Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Minix0]

Thinkaman already gave a very long response to this but I wanted to add in my thoughts because I was also on the "Lucario is at least bottom 3" train pre-patch.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that there's a pretty big difference between characters like Ganondorf and Little Mac and Lucario. Ganon and Mac have extreme strengths. Ganon does like a billion damage on everything he does and his smash attacks are extremely scary. Mac has actually insane frame data and tons of armor everywhere. Of course, they also have extreme weaknesses that most of the cast can exploit fairly easily. However, the fact that they have such immense power in their kit, even balanced out by weakness, gives them at least a little room for optimism. I don't dispute that these characters are still well-towards the bottom of the roster, but they at least have a little upset or doubles potential if nothing else.

When we come to a character like Lucario (or Isabelle, I was also on the Isabelle hate train before she got her buffs), they don't have anywhere near this kind of explosive power, instead they're kind of mediocre at best and still have a lot of flaws. Like Lucario for example has very bad frame data and just no real standout tools in his kit. With high aura, he's maybe an average character, but he only gets to be this character for a small portion of the game, and every time any member of the rest of the cast gets buffs it's an implicit nerf for him since it means he dies faster. Unlike Mac and Ganon, who might have some use in doubles, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever pick Lucario. This is why I tend to put the characters who just seem mediocre and uninspiring lower than those who have strengths but are terribly flawed.

If you want more proof that it's better to be a flawed but explosive character than a mediocre one, just look at Smash 4, because Lucario was an explosive character in that game. At high aura, he had Ganon-level power if not moreso. Not surprisingly, he was a vastly better character in that game, generally considered to be around upper mid-tier, and almost everyone was terrified to fight him. No amount of buffs that he has gotten in Ult have even come close to making up for the loss of Side B killing you at 50%. Even though I don't think this design was really healthy for the game, I think he needs to get at least a little bit of that power back. Maybe command grab could kill around 80 at high aura instead of its current 120 or so. He needs the fear that that move causes to help the rest of his kit work.

See, this is a well made response and I understand your position, I just can't say I agree with it. I feel like you're underestimating just how detrimental Ganon and Mac's flaws are.

Lucario definitely sucks, there's no getting around it. His advantage is hilariously bad. He feels like he plays like Shiek at low percents but doesn't have the frame data for it, so you're forced to rely on losing to get kill power, just to rely on aura gimmicks or a hard call out with a smash attack. Lame.

I'd rather have a Shiek like character who gets heavy like strength at high percents at the cost of not being very heavy, as opposed to a character designed to only function at 130%. Shout outs to Smash 4 for ruining another character design?

I miss Brawl Lucario

 

[StrangeKitten]

Man, is getting nerfed every single patch. I am not talking about them changing the monkey himself like nerfing his bair or something, I mean every time a new character is added, he always gets screwed over by them.
They either combo the hell out of him to death:, and Steve.
Zone him out:, , and
Or they have a zero to death:

And on top of all of this, they are refusing to fix most of his weaknesses that are detrimental to his viability; Moves being unsafe on hit at low percents, nerfed recovery from smash 4, etc.

For what it's worth, the zero to death is very situational. MkLeo recently tried to get it in a set vs ChunkyKong, and couldn't. Still though, if Byleth didn't have the zero to death, they'd just go into the "zone him out" category anyway. Speaking of ChunkyKong, he's been singlehandedly giving me some renewed faith in DK. I had no idea down B to up smash or, a little later, up air were true kill confirms! Has me feeling like DK could be one of the better low tiers, maybe even lower mid. Though it is online - I'd really like to see some good offline DK once that's finally feasible again.

Still, I'm holding out hope for more buffs. All he needs is safety-on-hit at low% fixed for some of his moves, and more verticality to his recovery. I think that's reasonable, and it would hardly make DK overpowered. He probably wouldn't rise much, even. But it would be like K Rool, where even though he didn't make massive leaps after getting buffed, he at least functioned way better.

 

[Lacrimosa]

For what it's worth, the zero to death is very situational. MkLeo recently tried to get it in a set vs ChunkyKong, and couldn't. Still though, if Byleth didn't have the zero to death, they'd just go into the "zone him out" category anyway. Speaking of ChunkyKong, he's been singlehandedly giving me some renewed faith in DK. I had no idea down B to up smash or, a little later, up air were true kill confirms! Has me feeling like DK could be one of the better low tiers, maybe even lower mid. Though it is online - I'd really like to see some good offline DK once that's finally feasible again.

Still, I'm holding out hope for more buffs. All he needs is safety-on-hit at low% fixed for some of his moves, and more verticality to his recovery. I think that's reasonable, and it would hardly make DK overpowered. He probably wouldn't rise much, even. But it would be like K Rool, where even though he didn't make massive leaps after getting buffed, he at least functioned way better.

It's alone the fact that it is possible.
You, as ChunkyKong have to play in a certain way and that can be exploited. You don't have to go for the option but the fact that it's threatening is a huge detriment.

 

[Frihetsanka]

TL;DW:

Spoiler

Pikachu #1, according to Larry Lurr.

 

[DougEfresh]

Lucario definitely sucks, there's no getting around it. His advantage is hilariously bad. He feels like he plays like Shiek at low percents but doesn't have the frame data for it, so you're forced to rely on losing to get kill power, just to rely on aura gimmicks or a hard call out with a smash attack. Lame.

