Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

Being good at a video game does not a good person make. Should we give them kudos and monetary earnings for winning? Sure. But we also shouldn't idolize them. It's unhealthy

I think it's more along the lines of "being good at a video game does not make you an authority on how it should be played". I'm not sure the players just goofing around or trying to be good with Hero, who demands frequent thinking on your feet when commands are used appreciate being called toxic.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think it's more along the lines of "being good at a video game does not make you an authority on how it should be played". I'm not sure the players just goofing around or trying to be good with Hero, who demands frequent thinking on your feet when commands are used appreciate being called toxic.

Agreed. Hero takes skill to use effectively. Every character does. Additionally, playing Hero does not make anyone toxic

 

[Eremurus]

Hero isn't really relevant in the meta- let alone overcentralized or stagnating said meta by existing, so I don't think he merits a ban.

 

[Arthur97]

Seriously. Maybe if they tore up the charts with their RNG, but they're barely a blip as is. It's so trivial.

Though, on the topic of narrow movesets, it might be nice to have a broader stage choice. Like, Halberd was legal at some point with hazards, but with a hazard off option it is still illegal.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Seriously. Maybe if they tore up the charts with their RNG, but they're barely a blip as is. It's so trivial.

Though, on the topic of narrow movesets, it might be nice to have a broader stage choice. Like, Halberd was legal at some point with hazards, but with a hazard off option it is still illegal.

I tried playing on hazardless Halberd but I disliked it too much. It takes it a while to get to its main layout, and goes through a transformation some time after that. I found interactions to be awkward during transformations. I think the best transforming stage, funnily enough since we've been discussing Hero, is Yggdrasil's. It gets to its usual layout in 5 seconds and stays there. Platforms coming and going are unobtrusive. I'm fine if the competitive community wants to keep it banned, but if they want to expand the stagelist, or if anyone here wants more stages to play on for their own tournies, Yggdrasil's is a solid choice

 

[Neil2TheKing]

About Miis in Smash4: cry me a river.

Seriously? You're comparing the Hero ban discussion to sexual assault and pedophilia? I'm out! exits the room

Rizen , Thinkaman is right. Systems shape people. if you do what you’ve always done you’ll end up where you’ve already been. If you don’t change the way you run tournaments, if Smash Esports countinues as a niche hyper competitive community, ya’ll are going to have amother wave of sexual assault allegations in 10 years. Odds are the Smash community is still toxic. Seriously, what are the odds ya’ll caught all the sexual predators? If you don’t change the environment that allowed them to breed, they will return.

have you ever considered that making tournaments hyper competitive is a bad thing? Ya’ll have successfully taken a family game and isolated it from the world. Your community is hyper competitive, and hyper competitive people value success and accomplishment over all else. The idolization of top competitors is a natural consequence of the systems ya’ll created, and idolization is what causes so many to turn a blind eye to abuse. I 100% believe that if you had prioritized inclusion over competitiveness you wouldn’t have so much toxicity in the community. if ya’ll had made different decisions ya’ll could have prevented a lot of these *****/ sexual assaults.

About Hero...if you get hit by thwack, you messed up. Period. it’s never a good idea to get hit by that move. Maybe if you got hit by one of the worst moves in the game, you deserved it. Same thing with Critical Hit. If you got hit by a Forward Smash, maybe you deserve to lose the stock.

IMO this community seriously overestimates the variance added to the game by randomness. Try this: play 50 games on Final Destination with items on. I guarantee you the better player will win 40 of those games, if not all of them.

 

[Thinkaman]

If you don’t change the way you run tournaments, if Smash Esports countinues as a niche hyper competitive community, ya’ll are going to have amother wave of sexual assault allegations in 10 years. Odds are the Smash community is still toxic. Seriously, what are the odds ya’ll caught all the sexual predators? If you don’t change the environment that allowed them to breed, they will return.

I wouldn't imply a direct inevitability to it even if the causality is ironclad.

The sickness could manifest in an number of imaginable ways, and some we can't imagine.

You have a deep, underlying condition like AIDS--you break a bone, and you get some unusually awful outcome. You catch a cold, and you get a different unusually awful outcome. Low iron, ect. Same fuel, different sparks, different flames. "Flames" a healthy person wouldn't get from random sparks.

This time, our sparks were... twitch culture and the existence of Sky Williams? What they were exactly isn't important; the point is they will probably be different next time. It doesn't have to be pedophilia any more than it has to be people wanting to ban the Miis.

It's only natural that some of the consequences are super huge, and others are as trivial as which stages we play our video game on. Why shouldn't we expect something capable of effecting massive things to also influence little stuff?

 

[Neil2TheKing]

I wouldn't imply a direct inevitability to it even if the causality is ironclad.

The sickness could manifest in an number of imaginable ways, and some we can't imagine.

You have a deep, underlying disease like AIDS--you break a bone, and you get some unusually awful outcome. You catch a cold, and you get a different unusually awful outcome. Same fuel, different sparks, different flames.

This time, our sparks were... twitch culture and the existence of Sky Williams? What they were exactly isn't important; the point is they will probably be different next time. It doesn't have to be pedophilia any more than it has to be people wanting to ban the Miis.

When I told my friend there were pedophilia cases in the smash community, he looked at me and said “Saw that one coming”. We are playing a kids game. I daresay the environment naturally attracts and retains those kind of predators

 

[StrangeKitten]

Items on wouldn't have prevented any of the horrible abuses that occurred. Less idolizing of top players would have helped. What we need is a better means for people to speak out against abusive behaviors, and ways to prevent these behaviors.

 

[PK Gaming]

The exception that proves the rule: how quick the community was to ban or (de facto ban) Miis for no reason what-so-ever. Just like a Smashville platform.




Super atomic take: The idea that the worst possible thing that can happen in a competitive game is Samsora (or w/e) losing a single stock, in a single game, in a single set, in a single event, because of RNG, is not just bad math and not just an attitude antithetical to the actual competitive spirit, but is the exact same root delusion about the sacredness of competitive outcomes that led to the idol worship, power imbalances, sexual assualt, and pedophilic acts in the community.

The idea that Samsora, the #2 player in the world, was unduly burdened by having to 2-stock a rando playing a mediocre character, or else risk having to play an extra game, lest he go into loser's bracket early in his checks notes 112th reported Smash tournament is so bonkers I can't even respond to it.

MEANWHILE

Remember the time we got rid of pools and started eliminating 25% of the community participants 0-2, and another 25% 1-2?

Remember the time we started playing Smash 4 with just 2 stocks?

