Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

If you want to see some of what Ultimate Corrin can do, you should check out Cosmos's run at The Box: Juice Box #8, a 512 person online tournament. . More and more top players seem to agree that Corrin is high tier, although where exactly is up for debate. Cosmos and SHADIC believe that she's top 15, which seems rather optimistic. Cosmos's coach, Zeke, believes that she's probably top 20. Others might be a bit less optimistic. I think she's probably in top 20, but that remains to be seen. Cosmos seems to be doing really well online versus other top players, and while online is online, knowing Cosmos I think we can expect him to do well offline too. We should keep in mind that he's not entirely used to Ultimate Corrin yet, and as he keeps playing he'll pick up more Ultimate-specific Corrin stuff. I believe Corrin has what it takes to be a solid top 20 character and Cosmos has the potential to be top 10 yet again.

Also, speaking of Corrin mains, SHADIC is only 13 and is already showing great promise. It'll be interesting to see where he'll be in a year or two, and if he keeps playing Corrin.

However, something to note is that no one else is used to Ultimate Corrin either. Patch 8.0 essentially added Corrin to the game, and no one knows how to quite fight the character either. All of Cosmos' sets went down to the wire, aside from his set against Sonix.

We still require more time to see if Corrin is truly the high tier superstar some people are claiming now, especially since The Box: Juice Box #8 isn't too big of an event.

 

[Rizen]

There's an online tournament result thread but it never gets updated.
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-online-tournament-results.502914/

If you want to see some of what Ultimate Corrin can do, you should check out Cosmos's run at The Box: Juice Box #8, a 512 person online tournament. . More and more top players seem to agree that Corrin is high tier, although where exactly is up for debate. Cosmos and SHADIC believe that she's top 15, which seems rather optimistic. Cosmos's coach, Zeke, believes that she's probably top 20. Others might be a bit less optimistic. I think she's probably in top 20, but that remains to be seen. Cosmos seems to be doing really well online versus other top players, and while online is online, knowing Cosmos I think we can expect him to do well offline too. We should keep in mind that he's not entirely used to Ultimate Corrin yet, and as he keeps playing he'll pick up more Ultimate-specific Corrin stuff. I believe Corrin has what it takes to be a solid top 20 character and Cosmos has the potential to be top 10 yet again.

Also, speaking of Corrin mains, SHADIC is only 13 and is already showing great promise. It'll be interesting to see where he'll be in a year or two, and if he keeps playing Corrin.

Are there videos of this?

It's just like I said: buffs matter. It's easy to dismiss them as irrelevant characters until Cosmos picks up Corrin and suddenly we have another high (possibly top) tier. Or Tweek picks up Diddy. Or Cloud and YL start popping up everywhere. Unfortunately all we have is online which is a different and worse meta but we have to work with what we got.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Do we already have "numbers" how much Online improved?

 

[Krysco]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/NerfHerder08/status/1291092316573380608?s=20
This is the most I've seen about the online changes and Sakurai tweeted about improving online 1v1 as well (showing the translation by PushDustin)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1290824272307302400?s=20
And my understanding of tick rate as I've read on Twitter is that it determines how often packets of information are sent during a match so when it's 30, it only sends every other frame while at 60 it should send info every frame. I've seen some mention that online feels slightly better while others say it doesn't feel any different. I personally haven't checked as I don't bother with online unless it's with friends.

 

[Frihetsanka]

However, something to note is that no one else is used to Ultimate Corrin either. Patch 8.0 essentially added Corrin to the game, and no one knows how to quite fight the character either. All of Cosmos' sets went down to the wire, aside from his set against Sonix.

We still require more time to see if Corrin is truly the high tier superstar some people are claiming now, especially since The Box: Juice Box #8 isn't too big of an event.

Yeah, I agree at this point in time it's really hard to say. Watching Cosmos, SHADIC, and playing her myself makes me optimistic for Ultimate Corrin, at least. Cosmos has been doing really well in First to 10s too, winning against

Spoiler

Light (twice), Dabuz (twice), ESAM, and being fairly close against Samsora and MkLeo (his Byleth though). SHADIC (Corrin ditto) and Tweek (Cosmos also played Pikachu and Inkling and lost) kind of bopped him though. SHADIC was fairly early after Cosmos picked up Corrin again, maybe he'd do better next time.