I'd rather have a Shiek like character who gets heavy like strength at high percents at the cost of not being very heavy, as opposed to a character designed to only function at 130%. Shout outs to Smash 4 for ruining another character design?

I miss Brawl Lucario

I know you were responding to someone else and my intention isn't to drudge up another conversation around Lucario (since I've made a number of posts about him lately with the new patch changes), but I just wanted to take a moment to comment on this.

I get what you're trying to say, and his advantage low percents is definitely pretty bad compared to the majority of characters in this game, but low aura actually functions better in Ultimate compared to the previous two games as he has a low percent combo game to rack up damage until mid percents. Ik when I play the character, I'm totally fine having to reset neutral several times with low damage output until I'm at mid percents (50+) to start doing a bit more damage because it means I actually have to rely less on aura to close out stocks when they're already at 80+ when I'm still at very low % for a time. Allowing yourself to get hit haphazardly "until you get aura" is definitely a terrible idea in this game, but it's what people always think you have to do because it's a tendency of players to focus only on what he can do with aura.

Aura does obviously work in that Lucario gets stronger with higher percents, but players at all levels (but especially top players from what I find) overestimate how awful he is at low percents (seriously, how long does anyone stay at 0% in Ultimate?), and how much percent/aura Lucario actually needs to do anything "significant," which really only requires him to be at 30-40% to kill at reasonable percents with smash attacks (and if you read my long post about his 9.0 changes a few pages back, you'd have seen that he's actually capable of being more consistent across stocks in a variety of ways to be less "gimmicky") and around 80+ to have solid kill power and damage output in general with most of his moves, especially with the slight aura scaling buff.

To be clear, I main Lucario and even I'm not going to go out on a limb to say that he's good now, and before 9.0, I even would've largely agreed with your assessment here, but his punish game is potentially going to be much more versatile and explosive now that his "advantage" will likely end up being pretty serviceable in most situations. Misinformation and propaganda about is so pervasive because he's niche and misunderstood that most people just regurgitate the same ideas that top players like to spout out about him (looking at you, ESAM) and it's a pet peeve of mine that I occasionally have to call out (respectfully, of course). With that being said, thanks for hearing me out during this rant!

 

[FruitLoop]

https://twitter.com/es_pixelpixel/status/1319545681879527426?s=21

So the devs decided to nerf gordo AGAIN by reducing its shieldstun and point blank gordo is no longer safe anymore in 9.0.1. Why is it that every patch besides 8.0.0 DDD literally gets either indirectly nerfed via engine changes or just nerfed for no reason? Ig hes not a contender for the worst char in the game anymore but hes barely above that level anyways.

 

[SKX31]

's side B armor was 9%.
's side B armor pre-patch was 6%, but post-patch is ~10.2%.

So his side B armor used to be better in SSB4, but it is now better than it was in SSB4.
Maybe it doesn't feel that big due to the 1v1 multipliers added in Ultimate.

Just for funsies (and because Sakurai and co. have FFAs in mind too) I looked up the Mr. Saturn damage... and yeah, pre-patch it could break the Kart Dash armor since it deals 7-8 %. Maybe it can tank a couple more turnip variants too?

It does help in the Peach match up somewhat (can it tank more multi hits from Down Air / Up Air / Dash Attack now?), although I'm not entirely sure if Bowser Jr really fares well at all against Peach to begin with. It does sound like Jr.'s a prime target of Peach's float shenaningas due to how his damage calcs work.

https://twitter.com/es_pixelpixel/status/1319545681879527426?s=21

So the devs decided to nerf gordo AGAIN by reducing its shieldstun and point blank gordo is no longer safe anymore in 9.0.1. Why is it that every patch besides 8.0.0 DDD literally gets either indirectly nerfed via engine changes or just nerfed for no reason? Ig hes not a contender for the worst char in the game anymore but hes barely above that level anyways.

I can only guess that's due to the Gordo (and the hammer swing) being a casual-killer of sorts? That's the only angle I can think of that's feasible - there are a lot of casuals who don't know how to deal with Gordos period.

Not that I really agree with the reasoning (it's needlessly limiting to nerf like that), but the way the devs have patched and updated it might be worth taking into account. It doesn't help that they've never given out the reasons why changes are made (unlike Riot) nor exact value changes (unlike Riot / Valve).

 

[StrangeKitten]

Me: So Dedede would become a much better character if Gordos weren't stopped by everything. I think they should go through moves that do less than ten---
Nintendo: Better nerf Dedede!

 

[FruitLoop]

Just for funsies (and because Sakurai and co. have FFAs in mind too) I looked up the Mr. Saturn damage... and yeah, pre-patch it could break the Kart Dash armor since it deals 7-8 %. Maybe it can tank a couple more turnip variants too?

It does help in the Peach match up somewhat (can it tank more multi hits from Down Air / Up Air / Dash Attack now?), although I'm not entirely sure if Bowser Jr really fares well at all against Peach to begin with. It does sound like Jr.'s a prime target of Peach's float shenaningas due to how his damage calcs work.



