Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DJ3DS]

I'm probably a little bias, but I think everyone is probably a little bias. Any main of any character is going to think their character is better than non-mains think.

I don't think this is a hard and fast rule - indeed I think a lot of mains of more successful characters actually are biased the other way. I include myself in that! When you've firsthand experience losing as the character it's easy to weight the negatives disproportionately and cloud it with personal bias. I definitely have a lower than average opinion of ROB, for example.

 

[Minix0]

I don't think this is a hard and fast rule - indeed I think a lot of mains of more successful characters actually are biased the other way. I include myself in that! When you've firsthand experience losing as the character it's easy to weight the negatives disproportionately and cloud it with personal bias. I definitely have a lower than average opinion of ROB, for example.

True, everyone is different, good point. But then again I was generalizing.

Did you play any decent Corrin players after the Corrin buffs? I don't see how Ridley could remotely be +2 vs Corrin, why do you think the matchup is so bad, after the massive Corrin buffs?

So this was mostly based on my knowledge of pre-patch Corrin, so this can definitely change, and in retrospect +1 might be more accurate now, but nonetheless, Corrin's recovery is linear and incredibly exploitable, just what Ridley loves. He's an incredibly easy character to edgeguard.

Aside from that, Corrin has nothing to shut down Ridley's tools. He has a projectile, but a single, slow one. He has a counter to hurt Ridley's recovery chances, but launches at an angle that for the most part is beneficial for Ridley and aside from that can't edgeguard him incredibly well. He has range, but Ridley has more (dilt, uptilt, ftilt, upsmash, nair, bair, uair, fair to some extent, side-b for tech chases). He has slow mobility, so Ridley can get in his face pretty quick. It won't take much to knock Corrin off stage and get an easy edgeguard. Corrin isn't super heavy either, so big strong moves like upsmash, fsmash, bair, uair, or even his own recovery will knock him quite the distance and get early kills. Overall, Ridley has multiple things to mess with Corrin but Corrin has very little to mess with him.

I don't really have a high opinion of Corrin or his tools, so the +2 came from my former knowledge of the character since patch 8.0 is fresh, but even with that, I don't see Corrin becoming an even match up, so he'd at most fall to +1. But we'll see I suppose.

And no, I haven't played a super good Corrin, but even with that, I don't see how the above becomes obsolete against a good Corrin.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fair enough. Well, I've never played a super, super good ZSS, so I can't speak for sure, but in theory she doesn't necessarily crush Ridley. Ridley's biggest problem matchups are ones where he:

1) Gets trapped in long, deadly combos, consistently.

2) Is unable to edgeguard his opponent well

3) Is suffocated by projectiles, his main weakness.

Theoretically, in a match between two players of similar skill, I only see ZSS successfully and consistently fulfilling the first option. Although, ZSS is probably somewhat difficult to edgeguard compared to say, Dr. Mario, her up-b travels little distance so in theory it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Not to mention she doesn't really shut down at range, only up close, and Ridley's got her outranged. Ridley by no means wins, but I have a hard time saying its his worst when she doesn't really do anything worse than the rest of the cast.

I mean. Flip Jump is one of the best recovery moves in the game.

I'd say she easily does 1 and 2.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinker: Realizing that and are underrepresented in usage (due to an obvious substitution effect) should be exactly the sort of thing theory-based lists are ideal for correcting.

Yet they are historically, and often continue to be, just as underrated on tier lists as they are in usage and results numbers.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Thinker: Realizing that and are underrepresented in usage (due to an obvious substitution effect) should be exactly the sort of thing theory-based lists are ideal for correcting.

Yet they are historically, and often continue to be, just as underrated on tier lists as they are in usage and results numbers.

Speaking of Dr. Mario, Tsumusuto, the best Dr. Mario player in Japan (and I'm pretty sure he's the best Doc solo-main in the world as well currently) released a matchup chart for him today and I think it shows Doc as being a much better character than people in America usually regard him.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I feel like it's worth noting that Japan's meta is much more defensive than America's and certain characters are viewed much more positively or negatively there because of that, something this list from 7.0 reflects to some degree. Even though I'd say that Doc is most likely better in a more defensive meta than an offensive one due to his solid punish game and anti-zoning tools, Tsumusuto's chart still seems to reflect him as a much better character than he is usually regarded as, even in Japan, when looking at the tier list made by top Japanese players from 7.0.