Remember the time we started insisting that all later bracket matches be Bo5, while the pleb early brackets remained Bo3 with a more aggrivated schedule?

Remember the time we would allocate some of a venue's extra setups away from the normal pool (available for practice) for VIP use?

ALL OF THESE THINGS ADD MORE INCONSISTENCY AND UNRELIABLY TO OVERALL TOURNAMENT PLAY THAN ANY NUMBER OF PEACH BOMBS, G&W 9 HAMMERS, OR HERO CRITS.

Your gods aren't just fake, they're dead. You killed them.

It's also worth absolutely noting that Samsora was distracted, mostly talking to his stream and playing carelessly. And this fanbase has the gall to use that as an excuse to ban a demonstrably mediocre character?

God, what a joke

 

[Frihetsanka]

Cosmos won another tournament with solo Corrin, beating Samsora, 2thiccnicc, and Kola twice, all without dropping a set. Cosmos has been doing well with Corrin lately, it may only be online tournaments but Corrin's viability is looking very promising.

I feel like underdeveloped characters are overlooked and thrown into low tier/mid tier (or as I call it the "idk" pile) until someone picks them up and does better than totally awful and suddenly they get thrown in high tier.

Like, I kinda doubt Corrin is anything close to high tier. Can he be high tier though? Yeah, but I dunno man. I feel like people are too quick to place characters in higher tiers just because they get picked up by one prominent player.

Corrin is hardly a brand new character that we've never seen before: She was top 13 in Smash 4, and she's looking good again in this game. Also, keep in mind that Corrin got massively buffed in 8.0.0, probably the most buffed character in all of Ultimate's lifespan if I were to make an estimate. Corrin also got other players before Cosmos picked her up and people have been playing her for themselves.

Like, I don't see how one buff can make them go from basically bottom tier to high tier. Maybe mid. I'll dig into it.

I don't know how good she was before 4.0.0, but after 4.0.0 she was either low-mid tier or mid-mid tier, just unpopular. Did I underrate her myself? Sure, but after looking into it more I've come to the conclusion that Corrin was underrated and probably not bottom 20 after 4.0.0. It's not too implausible that she would rise 35-40 spots after getting massively buffed, something like that happened in Smash 4 with Mewtwo and Marth/Lucina. Corrin is most likely high tier in this game, although where in high tier can be discussed (right now, I think she's top 20, although I suppose one could make a case for top 25 and it wouldn't be too implausible).

 

[Arthur97]

I tried playing on hazardless Halberd but I disliked it too much. It takes it a while to get to its main layout, and goes through a transformation some time after that. I found interactions to be awkward during transformations. I think the best transforming stage, funnily enough since we've been discussing Hero, is Yggdrasil's. It gets to its usual layout in 5 seconds and stays there. Platforms coming and going are unobtrusive. I'm fine if the competitive community wants to keep it banned, but if they want to expand the stagelist, or if anyone here wants more stages to play on for their own tournies, Yggdrasil's is a solid choice

Yeah, honestly not entirely sure why that stage isn't legal though I've heard complaints about the background of all things. Umbra Clock Tower this is not. Well, actually from a design perspective it's like a less nauseating version.

Either way, the stage hazard toggle seems to ironically just make people even more picky on what stages are "acceptable."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, honestly not entirely sure why that stage isn't legal though I've heard complaints about the background of all things. Umbra Clock Tower this is not. Well, actually from a design perspective it's like a less nauseating version.

Either way, the stage hazard toggle seems to ironically just make people even more picky on what stages are "acceptable."

I think it's because some songs in the game can cause copyright issues, with Dragon Quest music being infamous for having hard ass restrictions on it.

As for the discussion about how Hero ban debates are only happening because people glorify top players to the point they couldn't possibly have screwed up, I'm reminded of that major ESAM won where he fought Tweek and Tweek misplayed by trying to grab Pikachu and failing despite ESAM having shown he can mash out of Down Throw hella fast instead of using Wonderwing or something, people blamed the loss on Lylat. I also remember when Ally was beaten by Bocchi, who was very new and used Isabelle, she received loads of harassment for daring to outplay an elite player.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cosmos won another tournament with solo Corrin, beating Samsora, 2thiccnicc, and Kola twice, all without dropping a set.

Which tournament you are talking about?
The latest tournament he participated in according to SmashWiki was Juice Box #9 two days ago, in which he got 9th after losing to Tweek and Riddles.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Being good at a video game does not a good person make. Should we give them kudos and monetary earnings for winning? Sure. But we also shouldn't idolize them. It's unhealthy

Yeah this for real.

Also, I think the broader Smash competitive community has huge issues with idolatry and top player privilege as well as just like... nepotism and bracket rigging and a lot of it is just like, allowed.

This is a community where the seeding process at locals used to involve (and might still involve) a bunch of top players just huddling around the laptop.

This is a community where "skill seeding" (which is just like straight up bracket manipulation) is considered an ethical right. There was a huge blowup in the FGC a few years ago because Justin Wong didn't agree with how he was seeded and didn't want to play another top player in an early round, and a TO changed it for him. There have been other blow-ups too where a player gets their bracket changed so they don't have to fight a friend (who like isn't even a practice partner or anything, which shouldn't matter in the first place). In Smash that's like, Tuesday and all the top player stans defend these practices on Twitter all day. These things are ethnically wrong but for whatever reason the Smash community has collectively decided they're OK.

We're just like not an ethical competitive community and there is a lot of interest from top players in keeping it that way and people worship everything they say so it never changes. Also the TOs are often close friends of top players. It's been this way for years and years, all the way back to the early Brawl days (with the MK ban discussion being the most prolific example of this happening). The Ultimate community is an extension/growth of the Brawl one so I'm not at all surprised these cultural problems persist.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Which tournament you are talking about?
The latest tournament he participated in according to SmashWiki was Juice Box #9 two days ago, in which he got 9th after losing to Tweek and Riddles.

SmashWiki does not appear to be updated, he also got 4th recently in another tournament with solo Corrin (he's doing solo Corrin for 15 tournaments).

https://smash.gg/tournament/cgl-back-2-school-bash/event/cgl-back-2-school-bash-2/brackets/847587/1355099

Also notable: Samsora getting 3rd while beating Chag, Epic_Gabriel, and Sharp. He played Peach and Bayonetta from what I saw.

Yeah, honestly not entirely sure why that stage isn't legal though I've heard complaints about the background of all things. Umbra Clock Tower this is not. Well, actually from a design perspective it's like a less nauseating version.