.

Are there videos of this?

It's just like I said: buffs matter. It's easy to dismiss them as irrelevant characters until Cosmos picks up Corrin and suddenly we have another high (possibly top) tier. Or Tweek picks up Diddy. Or Cloud and YL start popping up everywhere. Unfortunately all we have is online which is a different and worse meta but we have to work with what we got.

Cosmos's VOD, timestamped for the set vs Epic_Gabriel (the first really notable player he faced).

Some of the matches were also streamed by the official VOD, especially in top 8. Cosmos vs Sonix (though Cosmos's stream had more memes and City Escape music).

It is true that we only have online, and it's plausible that Corrin somewhat benefits from online (I'm not really sure, I think in 4 she was about the same viability online as offline though). Cosmos has an interesting subgoal: If he reaches 3000 subs he'll enter 15 online tournaments in a month as solo Corrin. For the time being, he seems to really enjoy Corrin, and I would estimate the chances really high that he'll continue to main Corrin, either solo main or with an Inkling and/or Pikachu secondary for characters like Fox and Pikachu.

I don't think the Fox matchup is as bad as Cosmos thinks though. Probably just -1. Fox can pressure Corrin hard and juggle her hard, but Corrin still has a sword, and she also juggles Fox and kills him fairly easily. I don't think it's -2.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/NerfHerder08/status/1291092316573380608?s=20
This is the most I've seen about the online changes and Sakurai tweeted about improving online 1v1 as well (showing the translation by PushDustin)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1290824272307302400?s=20
And my understanding of tick rate as I've read on Twitter is that it determines how often packets of information are sent during a match so when it's 30, it only sends every other frame while at 60 it should send info every frame. I've seen some mention that online feels slightly better while others say it doesn't feel any different. I personally haven't checked as I don't bother with online unless it's with friends.

I can’t really say it felt better than before over some QP I did yesterday. But it is welcoming they are making legitimate effort to improve online play. Particularly 1v1 play. Rollback just isn’t happening so the next best thing is just to improve online as a whole which they seek committed to doing. Maybe we will eventually get to the point playing ultimate online doesn’t feel like a foreign game half the time.

 

[Nobie]

From what I've seen, practically every character likes Small Battlefield's platform height more than PS2's.

It makes me wonder if the stage really wasn't meant to be hazards off all along, and that it only really made sense as a temporary starting setup before transformations.

 

[Rocketjay8]

From what I've seen, practically every character likes Small Battlefield's platform height more than PS2's.

It makes me wonder if the stage really wasn't meant to be hazards off all along, and that it only really made sense as a temporary starting setup before transformations.

Of course it's not, the stage originated from a game where hazards off wasn't a thing yet.

 

[bc1910]

The biggest loser is actually, off the cuff, . For all the fun tricks he can do with BF platforms, they don't stop him from, well, losing on BF a lot. He performs poorly on both PS2 and Lylat. hates Lylat, and hates PS2, none of those guys are likely to be keen on what this addition does to their win-rates.

Edit: Sorted the character sheet based on sumproduct of the biases with the correlations.

I’ve long suspected that Battlefield is significantly worse for Greninja than common opinion would have you believe. I’d still take it over Yoshi’s personally, but Greninja really isn’t a fan of the opponent having so many platforms to escape his otherwise deadly landing punishes and the general cramped feel of the stage makes it difficult for Greninja to run away as opposed to say, Kalos or T&C. I’m surprised to see his performance on PS2 is as poor as it is, but the platform height rendering Usmash little more than a coin flip against most characters certainly doesn’t help him there. The side plats can also ruin dash attack to Usmash combos on certain characters at low percents which is generally a free ~32% and a 50/50 follow up option (dash attack if they land, chase with Uair if they jump) when platforms aren’t in play.

At a glance I think Small Battlefield shouldn’t be too bad for him. It’s far more similar to PS2 than Battlefield in how it operates (Greninja really appreciates the lack of a top platform and the lower ceiling) except the platforms are lower which makes Usmash and dash attack combos a lot more consistent. As a stage it’s basically a better PS2 for Greninja, so as long as it replaces PS2 in the starter ruleset it should help him game one. It could harm him as the set progresses though.

