Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

Here's a start.
Give him a grab game that isn't bottom 2.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Here's a start.
Give him a grab game that isn't bottom 2.

That too. He's supposed to be good on the ground, but grab is woefully unrewarding? Come on

 

[meleebrawler]

That too. He's supposed to be good on the ground, but grab is woefully unrewarding? Come on

Grabbing is illegal in boxing. Also wearing boxing gloves can't do good things for your grip.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, grab game is likely to stay bad. The pummel would technically be illegal too, but he does actually need that move to be there. That said, I did a quick search, and it mainly seemed to be again pummeling. Could be wrong though.

Either way, yeah, grabbing a moving target with boxing gloves probably isn't easy.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Grabbing is illegal in boxing. Also wearing boxing gloves can't do good things for your grip.

Who cares about the logic of grabbing with boxing gloves when being terrible in the air is clearly bad enough.
Besides, he punches during his throws which are already meant to be strong.

 

[Arthur97]

Who cares about the logic of grabbing with boxing gloves when being terrible in the air is clearly bad enough.
Besides, he punches during his throws which are already meant to be strong.

Well, Mac's ground moves are actually relatively accurate to boxing I think. They seemed to be going for that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

We have a tournament, at long last, to be looking out for: https://smash.gg/tournament/get-on-my-line-2020-goml-online-fundraiser-1

Get On My Line 2020

It is basically Get On My Level 2020, rebranded to be an online fundraiser tournament. It has among the highest amount of attendees of any online tournament, being 2056 attendees, with a lot of big name players like Tweek, Dabuz, ESAM, BestNess, and more participating.

The Melee bracket of the tournament, also being the biggest online Melee tournament of all time with 1367 entrants, ended yesterday and VODs are getting uploaded as we speak.
The Ultimate bracket begins at July 25th, so this Saturday. We have some days to burn until then, but I like for people to be aware of this anticipated event.

 

[Rizen]

We have a tournament, at long last, to be looking out for: https://smash.gg/tournament/get-on-my-line-2020-goml-online-fundraiser-1

Get On My Line 2020

It is basically Get On My Level 2020, rebranded to be an online fundraiser tournament. It has among the highest amount of attendees of any online tournament, being 2056 attendees, with a lot of big name players like Tweek, Dabuz, ESAM, BestNess, and more participating.

The Melee bracket of the tournament, also being the biggest online Melee tournament of all time with 1367 entrants, ended yesterday and VODs are getting uploaded as we speak.
The Ultimate bracket begins at July 25th, so this Saturday. We have some days to burn until then, but I like for people to be aware of this anticipated event.

That's great because without Nairo around RIP Naifuwars tournaments.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mac doesn't need grabs to be good--no one is looking at Little Mac and saying "What a great character, but what does he do against shield?"

Pretty sure Mac's ground moveset is the lowest overall shield disadvantage of any character in the game. By like, a pretty non-trivial amount.

 

[Myollnir]

I don't know, that seems very mediocre to me in terms of safety on shield.
His F-Smash is pretty good on shield but that's really it.

For instance, has the same start-ups on most of the aforementioned moves (F-Tilt/U-Tilt/D-Tilt/DA) with them being respectively Frame5/4/4/9, and they're -10/11, -10/9, -9 & -31 (ok dash attack is pretty laggy but it goes pretty far and lasts 25 frames, the point is, 's dash attack is pretty punishable by most characters, it hits hard unlike so you have more hitlag to react on cross-ups)

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

One of the big reasons I find shulk to do very well against mac is because shulk can airslash him every time mac touches his shield, regardless of the move. Airslash is frame 10 and absolutely enormous to the point where shield pushback is irrelevant. Other than maybe a charged downward fsmash that you'll never get hit by, every move mac will use is worse than -10 on shield. Then airslash even launches mac offstage depending on his percent and your art, giving shulk an opportunity for an edgeguard.

You do, however, need to be anticipating the attack from mac. All of them will have too little startup to up b completely on reaction.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

Bingo. A decent grab game is a requirement for a good ground game, and as I mentioned before, he punches during his throws.