I can only guess that's due to the Gordo (and the hammer swing) being a casual-killer of sorts? That's the only angle I can think of that's feasible - there are a lot of casuals who don't know how to deal with Gordos period.

Not that I really agree with the reasoning (it's needlessly limiting to nerf like that), but the way the devs have patched and updated it might be worth taking into account. It doesn't help that they've never given out the reasons why changes are made (unlike Riot) nor exact value changes (unlike Riot / Valve).

I digged through some research and it was an indirect engine change from how multiple hitboxes with a projectile works on shield. Shieldstun was reduced by 3 making point blank gordo turn from -16 to -19 with less shield knockback iirc. This lessened shield knockback means that if DDD does a point blank gordo purposefully then he can finally get shield grabbed which is quite a noticeable change.

It's still so sad how gordo is DDD's main gimmick when its a frame 29 spikey ball thats about as laggy as simon's axe except you can send it back WHILE THE MOVE DOES LESS SHIELD DAMAGE THAN MARIO'S FIRE BALL WITH TWICE THE LAG!!!!! MARIO'S FIRE BALL! AND BY A NOTICEABLE AMOUNT TOO! WHY???

And despite how bad Gordos are on shield they still decided to keep indirectly nerfing the move to do basically nothing vs shields when shielding is like THE counterplay to D3. DDD is certainly a contender for bottom 5 still (even if i put him RIGHT outside of there) but I don't think we're ready for that talk yet.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Video showing all(?) currently known differences from 9.0.0 to 9.0.1.
For anyone wondering how certain changes look like.

(Nice thumbnail, thanks MVG)

 

[Nobie]

Zaki recently reached #1 on Elite Smash as Dedede. I wonder if that has any influence on Dedede nerfs.

Also, some Steve thoughts:

1) I increasingly feel that Steve is especially easy to land sweetspots against, but I'm not sure if it's just placebo or what. Has anyone else had this feeling?

2) It's kind of obvious, but Minecart gets a noticeable bump online because there's more of an anticipation factor in general (you have to predict a roll rather than react to it, for example), and Minecart really poops on most preemptive actions. There's just more time to throw out a proper disjointed hitbox to challenge it offline. As a Mewtwo, the fact that Minecart beats baby Shadow Ball but loses to ftilt drives this home for me.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Zaki recently reached #1 on Elite Smash as Dedede. I wonder if that has any influence on Dedede nerfs.

Also, some Steve thoughts:

1) I increasingly feel that Steve is especially easy to land sweetspots against, but I'm not sure if it's just placebo or what. Has anyone else had this feeling?

2) It's kind of obvious, but Minecart gets a noticeable bump online because there's more of an anticipation factor in general (you have to predict a roll rather than react to it, for example), and Minecart really poops on most preemptive actions. There's just more time to throw out a proper disjointed hitbox to challenge it offline. As a Mewtwo, the fact that Minecart beats baby Shadow Ball but loses to ftilt drives this home for me.

Oh lordy, I hope that's not why Dedede got nerfed. Kinda hoping it's a bug that'll end up getting fixed. Dedede is a character who most certainly does not need nerfs. The 8.0.0 buffs did very little to prevent him from being bad offline. At this point, I kinda feel like if someone wanted to play , they should just play instead. Kinda took Dedede's niche of being the super heavy who has projectiles, except K Rool's projectiles are better than Gordos.

And yeah, Minecart definitely doesn't seem as strong offline. It's still good, but CPUs get a healthy amount of opportunity to punish me if I pick a bad time to throw it out. I'd say Steve might be worse offline, but the faster pace and easier time reacting to things could be good for him. His combos might also work better offline, I'm not sure on that. (Probably also worth noting I'm still pretty bad with Steve. I do feel like I get kept in disadvantage a lot, even moreso than when I play Ganondorf. Part of that is probably me not being very good with Steve yet, part of that could be because his mobility is about as bad as Ganon's anyway, but lack of hurtbox shifting could be playing a role here too. He's kinda tall when compared to how characters scrunch their bodies when hit, even heavies)

 

[NotLiquid]

1) I increasingly feel that Steve is especially easy to land sweetspots against, but I'm not sure if it's just placebo or what. Has anyone else had this feeling?

I suspect it's a consequence of Steve having nothing that shifts his hurtbox (outside of a rather weak crouch/dtilt/dsmash). His visualization is a bit of a double-edged sword, despite the fact that it can be tough to anticipate attacks, he's a remarkably easy target to hit for being a medium-sized fighter.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Zaki recently reached #1 on Elite Smash as Dedede. I wonder if that has any influence on Dedede nerfs.

The Gordo shield damage nerf is from an indirect change introduced when Steve came to the picture (or maybe at 9.0.1, which was the patch this was realized).

And yeah, Minecart definitely doesn't seem as strong offline. It's still good, but CPUs get a healthy amount of opportunity to punish me if I pick a bad time to throw it out.

Lvl 9 CPUS have frame-perfect reaction timing, so they can dodge/avoid stuff frame-perfectly.
I would know.... I spent pretty much the entirety of my SSB4 career fighting against lvl 9 CPUs on the 3DS version.

As for Minecart as a whole, it is indeed easier to react to offline, for similar reasons to why other burst options (Sonic Spin Dash) is easier to react to.