The stage has some issues and copyright is a problem. Let's hope they never release an amazing stage that's banned due to copyright... Yggdrasil wasn't the worst but it had some issues that would likely lead to it being banned even if copyright weren't an issue. But hey, we have 9 legal stages now, that's plenty.

 

[Nemesis561]

Which tournament you are talking about?
The latest tournament he participated in according to SmashWiki was Juice Box #9 two days ago, in which he got 9th after losing to Tweek and Riddles.

He won a tournament last night, Back 2 School or something along those lines.

I havent been paying a ton of attention to smash recently because wifi sucks, but from I can see Corrin does seem to have significantly improved. Idk exact details of her buffs but pin seems like a much more potent threat with it being safer overall, and I believe up air got buffed? Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont recall it killing as early as I've been seeing, and thats huge for her since her juggling pressure is already so great. If I had to guess I'd say she's probably on the lower end of high tiers now, which is cool to see because before she was such an afterthought

 

[Frihetsanka]

I havent been paying a ton of attention to smash recently because wifi sucks, but from I can see Corrin does seem to have significantly improved. Idk exact details of her buffs but pin seems like a much more potent threat with it being safer overall, and I believe up air got buffed? Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont recall it killing as early as I've been seeing, and thats huge for her since her juggling pressure is already so great. If I had to guess I'd say she's probably on the lower end of high tiers now, which is cool to see because before she was such an afterthought

I talked about the buffs in the first half of my post here: https://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-character-impressions-2-0.464762/page-420#post-24032342

The second half I compared her to Smash 4 Corrin. Yes, up-air kills earlier (around 11%), f-smash 15%, pin kick 19% (!), bair kills earlier too, fair is more safe, comboes better, fair, up-air, backair, f-smash all deal more damage, pin jump is much safer than before, tipper f-smash is 7 frames safer on shield, non-tipper 5 frames, aerial pin 4 frames less endlag which means you can full hop aerial pin and then auto-cancel with an aerial, making it much less laggy too (and better of-stage). Overall, the buffs add up to being very, very good for her, and she was likely underrated before the patch anyway. Ever since 4.0.0 (which buffed her up-B invulnerability and range and f-smash kill power) she's been not-low tier. Now I think she's probably top 20. Good character.

 

[Rizen]

I've been watching a lot of Cosmos' and Debuz's and come to the conclusion Corrin's high tier and Pit isn't. I don't think Corrin jumped up from low tier; I've been saying she was mid tier long before the buffs. Cosmos is actually preforming better with Corrin than Pika and Inkling, of course some of that is probably MU unfamiliarity. Debuz' Pit is preforming a good deal worse. This is just an early observation and we still need a lot more data but these things often snowball. I expect other players to pick up corrin.
IMO Corrin like Lucina controls space very well and that's what sets her apart from the Pits. Will Corrin preform good outside of wifi? I'd say probably but there's no way to be sure.

 

[NotLiquid]

Character data out of Japan from the latest season of their Wi-fi ladder.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[StrangeKitten]

Impressive showings for Yoshi and Min Min! Sure, online is to be taken with a grain of salt, but I feel like those good placings prove both characters are high tier nonetheless

 

[BitBitio]

also had insanely good representation considering his general “low tier” status.

 

[TennisBall]

I personally feel like the buffs have moved Kirby out of the low tiers at least for now.
With Ron doing pretty good in terms of results and the new Dsmash buff giving Kirby an amazing kill option out of parry and allowing him to capitalize on Dair Ride with a real kill option has pushed him into somewhere probably in the lower half of mid tier.
His airspeed and recovery still leave a little to be desired but his combo potential, damage output, his new found killpower, and very convenient pancaking with Dtilt make it difficult for me to try to compare him to say, Ganon.

 

[Frihetsanka]

There was a tournament that only ran Small Battlefield, some interesting results:

Lui$ taking it, losing to Cosmos in winners finals but taking two sets in Grand Finals, using Fox versus Cosmos and Falco vs other characters (from what I saw). Notable wins vs Cosmos (twice, one loss), Samsora, Rickles, and hisoka96, a Wi-Fi Warrior from Texas who secured 3rd place, and with notable wins vs colonies, Aaron, and Samsora. Cosmos had another strong run with solo Corrin, beating Lui$ (once, losing twice in Grand Finals), Aaron, SKITTLES!!, and BassMage.

Small Battlefield is looking to be a stage where characters die relatively quickly and there isn't too much room for camping. It seems to benefit characters who kill vertically and characters who prefer aggressive games rather than campy games. Fox doing well on this stage is not too surprising. Lui$ seems to have adapted to online better than Light did (based on the First to 10s vs Cosmos, Cosmos won twice 10-5 vs Light), though the games were still fairly close. Lui$ seems to be amazing at teching stage spikes, which probably won him one game and gave him a lot of momentum versus Cosmos. The Fox matchup seems rough for Corrin, although how bad it truly is will be hard to tell for now: My guess, and SHADIC also believes this, is that it is a -1 MU. Cosmos, however, seems to think it's -2 and Corrin's worst MU. It remains to be seen whether this will be the case or not. If it turns out to really be that bad for Corrin, then it would not be unexpected to see Cosmos eventually start using either Pikachu or Inkling versus Fox. For now he will stick to solo Corrin, though.

The tournament: https://smash.gg/tournament/the-box-smolbox/details

 

[Thinkaman]

There was a tournament that only ran Small Battlefield, some interesting results:

Lui$ taking it, losing to Cosmos in winners finals but taking two sets in Grand Finals, using Fox versus Cosmos and Falco vs other characters (from what I saw). Notable wins vs Cosmos (twice, one loss), Samsora, Rickles, and hisoka96, a Wi-Fi Warrior from Texas who secured 3rd place, and with notable wins vs colonies, Aaron, and Samsora. Cosmos had another strong run with solo Corrin, beating Lui$ (once, losing twice in Grand Finals), Aaron, SKITTLES!!, and BassMage.

Small Battlefield is looking to be a stage where characters die relatively quickly and there isn't too much room for camping. It seems to benefit characters who kill vertically and characters who prefer aggressive games rather than campy games. Fox doing well on this stage is not too surprising. Lui$ seems to have adapted to online better than Light did (based on the First to 10s vs Cosmos, Cosmos won twice 10-5 vs Light), though the games were still fairly close. Lui$ seems to be amazing at teching stage spikes, which probably won him one game and gave him a lot of momentum versus Cosmos. The Fox matchup seems rough for Corrin, although how bad it truly is will be hard to tell for now: My guess, and SHADIC also believes this, is that it is a -1 MU. Cosmos, however, seems to think it's -2 and Corrin's worst MU. It remains to be seen whether this will be the case or not. If it turns out to really be that bad for Corrin, then it would not be unexpected to see Cosmos eventually start using either Pikachu or Inkling versus Fox. For now he will stick to solo Corrin, though.