Instead:
-Forward & Up-Throw are mediocre positioning tools.
-D-Throw doesn't combo unless the opponent screws up.
-B-Throw doesn't kill until around 150% by the ledge, which isn't terrible but that's pretty below average compare to other kill-throws.

He could put up with a poor grab if he actually got anything off his throws.
So where's the logic there.

 

[Arthur97]

Haven't we gone over this? The logic seems to be in basing him off of actual boxing as well, not gameplay. Admittedly they don't always stay so faithful, but, regardless, even if you don't agree with it, don't say there is no logic.

 

[AxelVDP]

Bingo. A decent grab game is a requirement for a good ground game, and as I mentioned before, he punches during his throws.

Instead:
-Forward & Up-Throw are mediocre positioning tools.
-D-Throw doesn't combo unless the opponent screws up.
-B-Throw doesn't kill until around 150% by the ledge, which isn't terrible but that's pretty below average compare to other kill-throws.

He could put up with a poor grab if he actually got anything off his throws.
So where's the logic there.

Having an insane ground game with super good button forces the opponent to shield, which in turn makes grab better than they actually are
Mac's grab is already workable enough, not great by any means but it's not really a necessity, you use grabs to condition the opponent not to shield and get hit by actual attacks

now, if only Mac's ground buttons were really this exceptional...

 

[Thinkaman]

View attachment 279561


I don't know, that seems very mediocre to me in terms of safety on shield.

Mac's 8 ground options have a sum shield disadvantage of -139. That's really good, even before taking into account his decent reach and heavyweight shield damage.

For instance, has the same start-ups on most of the aforementioned moves (F-Tilt/U-Tilt/D-Tilt/DA) with them being respectively Frame5/4/4/9, and they're -10/11, -10/9, -9 & -31

Yes, Kirby has safe tilts. Pikachu has a very safe d-tilt, Sheik has a very safe f-tilt, PAC-MAN has a very safe dash attack, ect.

Little Mac has moderately safe everything, with superior damage (shield damage), reach, and pushback for moves of that safety. Under normal conditions, Little Mac simply does not have to worry about shield drop options on any move except I guess non-reversed d-smash and does not have to worry about short range OoS options on anything except jab and dash attack.

The Venn diagram of things that Little Mac actually fears on shield consists almost entirely of tether grabs (though not Min Min), Shulk, and Jigglypuff/Wario. (Yoshi bair is also a threat if he is facing away.)

(And the calculus changes dramatically when KO Punch is up, obviously.)

One of the big reasons I find shulk to do very well against mac is because shulk can airslash him every time mac touches his shield, regardless of the move. Airslash is frame 10 and absolutely enormous to the point where shield pushback is irrelevant. Other than maybe a charged downward fsmash that you'll never get hit by, every move mac will use is worse than -10 on shield. Then airslash even launches mac offstage depending on his percent and your art, giving shulk an opportunity for an edgeguard.

You do, however, need to be anticipating the attack from mac. All of them will have too little startup to up b completely on reaction.

I'm glad you mentioned Shulk because I have a lot of strong feelings on the Shulk matchup.

You're right that Air Slash is the biggest native OoS option in the game. But I actually don't know how much time Shulk sits in shield in this matchup? And if Shulk does start blocking, especially by an edge, as Mac I'm totally fine letting him do that and letting him sweat. My hair trigger is way better than his, and he doesn't need to burn much for me to start poking or threatining a f-smash shield break.

Meanwhile, Shulk beats Little Mac in so many other ways that it becomes clear why he doesn't need to bother with questionable turtling. There's not many Little Mac vs. Shulk VODs around, but all of them show Shulk being rewarded for his initiative. And that's my experience in the matchup: Little Mac hates Speed, which threatens to turn the tables on that hair-trigger advantage I mentioned earlier and allows Shulk to apply massive threat with his very-good-against-Little-Mac low horizontal throws. And if Shulk messes up and gets caught by a jab or u-tilt, lol jk Shield Monado, Shulk still wins!

I have a very pessimistic outlook on the Shulk matchup. Sol and other Little Macs have listed him as even or near even, and it's one I flat out disagree with. But it's because of Speed and Shield, not because of Shulk sitting around blocking--if he wants to do that and let me control the pace of the match, I'd consider that a vast improvement.

