Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Nidtendofreak

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My viability study isn't complete yet, but my opinion of Snake has dramatically shifted. I don't see how a character with his stats isn't a top tier; extremely high usage, good peaks, a significant quantity of hidden bosses, the #1 upsetter in brackets when Wolf is adjusted for poor seeding, etc. Character seems underrated.
Personally I never saw him falling out of top 10. He's a heavyweight with fast buttons, kill confirms out of throws and just plain old fast kill buttons, stage control, good range for not being a sword fighter, a frame 1 combo breaker in grenades, stupid good edgeguarding in his Side B combined with other tools. His weaknesses are what... not-amazing-but-not-horrible aerials and a far-reaching-but-probably-taking-damage-in-the-process recovery process?

Yeah he's stupid good. Never should have been considered to be out of top 10.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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My viability study isn't complete yet, but my opinion of Snake has dramatically shifted. I don't see how a character with his stats isn't a top tier; extremely high usage, good peaks, a significant quantity of hidden bosses, the #1 upsetter in brackets when Wolf is adjusted for poor seeding, etc. Character seems underrated.
I agree. I think what started to shift opinions on Snake was people understanding how to play against him not that should make anyone believe he is any worse of a character before they knew the MU. Snake might as well had been a brand new DLC character in Ultimate given how few had Brawl experience who play this game while at the same time a large portion of his higher level player base used Snake in brawl so it was like they had access to a new DLC character months before they came out. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe players such as he who shall not be named, MVD, Shogun, Pelca, etc were all brawl Snake players right? That definitely impacted early impressions of Snake when Ultimate was new and people with no Snake experience had to play long time Snake veterans.

Definitely don’t let MU familiarity fool anyone, Snake is just as ridiculous as he was on day one. I personally struggle to put him outside of top three only behind Palu and ZSS and in contention for 3rd with Wario, Wolf and Joker imo.
 

StrangeKitten

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Personally I never saw him falling out of top 10. He's a heavyweight with fast buttons, kill confirms out of throws and just plain old fast kill buttons, stage control, good range for not being a sword fighter, a frame 1 combo breaker in grenades, stupid good edgeguarding in his Side B combined with other tools. His weaknesses are what... not-amazing-but-not-horrible aerials and a far-reaching-but-probably-taking-damage-in-the-process recovery process?

Yeah he's stupid good. Never should have been considered to be out of top 10.
He's kinda weak in mobility and is big and heavy enough to get comboed. I've also seen people say he's a difficult character to play a whole tournament with because you constantly have to be planning things out with him, moreso than other characters.

Of course, lack of mobility is offset by perhaps the best projectile game in the entire game, and an excellent dash attack. And grenades will get him out of untrue comboes and are a huge boon to what would otherwise be a rough disadvantage. Snake is for sure a character whose strengths outweigh his weaknesses.
 

KirbySquad101

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I'm not sure if "underrated" is the word I'd use; he's still very much widely considered to be a top 10 character at the bare minimum by most high level players:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1uQ6DAiHRmTmssmqk6VQH3lOujjUpnm_f0-HByxO53zw/htmlview# (Thank you SwagGuy)

I think the more appropriate phrase is "not-talked-about-a-lot", something Wolf probably experiences as well. As a whole, the direction of Smash Ultimate's competitive discussions - whether it's here or Twitter - focuses heavily on the outcomes of the most recent A/S Tier tournaments happening. And without Snakes constantly flooding the Top 8/16 like in early 2019, people are instead going to be focused on things like Dark Wizzy resetting Tweek at Glitch 8 with Mario or Wrath 3-0ing Glutonny at Frostbite with Sonic. The last time I've heard of any major newfound praise for Snake was during Kongo Saga, and that was only because Shogun performed so well against Maister and Samsora.

That said, I think Snake is absolutely top tier as well and is a Top 10 contender, though I am struggling to justify placing him into Top 5 myself. I personally believe Wario, Joker, Peach, Palutena, ZSS, Mario, ROB, and Fox are all ahead of him, but that's not meant to downplay the character's strengths in any way whatsoever.