The tournament: https://smash.gg/tournament/the-box-smolbox/details

Perfect event write-up. Concise and insightful.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I personally feel like the buffs have moved Kirby out of the low tiers at least for now.
With Ron doing pretty good in terms of results and the new Dsmash buff giving Kirby an amazing kill option out of parry and allowing him to capitalize on Dair Ride with a real kill option has pushed him into somewhere probably in the lower half of mid tier.
His airspeed and recovery still leave a little to be desired but his combo potential, damage output, his new found killpower, and very convenient pancaking with Dtilt make it difficult for me to try to compare him to say, Ganon.

I agree. Kirby's small, has fast frame data on most moves, strong combo game and strong kill options. No way he's below lower mid now, imo

 

[The_Bookworm]

A fairly sizable online event called The Elympics, which seems to be the first in a long series, is going on and we reached top 8.

https://smash.gg/tournament/elympics-1-1/event/ultimate-1v1/brackets/848556/1356754

Winner's
Epic_Gabriel 1-3 Maister
SKITTLES!! 0-3 Sonix

Loser's
Hisoka 1-3 Dabuz
Aaron 1-3 Kola

We are now approaching top 6.

Something to note is that this tournament didn't really keep good track on the characters used in Smash gg.
Right now, I am using all available footage to determine which character(s) are used. For example, I am not sure which character Dabuz and Kola used to defeat Hisoka and Aaron, respectively.
As a matter of fact, I am not sure which characters either of them used. The only footage I can work with is Kola defeating Samsora with Cloud (and they then did random dittos lol), and Dabuz nearly defeating Maister with Rosalina. Smash gg also showed that Dabuz used Rosa to beat Myran, and Olimar to defeat Sharp.

Something to note is that Cosmos did participate in this tournament, but he lost to Dabuz (I am assuming he used Rosa) 2-1, then to Samsora(again, I am assuming Peach was played) 2-0 to end up at 17th place.
MkLeo also participated in this tournament. I am not entirely sure which characters he used either. He lost to colinies 2-0 relatively early in the bracket, then lost to Kola 3-1 to end up at 9th place.

So yeah. Things are wacky, but it is mostly due to a lack of information on which character is being played here.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Something to note is that Cosmos did participate in this tournament, but he lost to Dabuz (I am assuming he used Rosa) 2-1, then to Samsora(again, I am assuming Peach was played) 2-0 to end up at 17th place.

Game 1 vs Dabuz he used Rosa, and it was pretty close but Dabuz killed Cosmos when he was landing around 86% mid stage with a Rosa + Luma f-smash (Cosmos did not expect to die that early). The third game was vs Olimar (well, technically Alph), pretty much even but Purple up-Smash sealed it.

Cosmos seemed a bit tired this tournament (it was his 6th tournament in 6 days) so he's taking a break until Monday. Both Dabuz and Samsora are very good players though (and Samsora seems to be improving online, taking 9th place in this tournament, losing to Kola and Aaron, also respectable losses).

 

[Minix0]

Cosmos won another tournament with solo Corrin, beating Samsora, 2thiccnicc, and Kola twice, all without dropping a set. Cosmos has been doing well with Corrin lately, it may only be online tournaments but Corrin's viability is looking very promising.

Corrin is hardly a brand new character that we've never seen before: She was top 13 in Smash 4, and she's looking good again in this game. Also, keep in mind that Corrin got massively buffed in 8.0.0, probably the most buffed character in all of Ultimate's lifespan if I were to make an estimate. Corrin also got other players before Cosmos picked her up and people have been playing her for themselves.

I don't know how good she was before 4.0.0, but after 4.0.0 she was either low-mid tier or mid-mid tier, just unpopular. Did I underrate her myself? Sure, but after looking into it more I've come to the conclusion that Corrin was underrated and probably not bottom 20 after 4.0.0. It's not too implausible that she would rise 35-40 spots after getting massively buffed, something like that happened in Smash 4 with Mewtwo and Marth/Lucina. Corrin is most likely high tier in this game, although where in high tier can be discussed (right now, I think she's top 20, although I suppose one could make a case for top 25 and it wouldn't be too implausible).

I get what you're saying but people are way too quick to throw characters into high tier just because a player picks them up and does well. Keep in mind his claims that they're top 15 means he's saying they're potentially better than characters like Mario, Cpt. Falcon, Inkling, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Chrom, Bowser, ROB, etc.

I'm sure there's a chance, but then again in a game of almost 80 characters, random characters like these will undoubtably do better than say, some random low/mid tier character in a 30 char roster due to the simple fact that barely anyone has experience with them. Again, not set in stone, but still.

I don't see myself being optimistic until more than 1-3 players do well with them. I want to at least give it time before making a true final decision.

 

[StrangeKitten]

MkLeo also participated in this tournament. I am not entirely sure which characters he used either. He lost to colinies 2-0 relatively early in the bracket, then lost to Kola 3-1 to end up at 9th place.

Man, even after all this time, Leo still can't return to glory. Goes to show how much of a different game online is.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Man, even after all this time, Leo still can't return to glory. Goes to show how much of a different game online is.

He just needs to go back and stay playing Greninja, rather than Marth/Byleth. Leo even said his Greninja is his second best character aside from Joker.

 

[The_Bookworm]

He just needs to go back and stay playing Greninja, rather than Marth/Byleth. Leo even said his Greninja is his second best character aside from Joker.

We don't quite know which character he used in the tournament. I simply used Marth/Byleth as a placeholder, since it is the characters he has been using lately, but he may very well have been using Greninja.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I'm going to side with The_Bookworm and wait and see just how good Corrin really is.

 

[NotLiquid]

He just needs to go back and stay playing Greninja, rather than Marth/Byleth. Leo even said his Greninja is his second best character aside from Joker.

Leo used Greninja in that tournament, or at the very least, he used Greninja in his set against Colinies.

 

[KirbySquad101]

On Maister's stream MKLeo mentioned he tried going Greninja against Kola, but lost, so he went Byleth after that.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I get what you're saying but people are way too quick to throw characters into high tier just because a player picks them up and does well. Keep in mind his claims that they're top 15 means he's saying they're potentially better than characters like Mario, Cpt. Falcon, Inkling, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Chrom, Bowser, ROB, etc.