There are a few specific characters I think are worth noting the placements of in this list:

• Tsumusuto thinks and are slightly winning matchups for Doc. It seems to be generally accepted by most Dr. Mario players that these matchups are even or slight Doc favored, while most Pika and Pichu players (at least in America) still seem to believe it to be in their favor. I personally can see both of these matchups being even, and I can see Doc maybe winning slightly against Pichu specifically. I'm not that convinced Doc wins against Pika though. Doc can deal with Pika fairly well onstage, can play neutral well enough, isn't too easy to combo, combo and kill Pika fairly well, and deal with t-jolt better than most of the cast, but Doc can't be offstage in this matchup. If Pika manages to find a way to get you offstage, you're likely dead no matter what percent you're at.
• He has in even. Not much to say other than this continues the trend of Doc and Ganon mains not being able to agree which characters wins/loses this matchup or if it's just even.
• Tsumusto views as Doc's best matchup, which I agree with. Doc can deal with Aura Sphere, stuff out his approaches (despite Lucario's fast air speed), keep Lucario in disadvantage, play neutral well, and he kills Lucario really early. Back throw or up-b near the ledge can start killing Lucario around 100%, which prevents him from getting to percents where he has consistent kill options. Even Lucario's edgeguarding options against Doc aren't all that good. B-air has a fairly small hitbox, and d-air isn't all that threatening until Lucario gets to higher percents. A lack of a meteor smash also hurts Lucario's edgeguarding game in this matchup as well.

There are some characters I don't have as much to say regarding, but I think it's still worth noting where they are on this list:

with specifically being the one that stands out the most to me.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of Dr. Mario, Tsumusuto, the best Dr. Mario player in Japan (and I'm pretty sure he's the best Doc solo-main in the world as well currently) released a matchup chart for him today and I think it shows Doc as being a much better character than people in America usually regard him.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I feel like it's worth noting that Japan's meta is much more defensive than America's and certain characters are viewed much more positively or negatively there because of that, something this list from 7.0 reflects to some degree. Even though I'd say that Doc is most likely better in a more defensive meta than an offensive one due to his solid punish game and anti-zoning tools, Tsumusuto's chart still seems to reflect him as a much better character than he is usually regarded as, even in Japan, when looking at the tier list made by top Japanese players from 7.0.

There are a few specific characters I think are worth noting the placements of in this list:

• Tsumusuto thinks and are slightly winning matchups for Doc. It seems to be generally accepted by most Dr. Mario players that these matchups are even or slight Doc favored, while most Pika and Pichu players (at least in America) still seem to believe it to be in their favor. I personally can see both of these matchups being even, and I can see Doc maybe winning slightly against Pichu specifically. I'm not that convinced Doc wins against Pika though. Doc can deal with Pika fairly well onstage, can play neutral well enough, isn't too easy to combo, combo and kill Pika fairly well, and deal with t-jolt better than most of the cast, but Doc can't be offstage in this matchup. If Pika manages to find a way to get you offstage, you're likely dead no matter what percent you're at.
• He has in even. Not much to say other than this continues the trend of Doc and Ganon mains not being able to agree which characters wins/loses this matchup or if it's just even.
• Tsumusto views as Doc's best matchup, which I agree with. Doc can deal with Aura Sphere, stuff out his approaches (despite Lucario's fast air speed), keep Lucario in disadvantage, play neutral well, and he kills Lucario really early. Back throw or up-b near the ledge can start killing Lucario around 100%, which prevents him from getting to percents where he has consistent kill options. Even Lucario's edgeguarding options against Doc aren't all that good. B-air has a fairly small hitbox, and d-air isn't all that threatening until Lucario gets to higher percents. A lack of a meteor smash also hurts Lucario's edgeguarding game in this matchup as well.

There are some characters I don't have as much to say regarding, but I think it's still worth noting where they are on this list:

with specifically being the one that stands out the most to me.

I find this MU chart slightly optimistic when stacked against my own MU chart. vs might have been slightly in Doc's favor before YL was buffed. At the time YL had a f6 jab and his Zair had terrible reward, 4.5%iirc with no combo potential. But now YL's jab is f4 and Zair combos into DA. These 2 changes, along with a few power buffs, made YL a much more solid character at close range. He actually has a good jab to use as a GTFO move and a Zair to zone characters with reflectors, like Doc's sheet. The Marios capes are some of the best reflectors vs YL because their very low commitment, and flipping recoveries is nice too. Doc can freely flip YL's projectiles back at him and he out buttons YL anytime in CQC so he has good tools in the MU. But now YL has good answers for them as Zair can't be reflected. IMO now it's even or slightly in YL's favor.
IMO has a solid advantage vs Doc. Doc does not have Mario's mobility and can have a lot of trouble getting past Link's big sword.