(FYI, the smash.gg data suggests that it's indeed a below-average matchup for Mac (48.5%), but not as bad as other swords, Pit, Ridley, or a couple others. I wouldn't read too much into this though either way; I'd assume data points like this are especially low quality, because even though Shulk and Little Mac have above-average usage, both characters feature bigger than normal sensitivity to mastery so we should treat it with the skepticism of a data point between two rarely used characters.)

 

[|RK|]

Kirby's 13 frame fair oos punishes just about everything Mac does with the exception of like... cross up dash attack? Which takes a bair.

It probably depends on the character he's facing, but his shield safety is pretty rough. There are tons of characters that have safer buttons vs shield.

He can't properly frame trap, even, because his laggy moves don't force the opponent to guess/don't make them feel like they're locked into shield.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mac's 8 ground options have a sum shield disadvantage of -139. That's really good, even before taking into account his decent reach and heavyweight shield damage.




Yes, Kirby has safe tilts. Pikachu has a very safe d-tilt, Sheik has a very safe f-tilt, PAC-MAN has a very safe dash attack, ect.

Little Mac has moderately safe everything, with superior damage (shield damage), reach, and pushback for moves of that safety. Under normal conditions, Little Mac simply does not have to worry about shield drop options on any move except I guess non-reversed d-smash and does not have to worry about short range OoS options on anything except jab and dash attack.

The Venn diagram of things that Little Mac actually fears on shield consists almost entirely of tether grabs (though not Min Min), Shulk, and Jigglypuff/Wario. (Yoshi bair is also a threat if he is facing away.)

(And the calculus changes dramatically when KO Punch is up, obviously.)



I'm glad you mentioned Shulk because I have a lot of strong feelings on the Shulk matchup.

You're right that Air Slash is the biggest native OoS option in the game. But I actually don't know how much time Shulk sits in shield in this matchup? And if Shulk does start blocking, especially by an edge, as Mac I'm totally fine letting him do that and letting him sweat. My hair trigger is way better than his, and he doesn't need to burn much for me to start poking or threatining a f-smash shield break.

Meanwhile, Shulk beats Little Mac in so many other ways that it becomes clear why he doesn't need to bother with questionable turtling. There's not many Little Mac vs. Shulk VODs around, but all of them show Shulk being rewarded for his initiative. And that's my experience in the matchup: Little Mac hates Speed, which threatens to turn the tables on that hair-trigger advantage I mentioned earlier and allows Shulk to apply massive threat with his very-good-against-Little-Mac low horizontal throws. And if Shulk messes up and gets caught by a jab or u-tilt, lol jk Shield Monado, Shulk still wins!

I have a very pessimistic outlook on the Shulk matchup. Sol and other Little Macs have listed him as even or near even, and it's one I flat out disagree with. But it's because of Speed and Shield, not because of Shulk sitting around blocking--if he wants to do that and let me control the pace of the match, I'd consider that a vast improvement.

(FYI, the smash.gg data suggests that it's indeed a below-average matchup for Mac (48.5%), but not as bad as other swords, Pit, Ridley, or a couple others. I wouldn't read too much into this though either way; I'd assume data points like this are especially low quality, because even though Shulk and Little Mac have above-average usage, both characters feature bigger than normal sensitivity to mastery so we should treat it with the skepticism of a data point between two rarely used characters.)

Aw who are we kidding. Given the choice between having a small handful of amazing tools and mediocre to bad everything else versus good to average tools everywhere, people will always gravitate to the former assuming equal viability. The latter has to repeatedly and demonstrably prove better to be picked more. Because otherwise it's easier to win learning 5 moves than 24.

 

[Thinkaman]

Aw who are we kidding. Given the choice between having a small handful of amazing tools and mediocre to bad everything else versus good to average tools everywhere, people will always gravitate to the former assuming equal viability. The latter has to repeatedly and demonstrably prove better to be picked more. Because otherwise it's easier to win learning 5 moves than 24.

Ergo why nobody plays Banjo.