Even if she's top 15 many of the characters you mentioned could be top 10 or higher up on top 15, like Mario, Inkling, Roy, and Chrom. I do think she's better than Captain Falcon, Pichu, Falco, Bowser, and ROB though, but it remains to be seen, I suppose.

I don't see myself being optimistic until more than 1-3 players do well with them. I want to at least give it time before making a true final decision.

This situation reminds me a bit of Smash 4 Corrin and Lucina. Many people considered Lucina to be much, much worse than Marth, often putting her 10 or more spots lower than Marth. This was, of course, false, and Lucina was either slightly better or slightly worse than Marth (I'd guess slightly worse at top level, slightly better at high and mid level). Still, many people didn't change their mind about Lucina until ZeRo started playing her as a secondary and Mr. E as a main. Corrin was also underestimated for a long time by the Smashboards community, many putting her in high-mid tier, citing a lack of results. I claimed that when Cosmos would finish school and start traveling people would see what Corrin could do, and well, I was right. Having played her myself and followed the Corrin meta I already knew what she could do and that she had the tools to be high tier, but most people didn't follow Corrin and mostly just viewed majors and such, so they didn't realize how good she truly was until Cosmos started taking names.

Corrin, in this game, has long been a low-mid tier (since 4.0.0, before 4.0.0 she might've been a low tier, her recovery was terrible back then). While she had some players, most notable players moved away from Corrin, which makes sense: Corrin mains generally don't play her because of her personality or because they're fans of her origin game, they play her because she's fun to play and good. Well, low-mid tier Corrin wasn't terrible to play, but she felt... a bit off. Like her numbers were bad, and a number buff would make her good again. Guess what 8.0.0 did? It gave her kill power. It gave her damage. It gave her more safety on aerial pin and f-smash. Corrin, after 8.0.0, is much, much better, and she's almost definitely the most buffed character since Ultimate's release. She might even be the most buffed character from patches in any Smash game, ever (it's either her or Smash 4 Mewtwo).

Does that mean that she's top 15? Wellllll... I don't think she is, personally. Right now, there's no consensus amongst Corrin players: Some think she's top 15 (like Cosmos and SHADIC), some think she's top 20, some top 25, some top 30, and some even top 35. I've noticed that players coming back to Corrin from Smash 4 tend to be a bit more optimistic than players who picked her up in Ultimate (SHADIC being a notable exception), and that solo mains tend to be more optimistic than those that play her as a secondary or together with multiple other characters or don't really use her at all in tournaments. Just an observation. Do I think top 20 is set in stone? No, it's plausible that she's "just" top 25, which is still high tier and viable anyway. I do think she has what it takes to be a top 20 character, though.

I also think she's about as strong or stronger than in 4. The most significant buffs, compared to 4, are her recovery (which is noticeably better, and this also buffs her edgeguarding), her kill power (much stronger), f-smash being much better (both the chainsaw and as a raw move, now being more safe on shield and killing earlier than in 4), pin cancel existing and pin jump being much safer, and her combo game and kill setups (in 4 those were 50/50, now they're true). Oh, and universal ultimate changes, like reduction of landing lag, also benefit her, although perhaps not quite as much as they benefitted Lucina (Lucina is probably slightly better, but not 10 spots much better). The most significant nerfs from 4 are pin kick safety (it travels less far and has more endlag), though at least pin cancel and pin jump are options. And, honestly, if you watch Cosmos or play her yourself you'll notice that she can still get away with pinning unsafely. It's a mixup how you react to pin on shield, and if you guess wrong she could just pin kick you. Unsafe pins are less safe than in 4, but still pretty good, and the reward is better (earlier kills).

Oh, Dragon Fang Shot is a mixed bag. The projectile is much better off-stage, now occasionally killing people. The stun doesn't last as long though, so uncharged shot usually won't lead to optimal bite, though you could either charge the stun slightly or just bite earlier. It takes a while to get used to if you're used to Smash 4 Dragon Fang Shot but overall it's a mixed bag, some buffs and some nerfs. It's still a good move and now you can edgeguard people off-stage with it more effectively.

Her counter is flat out nerfed. I don't think it's a huge deal, since it was kind of overrated in 4 anyway (most good Corrins didn't counter that often), but it's definitely worse now. It probably hurts the most versus Pikachu, since she can no longer just counter Thunder Jolt spam (in 4, it had 1 frame of vulnerability, making it incredibly hard to punish; in Ultimate it's more like a regular counter and much riskier versus projectiles, it also kills much, much later, which isn't a huge deal but makes it worse. I don't think Counter Surge was an important part of her kit in 4 but it's still a move that got strictly worse (I guess the counterattack window is 2 frames longer but that barely matters).

So... Corrin is mostly considered worse because one move got a bit less safe? While she got a ton of other buffs? Yeah... The more I think about it the more I think Corrin is actually better than in 4. Dash attack is also usable now, the reduced endlag means she can sometimes get a fair out of dash attack making it much better, and f-tilt kills which is nice as an emergency kill option. Up-smash is a bit better, down-smash is less laggy (the tipper backwards kills a bit later but 5 frames less endlag is nice and it still kills pretty early). While fair is slower (9 instead of 7 frames) it's probably overall better since it deals more damage and combos better than in 4. Corrin gets a lot out of short hop falling fair.

Note that even if Corrin is better than in 4 that doesn't necessarily mean her tier list position will be relatively higher. The meta has changed, she now has to face potentially losing matchups like Joker and Snake that didn't exist in 4, and Palutena got buffed and might be losing (though some put her in even), and Pikachu got buffed and is definitely losing (though I think it's only slightly losing). Greninja is generally considered to be losing in Ultimate as well, although some think Greninja is even. Fox and Zero Suit Samus were losing in 4 and probably still are. Aside from them, I don't think she really has any losing MUs, but time will tell. That's seven slightly losing MUs, which fits well with my idea that she's top 20.

Some matchups that I currently think are Even but could easily be losing: Captain Falcon (losing in 4, got easier in Ultimate but could be losing I guess), Diddy Kong (losing in 4, got easier), Inkling (Cosmos thinks it's losing, most other Corrins seem to think it's Even from what I've seen but Cosmos used to be an Inkling main so perhaps he's right about Inkling, might be hard to estimate since he's both the best Inkling and the best Corrin, maybe if he plays Space or someone...), Roy (I think it's even but Roy is pretty beastly so could be losing), Sheik (losing in 4, easier now but could still be losing, really hard to juggle her), Shulk (winning in 4, but he got a lot better). So I guess that's... Between 4 and 13 slightly losing MUs? Fox, Joker, Pikachu, and Zero Suit Samus almost definitely losing (I think -1), Greninja, Palutena, and Snake probably losing, Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, Inkling, Roy, Sheik, Shulk possibly losing but I'm leaning Even.