I think 's a significantly better character than Doc. For reference I think he beats both Link and YL +1. He's a lot better and chasing them down and slipping past their zoning.

 

[Nobie]

Sharpy is a better Incineroar than just about anyone, but I do feel like his standards are too high as to what Incineroar buffs should be doing. I feel like he's not alone, either.

People seem to want buffs that will flip matchups or push them well into even territory, and I think even easing matchups a little (taking some from a -2 to a -1, for example) would be considered a successful patch overall.

Incineroar should not get speed or movement buffs. That defeats the purpose of the character. If it's going to get any speed changes, it should be to attack speed, because the whole point is that Incineroar has a hard time getting in. This is why I think the buffs were the right direction: improving grab speed, Revenge, and Alolan Whip are all based around letting it win more interactions once Incineroar actually gets in range to interact.

The forward throw buff is a brilliant buff, I think, because it essentially gives Incineroar a THIRD kill throw that it didn't have before, and makes stage position a significantly less important factor. In any given spot, Incineroar probably has a throw that'll take the opponent out, and it makes DI-ing trickier because you might be ready to DI up throw but not forward throw, or back throw but not up throw.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think the problem is, will ever be decent if he always has such a hard time getting in? Buffing movement speed to somewhere around Robin would keep the character slow, but getting in wouldn't be as much of a headache, and he'd be a lot better at stringing moves together, granting more reward for when you finally do get in

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the problem is, will ever be decent if he always has such a hard time getting in? Buffing movement speed to somewhere around Robin would keep the character slow, but getting in wouldn't be as much of a headache, and he'd be a lot better at stringing moves together, granting more reward for when you finally do get in

Incineroar doesn't exactly have trouble stringing effective combos together as it is, and I don't think a meager speed buff will do much to change that. Were you hoping for him to be like Bowser and DK with their lateral strings? We can't just make all close combat heavies like them, and they don't have the benefits of being not so big-boned and Revenge.

 

[DougEfresh]

Speaking of Dr. Mario, Tsumusuto, the best Dr. Mario player in Japan (and I'm pretty sure he's the best Doc solo-main in the world as well currently) released a matchup chart for him today and I think it shows Doc as being a much better character than people in America usually regard him.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

• Tsumusto views as Doc's best matchup, which I agree with. Doc can deal with Aura Sphere, stuff out his approaches (despite Lucario's fast air speed), keep Lucario in disadvantage, play neutral well, and he kills Lucario really early. Back throw or up-b near the ledge can start killing Lucario around 100%, which prevents him from getting to percents where he has consistent kill options. Even Lucario's edgeguarding options against Doc aren't all that good. B-air has a fairly small hitbox, and d-air isn't all that threatening until Lucario gets to higher percents. A lack of a meteor smash also hurts Lucario's edgeguarding game in this matchup as well.

Not too long ago, I very briefly and vaguely touched on my thoughts of the / match up as an addendum to my best/worst MU for each character discussion that Rizen brought up (since I believe you had mentioned earlier that Lucario was Doc's best MU at that time as well).

Since it's relevant, I'll elaborate on my contrasting viewpoint a bit (though doc isn't too common and I probably haven't fought a good enough one yet to have a fully informed opinion based on personal MU experience):

-Sheet and pills are certainly effective tools for dealing with aura sphere in the way Lucario is generally accustomed to using it in neutral, but we can still adjust and either use smaller aura spheres or keep it more as a movement tool and as a bait for side b to help our punish game against doc. He also has to be a bit careful using pills too mindlessly because we can double team them rather easily if used predictably.

- Doc's frame data and several potent kill options are certainly threatening to us, but Imo that doesn't matter a whole lot when still has to approach to get anything significant started as a result of poor mobility and range. I don't think we have to approach all that much (and we certainly shouldn't since getting too aggressive in this MU leads to early deaths) and definitely think intelligent mobility camping against him can be very helpful. We do have to watch how we pressure his shield due to his very strong OOS options, however.