If we're talking about top tiers that are being underrated, I was thinking more of someone like Fox "Not-Even-Top-15-Apparently" McCloud.
 
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blackghost

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snake is one of like 4 or 5 characters that force you to play his game and know when you can exploit his weaknesses. the difference between the opponent knowing this and not knowing this can make snake look like a top 5 character vs back end of top 15.

unlike wolf or lucina snake does feature that one wtf move in uptilt to exploit as a player and avoid as an opponent.
i also think snake fell off in some peoples minds becuase out of sight out of mind.
 

PK Gaming

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So they added Small Battlefield, how interesting

My viability study isn't complete yet, but my opinion of Snake has dramatically shifted. I don't see how a character with his stats isn't a top tier; extremely high usage, good peaks, a significant quantity of hidden bosses, the #1 upsetter in brackets when Wolf is adjusted for poor seeding, etc. Character seems underrated.
He's still blatantly overtuned in a lot of areas

He's just not the ideal character to play at the highest level unless you're fully dedicated to him because his design doesn't encourage mastering the usual fundamentals. He's just weird; better to hone your craft on someone like Wolf than the mess around with Snake and possibly have your skills in certain areas stagnate
 

Untouch

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Small Battlefield is basically Unova with more consistent platforms and less wonky ledges.
 

The_Bookworm

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Small Battlefield, as well as the infinite song variety, is a nice addition to the stagelist. We can play Ring a Ding in tournaments now :p

We are currently lacking in small stages, with Yoshi's being the only true small stage, and being in a similar platform formation as PS2 is nice as well.
That being said, the stage is noticeably smaller in size than PS2, so there will always be a reason to play PS2 over SM in certain situations.
However, this new stage makes Unova League obsolete, so the eternal debates of having the stage legal or not due to the wall slants can come to rest.

They also added a separate stage slot for random Battlefield and random Omega stages, to save some button presses.

They also made some very nice improvements to the online service, that is already getting some positive reception. I'd like to hear you guys thoughts on this.

Btw, I don't see any character changes this patch, since it seems to be an competitive online focused patch, but pls let me know if there are any changes.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Small BF feels nice so far. Normal BF platforms height wise (Ness up smash can shark BF plats while it can’t PS2 platforms) also larger platforms than PS2. I think we will have a nice healthy stage here for competitive use.

Also online is supposed to be “better” feels the same to me but I’m sure someone will find out if there has been any adjustments soon.
 

Thinkaman

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Off the cuff take: Small Battlefield is a noteworthy de facto Little Mac buff. He *vastly* prefers it to PS2.
 

StrangeKitten

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Apparently, Fountain of Dreams doesn't lag anymore; could be a stealth change?

Just a shame it won't be playable in tournament anyway because it's not different enough from Battlefield. But the fact that they added Small Battlefield gives me so much more hope for togglable hazards.

That does beg the question, though: what kinds of characters would benefit from hazards-on FoD?
 

Firox

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Off the cuff take: Small Battlefield is a noteworthy de facto Little Mac buff. He *vastly* prefers it to PS2.
Not only Little Mac. Greninja has a much easier time getting the dtilt->Up smash kill confirm with the slightly lower platforms. Me likey.
 

Minix0

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Just a shame it won't be playable in tournament anyway because it's not different enough from Battlefield.
Yes it is. Turn on hazards. Have two identical rulesets available with one minor difference-- one with hazards on, the other with it off. You have to select rules first anyway, why not?
 
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NotLiquid

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While it's tougher to ascertain representation given the current state of things, Japan already has their own top Min Min player in the form of Pochi who is ranked 4th in Japan's Smashmate wi-fi series, right above Shuton. They have one online set win against Shuton and two against Gackt; sets which you can watch here (2:01:24) and here (4:23:41). Thanks to Das Koopa for bringing that to light.

Apparently, Fountain of Dreams doesn't lag anymore; could be a stealth change?
It still lags. It only lags when the camera is zoomed in.
In an ideal world, we could replace Battlefield with FoD and add Small Battlefield to compensate. The frame rate drop is so specific that I kinda wish this was a case where the community could overlook it.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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I'm assuming based on the combo counter that this is true. Pokemon Trainer seems very good on this stage especially considering Squirtle gets you to that damage percentage fast.
 