 

[StrangeKitten]

The Gordo shield damage nerf is from an indirect change introduced when Steve came to the picture (or maybe at 9.0.1, which was the patch this was realized).



Lvl 9 CPUS have frame-perfect reaction timing, so they can dodge/avoid stuff frame-perfectly.
I would know.... I spent pretty much the entirety of my SSB4 career fighting against lvl 9 CPUs on the 3DS version.

As for Minecart as a whole, it is indeed easier to react to offline, for similar reasons to why other burst options (Sonic Spin Dash) is easier to react to.

Oh trust me, I am very aware of that. I feel like I play around it well for the most part. Feels more like it's my fault for throwing Minecart out at a predictable time tbh

 

[Rizen]

Oh lordy, I hope that's not why Dedede got nerfed. Kinda hoping it's a bug that'll end up getting fixed. Dedede is a character who most certainly does not need nerfs. The 8.0.0 buffs did very little to prevent him from being bad offline. At this point, I kinda feel like if someone wanted to play , they should just play instead. Kinda took Dedede's niche of being the super heavy who has projectiles, except K Rool's projectiles are better than Gordos.

And yeah, Minecart definitely doesn't seem as strong offline. It's still good, but CPUs get a healthy amount of opportunity to punish me if I pick a bad time to throw it out. I'd say Steve might be worse offline, but the faster pace and easier time reacting to things could be good for him. His combos might also work better offline, I'm not sure on that.

Hot take: 's now the 2nd best super heavyweight after of course. K.Rool was underrated to begin with and he's gotten very substantial buffs. His zoning's better with faster kannon and better crown armor, belly armor is much more spammable and shouldn't break unless you're being stupid with it, and Nair is now a great landing option that combos into things like jab. His gameplan actually works now. He already had good traits like a f4 jab and one of the best throw games in the game: At low %s Fthrow combos into DA and Uthrow deals 19.X% in training. He's going to get 20+% on you off every grab. At about 110% Dthrow buries and goes into a 50/50 where he can kill you with his f6 Usmash if you mash or Fsmash if you don't. At 140%ish Uthrow and Bthrow both kill or he can Dthrow>Utilt kill facing forward.He also has probably the best survival ability in the game, being the 2nd heaviest character with a much better recovery than Bowser.
I'm not saying he's anything higher than mid tier though. He still has glaring weaknesses of having the 2nd biggest hurtbox and poor coverage on his normal attacks. Utilt for example just hits in front and at a diagonal angle with blindspots above and behind KRool. He'd kill to have Bowser's Utilt and Fair.

If you want to see good K.Rool play, the ironically named Kirbykid used him to beat Leon's and Joker's to get 3rd at the most recent Juicebox tournament.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Hot take: 's now the 2nd best super heavyweight after of course. K.Rool was underrated to begin with and he's gotten very substantial buffs. His zoning's better with faster kannon and better crown armor, belly armor is much more spammable and shouldn't break unless you're being stupid with it, and Nair is now a great landing option that combos into things like jab. His gameplan actually works now. He already had good traits like a f4 jab and one of the best throw games in the game: At low %s Fthrow combos into DA and Uthrow deals 19.X% in training. He's going to get 20+% on you off every grab. At about 110% Dthrow buries and goes into a 50/50 where he can kill you with his f6 Usmash if you mash or Fsmash if you don't. At 140%ish Uthrow and Bthrow both kill or he can Dthrow>Utilt kill facing forward.He also has probably the best survival ability in the game, being the 2nd heaviest character with a much better recovery than Bowser.
I'm not saying he's anything higher than mid tier though. He still has glaring weaknesses of having the 2nd biggest hurtbox and poor coverage on his normal attacks. Utilt for example just hits in front and at a diagonal angle with blindspots above and behind KRool. He'd kill to have Bowser's Utilt and Fair.

If you want to see good K.Rool play, the ironically named Kirbykid used him to beat Leon's and Joker's to get 3rd at the most recent Juicebox tournament.

I watched the Kirbykid vs Leon set! Was very impressed with Kirbykid's K Rool, though I always am. At least quarantine can give us good K Rool footage!

I'd say Bowser has the better recovery between the two. Much faster, and protects all around him. K Rool's has the downside of traveling a lot slower and having very little protection. Sometimes going high as Bowser isn't the worst idea, since you'll knock opponents far enough away to not have to worry much about the endlag, so long as they have a decent amount of % on them. K Rool's has even more endlag, so he's always forced to go low. With the right projectile, such as Pikachu's t-jolt, you can get K Rool stuck in a loop of getting hit by the projectile over and over, for a ton of %. Bowser's recovery will just armor through things. Though, I'd say they're pretty close to equal anyway. They get the job done the vast majority of the time, only letting you down occasionally.

 

[Rizen]

I watched the Kirbykid vs Leon set! Was very impressed with Kirbykid's K Rool, though I always am. At least quarantine can give us good K Rool footage!

I'd say Bowser has the better recovery between the two. Much faster, and protects all around him. K Rool's has the downside of traveling a lot slower and having very little protection. Sometimes going high as Bowser isn't the worst idea, since you'll knock opponents far enough away to not have to worry much about the endlag, so long as they have a decent amount of % on them. K Rool's has even more endlag, so he's always forced to go low. With the right projectile, such as Pikachu's t-jolt, you can get K Rool stuck in a loop of getting hit by the projectile over and over, for a ton of %. Bowser's recovery will just armor through things. Though, I'd say they're pretty close to equal anyway. They get the job done the vast majority of the time, only letting you down occasionally.