- I'm uncertain what tools, if any, Doc has that are good for getting off ledge, but our ledge trapping with aura sphere is generally pretty good and could prove to be another good thing to use in the match up (might have to watch out for ledge drop DJ sheet as a call out on complacent AS throws in the corner though).

-As far as edgeguarding is concerned, dair can still be fairly potent, especially against Doc, even at modest percents. We have to respect doc tornado as a recovery resource and not get too greedy, but after that's used, I think Lucario can have at it with him off-stage with good timing and execution. I actually think nair is the better edgeguarding/gimping tool for Luc against Doc though, because it's a bigger hitbox that's active for longer. Even if it doesn't send that far, it should generally get the job done just because Doc's recovery is that poor overall.

Without knowing of high level VODs to study for this match up, I'd gander it's in the "even or -1" category, more realistically somewhere in the middle at -0.5 Imo. I think our mobility is a big saving grace against Doc, and our edgeguarding options, while admittedly rather limited and not as free compared to much of the cast, is sufficient enough to exploit him off-stage with reasonable consistency.

 

[Ffamran]

Very late replies.

It's like they took some of the better parts of Brawl and S4, and incorporated them into Ult.

Melee as well. Using Dair as a hit confirm was possible before 8.0.0, but not as well as now with the lower landing lag of 12 frames allowing Falco to land without auto-canceling Dair and be able to follow-up if not straight up combo from Dair. That reminds me of Melee Dair more than Smash 4 and Brawl. With Brawl, I don't know if Dair could be used like in Melee and Ultimate or if it was worth it. 12 landing frames is the same as Brawl Dair and it is 3 frames longer than L-canceled Melee Dair; Melee Dair's regular landing frames is 18 frames. With Smash 4 giving it different hit angles for when hitting a grounded target or an airborne target and Ultimate giving different knockback values to for when hitting a grounded target and for hitting an airborne target, they help in giving the right knockback for him. Grounded targets not being spiked also prevent them from teching like in Melee where that quality if I recall correctly was due to an oversight with the game not recognizing its hit angle as a spike. Shaving 2 landing frames brings it closer to what he could do with Melee Dair. He can't pillar like in Melee, but it's close.

For me, I feel like Ultimate Falco took Smash 4 Falco as the base and Melee and Brawl Falco were used as reference or as the cap of what they should not exceed in the cases of moves like Melee Dair, Melee/Brawl Blaster, and Brawl Falco Phantasm's travel speed. In addition to that were more unique changes such as Ftilt gaining a considerable increase to its base knockback at the cost of damage and growth and 8.0.0 grounded Falco Phantasm's startup reduction. Although, there were some stumbles on the way which for me was launch Ultimate Dtilt's higher startup and Up Smash's second animation change to Captain Falcon's Up Smash from Nash's Somersault Shell he had in Smash 4. The former was brought back (closer) to the previous games while the latter is being tuned up. I swear if the eventual next Smash game changes his Up Smash again. Let's see, Genocide Cutter or some bull**** where he does a flash kick of some sort, back flip or front flip, into a midair axe kick similar to Kim Kaphwan.

One minor note, Falco Phantasm has the same total frames as the grounded version - if you land on the ground. If you do it off stage, you will have a total of 66 frames. The aerial version has slower startup, but it makes for a safer, better combo tool. The grounded version is just a stupid good burst option now.

So, if you do the instant aerial Phantasm, you will still benefit from drastically reduced endlag, despite slower startup.

It came to mind when I read this a while ago, but this made me think of other fighting games with I don't know what you would call them, but special moves that move you forward. I don't think you would call them burst movement in those games. Anyway, moves like Akuma's Hyakkishu (Demon Flip), the shotos' Tatsumaki, or Kyo Kusanagi's RED Kick. Or special moves in general. The point is that the startup (timing), travel distance, power, and other qualities of the special move can be controlled. Falco now has that quality with ground Phantasm's startup reduction where he, for startup, can choose a faster Phantasm on the ground or a slower Phantasm with instant aerial Phantasm or perhaps not and use it after a time from a hop or jump.

I'm interested to see where Fatality takes this character. As a top 20 Smash 4 player, we don't have anyone with this tier of pedigree in a position to make a splash with one of the buffed characters (ignoring Marth), unless:

• Cosmos actually goes
• Wadi follows through on or
• We have an resurgence
• A dark horse picks up

All of those are unknown possibilities, but we know that Fatality is 100% pedal to the metal on Falcon. So at our current confidence intervals, that is our biggest anticipated top-level shakeup.