Not everyone will agree with this and some people will list other characters as losing and winning. Right now there's no real consensus overall. SHADIC put Ryu and Mega Man in losing, Cosmos put them in winning, for instance.

Notable matchups that she might win? Bowser, Ike, Mario, Luigi, Mega Man, Min Min, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Pac-Man, Olimar, ROB, Rosalina, Young Link, potentially Peach, potentially Pokémon Trainer, potentially Wario (I have those three as Even right now though). Sonix the Sonic main has struggled vs Corrin online but I'm not sure if we can tag it as winning for Corrin, though it doesn't seem to be impossible for Corrin to win the MU, she has very good tools vs Sonic. For now I peg it as Even.

So... Yeah, I think Corrin is very good, potentially better than in 4. If people think she's worse (as a character, not in the meta) than in 4 I'd like to hear some arguments why that is the case. Based on what I know right now, I think she's likely top 20.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I can safely say that Corrin has a much easier time vs pokemon trainer now. Dragon Fang Shot stops squirtles withdraw in it's tracks and leaves squirtle open to devastating punishes, his/her pin is now dangerous, being hard if not impossible to react to and giving lopsided reward for pulling it off. I also had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of uair combos...with SQUIRTLE! Corrin is now a guessing game on whether he/she will come out with pin right out of the gate, or use it to recover from hitstun, or use it as a bait to force a shield. It's a nightmare to face.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I also think she's about as strong or stronger than in 4. The most significant buffs, compared to 4, are her recovery (which is noticeably better, and this also buffs her edgeguarding), her kill power (much stronger), f-smash being much better (both the chainsaw and as a raw move, now being more safe on shield and killing earlier than in 4), pin cancel existing and pin jump being much safer, and her combo game and kill setups (in 4 those were 50/50, now they're true). Oh, and universal ultimate changes, like reduction of landing lag, also benefit her, although perhaps not quite as much as they benefitted Lucina (Lucina is probably slightly better, but not 10 spots much better). The most significant nerfs from 4 are pin kick safety (it travels less far and has more endlag), though at least pin cancel and pin jump are options. And, honestly, if you watch Cosmos or play her yourself you'll notice that she can still get away with pinning unsafely. It's a mixup how you react to pin on shield, and if you guess wrong she could just pin kick you. Unsafe pins are less safe than in 4, but still pretty good, and the reward is better (earlier kills).

Oh, Dragon Fang Shot is a mixed bag. The projectile is much better off-stage, now occasionally killing people. The stun doesn't last as long though, so uncharged shot usually won't lead to optimal bite, though you could either charge the stun slightly or just bite earlier. It takes a while to get used to if you're used to Smash 4 Dragon Fang Shot but overall it's a mixed bag, some buffs and some nerfs. It's still a good move and now you can edgeguard people off-stage with it more effectively.

Her counter is flat out nerfed. I don't think it's a huge deal, since it was kind of overrated in 4 anyway (most good Corrins didn't counter that often), but it's definitely worse now. It probably hurts the most versus Pikachu, since she can no longer just counter Thunder Jolt spam (in 4, it had 1 frame of vulnerability, making it incredibly hard to punish; in Ultimate it's more like a regular counter and much riskier versus projectiles, it also kills much, much later, which isn't a huge deal but makes it worse. I don't think Counter Surge was an important part of her kit in 4 but it's still a move that got strictly worse (I guess the counterattack window is 2 frames longer but that barely matters).

So... Corrin is mostly considered worse because one move got a bit less safe? While she got a ton of other buffs? Yeah... The more I think about it the more I think Corrin is actually better than in 4. Dash attack is also usable now, the reduced endlag means she can sometimes get a fair out of dash attack making it much better, and f-tilt kills which is nice as an emergency kill option. Up-smash is a bit better, down-smash is less laggy (the tipper backwards kills a bit later but 5 frames less endlag is nice and it still kills pretty early). While fair is slower (9 instead of 7 frames) it's probably overall better since it deals more damage and combos better than in 4. Corrin gets a lot out of short hop falling fair.

I think you are still underselling the nerfs she did receive, as well as the degree of buffs she did got.

Her KO power buffs are actually more of a mixed bag. Some moves did get a notable KO power buff, such as forward tilt, forward smash, up smash, back air, and up air, but moves like down smash, the back kick of Pin, and indirectly up throw thanks to the higher blastzones. It is an overall net improvement in KO power though.

However, some of the buffs the moves you mentioned got, either didn't fully got their issues fixed or are also counterbalanced by another nerf.
In most of these examples: they are moves that technically did get buffed overall from SSB4, but their issues are not fully addressed.

Forward smash is the biggest example. Like you said: the chainsaw is more practical, the move itself has more range, and more KO power. However, the move still has a lot of issues: despite the tipper buff, the move's hitboxes got drastically reduced from SSB4, making it rather easy to low profile, which is also combined with it's projectile priority. Also, the move is still laughably weak when not tippered.

Dash attack: can now combo and connects better. Too bad it's already slow startup is one frame slower, and it is still very unsafe to throw out.

Forward tilt: is now usable as a KO option. It is still a slow overall move and it now has only 2 active frames (as opposed to 3).

Forward air: more damage and less landing lag. Improves it's already good combo tool. Too bad they also nerfed the startup to come out on frame 9 (from frame 7), and the hitbox is still not quite big enough to complement her slow air mobility. Still an overall net buff to the move, but still some issues to iron out.
The latter issue on the hitbox not being quite big enough to complement her mobility also applies to her neutral air, and it is even more glaring there, especially since it still has high amounts of endlag and is less safe on shield. It is an issue that got better in Ultimate, but it is still an issue regardless.

Then there are issues/moves that you claim that are better, but it is not quite the case.

Her recovery is not better than in SSB4, although it is not particularly worse either. Up B travels more distance and has more intangibility, yes, but it also has no horizontal momentum whatsoever. It's vertical recovery is better, but her horizontal recovery is worse, which is further compounded with the changes to airdodges.