I tested this on training. K.Rool's recovery goes both higher and farther than Bowser's. Bowser's upB can be beaten with pretty much any standard attack including sex kicks. It doesn't have very good protection although I do agree it is better against Pika's jolts. K.Rool's recovery is very susceptible to certain projectiles like TJolts, Vill's bowling ball, Mega's hard knuckle and Steve's anvil. Other than those it has pretty good protection if you FF Nair or airdodge to go low and upB up to the ledge. Neither are great but for most MUs I'd say K.Rool has the better recovery except vs the rats.

 

[Das Koopa]

People were so shaken up by Bayonetta (and Cloud to a lesser extent) that it seems the prevailing narratives on DLC are extremely polarized, especially after release. People seem to go head-on into top-tier or bust (bust being low/bottom.)

 

[Aaron1997]

VGBootCamp - Twitch

Headed by GimR & Aposl, VGBC is the Home of competitive Super Smash Bros! Video Game Boot Camp started in late 2008 when the Smash Community was much smaller. Through hard work & the support of the community we helped propel Smash into the scene it is today! Learn. Play. Win!

www.twitch.tv

Finally got a offline top level event in many many months

Ft. Zackray, Abadango, KEN, Kameme, Raito, Takara, Kept, Jagaimo, Nietono, Shogun, Tsu and Kishiru

 

[Ziodyne 21]

VGBootCamp - Twitch

Headed by GimR & Aposl, VGBC is the Home of competitive Super Smash Bros! Video Game Boot Camp started in late 2008 when the Smash Community was much smaller. Through hard work & the support of the community we helped propel Smash into the scene it is today! Learn. Play. Win!

www.twitch.tv

Finally got a offline top level event in many many months

Ft. Zackray, Abadango, KEN, Kameme, Raito, Takara, Kept, Jagaimo, Nietono, Shogun, Tsu and Kishiru

Just by looking at KEN play at this tournament I See the fix to Sonic's up-air has made the move more consistent. There still seems to be timrs where characters still fall out of it but it seems much more rare now

But he ended up losing 3-0 to Jagaimo partially due to unfortunate SD's in game 2 and 3..

 

[Minix0]

I know you were responding to someone else and my intention isn't to drudge up another conversation around Lucario (since I've made a number of posts about him lately with the new patch changes), but I just wanted to take a moment to comment on this.

I get what you're trying to say, and his advantage low percents is definitely pretty bad compared to the majority of characters in this game, but low aura actually functions better in Ultimate compared to the previous two games as he has a low percent combo game to rack up damage until mid percents. Ik when I play the character, I'm totally fine having to reset neutral several times with low damage output until I'm at mid percents (50+) to start doing a bit more damage because it means I actually have to rely less on aura to close out stocks when they're already at 80+ when I'm still at very low % for a time. Allowing yourself to get hit haphazardly "until you get aura" is definitely a terrible idea in this game, but it's what people always think you have to do because it's a tendency of players to focus only on what he can do with aura.

Aura does obviously work in that Lucario gets stronger with higher percents, but players at all levels (but especially top players from what I find) overestimate how awful he is at low percents (seriously, how long does anyone stay at 0% in Ultimate?), and how much percent/aura Lucario actually needs to do anything "significant," which really only requires him to be at 30-40% to kill at reasonable percents with smash attacks (and if you read my long post about his 9.0 changes a few pages back, you'd have seen that he's actually capable of being more consistent across stocks in a variety of ways to be less "gimmicky") and around 80+ to have solid kill power and damage output in general with most of his moves, especially with the slight aura scaling buff.

To be clear, I main Lucario and even I'm not going to go out on a limb to say that he's good now, and before 9.0, I even would've largely agreed with your assessment here, but his punish game is potentially going to be much more versatile and explosive now that his "advantage" will likely end up being pretty serviceable in most situations. Misinformation and propaganda about is so pervasive because he's niche and misunderstood that most people just regurgitate the same ideas that top players like to spout out about him (looking at you, ESAM) and it's a pet peeve of mine that I occasionally have to call out (respectfully, of course). With that being said, thanks for hearing me out during this rant!

Well I was never asserting that Lucario was the worst in the game, rather he was at least in pre patch mediocre. Which is why I started the conversation in the first place.

And like I said, he def has his strengths, but also his weaknesses. I pocket him and I really enjoy his low percent stuff, I just wish his frame data was better and/or priority of his moves were better to make better use of it. And I get people misunderstanding a character, people used to throw Ridley in low tier all the time because they didn't know how to angle a recovery. (Ok, thats a generalization but jefndksldjfrvknmsd whatever.)

So yeah, well made response.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

One thing I picked up in the East Powerhouse Invitational was Zackray's usage of tether recovery and his mixups. He was constantly using Neutral B or Side B when knocked off the edge of stage to make it hard to edgeguard him and then sometimes he'd either tether cancel to get on safely or stall on the ledge a bit waiting for down tilt so he wouldn't get 2 framed. He also used the tether cancel offensively a few times to get an early edgeguard kill. Like his Joker in that tournament was on an entirely new level compared to anyone else's main in the tournament, I feel as though he's actually gotten better at the game post-COVID.