In regards to a dark horse picking up Falco, I'm sure it was discussed before and this applies to any character really, but I would still like to make a note of this: Falco needs presence which if not international, then relevant presence. How relevant would be defined is up to the person and it could be the same as international to some.

I am going to use what happened with Tekken recently where Pakistan was put on the map. People heard or perhaps even knew that Pakistani Tekken players were good, but there was not much of a presence until Arslan Ash was able to attend not just one high profile tournament, but multiple ones with his victory at EVO Japan 2019 being a prominent turning point for the Pakistani scene. Even then people were skeptical, but after Chikurin's and Knee's visits and later, other players from Pakistan being able to attend outside tournaments, people were convinced of Pakistan. As far as I know or remember and prior to the coronavirus pandemic restricting many things, Pakistan's scene is primarily local, so arcades, which people figured could be a factor for preventing poor habits that could be picked up from playing too much online and they developed their own style for Tekken of being able to pressure very well, but also defend well too. The only issue was exposure. They were isolated.

This is the same thing that Falco or any character needs to address: spotlight exposure at least at a high level. Some player can be the best Falco in the world, but if that player doesn't travel anywhere or isn't already under a spotlight, then it doesn't mean anything. That player is just another nobody, a no name, from nowhere and who cares. Seven comes to mind if anyone remembers him. Before I continue on, I have not followed Smash for a while, so I am not up to date and feel free to correct me on any of this. I think he's the best Falco player in Japan, but there aren't a lot of videos on him from what I know and I don't think he traveled outside of Japan much except for that one time for EVO 2019 where he placed 25th. After him, I guess MASA who also plays Ness and maybe FILIP or OMNaoto. Are those names important to any of you? I bet not.

The most well-known Falco player is Larry Lurr and he doesn't or didn't play Falco as much compared to Wolf and Fox. The best Falco player with presence I think is Juice and then you have players like Active, Ismon, Kofi, Lui$, or whoever. Between Larry Lurr and Juice, that's kind of okay. It's not as bad as if the best and most well-known Falco player was getting roflstomped so hard -- drowning in the first match of pools in every tournament -- that people wonder if all the hype around him is an inside joke they weren't in on or if the character got really unlucky with who is representing him. What also helps is that Falco has Trixx who is to Falco as Dark.Pch is to Peach/Daisy; someone who extensively labs, individually or collaboratively with other players, and shares findings to everyone wanting to learn about a character.

Falco doesn't need a dark horse; Falco is the dark horse. He just needs someone to take him to the racetracks and ones where the world is watching.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Speaking of Dr. Mario, Tsumusuto, the best Dr. Mario player in Japan (and I'm pretty sure he's the best Doc solo-main in the world as well currently) released a matchup chart for him today and I think it shows Doc as being a much better character than people in America usually regard him.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I feel like it's worth noting that Japan's meta is much more defensive than America's and certain characters are viewed much more positively or negatively there because of that, something this list from 7.0 reflects to some degree. Even though I'd say that Doc is most likely better in a more defensive meta than an offensive one due to his solid punish game and anti-zoning tools, Tsumusuto's chart still seems to reflect him as a much better character than he is usually regarded as, even in Japan, when looking at the tier list made by top Japanese players from 7.0.

There are a few specific characters I think are worth noting the placements of in this list:

• Tsumusuto thinks and are slightly winning matchups for Doc. It seems to be generally accepted by most Dr. Mario players that these matchups are even or slight Doc favored, while most Pika and Pichu players (at least in America) still seem to believe it to be in their favor. I personally can see both of these matchups being even, and I can see Doc maybe winning slightly against Pichu specifically. I'm not that convinced Doc wins against Pika though. Doc can deal with Pika fairly well onstage, can play neutral well enough, isn't too easy to combo, combo and kill Pika fairly well, and deal with t-jolt better than most of the cast, but Doc can't be offstage in this matchup. If Pika manages to find a way to get you offstage, you're likely dead no matter what percent you're at.
• He has in even. Not much to say other than this continues the trend of Doc and Ganon mains not being able to agree which characters wins/loses this matchup or if it's just even.
• Tsumusto views as Doc's best matchup, which I agree with. Doc can deal with Aura Sphere, stuff out his approaches (despite Lucario's fast air speed), keep Lucario in disadvantage, play neutral well, and he kills Lucario really early. Back throw or up-b near the ledge can start killing Lucario around 100%, which prevents him from getting to percents where he has consistent kill options. Even Lucario's edgeguarding options against Doc aren't all that good. B-air has a fairly small hitbox, and d-air isn't all that threatening until Lucario gets to higher percents. A lack of a meteor smash also hurts Lucario's edgeguarding game in this matchup as well.