We saw this with Smash 4 Mac vs. Ultimate Mac. Optimized Smash 4 Mac increasingly focused on specific tilt followups, to the point of sometimes feeling like a d-tilt to up-b one-trick pony. In Ultimate, he lost that for a variety of (often trivial) buffs, but more importantly an engine that dramatically benefited his tools. (Any ground option out of dash???) Speaking as someone who broke top 100 at EVO with Smash 4 Mac, I'm pretty firmly convinced that 1.0.0 Ultimate Little Mac was slightly better than Smash 4 Little Mac overall, but considerably harder to play.

The bigger issue is that any Ultimate stage list is considerably worse for Mac than the typical Smash 4 stage list. This more than invalidates any mechnical improvement to the character himself except as a pure counterpick.


FYI, the polar opposite is Jigglypuff. She got a lot of great buffs and is fine with the stage situation, but hates almost every engine change in Ultimate with all of her soul.

I have long wondered how good Ultimate Jigglypuff would be if you just gave her Smash 4 air dodge.

 

[DougEfresh]

Ergo why nobody plays Banjo.

Hi, I'm right here

 

[meleebrawler]

Ergo why nobody plays Banjo.

We saw this with Smash 4 Mac vs. Ultimate Mac. Optimized Smash 4 Mac increasingly focused on specific tilt followups, to the point of sometimes feeling like a d-tilt to up-b one-trick pony. In Ultimate, he lost that for a variety of (often trivial) buffs, but more importantly an engine that dramatically benefited his tools. (Any ground option out of dash???) Speaking as someone who broke top 100 at EVO with Smash 4 Mac, I'm pretty firmly convinced that 1.0.0 Ultimate Little Mac was slightly better than Smash 4 Little Mac overall, but considerably harder to play.

The bigger issue is that any Ultimate stage list is considerably worse for Mac than the typical Smash 4 stage list. This more than invalidates any mechnical improvement to the character himself except as a pure counterpick.


FYI, the polar opposite is Jigglypuff. She got a lot of great buffs and is fine with the stage situation, but hates almost every engine change in Ultimate with all of her soul.

I have long wondered how good Ultimate Jigglypuff would be if you just gave her Smash 4 air dodge.

Feels like half of the Smash 4 cast ended up depending on small sets of tools with the rest being means to those ends.

Not as egregious as most, but you'd be lying if your biggest goal at low percents wasn't that dthrow-utilt.

Her luma jab can invalidate approaches. Alternatively, lunar land those nairs to approach.

Ladder or bust.

Prototype grapplers.

Fruit Twitter combos.

Are you going to dash attack or grab?

Like Little Mac, down tilt combos are the main thing to develop.

It's not necessarily optimal, but damn if using only invincible spin dashes coupled with the odd dash grab is good for tilting.


Is it really that surpring that early Ultimate meta dismissed and while took it by storm?

 

[blackghost]

Is it really that surpring that early Ultimate meta dismissed and while took it by storm?

every fighting game and even some nonfighting games players start a new game trying to play it like the previous game. and it almost never works long term. but to be fair Ike was said by leo and people here that he wasnt going to last at his place. (but to be fair people also said bowser wouldnt last)

 

[Thinkaman]

Feels like half of the Smash 4 cast ended up depending on small sets of tools with the rest being means to those ends.

Not as egregious as most, but you'd be lying if your biggest goal at low percents wasn't that dthrow-utilt.

Between this and rage up-b/usmash kills, Smash 4 Mario had half his gameplan written for him.

Diddy was frankly similar, both before and after patches.

Like Little Mac, down tilt combos are the main thing to develop.

Good comparison--the local Mewtwo main feels similar about Mewtwo's transition as I do about Mac's, with the exception that Mewtwo clearly ended up worse--he didn't have the entire engine changing to fit his desires. He just became a better designed, more well-rounded character who wasn't as good. Curious to see where 8.0.0 Mewtwo ends up.

Is it really that surpring that early Ultimate meta dismissed and while took it by storm?

I know, right?

 

[meleebrawler]

Between this and rage up-b/usmash kills, Smash 4 Mario had half his gameplan written for him.

Diddy was frankly similar, both before and after patches.