Overall I’ve been liking how Greninja plays on the stage but I won’t argue with the data that suggests he might end up struggling on it. Time will tell.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's entirely possible that Greninja is like what we suspect for DK and Ivysaur--characters with very specific platform-assisted vertical kill combos that are very happy to trade the top platform for a lower ceiling.

These characters are reasonable to prefer SBF more than the simple average of PS2 and BF (perhaps preferring SBF more than either), which is otherwise our baseline guess for most of the cast.

 

[Lacrimosa]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel like PS2 is just fine for Greninja. Large stages that allow him to exacerbate his mobility advantage will always be at least an average stage for him. I’d rather go there than smashville or battlefield.

 

[Thinkaman]

Brood posted a matchup chart, with a statement expresisng hesitation because he hasn't played many of these characters recently:

Off the cuff, this checks out as a logical (if very optimistic) list for Plant. Seeing Isabelle listed as one of Plant's worst matchups increases my confidence that thought and experience went into this.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Brood posted a matchup chart, with a statement expresisng hesitation because he hasn't played many of these characters recently:

Off the cuff, this checks out as a logical (if very optimistic) list for Plant. Seeing Isabelle listed as one of Plant's worst matchups increases my confidence that thought and experience went into this.

Can Villager/Isabelle pocket Pitooie and posion cloud? If so I can imagine that being an competle nightmare for Plant

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Can Villager/Isabelle pocket Pitooie and poison cloud? If so I can imagine that being an complete nightmare for Plant

Yeah.
It's not the end of the world but eh.

 

[Aaron1997]

What makes Villager only a slight disadvantage but Isabelle a large disadvantage?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

What makes Villager only a slight disadvantage but Isabelle a large disadvantage?

My guess is Fishing Rod is more dangerous then Bowling Ball and Llyoid in his opinion.

 

[Thinkaman]

Isabelle's higher mobility makes exploiting Pocket easier on both ends.

Pocketed Poison Cloud can do utterly bonkers damage, but is still often a waste of time because it lets Plant using Ptooie again as long as it's in your pocket.

Pocketed Ptooie is a contender for best move in the game.

You have to understand how Ptooie works and how Pocket bypasses its normal restrictions. Ptooie is an amazing move, gated by some restrictions:

• On Frame 9, you get the 14% hitbox.
• Starting on frame 22, you can throw it, and get the full 18% hitbox.
• 63 total frames if thrown ASAP.
• Can't hit someone next to you or gap closing.

But when Isabelle uses the move...

• On frame 9, you get the full 18% hitbox, multiplied to 34.2%
• 30 total frames. As safe as Mario or Pikachu tilts.
• 10 frames of shield stun--more than a Samus Charge Shot.
• Launched immediately in front of you, at full speed, hitting anyone adjacent or incoming.
• Can be done without losing aerial momentum, such as use as a recovery path or ledgedrop option.

Go try it. It's almost a OHKO. Extremely easy to break shields. Can be thrown out in tons of situations at basically no risk.

So, basically, Plant can't use his best move, more than half the reason to play the character. Terrible matchup.

Edit: I'm not sure if the projectile hitbox speed allows this, but it might psuedo-true-combo out of jab at high percents. (Samus Charge Shot does this. The idea is that even if it is 1 frame off from being true such they they can shield but nothing else, that doesn't help them against a projectile that will break their shield.)

 

[Frihetsanka]

I really don't understand the Lucina and Corrin placement. Would be fun to see Brood vs Zackray Corrin and Brood vs ProtoBanham Lucina. Anyone familiar with the Piranha Plant MU vs either of them?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I really don't understand the Lucina and Corrin placement. Would be fun to see Brood vs Zackray Corrin and Brood vs ProtoBanham Lucina. Anyone familiar with the Piranha Plant MU vs either of them?

I checked Zackray's twitter account, I don't think he is even bothering playing with Corrin.
None of the clips from his stream on Twitter does not depict Corrin at all. A few of them does depict him playing around with Min Min and Marth (the latter of which he does play in SSB4), but no Corrin.

Granted that I, for the life of me, cannot read Japanese characters, so maybe he mentions Corrin somewhere, but it doesn't seem like he is interested in picking the character back up.

 

[NotLiquid]

I really don't understand the Lucina and Corrin placement. Would be fun to see Brood vs Zackray Corrin and Brood vs ProtoBanham Lucina. Anyone familiar with the Piranha Plant MU vs either of them?