There are some characters I don't have as much to say regarding, but I think it's still worth noting where they are on this list:

with specifically being the one that stands out the most to me.

What's this 2nd list in his Tweet for?
Can't read Japanese so I have no idea.

 

[Tri Knight]

I think 's a significantly better character than Doc. For reference I think he beats both Link and YL +1. He's a lot better and chasing them down and slipping past their zoning.

Yeah I think one of the biggest things about Mario vs the Links is his ability to expose their angles. He does that really well. His fireballs don't seem like much until you realize he's putting out 3x the amount of projectiles Link and Young Link can at a ~45° angle. Link and Young Link have very good attacks, but without Boomerang, they specifically attack in 90° angles, more or less, namely in the air... Mario's a character that can really take advantage of that.

One thing that does at least stand out to me in these MUs is Link's long sword. Retreating F-tilts, D-tilts, and reverse Up-tilts can help remedy the situational rushing Mario and can keep Mario spaced even at angles due to his much larger archs when he swings while grounded. So like a lot of Link's tougher MUs, he has to play a bit more defensively through spacing patiently but that being said, Link can actually use that to his advantage since Mario doesn't have the best reach and lacks the priority that Link has in melee.

Definitely a tough MU for them either way. I almost want to say it's a bit easier for Link than Young Link to be honest.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Incineroar doesn't exactly have trouble stringing effective combos together as it is, and I don't think a meager speed buff will do much to change that. Were you hoping for him to be like Bowser and DK with their lateral strings? We can't just make all close combat heavies like them, and they don't have the benefits of being not so big-boned and Revenge.

Some characters are designed to have specific flaws, and while some characters may get those flaws reduced in future patches (or furthered if the character is too overpowering like ), they will probably never go away. It's why they'll never give buffs to his air game, like giving him an aerial to stop platform stalling, or make his aerial up-B travel the same vertical distance it does from the ground. The whole gimmick behind him is he is meant to be a demon on the ground, but has the worst air game. Likewise, is meant to be Ultimate's answer to Zangief.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Definitely a tough MU for them either way. I almost want to say it's a bit easier for Link than Young Link to be honest

I'd agree with that. Yink's need for specific kill confirms eventually attenuate his plan in a way a smart Mario can avoid or exploit. But Link just continues playing the same neutral that was already working; his opponent will eventually just explode from one too many sword swipes.

 

[Tri Knight]

But Link just continues playing the same neutral that was already working; his opponent will eventually just explode from one too many sword swipes.

Good thing Link has some nutty kill power and edgeguarding tools.

 

[Minix0]

Yeah, no way Doc has that many good match ups lol. At least in my opinion. He's so slow and dies so easy off stage. He arguably is in bottom 3 worst recoveries in the game. His combo pool is quite limited as well (unless that dtilt buff helped him more than I thought...). I really don't see how Doc wins against Pika in any universe, let alone Falco.

As for Incineroar, I'd say he for sure needs some sort of mobility buff. Ironically despite his speed, he's a more functional character than Ganondorf and I'd argue more rewarding, but that speed is for sure what's holding him back. Not to mention his recovery, which prevents him from even edgeguarding as well as he could be. That speed also prevents him from using his kit as well as he could be. He's a punish-based character, but is too slow to do so a lot of times. He's strong, but has trouble using that strength when he's being camped. He has good frame data, but good luck ever putting it to good use on the other side of battlefield. He's heavy, but that doesn't matter when he dies at 30% off stage after losing his double jump. He has combos and kills confirms, but sometimes the opponent is just too fast and escapes with ease.

I mean. Flip Jump is one of the best recovery moves in the game.

I'd say she easily does 1 and 2.

Yeah, now that you mention it, I do recall struggling against edgeguarding that move, but then again its been a while. But even with that move she's not like Pikachu who can get back where ever he may be off stage. If she's below the ledge and far enough, that's an opportune time for Plasma Breath, or an edgeguard if forced to use up-b.