His mentality seemed to improve too, particularly in the Jagaimo set and in the game against Tsu's he was losing by a considerable margin and was able to come back with that last stock mentality.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Pikachu showed his status of "best" character in that Japanese Invitational by getting 9th.

Nice.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Eastern Powerhouse Invitational FINAL

1st: Zackray
2nd: Abadango
3rd: KEN
4th: Jagaimo
5th: kept
5th: Raito
7th: Tsu
7th: Nietono
9th: kameme
9th: Kishiru
9th: Shogun
9th: takera

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Pikachu showed his status of "best" character in that Japanese Invitational by getting 9th.

Nice.

But I can see why so many pros out like a top 3 or at least 5 character ..

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pikachu showed his status of "best" character in that Japanese Invitational by getting 9th.

Nice.

I guess Peach is kind of bad since she didn't even make top 12, then? Same with Wolf or Zero Suit Samus.

Are people forgetting that Bayonetta sometimes didn't make top 8 in Smash 4 either? If a game is decently balanced, then results don't mean as much as people might think. Cool to see Palutena get some results despite her (formerly?) best player being banned. kept 5th with Villager is interesting as well (and Raito 5th with Duck Hunt).

 

[Lacrimosa]

I guess Peach is kind of bad since she didn't even make top 12, then? Same with Wolf or Zero Suit Samus.

I'm sorry but I consider it very funny that the proclaimed best character still wins so few tournaments.
Or don't you think so?

 

[Wigglerman]

I'm sorry but I consider it very funny that the proclaimed best character still wins so few tournaments.
Or don't you think so?

As others have said that a character can still be the best even if it isn't winning as much. We've talked in circles about how Pika's player representation is a lot lower than most characters. What those reasons are, who can be sure. Is it Pika is super difficult to play at peak levels? Is Pika just not fun for people in Ultimate? Again, who knows. I'd argue Pika is incredibly good and would be a bit naive to say otherwise. Do I think he's #1? I really can't say. For sure the character is top 5. Pika has most everything a character needs in Ulti to be the best or at least top 3. Pika just needs players to put in the work to 'prove it' as it were.

Is it funny one of the best characters doesn't win a lot? I mean, sure. Not 'ha ha' funny but more like 'huh, odd'. Again, not many people play Pika. No one will say Peach, Joker or Palu aren't top characters or in contention for top spot just because they might not win a lot of tournaments. With how varied this roster is, it seems a lot of folks are struggling to really stick with just any one character. A lot of counter picking happens or people are adamant in their main, regardless of their tier placements. Smash, for the first time since Melee, really feels like it has a strong need for having a pocket or playing around match ups more than ever.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'm sorry but I consider it very funny that the proclaimed best character still wins so few tournaments.
Or don't you think so?

Well the theory Larry Lurr has is that because the character is very hard to play alongside how well balanced the game is, that it means mid to high level Pikachu's don't end up doing well in tournament because of easy it is to make misinputs when playing him, and that most top players don't play Pikachu because its so well balanced that you could play anyone else and still get very similar results with an easier character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

However the issue with the "Pikachu is too hard to play" argument is that isn't really that difficult of a character to play.
Sure he is tricky to play for sure, but there are way more difficult characters to play imo.
Characters like (the latter of which only at a top level) are more difficult to play with mechanically and in terms of playstyle, but they have all achieved both stronger playerbases and results.

You have nair loops, up B angling, and tech-chasing, and while they are tricky, aren't really that difficult to do after some practice.
The rest of Pikachu's character is basic fundamentals.

The issue is that Pikachu has to overcome his issues with range, KO'ing, and being one of the lightest characters in the game. It also has to commit a lot to get its great damage output, while other top tiers can equalize or even exceed that damage with far less effort.

That is a major reason why ESAM has been the top dog of Pikachu since the beginning: he is an amazing player with strong mechanical ability and strong knowledge on reading the opponent's habits. He has pushed the character harder than any of player has pushed their own respective characters, and he has been at it for years.

While Pika has received the reps and results of a top 20 character, ESAM hasn't yet obtained the results that indicate a top 5, or even top 10 character, which is worrying considering that he has mained the character for over a decade, and his Brawl and SSB4 versions are significantly more difficult versions of the character imo.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm sorry but I consider it very funny that the proclaimed best character still wins so few tournaments.
Or don't you think so?

Bayonetta did very little for quite some time in Smash 4, so not really. If Tweek or MkLeo or Zackray played Pikachu I bet Pikachu would win lots of tournaments, but they don't play Pikachu. Ultimately player skill is more important than character strength, that's why Tweek is doing so well with Diddy Kong, despite Diddy Kong probably not being better than top 20-25 at best.

It should be noted that "The best" generally refers to "The best at top level". Pikachu is not the best at high level, Pikachu is not the best at mid level, and Pikachu is definitely not the best at low level. Unless you're, like, top 30 in the world or something Pikachu might not actually be the best character.