Lucina and the FE swordies are big on jump-ins. That's something Plant really likes since it has no problem trading hits, and the FE swordies are traditionally comparatively lacking in tools that condition opponents to be aggressive. For someone like Plant who prefers to play on reaction rather than taking action, the dynamic should hypothetically work out for it.

Looking at the rest of the chart, I'm not surprised Brood lists Banjo, Samus and Pit in particular as losing MUs - characters with great airborne control that can also throw a volley of projectiles. Most characters in general that Brood considers losing are those that can just commandeer neutral from a long distance and/or at any preferred points of the stage. ROB and Yoshi's placements are a little more curious for me, though I guess as far as the former is concerned, maybe Brood just thinks its disadvantage works against it since Plant can take advantage of ROB's landings.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Granted that I, for the life of me, cannot read Japanese characters, so maybe he mentions Corrin somewhere, but it doesn't seem like he is interested in picking the character back up.

https://twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/1291782103126831105

"Zachray's Kamui is too strong to win..."

I don't know if he's actually picking her up for tournaments, but he seems to play her a bit. He also has a video on YouTube where he plays her (but he has many different videos).

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/1291782103126831105

"Zachray's Kamui is too strong to win..."

I don't know if he's actually picking her up for tournaments, but he seems to play her a bit. He also has a video on YouTube where he plays her (but he has many different videos).

He pretty much plays the whole roster at this point.
That is interesting though. We will see how much this develops, although Zackray is very sporadic on what characters he plays.

Speaking of Corrin, Cosmos has hosted a decently sized tournament called The Cosmic Kefuffle. In case you are wondering, Cosmos himself did not participate, although he and the other members of RHS are commentating.
https://smash.gg/tournament/the-cosmic-kerfuffle/event/ssbu-singles/brackets/841634/1344307
We just reached the top 8.

Winner's
Benny&TheJets vs Riddles
Aaron vs Sparg0

Loser's
MiLe vs Epic_Gabriel
Sonix vs BestNess


Riddles has been completely destroying everyone this tournament.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smash.gg dataset per-matchup deviations of each character (from their overall average) correlation with Lucina's.

(Can be read as "Characters sorted from most Lucina-like to least Lucina-like according to overall matchup preferences.")

This could not be done that well with other characters, but Lucina has an especially large dataset, has a high coefficient for most attempts to find the leading PC eigenvalue/vector, and has Marth as a control of sorts that provides sanity and gives an idea as to the amount of noise in the data set.

Edit: For example, Peach (0.10) and Daisy (-0.14) are pretty far apart. This is likely because Daisy, the least played character, has less than 6k games (less than 100 in most matchups) and thus poor quality data. The same is true with Simon/Richter. This gives you a good idea of the limits of this, and how quickly the value would degrade to run this analysis with less popular characters. (Or the entire grid)

Edit2: Echo correlations:

• 0.31
• 0.31
• 0.16
• 0.09
• 0.07
• 0.03
• -0.03
• Bonus: 0.19
• Bonus: 0.13
• Bonus: 0.02

These should just be interpretted as the weakness of the lower bounds of this dataset, possible proof of some sort of Simpson's paradox-style confounders (people who play both consciously or subconciously pick differently in different matchups), or just more manifestation of subcultural phenomenon. (We already know that win-rates vary between "the type of people who play Peach and the type who play Daisy", so why shouldn't individual matchups vary?)

Some random highly correlated characters:

• 
  
• 
  
• 
  • no correlations between Wario and Rosa, but all the other pairings are similar to each other (so Wario and Rosa are on "opposite sides" of this family)
• 
  • no correlations between WFT and Samus/Gunner, but all the other pairings are similar to each other (so WFT and Samus/Gunner are on "opposite sides" of this family)
• 
• 
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  • no correlations between Fox and Falcon, but all the other pairings are similar to each other (so Fox and Falcon are on "opposite sides" of this family)
• 
  • anti-correlation between Falco and G&W, but all the other pairings are similar to each other (so Falco and G&W are *really* on "opposite sides" of this family)
• 
• 

 

[KirbySquad101]

Seeing Brood label the Sheik MU as a big advantage for Piranha Plant is the one thing catching my eye the most, especially considering that VoiD thinks the exact opposite (on 7.0.0 MU chart, he put Piranha Plant as a +3 MU for Sheik).

