before updating. pic.twitter.com/vC4LmiJmp8

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) October 21, 2020

We are just about to receive update 9.0.1 tomorrow.
This patch very likely exists to fix some of the numerous glitches Steve has.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Speaking on non-working multi-hits: Fix Zelda's nAir and fSmash.

Ok, thanks.

Luigi down-b and dash attack multihits are awful too, probably some of the worst multihits in the game in terms of consistency. Up-smash also gets affected by the jostle changes from 4 to Ult and sometimes won't hit when it should, and up-b gets screwed by z-axis shenanigans + the previously mentioned jostle changes + the fact that the hitbox is pitifully small.

Listing these things out like this, it's actually confusing why moves like Pikachu's f-air, a move that already worked fine, are being changed to be more consistent when characters like Luigi have way more consistency issues on specific moves than Pika does.

 

[ARISTOS]

Luigi down-b and dash attack multihits are awful too, probably some of the worst multihits in the game in terms of consistency. Up-smash also gets affected by the jostle changes from 4 to Ult and sometimes won't hit when it should, and up-b gets screwed by z-axis shenanigans + the previously mentioned jostle changes + the fact that the hitbox is pitifully small.

Listing these things out like this, it's actually confusing why moves like Pikachu's f-air, a move that already worked fine, are being changed to be more consistent when characters like Luigi have way more consistency issues on specific moves than Pika does.

I don't think there's any specific rhyme or reason to consistency fixes other than they push out fixes in batches aka it was time to push a Pikachu fix.

I don't know why this is such a big deal lol, there is at minimum another years worth of patches.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I don't think there's any specific rhyme or reason to consistency fixes other than they push out fixes in batches aka it was time to push a Pikachu fix.

I don't know why this is such a big deal lol, there is at minimum another years worth of patches.

Yeah, the lack of consistency the balance team has when it comes to handing these changes out and who they hand them out to makes me wonder if they'll every actually fix moves on characters like Luigi or DK who clearly have some very noticeable issues when it comes to moves not connecting properly, their lack of safety on hit, and/or hitboxes not functioning properly.

It just seems strange that the balance team seemingly fixes things like this randomly. It's just a roll of the dice as to whether a character that has legitimate issues with how some moves function will have their moves fixed or if a character who has a move with minimal issues (Pikachu f-air) will get that move fixed instead.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Yeah, the lack of consistency the balance team has when it comes to handing these changes out and who they hand them out to makes me wonder if they'll every actually fix moves on characters like Luigi or DK who clearly have some very noticeable issues when it comes to moves not connecting properly, their lack of safety on hit, and/or hitboxes not functioning properly.

It just seems strange that the balance team seemingly fixes things like this randomly. It's just a roll of the dice as to whether a character that has legitimate issues with how some moves function will have their moves fixed or if a character who has a move with minimal issues (Pikachu f-air) will get that move fixed instead.

Ganondorf's nair also needs a fix. As does his dash attack, it's not a multihit issue but an issue of the move just not having a hitbox at all on the late part.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I don't think there's any specific rhyme or reason to consistency fixes other than they push out fixes in batches aka it was time to push a Pikachu fix.

I don't know why this is such a big deal lol, there is at minimum another years worth of patches.

I think it's better to fix lesser good characters first and then once they're done you can start fixing the actual "good" characters.
Is it a big deal? No. I don't think it is.
Is it confusing? Yes.

 

[SwagGuy99]

LeoN made a Bowser matchup chart on stream last night and I don't know if this is just me thinking this, but it seems somewhat pessimistic.

Edit:

Characters I think he's overrating in the matchup: (maybe )

Characters I think he's underrating in the matchup:

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Ganondorf's nair also needs a fix. As does his dash attack, it's not a multihit issue but an issue of the move just not having a hitbox at all on the late part.

Agree on Nair, and Dash Attack does have a late hit, it's just tiny, so it'd help if it didn't shrink:

 

[bc1910]

LeoN made a Bowser matchup chart on stream last night and I don't know if this is just me thinking this, but it seems somewhat pessimistic.

I don't agree with Greninja being one of Bowser's worst MUs, though it's a common notion. Greninja's advantage state on Bowser is incredibly strong, no one is going to argue this. However, neutral isn't that simple to navigate due to Bowser's sheer size and the fact that Greninja literally can't touch Bowser's shield with anything except Nair (-3 on shield) or a very well spaced Fair (-6 on shield). Greninja will eat an Up B out of shield (hits on f6) for literally anything else and even Nair forces Greninja into shield to avoid it, giving Bowser a 50/50 Up B/grab out of shield mixup. Bowser's ledge trapping on Greninja is also incredibly strong, as simply holding shield near the ledge allows Bowser a Smash 4-esque reactionary mixup on Greninja where he can Up B every getup option except jump, which he can cover with Fair.

I'd agree with the MU being +1 for Greninja overall (which I think is what Leon had it as in his previous MU chart so he must have downgraded it since), but I don't see how it could conceivably be as bad as Pikachu, Peach or G&W. Leon has also beaten Venia several times.

 

[Lacrimosa]

LeoN made a Bowser matchup chart on stream last night and I don't know if this is just me thinking this, but it seems somewhat pessimistic.