SwagGuy99

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All I know, is that SBF is going to be a very good stage for Luigi. There's a few characters I can see him struggling against on that stage though.
  • :ultcloud::ultchrom::ultpit::ultdarkpit: and :ultlucina: for their ability to move across the stage decently fast with their solid mobility and cover the platforms with their decently fast and disjointed up-airs (or n-airs) that prevent Luigi from landing and getting off the platforms easily (I probably wouldn't have included Pit/Dark Pit here with the others before the up-air buff in 8.0).
  • :ultpiranha: low key might be solid here too. I can see Ptooie being annoying for Luigi on the platforms due to how low and close together they are.
Overall, I think this stage is really good for Luigi, it seems like it might be a solid CP stage against zoners due to it's small size and lower platforms. In addition to that, Luigi kills extremely early on this stage, doesn't have to deal with being pressured if he is forced to be on the top platform (because there is no top platform like normal BF), he also doesn't have to worry about his opponents sitting on the top platform to prevent him from being able to hit them safely, slower characters can't try to run away from him and seek safety on the platforms since the stage is so small, and his moves cover the platforms well, like they do with the lower platforms on Battlefield (Credit to Venus on these)


Edit: Based on my early thoughts, this is most likely Luigi's best stage against most of the roster. There are some characters where Smashville or FD might be just as good or slightly better, but the fact that this stage prevents people from zoning and (platform) camping Luigi or running away to the extent they can on other stages is extremely good for him, and his ability to kill early and cover the platforms well with up-tilt and up-smash is just the little extra bit he needed for this stage to (most likely) be his best.
 
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The_Bookworm

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So prior to this patch, our current stagelist is commonly considered to be this:

Starters
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpicks
Yoshi's Story
Kalos Pokemon League
Lylat Cruise

Or at least something like that.

With the addition of Small Battlefield, Mew2King suggests that it should be a starter, while PS2 be moved to a counterpick due to its larger size.
So by that logic, our new stagelist would look like:

Starters
Battlefield
Final Destination
Small Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpicks
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Story
Kalos Pokemon League
Lylat Cruise

Certain versions of our current ruleset has relegated Lylat Cruise to a starter stage. Mew2King suggests that it should be moved to counterpick.
The only other stage worth noting is Unova Pokemon League, as with the addition of Small Battlefield, UPL is now rendered obsolete.

So yeah, exciting stuff for competitive play.
 

blackghost

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in this era of online small events why is no one at least trying hazards on events? this is the perfect time to do it. all it take is one player of influence to start it.
Having these stages reduced to BF clones is just dull. not to mention punishes characters for simply not being good on BF.

how close are the side blastzones for sbf? that will determine of Bayo likes the stage or not. with no top platform i'd say thats a bad stage for bayo
 

SapphSabre777

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The introduction of Small Battlefield creates a lot of interesting possibilities in regards to stagelists for the future, and while that isn't the topic to be explained, I want to talk about how it can potentially affect characters and their stage-pick issues. Funnily enough, :ultkirby: comes to mind here and serves as a good example (along with many other characters, tbh).

Small Battlefield is a very interesting FD/BF hybrid that allows platform characters to have fun while letting FD-lovers have access to all the fun of the stage without running around in fear of being zoned/camped-out. Compared to PS2, it has the same ceiling, but it's side blast-zones are identical to FD, making it much smaller as a result. Characters that like platforms, but don't enjoy getting zoned out through the use of them, will love this stage.

:ultkirby:, as an example, doesn't mind the F-Throw thing under the platforms because, ironically, the 8.0 buffs gave him a F-Air that combos and pushes characters out from beneath it. Aside from that, having platform combos and most importantly, a tight space between all the geometry of the stage, makes Kirby's camping/zoning issues alleviated by a decent amount, considering Kirby can traverse between platforms rather easily. It's a very unique stage for Kirby in that this is as close to a perfect platformed stage as it can get, bar Smashville, with an FD base and accessible platforms that are tightly knit together.