There is clearly a big disconnect between both players in terms of how they think the match-up would play out.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Two sets of Riddles destroying people.

Riddles is currently fighting Sparg0 at a winner's finals. Currently a close game 5 set.
He has been annihilating everyone.

 

[Krysco]

Edit: I'm not sure if the projectile hitbox speed allows this, but it might psuedo-true-combo out of jab at high percents. (Samus Charge Shot does this. The idea is that even if it is 1 frame off from being true such they they can shield but nothing else, that doesn't help them against a projectile that will break their shield.)

From the testing I did, Jab to Pocket Throw Ptooie starts true comboing on Plant at at least 132%, possibly a bit earlier. When I tested jab combos on all characters, I didn't have stale moves on which likely skews all the numbers I put a bit but I doubt by much. For example, you mentioned Pocket Throw Ptooie doing 10 frames of shield stun while my testing only had it as +9 on shield. You can also do the psuedo true combo earlier than 132% such as at 101%~ where Jab -> ftilt becomes a true combo and jab -> Pocket Throw Ptooie is only a frame off from being true, leaving Plant with shield as its only option to avoid it.

Admittedly I haven't updated anything since 8.0.0 and I know some things need to be changed due to start up changes for dash attack, usmash and dair but I don't believe anything was changed about Pocket Throw or Ptooie in regards to their speed or power at all so that should still be true.

Edit: I'll also mention that your uncertainty on the projectile hitbox speed is warranted as some projectiles thrown from Pocket come out slower than the usual frame 9.

Spoiler

fair comes out frame 12
Phantom Slash comes out on frame 19 for the kick, frame 15 for the final slash and frame 16 for the other 3 variants
All variants of Wild Gunmen come out frame 12
Hydro Pump comes out frame 10
Lloid Trap comes out frame 17
Fsmash is frame 14, Timber Tree is frame 37 and Lloid Rocket is frame 60
The short and long Splat Bomb throws comes out frame 10 while the middle throw is frame 25
Bomb Drop is frame 13 while Grenade Launch is frame 10
Yoshi Bomb is frame 12
Usmash and Remote Missile are frame 10
Wario Bike is frame 24
Bomb is frame 31
Poison Breath is frame 12

All other projectiles either come out on frame 9 or are items and have to be thrown after being taken out of Pocket. For the projectiles that I listed as frame 10, I'm pretty sure they're active on frame 9 but only in terms of looking for a hurtbox and then the first frame after that the hitbox appears.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Cosmic Kefuffle

1st: Riddles
2nd: Sparg0
3rd: BestNess
4th: Aaron
5th: Epic_Gabriel
5th: Benny&TheJets
7th: MiLe
7th: Sonix
9th: Ravenking
9th: Tweek
9th: Loaf
9th: Lui$
13th: Beast
13th: Angel
13th: Raffi-X
13th: GamingHI9x9
17th: Salad
17th: <-/ben
17th: WebbJP
17th: LingLing
17th: Vermillion
17th: TonyZTank
17th: SKITTLES!!
17th: Samsora


I feel like this tournament was a playground for Terry, Cloud, and Ness.

Grand finals was insane. Riddles was steamrolling Sparg0 at grand finals set 1, and easy 3-0. In set 2, Sparg0 tried the Min Min counterpick, but it didn't quite work. However, Sparg0 went back to Cloud and almost completed the reverse 3-0, until Riddles pulled off an insane comeback.

 

[toonito]

The Cosmic Kefuffle

1st: Riddles
2nd: Sparg0
3rd: BestNess
4th: Aaron
5th: Epic_Gabriel
5th: Benny&TheJets
7th: MiLe
7th: Sonix
9th: Ravenking
9th: Tweek
9th: Loaf
9th: Lui$
13th: Beast
13th: Angel
13th: Raffi-X
13th: GamingHI9x9
17th: Salad
17th: <-/ben
17th: WebbJP
17th: LingLing
17th: Vermillion
17th: TonyZTank
17th: SKITTLES!!
17th: Samsora


I feel like this tournament was a playground for Terry, Cloud, and Ness.

Grand finals was insane. Riddles was steamrolling Sparg0 at grand finals set 1, and easy 3-0. In set 2, Sparg0 tried the Min Min counterpick, but it didn't quite work. However, Sparg0 went back to Cloud and almost completed the reverse 3-0, until Riddles pulled off an insane comeback.