Dragon Fang Shot is straight up worse than in SSB4. Sure, the fully charged energy ball itself now has KO power, and the fully-charged bite is even stronger. However, the move is still very slow, so good luck taking advantage of the energy ball's stronger KO power. The startup of the move is also even slower (coming at frame 17 from frame 15), and the paralyze duration as a whole has been reduced. This removes the fully charged version's followup potential, and the uncharged version has issues, especially in lower percents but still prevalent at higher percents, connecting to the bite.

Now the pin. She now has more mixups thanks to a less laggy pin jump and the ability to pin cancel. However, most of the mixups are easily reactable, and each of her options are very unsafe. Pin kicks travel less distance and is much more laggy, as well as the jostle mechanics all making it nearly effortless to punish. Pin jump is less laggy, but it is still very situational as an FAF 30 is still rather slow, and Corrin does not want to be above the opponent.

Having these mixups are nice, and the move remains good. But in SSB4, there was a reason why this was an essential tool to her gameplan: it gave her one of the safest neutral games in the entire game, WHILE being able to KO. Having mixups is nice and all, but being automatically safe and giving her easy stage control to set up her juggles is much, much, MUCH more beneficial. The decrease of her aerials landing lag, as well as the 3 frame jumpsquat, helps somewhat alleviate this, but with her aerial mobility still remaining lacklacker, and her hitboxes not being quite big enough to help compensate, this remains a hole in Corrin's gameplan despite the 8.0 buffs.

Also, despite the KO power buffs to the kicks, they are actually not stronger than in SSB4. Her forward kick is now about as strong as in SSB4, but her back kick still remains laughably weak. Her kicks also has a whiffing issue, but I do admit that this is a nitpick.

I do agree that her counter was a bit overrated than in SSB4, at least after the nerfs. However, her counter is below-average even for a counter's standard now. It is not essential to have a good counter to be good (hello Palutena!), so this is fine, but still...

As you can see, despite the individual improvements to some of her moves, the issues on them that made her reliant on her busted Pin in SSB4 in the first place are still prevalent despite the buffs. Sure she is less dependent on Pin to function in this game, particularly after 8.0, but without the tool that allowed her neutral game to flourish and sew her punish game (and overall gameplan) together, as well as her moves' main core issues not getting fully addressed, as well as some areas of her weaknesses being even weaker than in SSB4, she finds herself lacking in comparison to her SSB4 counterpart.

Take all of that, and add on a lack of KO power and merely average damage output of her pre-8.0 self, then you would see why Corrin was a very lacking character prior to 8.0.

It is a similar case to , who they seem to be better on face value thanks to having received mostly buffs across the board, but end up being worse due to important aspects of their moveset/gameplan being nerfed while none of their core weaknesses got truly addressed despite the buffs.
is the reverse of this situation, as he got mostly nerfs across the board from Brawl to SSB4, but end up being better overall thanks to his main crippling weaknesses being addressed thanks to the engine changes to SSB4 while the main things that made him solid in Brawl being retained.


That being said, I do admit that she is now a solid character in the metagame thanks to the significant improvements to her punish game, as well as the tools she does retain from SSB4. I personally see her in the upper mid tier (I put her around the same level as Luigi, Marth, Mega Man, Pit, Rosalina, and Pichu), but she has some work to do to prove if she is better than the high tiered characters above her who has consistently proven, to this day, that they are deserving of the high tier spot.

FYI, in terms of the most buffed character in Ultimate history, is in second place, with in third place, but definitely takes the cake. Very lacking characters in vanilla Ultimate, buffed to the absolute next dimension in 3.1, further followed-up in 7.0.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I discussed much of the changes (buffs and nerfs) previously in this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-character-impressions-2-0.464762/page-420#post-24032342

I will address some of your points now.

Her KO power buffs are actually more of a mixed bag. Some moves did get a notable KO power buff, such as forward tilt, forward smash, up smash, back air, and up air, but moves like down smash, the back kick of Pin, and indirectly up throw thanks to the higher blastzones. It is an overall net improvement in KO power though.

If we're talking post 8.0.0, I'd say it's pretty significant. Not only is her raw kill power better, she has kill setups as well, can go deeper to edgeguard (and edgeguard with Dragon Fang Shot), f-smash being stronger and safer is pretty significant, and overall she's pretty good at killing now. Down-smash being less laggy probably makes up for the tipper killing later, and it doesn't even kill that late (kills decently early still). Back kick of pin generally wasn't something you'd use to kill people with in 4 anyway (though you could). Up-throw is a result of Rage being gone (which affects everyone) and some ceilings being higher (Town & City and Smashville), but we got some new 180 ceiling stages instead.

Forward smash is the biggest example. Like you said: the chainsaw is more practical, the move itself has more range, and more KO power. However, the move still has a lot of issues: despite the tipper buff, the move's hitboxes got drastically reduced from SSB4, making it rather easy to low profile, which is also combined with it's projectile priority. Also, the move is still laughably weak when not tippered.

I think F-smash is a very, very good move in 8.0.0, much better than in 4. Is it a top 5 f-smash? Perhaps not, though you could make a case for top 15. Is it without flaws? No, it still has projectile priority, as you said, and the sourspot doesn't kill particularly early (though you can use close range Dragon Fang Shot bite for that). As for low profiling, at least you can aim it downwards.

Dash attack: can now combo and connects better. Too bad it's already slow startup is one frame slower, and it is still very unsafe to throw out.

It's a dash attack, they generally aren't that safe (with some exceptions). Still, it has a bit more use now than in 4, at least. Probably not something you should spam anyway, but it's better than in 4. It's not a big deal but it's something.

Her recovery is not better than in SSB4, although it is not particularly worse either. Up B travels more distance and has more intangibility, yes, but it also has no horizontal momentum whatsoever. It's vertical recovery is better, but her horizontal recovery is worse, which is further compounded with the changes to airdodges.

Her recovery is definitely better. Going high is a bit riskier but it's still doable, and she can go much deeper now, making her harder to edgeguard and increasing her chances of surviving if she gets hit while off-stage. You can also control the angle a bit more than in 4, which gives her more options and makes it overall more flexible. It also kills earlier (surprisingly early).

Dragon Fang Shot is straight up worse than in SSB4. Sure, the fully charged energy ball itself now has KO power, and the fully-charged bite is even stronger. However, the move is still very slow, so good luck taking advantage of the energy ball's stronger KO power. The startup of the move is also even slower (coming at frame 17 from frame 15), and the paralyze duration as a whole has been reduced. This removes the fully charged version's followup potential, and the uncharged version has issues, especially in lower percents but still prevalent at higher percents, connecting to the bite.