Good comparison--the local Mewtwo main feels similar about Mewtwo's transition as I do about Mac's, with the exception that Mewtwo clearly ended up worse--he didn't have the entire engine changing to fit his desires. He just became a better designed, more well-rounded character who wasn't as good. Curious to see where 8.0.0 Mewtwo ends up.



I know, right?

Sadly people will never be interested in playing glass cannons like Mewtwo or Ridley unless they completely dominate, or at least severely outclass a large portion of a roster in every possible field besides the theoretical one of taking hits. The only other way around that is to make them a souped-up version of an existing archetype, like Akuma, or Pichu before the nerfs.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Glass cannons are inconsistent by their very nature. Void was planning on dropping Pichu even before the nerfs, because playing Pichu was too stressful at top level. It's easy to see why Joker, Mario, Pokemon Trainer, Bowser, Yoshi, and Palutena are popular and/or do well. They're consistently very good.

 

[blackghost]

people play glass cannons when there is actually a 'cannon' part. ridley isnt any sort of canon and mewtwo is more like a glass cruise ship with that tail.

smash has been around long enough for us to know being big sucks and being slow sucks. but smash ultimate is the first time we have a big character that doesnt hurt. factor in ridley being lighter than most think he should be and you have little incentive to play him. nostalgia bait and pleading for years doesnt help a character see competitive play traits do.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Not-Actually-Hot-Take: There is not a single character in the game that "needs" movement changes or recovery changes to be a balanced, or even high-tier, character. No character in this game actually has a garbage neutral or hopeless disadvantage, and asserting otherwise reveals a lack of perspective.

In theory: Yes.

Will it ever happen: Hell no.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

when there is actually a 'cannon' part. ridley isnt any sort of canon

Uh....

Ridley kills VERY early, either through edgeguards or raw power. He can also rack up damage quickly.

I'm not sure why you think he isn't a "canon" exactly. His offensive power is universally agreed to be his main strength.

 

[Arthur97]

Seriously, is Ridley actually one of the earliest killers in the games?

 

[StrangeKitten]

Seriously, is Ridley actually one of the earliest killers in the games?

Probably. Up smash is massive, f-smash is dummy strong, Space Pirate Rush is a solid command grab with good kill power, and he's one of the best edgeguarders between a huge nair and fireballs

 

[Lacrimosa]

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1285773022788554752

Thought this would be interesting to see.
The way they measured this is...interesting, though:

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1285822510785798147

 

[FruitLoop]

Ridley Forward-Smash 2 frame make me sad about today's society.

 

[DJ3DS]

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1285773022788554752

Thought this would be interesting to see.
The way they measured this is...interesting, though:

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1285822510785798147

Yeah it unfortunately doesn't tell us too much thanks to that. As a fairly extreme example, ROBs huge base accounts for much of his grab range, meaning that his effective grab range is substantially worse than this list would make it seem.

 

[Arthur97]

Probably. Up smash is massive, f-smash is dummy strong, Space Pirate Rush is a solid command grab with good kill power, and he's one of the best edgeguarders between a huge nair and fireballs

Unfortunately, I didn't find the knockback list for forward smashes in Ultimate, but I imagine Ridley's is one of the strongest. Though, I think the range is a bit deceptively short. Though, it's also not as slow as, say, Dedede's. For it's power, it's not that slow.

Ridley Forward-Smash 2 frame make me sad about today's society.

That's a thing?

 

[FruitLoop]

Unfortunately, I didn't find the knockback list for forward smashes in Ultimate, but I imagine Ridley's is one of the strongest. Though, I think the range is a bit deceptively short. Though, it's also not as slow as, say, Dedede's. For it's power, it's not that slow.

That's a thing?

Yes, yes it is. Not sure if it works on the ENTIRE cast but it certainly works on a lot of chars.

 

[StrangeKitten]

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1285773022788554752

Thought this would be interesting to see.
The way they measured this is...interesting, though:

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1285822510785798147

Ooh yay an excuse to complain about this some more!

I am once again asking for a buff to grab ranges to all characters other than tetherers and Palu and Pika. End stubby t-rex arms!