IIRC this is the 2nd online tournament where Terry vs Cloud was played a bit in top 8. at Domics Battle Arena about a month ago Terry vs Cloud was played in Winners Semis, Losers Quarters, Winners Finals, Losers Finals, and Grand Finals. Today that matchup was played in WF and GF.

That being said congrats Riddles!

 

[StrangeKitten]

I could see bowling ball being less of a problem than fishing rod for Plant in terms of recovering. Its up B has a good amount of flexibility to it, and bowling ball doesn't last forever. There's also down b stalling on the part of Plant, which grants armor. Fishing rod is gonna stay out much longer, and will catch down b.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well we are now back after all that maintenance. The new-ish interface will take a little bit of getting used to, but it is no biggie.
We now have icon to work with.


However, now I do have a bit of a PSA: patch 8.1 fixed the infamous T-Pose glitch, but it introduced a new game crashing glitch involving the new Battlefield song variety.

It is a glitch that you are not going to really encounter by accident, but I want to make people aware of this.

 

[Aaron1997]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

"Swallow Shoolingan (Tentative)"

"By spitting a spikeball at a specific altitude and inputting it to fly sideways just before swallowing, you can send the spikeball sideways while making a swallowing motion. Since the whole frame of the swallowing motion is short, it is possible to follow-up in ways you otherwise wouldn't be allowed to do"



New Pootie Advanced tech that allows Plant to cancel Eating the ball by throwing it. Frame perfect Tech

 

[Arthur97]

Is that new? I thought I may have heard about that before. Seems familiar at least.

 

[Krysco]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/VGBC_GimR/status/1293250724390998016?s=20

More specifics on it though I'm not sure if it absolutely has to be those frames that each input is done or if those are just the inputs specifically in the video. One comment asks about the leniency of the inputs to which Gimr says he's unsure but that it's probably dependent on when Ptooie is started and then another comment does mention that this has been a known thing since March 2019. First I'm seeing of it but then I also don't pay much attention to Plant.

 

[Minix0]

I feel like underdeveloped characters are overlooked and thrown into low tier/mid tier (or as I call it the "idk" pile) until someone picks them up and does better than totally awful and suddenly they get thrown in high tier.

Like, I kinda doubt Corrin is anything close to high tier. Can he be high tier though? Yeah, but I dunno man. I feel like people are too quick to place characters in higher tiers just because they get picked up by one prominent player.

 

[Thinkaman]

I feel like underdeveloped characters are overlooked and thrown into low tier/mid tier (or as I call it the "idk" pile) until someone picks them up and does better than totally awful and suddenly they get thrown in high tier.

Like, I kinda doubt Corrin is anything close to high tier. Can he be high tier though? Yeah, but I dunno man. I feel like people are too quick to place characters in higher tiers just because they get picked up by one prominent player.

The thesis with Corrin is that Corrin's usage and results suffered from a severe subsitution effect--that Corrin could have been decent but we had no way of knowing because there was such an abundance of similar-but-superior disjointed specialists. The same idea held, and perhaps holds, with Marth.

 

[Minix0]

The thesis with Corrin is that Corrin's usage and results suffered from a severe subsitution effect--that Corrin could have been decent but we had no way of knowing because there was such an abundance of similar-but-superior disjointed specialists. The same idea held, and perhaps holds, with Marth.

Eh fair enough. I'm incredibly skeptical but I'll check it out myself I guess.

Like, I don't see how one buff can make them go from basically bottom tier to high tier. Maybe mid. I'll dig into it.

 

[Cheryl~]

Eh fair enough. I'm incredibly skeptical but I'll check it out myself I guess.

Like, I don't see how one buff can make them go from basically bottom tier to high tier. Maybe mid. I'll dig into it.

The character was never bottom tier before the buffs, that's the thing. They were probably on the lower end of mid tier and definitely weren't worth it due to their lacking kill power mainly but a character with that many frame traps, combos, Pin (still a great tool), and a big sword cannot be on the level of characters like Doc and Ganondorf.

 

[NotLiquid]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[SwagGuy99]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This doesn't just apply to . There are other characters that can definitely take advantage of their low crouches in similar ways like .