Some notes here: You can throw it out off-stage to force a jump, aerial, or airdodge, and if they take the hit they might just die or get put in a very poor situation. In 4, this was not the case, and getting hit off-stage was generally not a big deal. Also, something to keep in mind is how DFS works with the rest of her kit: It now true combos from fair at certain %, making it a potent kill confirm. True, it's two frames slower (which does hurt), and it doesn't connect as well (though partial bite still kills earlier than full bite, so you wouldn't want a full bite for killing anyway). The added potential as a kill confirm and an edgeguarding tool is quite valuable, in my opinion. Whether it's overall better of worse is up for debate.

Now the pin. She now has more mixups thanks to a less laggy pin jump and the ability to pin cancel. However, most of the mixups are easily reactable, and each of her options are very unsafe. Pin kicks travel less distance and is much more laggy, as well as the jostle mechanics all making it nearly effortless to punish. Pin jump is less laggy, but it is still very situational as an FAF 30 is still rather slow, and Corrin does not want to be above the opponent.

Something to keep in mind: Most of this was true in Smash 4 as well. Sure, there were some matchups where you could spam pin in neutral and they couldn't do much about it, but those matchups? Mostly low tiers and mid tiers. Against top tiers and high tiers, pin in neutral was a commitment. In Ultimate, it's still a commitment, but she now has more options. I do think pin is overall a bit worse (from a clear S tier to somewhere between S and A), but the increased kill power in kick is very nice. Something to keep in mind about FAF 30 jump: Sure, FAF 30, but you'll be in the air. They have to jump or up-B to catch you, which not every character can do efficiently, especially if they don't react fast enough.

But in SSB4, there was a reason why this was an essential tool to her gameplan: it gave her one of the safest neutral games in the entire game, WHILE being able to KO.

If you asked Corrin mains in 4, most would tell you that instapin was not great as a neutral tool in most relevant matchups. Sure, in some matchups it worked quite well (poor Ness), but even if you didn't get punished for it you gave up quite a bit of stage control. Many characters could also punish it, even in 4. I decided to watch a set between Cosmos and Elegant in 2018, and I noticed that Cosmos died a few times due to not being able to recover, which he would have in Ultimate. Furthermore, while he used pin some, he didn't use it all that much in neutral (and this was against Luigi, not exactly a super fast character) and sometimes when he did pin Luigi's shield, he jumped (which is safer in Ultimate). Pin spam in neutral was not quite as good as many people thinked.

Also, despite the KO power buffs to the kicks, they are actually not stronger than in SSB4. Her forward kick is now about as strong as in SSB4, but her back kick still remains laughably weak.

Where do you get this from? In 4, knockback growth was 90. In Ultimate, it was also 90 prior to 8.0.0, but is now 98 (both forward and backwards), killing around 19% earlier than pre-patch. Also, just from playing Corrin you'll notice that pin kick does kill earlier than in 4. Early back kick is a bit worse but generally you'd kill with forward kick anyway.

Something we haven't touched on, though: Staling. Moves staling on shield is bad for pin, since if you pin a shield you stale it once, and if you also kick a shield you stale it twice. In 4, moves didn't stale on shield, so pinning a shield was fine from a staling perspective. This only matters if you pin a shield though, and if you do you can cancel or jump to only stale it once instead of twice (and jumping is usually safer than kicking a shield anyway).

Her kicks also has a whiffing issue, but I do admit that this is a nitpick.

This was the case in 4 as well. At least now you can cancel pin and down-smash if you know kick won't connect (Cosmos does this sometimes). It's very fake but hey, people still fall for it...

Take all of that, and add on a lack of KO power and merely average damage output of her pre-8.0 self, then you would see why Corrin was a very lacking character prior to 8.0.

Oh, I don't disagree that pre-8.0.0 Corrin was lackluster. Bottom 20, probably. In retrospect, I've come to the conclusion that she wasn't bottom 10 after having looked at her Ultimate tools, but she definitely was significantly worse prior to 8.0.0. Prior to 4.0.0 she might've been bottom 10 though, her recovery was pretty bad back then.

It is a similar case to , who they seem to be better on face value thanks to having received mostly buffs across the board, but end up being worse due to important aspects of their moveset/gameplan being nerfed while none of their core weaknesses got truly addressed despite the buffs.

If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that Corrin is worse because pin isn't as good of a neutral tool? In many relevant MUs, it wasn't that good of a neutral tool in 4 either, though. She was more of a gatekeeper vs low and mid tiers in 4, but that hardly determines viability (she still wins +1 vs most low and mid tiers anyway, when played properly).

That being said, I do admit that she is now a solid character in the metagame thanks to the significant improvements to her punish game, as well as the tools she does retain from SSB4. I personally see her in the upper mid tier (I put her around the same level as Luigi, Marth, Mega Man, Pit, Rosalina, and Pichu), but she has some work to do to prove if she is better than the high tiered characters above her who has consistently proven, to this day, that they are deserving of the high tier spot.

I actually think Mega Man might be top 20 too... And Pichu top 30. And Marth top 25. But I digress. I think she's easily high tier and at least top 25, I personally think she's top 20 but not everyone would agree. SHADIC and Cosmos think top 15, which seems like a bit much to me. Other people have her in top 30, or top 35. Anyway, she's only been buffed for less than two months so it remains to be seen how good she truly is.

FYI, in terms of the most buffed character in Ultimate history, is in second place, with in third place, but definitely takes the cake. Very lacking characters in vanilla Ultimate, buffed to the absolute next dimension in 3.1, further followed-up in 7.0.

Pre-buff Ryu was better than pre-buff Corrin. Post-buff Corrin is better than post-buff Ryu. Ergo, Corrin got buffed more. I'm assuming you think Ryu is better than Corrin right now? I'm inclined to disagree but it's possible I don't know enough about Ryu to estimate, perhaps he's a secret top 20 or top 25 character that I've been sleeping on. Who are the best Ryu players? Sandstorm and Munekin?

 

[TennisBall]

Personally I thought we had well established that Mega Man was a very good character. Great kill confirms, good recovery, excellent zoning game, great damage output, amazing OOS options with Metal Blade, (and now it's been shown they can do a Metal Blade in front, although it's quite difficult.), good top representatives with Kameme and yeti, and being #25 on the OrionStats 2020 TTS, even with results being a bit more difficult to examine since offline tournaments were put on hold.

I am curious what inspired your very pessimistic take on a character that is generally regarded as a very good high tier character, and your reasoning on the matter.