This now goes to something I've been thinking since SBF's release: how the stagelist will affect characters. Looking back at it now, current stage-lists have favored zoning characters as a result of the starter stages used (BF/PS2/T&C sometimes/Lylat sometimes/YS sometimes). Obviously this was a result of the lack of stages we had to pick for competitive. If FD, SBF, and SV are all in the same spot, even starters, then this is huge for zoning characters and characters weak to zoning. Zoning characters may be indirectly nerfed since, in a hypothetical 5-stage starter, if all three of the above stages are in that list, it means that the only possible big stages left in PS2 and BF can be struck, forcing one of those three stages to be picked rather than settling on getting outnumbered by zone-friendly stages. Small Battlefield is a true median that allows zoning to an extent with platforms, but the structure of them allows characters to be able to confront and "zonebreak" them unlike in bigger stages. As a result, if this ends up being the case, expect characters that struggled in the past with stagepicks to now have no issue at all and able to come out of the woodworks, such as the characters mentioned above already. It'll be very interesting to see the new stagelist, and how all these characters will shift and react to it as it comes out.

Edit: Darn you, Thinkaman with your timely posts. Same ideas in different words and I'm dealing with a derped keyboard. But agreed, smaller stages will be boons to characters thanks to actually having stages that aren't favored to kryptonite zoners or campers for some characters and MUs, i.e. Kirby and Mac, amongst a LOT of others.
 
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Thinkaman

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While "Small" Battlefield isn't really that "Small", virtually any policy change moving forward will result in fewer matches on stages bigger than it. (Even if you banned Yoshi's, kept every existing big stage, and made Small BF merely a counterpick, it would see far more play than Yoshi's does now and remain legal in more regions.)

For most characters, the actual impact of this is a surprisingly valid debate in which most off-the-cuff guesses are likely to be wrong. For example, data suggests that stage preference for Kalos/T&C and PS2 might actually be negatively corrolated.

However, the biggest loser is an easy guess unlikely to be wrong: Lucario. Lucario-on-Kalos is one of the most positive stage biases in the game, and T&C/PS2 are his better performing starters.


Otherwise, the data makes it hard to guess. As the tight corrolation with Yoshi's suggests, most the Battlefield preferences are entirely due to the top platform. I'll dig into this a bit more.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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in this era of online small events why is no one at least trying hazards on events? this is the perfect time to do it. all it take is one player of influence to start it.
Having these stages reduced to BF clones is just dull. not to mention punishes characters for simply not being good on BF.

how close are the side blastzones for sbf? that will determine of Bayo likes the stage or not. with no top platform i'd say thats a bad stage for bayo
All the blastzones (Side and top) are the same as Final Destination.

ESAM did a video on SB and explained the differences between it, FD, regular Battlefield and PS2.
 
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Thinkaman

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smash_data_3_0.png


This is a normalized version of stage biases exhibited in the previously mentioned mentioned smash.gg pre-8.0.0 lifetime data set. Some observations:
  • PS2 is the least variant stage, even when controlling for the fact that it is played more.
    • However, we would still expect the "braindead" pick to be artificially more consistent, as more players default to it without necessarily understanding or exploiting the stage.
    • Also worth pointing out that it is by far the favorite stage of :ultjoker: and :ultwolf:, the 2 most popular characters in competitive play. (Snake likes it even more.)
  • All other "starters" are roughly as consistent.
    • This includes Lylat, which performs like a neutral stage in spite of being the least played. (Only played by players gunning to exploit it.)
  • Kalos and Yoshi's are more variable, but in general less than half the variability of the others. Most of their variability is in outliers:
    • :ultpikachu: and :ultlucario: rule Kalos.
    • :ultbowser: and :ultmario: rule Yoshi's.
    • :ultsonic: and :ultpacman: really hate Yoshi's.
  • Stage usually doesn't matter much to most characters:
    • Over 60% of characters/stage combinations see less than a 2% change in win rate.
    • Over 87% see less than a 4% change.
    • Over 96% see less than a 6% change.
  • Disjointed characters and close-range zoners tend to be the most consistent and care about stages the least.
  • In order, the characters who care about stage the most are :ultsonic::ultmario::ultsnake::ultpikachu::ultgreninja::ultbowser::ultpacman::ultlucario::ultluigi::ultike:. Their biases all match what one would expect.
  • :ultpokemontrainer: is not neutral or "well-rounded" in this regard, but has a big preference for platforms. Honestly, it checks out.
  • I am suspicious about the :ultlittlemac: data. He's less stage-influenced than I would expect (he's about average), especially on Kalos and Yoshi's. (Where he should performing very poorly, worse than Battlefield.)
  • I would also expect :ultwario: to show a size preference (due to Waft), but he doesn't.
  • :ultdoc: is actually one of the least stage-influenced characters in the game, unlike his platform-obsessed alternate self.
  • :ultluigi: has the most idiosyncratic preferences, that don't really align to any mainstream trend.
Now, here is a matrix of correlation coefficients between the stages:

smash_data_3_1.png

  • The two most opposite stages are actually FD and BF.
  • The two most similar stages are BF and Yoshi's.
  • FD, T&C, and Kalos are a very clear group.
  • Battlefield, Yoshi's, Lylat, and Smashville are also a clear group, but how similar they are to each other varies more.
  • PS2 is actually the most neutrally-corrolated stage to every other stage.
    • Interestingly, the 2nd most "median" stage is easily Lylat.
  • Bottom line: The main correlative trend in stage performance is not size. It's PLATFORM DENSITY.
    • Poor Lucario is the exception that proves the rule.

Honestly, I expect LB to be between PS2 and Lylat in terms of these corrolations. The data suggests this is great news for :ultsnake:; Snake loves PS2 and Lylat, otherwise likes BF, and uniquely despises both Yoshi's and Kalos. Whatever happens to the rulesets, Snake wins.

The biggest loser is actually, off the cuff, :ultgreninja:. For all the fun tricks he can do with BF platforms, they don't stop him from, well, losing on BF a lot. He performs poorly on both PS2 and Lylat. :ultsonic: hates Lylat, :ultpikachu: and :ultpichu: hates PS2, none of those guys are likely to be keen on what this addition does to their win-rates.

Edit: Sorted the character sheet based on sumproduct of the biases with the correlations.
 
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Rizen

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IDK why you guys are assuming Tiny BF (god bless us everyone) is bad for zoners. :ultyounglink: and :ultlink: love the duel plat layout with a gap in the center. It's perfect for hopping from platform to platform, tossing boomerang and bombs down. In fact Unova was YL's best stage when it was legal.
 

Leonyx

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It does seem like the two platform format of Pokemon Stadium 2 is good for zoners according to that chart Thinkaman posted, so theoretically it would follow suit for Small Battlefield as well. It's not dramatic but it would tip the scales some. I think there's some merit to the gap between having a factor in it, there's more room for zoners to navigate and it's more difficult to avoid projectiles with only two heights as landing options, especially from the short distance between platforms.
 

MrGameguycolor

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IDK why you guys are assuming Tiny BF (god bless us everyone) is bad for zoners. :ultyounglink: and :ultlink: love the duel plat layout with a gap in the center. It's perfect for hopping from platform to platform, tossing boomerang and bombs down. In fact Unova was YL's best stage when it was legal.
The side platforms work as cover against aerial approaches primarily.
 

SwagGuy99

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  • :ultluigi: has the most idiosyncratic preferences, that don't really align to any mainstream trend.
Not surprising. I misunderstood this initially and had a chance to look at the data. I'm taking back what I said about not being surprised and now I actually am kind of surprised. Most Luigi mains I've talked to usually agree his best stages are Smashville or FD (except against campier characters in the case of FD), but generally agree Luigi doesn't really have a definitive worst stage or even a bad stage really. Most Luigi mains (including myself) generally agree that our worst stage is dependent on the matchup. I personally would say our worst stage most often ends up being Kalos or Yoshi's against our more relevant losing matchups. Curious to see if the addition of Small Battlefield (which in turn could lead to a potential ban of Kalos) changes these results for Luigi at all.