Edit:

Characters I think he's overrating in the matchup: (maybe )

Characters I think he's underrating in the matchup:

Seems like LeoN now thinks that Zelda goes even with Bowser instead of her losing it according to his old MU chart.
I guess that's fair since both can blow each other up very quick. Very momentum-dependant MU.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Fun fact of the day: Corrin's down-air

LeoN sleeping on Corrin though, putting it down as "People overrate her because Cosmos is godlike". If anything, I'd say people underrate Corrin because she wasn't high tier until 8.0.0, she was just another mid tier back then. Now that she's actually good people have made up their mind due to her being lackluster before (and straight up bad on release, her recovery was really bad prior to 4.0.0). Both Cosmos and SHADIC believe Corrin beats Bowser, by the way.

Even if I do think LeoN underrates Corrin, that MU chart is not very good for Bowser at all. 18 -1 MUs and five "Cutsvene Tier" MUs, that's not good at all. Looking at the losing MUs I don't even think any of them are too unlikely... I guess Bowser is really overrated by the community?

 

[StrangeKitten]

Agree on Nair, and Dash Attack does have a late hit, it's just tiny, so it'd help if it didn't shrink:

Ah, so I was thinking about how the end of the move has no hitbox. Man, look at all those frames he's stuck helpless :/ Would help if it at least kept that late hit out longer. Or make it kill sooner if it's gonna be that committal.

I think -1 is a fair assessment of Luigi for the Bowser MU. The zero-to-deaths are strong for Luigi, but Bowser can get a lot off of his better range and Flame Breath. I can see Dedede as -1, though. Bowser weirdly struggles against Gordos

 

[NotLiquid]

I imagine Inkling is one of the MUs Leon is probably more confident in his placement of. I've said this previously but he has a wealth of MU experience against that particular character, and despite Bowser not having to deal with one of Inkling's best tools I largely agree that it swings towards a loss given his susceptibility to ledge traps, combos, easy-to-edgeguard large frame, and Inkling's Splattershot making up for lack of rapid jab. I more or less feel the same about Min Min.

I don't have enough experience with Marth but I imagine the Bowser MU is one he enjoys - or at least doesn't have too discernible of a difference with his superior echo - by virtue of not having to deal as much with sourspots.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Agree on Nair, and Dash Attack does have a late hit, it's just tiny, so it'd help if it didn't shrink:

If they completely fix the active frames and the hitbox, it would be really good. I like using the move, but I hate these problems.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I imagine Inkling is one of the MUs Leon is probably more confident in his placement of. I've said this previously but he has a wealth of MU experience against that particular character, and despite Bowser not having to deal with one of Inkling's best tools I largely agree that it swings towards a loss given his susceptibility to ledge traps, combos, easy-to-edgeguard large frame, and Inkling's Splattershot making up for lack of rapid jab. I more or less feel the same about Min Min.

I don't have enough experience with Marth but I imagine the Bowser MU is one he enjoys - or at least doesn't have too discernible of a difference with his superior echo - by virtue of not having to deal as much with sourspots.

Remember around a year and a half ago when LeoN beating Cosmos was the talk of the town and we were just realizing that Bowser is pretty good? And they've played at least a couple times since, which resulted in Cosmos winning iirc. Remember how Cosmos was the best Inkling back then, way before covid and the switch to Corrin? Not just reminding you, NotLiquid, but this whole thread in general. I'd say, based on how often LeoN fought Cosmos, he has a very good grasp on the MU indeed.

 

[Wigglerman]

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I don't think I've really seen much regarding how Tsu feels about Lucario as a character in Ultimate other than this, to be honest.

As a casual user of the Koopa Kids, everything feels good though the koopa cart armor change, while seemingly big, doesn't help all that much. You will almost ALWAYS get hit out of it. I feel like it was better in Smash 4. The one buff I wish they would get is making their cannon ball better. Charge faster or less lag for using it would be nice.

 

[The_Bookworm]

As a casual user of the Koopa Kids, everything feels good though the koopa cart armor change, while seemingly big, doesn't help all that much. You will almost ALWAYS get hit out of it. I feel like it was better in Smash 4. The one buff I wish they would get is making their cannon ball better. Charge faster or less lag for using it would be nice.

's side B armor was 9%.
's side B armor pre-patch was 6%, but post-patch is ~10.2%.

So his side B armor used to be better in SSB4, but it is now better than it was in SSB4.
Maybe it doesn't feel that big due to the 1v1 multipliers added in Ultimate.

 

[Arthur97]

's side B armor was 9%.
's side B armor pre-patch was 6%, but post-patch is ~10.2%.

So his side B armor used to be better in SSB4, but it is now better than it was in SSB4.
Maybe it doesn't feel that big due to the 1v1 multipliers added in Ultimate.

Isn't that multiplier one of the last things applied though? Would it actually affect the armor for a single hit?

 

[Wigglerman]

's side B armor was 9%.
's side B armor pre-patch was 6%, but post-patch is ~10.2%.

So his side B armor used to be better in SSB4, but it is now better than it was in SSB4.
Maybe it doesn't feel that big due to the 1v1 multipliers added in Ultimate.

Very well could be the case. I just feel like I can't use it as a good burst option since the most common options for most characters just outright beat it (Most Nairs even just slap the Koppa's right out of the move). A shame really.

 

[Maplejr.]

Very well could be the case. I just feel like I can't use it as a good burst option since the most common options for most characters just outright beat it (Most Nairs even just slap the Koppa's right out of the move). A shame really.

Imo, It's main benefit comes from the increased amount of projectiles he can tank (ex: he can tank 's power wave now), making it a useful punish option when they throw them out. To me, that's when it's most useful. It can also be used to tank some multihit uAirs in juggle situations, like .