At this point you might inject "Hey, if Pikachu is only the best at top 30 level and ESAM is the only Pikachu around that range and he's not even top 10, is Pikachu truly the best then?". That's an interesting question. Ultimately it doesn't really matter too much if Pikachu is #1, #2, or #3. Pikachu is an incredibly strong character, but also an incredibly demanding character, and one that few players seem interesting in playing. Palutena, meanwhile, is probably top 3 as well, significantly easier, and many consider her more fun. Joker seems more popular and is probably easier as well. So even if Pikachu is #1, Joker #2, and Palutena #3, in practice it might be easier to just play Palutena or Joker, since they're still incredibly strong and are much less demanding.

As for tiers, we should keep in mind that Weighter Matchups > Matchups > Theorycrafting & Observation > Results when it comes to making a tier list, see:

Results play some role (C-tier), but Weighter Matchups (S-tier), Matchups (A-tier), and Theocrafting & Observation (B-tier) are much more important. Pikachu? Pikachu's matchupspread appears to be incredible, doing well vs some of the best characters and losing vs somewhat less common characters. Quite likely the best Weighted Matchup spread. Raw matchupspread also incredibly good, and also a contender for #1. As far as Theorycrafting & Observation goes, Pikachu's theorycrafting is incredible. And then there's results, which is where he's lacking. Still, the game is fairly new (not even 2 years old yet).

I would be interested in seeing what people who don't think Pikachu is top 10 think his MU chart looks like. Tier placements should reflect a character's weighted MU spread, so if Pikachu isn't top 10 then he shouldn't have a top 10 MU chart.

Counterpoint: How good would Melee Jigglypuff be considered if Hungrybox mained Fox instead of Jigglypuff? She would still be just as good but her results would likely be lacking.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Sorry if I'm coming off as rude, but don't you all get tired of the Pika talk? At this point it feels like a back-and-forth "Pika is overrated"-"Nah he's just hard to play" without much new really being added to the mix. If you do want to go somewhere new with the Pika discussion, I feel like discussing some of his MUs (like Frihestanka pointed) and which ones he could lose in (aside from the two obvious ones like Ness and G&W) could bring something else to the table.

To be honest, I'm more interested in talking about at the moment:

• Unsurprisingly, Palu's still insane even without Nairo. I still stand by this character being a top 3 threat and only behind Joker and Wario in terms of viability.
• I will also still stand by Duck Hunt being a good character; nearly in all the games he lost, Raito kept things fairly close, and considering how underdeveloped his can play is in the same vein Pac-Man's fruit play is, I'm honestly surprised people are so ready to call it quits on the pupper.
• Sonic's changes were fairly subtle, but nevertheless helpful in KEN's run, particularly in landing those OoS USmashes. It sounds like his renewed faith in the character is founded if this performance is anything to go by, and I'm looking forward to how he performs in the future. Also, does anyone know the safety of AC UAir on block? I've seen KEN use that way more than usual, and it actually looks like a legitimate way to apply pressure up-close on the opponent, something I've felt Sonic's always lacked with most of his CQC moves.

 

[Wigglerman]

Out of the entire roster, Palu is my most hated opponent. Big hit boxes, lots of them multi hit and able to be easily chained for stage length combos. Her arm shield armor being, imo, incredibly obnoxious and not really needed considering how good her kit is on its own. Great keep away while also maintaining strong options in close quarters and can just delete stocks.

Duck Hunt is similar to Pika in that I feel the character is better than in 4 but maintains a high skill requirement to make the most of their kit. In the right hands can wall out a lot and deal quite a bit though I feel a lot of their smashes are funky and players can pop out of them a lot.

Sonic is strong, not Smash 4 strong but still strong. I think he's 'slept on' slightly in this game because so many other characters have so much potential in this game and thus more to talk about. Even 2 years in and people are still unsure on placements for the vast majority of the roster. Which says a lot. Sonic is Sonic and he hasn't changed much, so talking about him is generally rare.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I never understood what made Pikachu hard to play in comparison to other characters. He isn’t the only character with extended combo routes. If anything once you are used to using angles with the multitude of ways to use it, it’s speed and side b recovery is rather easy at that point. He has lacking range but a neutral tool that makes up for that, so what exactly is making him such a challenge to use?

I also agree the Pikachu is number one/not number one topic that gets dragged to death is far better focused on actually discussing his matchups (particularly with meta relevant characters). You can actually make ground on the topic with matchup discussion.

Since I see Tjolt brought up so often when people discuss why they can’t beat Pikachu I ask a question. What does your character have that lets them play around tjolt and how effective is it? What does your character do when Pikachu pancakes your shield? Are you able to do anything when he’s right next to you? I promise you that are not the only characters that flat out do not care about Tjolt and can keep up with Pikachu’s damage output.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I promise you that are not the only characters that flat out do not care about Tjolt and can keep up with Pikachu’s damage output.

I'd argue that outside of those three, there definitely are characters who fit that description. A few I can come up with off the top of my head are and , although it's worth noting that Doc and Mewtwo have other issues that prevent them from outright beating Pikachu despite their ability to outdamage him and deal with t-jolt.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'd argue that outside of those three, there definitely are characters who fit that description. A few I can come up with off the top of my head are and , although it's worth noting that Doc and Mewtwo have other issues that prevent them from outright beating Pikachu despite their ability to outdamage him and deal with t-jolt.