 

[MrGameguycolor]

That's a thing?

Eh...

Spoiler: Ridley F-Smash Hitbox

I can see it I guess...

 

[adom4]

Unfortunately, I didn't find the knockback list for forward smashes in Ultimate, but I imagine Ridley's is one of the strongest. Though, I think the range is a bit deceptively short. Though, it's also not as slow as, say, Dedede's. For it's power, it's not that slow.

That's a thing?

Fsmash 2 frames some characters ( are some that come to mind), it's not as consistent as Dsmash or Ftilt which is the safest option but it's much stronger,

 

[Thinkaman]

Unfortunately, I didn't find the knockback list for forward smashes in Ultimate, but I imagine Ridley's is one of the strongest. Though, I think the range is a bit deceptively short. Though, it's also not as slow as, say, Dedede's. For it's power, it's not that slow.

Yes and no--Ridley f-smash is a unique attack that is strong in unconventional places.

It's not actually that high knockback. The damage (20%) is okay, and the speed (18f) is okay, and the ratio there is better than average but nothing to write home about. The knockback scaling (total, damage included) is actually surprisingly poor, worse than a wide variety of characters. (Such as unbuffed Wii Fit Trainer!)

But now the good news:

• First, the base knockback is terrific.
• Second, most moves with terrific base knockback hit at a higher angle. Ridely hits at the "Sakurai angle", which is lower than any of these except Byleth.
• Third, of those rare characters that DO hit with great base knockback at low angles (Byleth, Belmonts, DDD, Roy/Chrom, Marth, Ness), all have specfic hitbox constraints. Ridley doesn't. In fact, Ridley's massive size 7.0 hitbox is one of the biggest on any smash attack in the game. While Ridley's animation might mean he's holding some of that range back, that just makes it all the easier to catch rolls or aerial opponents.
• Finally, Ridley f-smash is only a 53 frame commitment.

(And what do all 4 of those strengths have in common? They make a move great to use near the ledge!)

Ridley f-smash is a lot like Charizard's, except 4 frames faster, 1 damage more, a much better angle, 16.67% bigger, and with 14 frames less commitment that make it -22 on block instead of -36. (Charizard's does have his signature 5 frames of invincibility, to be fair.)

You could also compare it to Wario's, which has more knockback scaling but terrible base, less than half the area in size, and 12 frames more commitment. Either way, Ridley f-smash is way ahead of anything similar to it.

FYI, the highest knockback growth moves in the game, outside of counters, items, spirits, or shenanigans like that, are:

1. Warlock Punch (reversed and/or aerial)
2. Flare Blade (max)
3. KO Punch
4. Hero f-smash Crit
5. Aymr
6. Eruption (max)
7. Straight Lunge (max)

As for who has the strongest f-smashes beyond those 7 super options:

1. (Revenge--any amount)
2. 
   
3. (Deep Breathing--full/fresh)
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. (angled up)
7. 
8. (Smash Monado)
9. 
   
10. 
11. 
    
12. 
    
13. 
    
14. 
    
15. (angled straight)
16. 
    
17. (Megawatt)
18. (angled up)
19. 
    
20. 
    
21. 
    
22. 

This starts getting down into the territory of non-f-smash "really strong moves", like Ganon u-tilt/fair, Falcon Punch, Hatchet Man, Wonderwing, Buster Wolf, ect.

Special mention to Giant Punch, Exploding Side Kick, Rest, and Luigi up-b, which are nearly as strong as the best f-smashes, but not quite. Villager's tree is also up there.

Shoutouts to , who has the 2nd strongest f-smash in the game (only behind Bowser) ignoring buffs. All on a 15f move with only 47 frames of commitment, crazy stuff.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Incineroar's f-smash must be tippered, but yeah, it can kill at like 40 at ledge if tippered

 

[Thinkaman]

Incineroar's f-smash must be tippered, but yeah, it can kill at like 40 at ledge if tippered

Yeah, all of those listed are assuming the strongest hitbox of the move. And charging is just an across-the-board proportional damage (knockback growth) increase for everoyne except Bayo. (Bayo only has a 1.2x multiplier instead of 1.4x)