IDK why you guys are assuming Tiny BF (god bless us everyone) is bad for zoners. :ultyounglink: and :ultlink: love the duel plat layout with a gap in the center. It's perfect for hopping from platform to platform, tossing boomerang and bombs down. In fact Unova was YL's best stage when it was legal.
I personally don't think Small Battlefield is necessarily bad for zoners, but I know it would be the stage Luigi would most likely want to take zoners too if it becomes legal.

Edit: Made changes after I had a chance to look at the data and read this through more closely so that this makes more sense.
 
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Thinkaman

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Most Luigi mains I've talked to usually agree his best stages are Smashville or FD

I personally would say our worst stage most often ends up being Kalos or Yoshi's against our more relevant losing matchups.
But see, that's odd.

Characters who like Smashville tend to love Battlefield/Yoshi's, often even more.
Characters who love FD tend to love T&C/Kalos.

The data does clearly show that yup, Luigi does best on SV and FD! And yup, that he dislikes all those other stages! He's very much against the grain. No other character has this sort of preferences except Ryu/Ken. (To a weaker extent)
 

Frihetsanka

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If you want to see some of what Ultimate Corrin can do, you should check out Cosmos's run at The Box: Juice Box #8, a 512 person online tournament. . More and more top players seem to agree that Corrin is high tier, although where exactly is up for debate. Cosmos and SHADIC believe that she's top 15, which seems rather optimistic. Cosmos's coach, Zeke, believes that she's probably top 20. Others might be a bit less optimistic. I think she's probably in top 20, but that remains to be seen. Cosmos seems to be doing really well online versus other top players, and while online is online, knowing Cosmos I think we can expect him to do well offline too. We should keep in mind that he's not entirely used to Ultimate Corrin yet, and as he keeps playing he'll pick up more Ultimate-specific Corrin stuff. I believe Corrin has what it takes to be a solid top 20 character and Cosmos has the potential to be top 10 yet again.

Also, speaking of Corrin mains, SHADIC is only 13 and is already showing great promise. It'll be interesting to see where he'll be in a year or two, and if he keeps playing Corrin.
 

Shell

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Thanks Thinkaman Thinkaman , really great data there.

one request though — could you please share the raw sheet? Or at least share an image version saved in high resolution preferably sorted alphabetically by character name. :)
 
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Fenrir VII

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View attachment 281428

This is a normalized version of stage biases exhibited in the previously mentioned mentioned smash.gg pre-8.0.0 lifetime data set. Some observations:
  • PS2 is the least variant stage, even when controlling for the fact that it is played more.
    • However, we would still expect the "braindead" pick to be artificially more consistent, as more players default to it without necessarily understanding or exploiting the stage.
    • Also worth pointing out that it is by far the favorite stage of :ultjoker: and :ultwolf:, the 2 most popular characters in competitive play. (Snake likes it even more.)
  • All other "starters" are roughly as consistent.
    • This includes Lylat, which performs like a neutral stage in spite of being the least played. (Only played by players gunning to exploit it.)
  • Kalos and Yoshi's are more variable, but in general less than half the variability of the others. Most of their variability is in outliers:
    • :ultpikachu: and :ultlucario: rule Kalos.
    • :ultbowser: and :ultmario: rule Yoshi's.
    • :ultsonic: and :ultpacman: really hate Yoshi's.
  • Stage usually doesn't matter much to most characters:
    • Over 60% of characters/stage combinations see less than a 2% change in win rate.
    • Over 87% see less than a 4% change.
    • Over 96% see less than a 6% change.
  • Disjointed characters and close-range zoners tend to be the most consistent and care about stages the least.
  • In order, the characters who care about stage the most are :ultsonic::ultmario::ultsnake::ultpikachu::ultgreninja::ultbowser::ultpacman::ultlucario::ultluigi::ultike:. Their biases all match what one would expect.
  • :ultpokemontrainer: is not neutral or "well-rounded" in this regard, but has a big preference for platforms. Honestly, it checks out.
  • I am suspicious about the :ultlittlemac: data. He's less stage-influenced than I would expect (he's about average), especially on Kalos and Yoshi's. (Where he should performing very poorly, worse than Battlefield.)
  • I would also expect :ultwario: to show a size preference (due to Waft), but he doesn't.
  • :ultdoc: is actually one of the least stage-influenced characters in the game, unlike his platform-obsessed alternate self.
  • :ultluigi: has the most idiosyncratic preferences, that don't really align to any mainstream trend.
Now, here is a matrix of correlation coefficients between the stages:

View attachment 281419
  • The two most opposite stages are actually FD and BF.
  • The two most similar stages are BF and Yoshi's.
  • FD, T&C, and Kalos are a very clear group.
  • Battlefield, Yoshi's, Lylat, and Smashville are also a clear group, but how similar they are to each other varies more.
  • PS2 is actually the most neutrally-corrolated stage to every other stage.
    • Interestingly, the 2nd most "median" stage is easily Lylat.
  • Bottom line: The main correlative trend in stage performance is not size. It's PLATFORM DENSITY.
    • Poor Lucario is the exception that proves the rule.

Honestly, I expect LB to be between PS2 and Lylat in terms of these corrolations. The data suggests this is great news for :ultsnake:; Snake loves PS2 and Lylat, otherwise likes BF, and uniquely despises both Yoshi's and Kalos. Whatever happens to the rulesets, Snake wins.

The biggest loser is actually, off the cuff, :ultgreninja:. For all the fun tricks he can do with BF platforms, they don't stop him from, well, losing on BF a lot. He performs poorly on both PS2 and Lylat. :ultsonic: hates Lylat, :ultpikachu: and :ultpichu: hates PS2, none of those guys are likely to be keen on what this addition does to their win-rates.

Edit: Sorted the character sheet based on sumproduct of the biases with the correlations.
If I'm reading this right, it seems to indicate that by and large (in terms of character bias):
-FD & Kalos are basically the same stage, with Kalos being more extremely weighted for the benefited character
-BF and Yoshi's are basically the same stage, with Yoshi's being more extremely weighted for the benefited character
-These two groupings benefit opposite groups of characters.
-Kalos and Yoshi's tend to have larger influence than FD and BF

With that in mind, why wouldn't we pursue banning both Kalos and Yoshi's to simplify the stage list and remove the extremes?

Another outcome from this.. If we assume that SBF and PS2 are roughly even in terms of character advantage (helped by the fact that PS2 is the least biased stage and this data seems to indicate that stage layout is king in determining similarity), then the optimal stage lists, imo, would be:

3-stage: FD, BF, SBF
5-stage: FD, BF, SBF, SV, T&C
7-stage: FD, BF, SBF, SV, T&C, Lylat, PS2

Honestly of these, I would run the 7-stage list FLSS and call it a day. All 7 stages are great, depending on the matchups. and 7 stage FLSS is pretty simple and quick to run
As a note, I chose SBF for the 3 and 5-stage lists over PS2 to better unify the overall stage design... no under-walls, fewer pineapples, etc. It also has the benefit of being practice-able in quickplay now (which does help new tourney-players). I could go either way here tbh, but I tend to think SBF is the better choice overall assuming some unforeseen bias doesn't show up.
 

teluoborg

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But see, that's odd.

Characters who like Smashville tend to love Battlefield/Yoshi's, often even more.
Characters who love FD tend to love T&C/Kalos.

The data does clearly show that yup, Luigi does best on SV and FD! And yup, that he dislikes all those other stages! He's very much against the grain. No other character has this sort of preferences except Ryu/Ken. (To a weaker extent)
It's not that surprising when you think about how luigi (and the shotos) plays. It's a low mobility character that wants his opponent close, preferably on the same ground level as him. So SV because the stage is small and you can play some ground game (and perform your grab combos) on the platform thanks to its size, and FD so that people can't platform camp him. Kalos/TC or BF actually make it harder for him to play his game.

So in some cases platform density isn't the most important, you have to factor the shape of the stage
 
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