Seconding . The airspeed and double jump armor not only help tremendously with t jolts, but with the matchup as a whole. While a lot of other characters get camped, Yoshi floats on over! The other character with as insane aerial mobility, , doesn't do as well as Yoshi does due to being significantly lighter, no double jump armor, and no projectile. Egg may not be the most amazing projectile, but getting a few on Pikachu is nonetheless a big help.

has lazer, reflector, outranges, and good kill power. will have a bit of a hard time hitting such a small opponent, but he has Rebel's Guard, Tetrakarn/Makarakarn, and can get a lot of mileage out of Gun. I think these two at least have the potential to go even.

Is there anything that makes all that hard of a MU for ? She has the counter + reflector in one that'll help with both t jolts and attacking approaches (it must be used wisely, as with any counter, but it's still useful), has projectiles of her own including one that kills, has range, has a back throw that'll kill Pika very early. Honestly seems Palu-favored, though I could be wrong.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I stand by and my extension being strong in the Pikachu match up. Pikachu's main gameplan is to use Thunder Jolts to cover his approach, which is something Charizard can snuff out with his disjoints like f-tilt, nair and the admittedly risky flamethrower. Bair is also a move that, while hard to land on Pikachu's tiny body serves as a deadly callout agaisnt full hop T-jolts and potentially kill early.

Charizard is also risky to edge guard thanks to his super armor of Flare Blitz and Fly, as well as his ability to position himself with his multi-jump. While Charizards huge hurtbox as well a Flare Bltiz being super risky makes it do that he doesn't have a get-out-of-jail-free card it does demand a ton of respect.

Between Charizard being able to snuff out Pikachu's attempts to approach with a grab and the respect he demands when recovering, Charizard really causes Pikachu's lack of raw kill power to be a problem for him. A Charizard with rage can kill a Pikachu early and reliably, and Pikachu's killing issues mean its going to find itseñf in that position often.

Its also worth noting that while Charizard's Up Smash and Fly can deal with pancaking he rarely gets to use them from my experience. I don't know if its just that Pikachu players know to repsect his shield or if its just that us Zards just don't like to sit in shield against Pika out of fear of getting grabbed.

I'd go into Ivysaur's and Squirtle's interactions with pikachu but I'm tired. Niether really like fighting Pika imo but they don't do so bad that Zard can't pick up some of the slack, especially since Ivy has her own disjoints.

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, I was playing around with Displaced Phantom and it's so much easier to do consistently now.

Really nice change and from the matches I've played I think it has good potential to increase her neutral game a fair bit in certain match-ups.
These are characters with projectile pressure ((downB) (Ness not so much with PK Fire), a caveat for because it deals with Slingshot but they still have Pocket). Maybe I forgot one or two but these are all characters that can pressure her Phantom and while it wasn't impossible to set up it was significantly harder.
I don't think it has much of an effect against characters whose projectiles go through the Phantom or deal with it in other ways ((neutralB).
Then it also helps against characterters that would hit her out of it with a disjointed aerial or a general aerial approach. Because Zelda shifts backwards the spacing is now vastly different and she will get the version that hits airborne opponents fairly consistent now. This feels huge against sword characters ( to name the worst of them) or other characters that are good in the air, like .
It also deals now better with certain dash attacks like 's.

So, given the fact that it is very easy to do now and that it has an impact on all of these match-ups, I expect/hope that competing Zelda players actually care to learn this tech now. If it has the proclaimed effects: I don't know but I think it makes at least the first row of match-ups easier because they can't get rid of her best neutral tool as easy anymore.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Considering Dabuz's track record against ESAM is nearly up there with Maister and Samsora, I'd be surprised if doesn't have the edge in the Pika MU. Not just from a results perspective, but watching more footage of the match-up makes me see that Olimar has a good chunk of what Pika dislikes against Mario/G&W/Ness. Maybe not quite to the same level of effectiveness, but it's definitely up there:

• Olimar's controlling the pace of neutral with Pikmin Toss. Think of it as something like Bucket or Cape where it forces Pika to make a move besides sitting back and T-Jolting, but in a less traditional sense: Between the two projectiles, which is racking up more damage? The one single hit that deals about 5-6% on hit, or the constant plucking that's constantly amassing oodles of percent, doubly so with a White Pikmin? Pika can't afford to sit back the same way he can against someone like Palu or ROB, and that's where the second issue comes into play:
• Pika's aggression against Olimar's got holes in its gameplan. More specifically, how does Pika get in against someone with as much safety on his smash attacks, as little noticeable animations, and as much reward on each hit as someone like G&W? Neutral's a bit easier since Olimar's more vulnerable on block, but we're also dealing with a character with as much of a tiny frame as Pikachu on top of being perfectly content with flinging Pikmin to cancel out T-Jolt approaches and using a long-ranged grab to punish whiffed aerials. There's only a few instances where Olimar actually needs to be forced to shield T-Jolts in the MU, mainly because Pika has to be so ridiculously precise with his small hitboxes against someone as small and disjoint-heavy as Olimar (fun fact, Olimar can simply avoid T-Jolts by being underneath the peak of its arc). And if he whiffs anything up close? That's straight-up an easy 50~60% damage he's eating.

Dabuz listed the MU as either even or in Olimar's favor, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.