I dunno I don't see how she straight up wins. I guess I just have a hard time seeing her edgeguard Ridley most of the time (unless down-b does through Rid's up b), and aside from combo strings, its not like she'll really camp him out (though, side-b may be a different story). I guess I should research that mu more.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Personally I think that Incineroar's recovery is vastly underestimated. It's not great, but its nowhere near close to Little Mac, Min Min, Belmont or Ganondorf tier.

Let's say you knock Incineroar off stage, he has four recovery options.

• Cross Chop
• Alolan Whip
• Midair Jump
• Air Dodge

You can use these moves in any order you want, assuming you have the space/time for it. This means that Incineroar's recovery is actually fairly versatile. If left alone, a good Incineroar will make it back to the stage a majority of the time. That's the key word phrase though, "if left alone." Edge guarding can really wreck Incineroar, but thankfully he gets Alolan Whip and Cross Chop back on hit, so I tend use those moves first and save my midair jump for when I really need it. Revenge is also a useful tool to help make it back to the stage if you feel confident on your predictions. Just don't overuse it. Or... even better, use Cross Chop at the right time and Incinicide to be the ultimate chad.

Point being, Incineroar's recovery is nowhere near as bad as people say and I've won more matches than I should because a concerning number of players think they don't even need to edge guard Incineroar.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Cross Chop has a lot of horizontal travel and can be acted out of, so recovering high into an air dodge, nair, Revenge, etc is a pretty good option so long as you mix lower recoveries in from time to time. Between that and Alolan Whip, Incineroar has solid recovery options. Once you get recovering as Incin down,
you'll find it's better than a good chunk of the cast. Though, I'd be lying if I said it hasn't let me down on rare occasion.

Edgeguarding also isn't as bad as you might think, either. Incin can do a full Darkest Lariat, which has intangibility, and make it back with a vertical Cross Chop. Worth noting that Cross Chop can be somewhat more horizontal or vertical depending on how you angle it. It's not a crazy deep edgeguard or anything, and ledgetrapping with either down tilt (for recoveries whose hitboxes aren't going to catch you from beneath) or Revenge (for recoveries that will catch you from beneath) is usually the better option, but it's there nonetheless

 

[Space thing]

What's this 2nd list in his Tweet for?
Can't read Japanese so I have no idea.

It's his track record against said match ups. From top to bottom:
"Over 90% win rate"
"I win pretty consistently"
"Above 50% win rate"
"50% win rate"
"Below 50% win rate"
"Oof"
"Isn't shield art mid combo unfair?"
"idk"

 

[VodkaHaze]

Cross Chop has a lot of horizontal travel and can be acted out of, so recovering high into an air dodge, nair, Revenge, etc is a pretty good option so long as you mix lower recoveries in from time to time. Between that and Alolan Whip, Incineroar has solid recovery options. Once you get recovering as Incin down,
you'll find it's better than a good chunk of the cast. Though, I'd be lying if I said it hasn't let me down on rare occasion.

Edgeguarding also isn't as bad as you might think, either. Incin can do a full Darkest Lariat, which has intangibility, and make it back with a vertical Cross Chop. Worth noting that Cross Chop can be somewhat more horizontal or vertical depending on how you angle it. It's not a crazy deep edgeguard or anything, and ledgetrapping with either down tilt (for recoveries whose hitboxes aren't going to catch you from beneath) or Revenge (for recoveries that will catch you from beneath) is usually the better option, but it's there nonetheless

There's also the rare option of using Cross Crop to get up from ledge. The impact can kill at high %, but it is not something to go for frequently as you can get punished if they see it coming. Nice mix-up option though.

Darkest Lariat has invincibility on Incineroar's arms so long as you're on the ground. Using it in the air grants you no invincible frames. Surprised you didn't mention its aerials for edgeguarding. Fair is a great move to edgeguard opponents who are kinda high in the air. Same goes for bair.

 

[StrangeKitten]

There's also the rare option of using Cross Crop to get up from ledge. The impact can kill at high %, but it is not something to go for frequently as you can get punished if they see it coming. Nice mix-up option though.

Darkest Lariat has invincibility on Incineroar's arms so long as you're on the ground. Using it in the air grants you no invincible frames. Surprised you didn't mention its aerials for edgeguarding. Fair is a great move to edgeguard opponents who are kinda high in the air. Same goes for bair.

Aw crud, I knew that about Dariat but forgot! And yeah, all the aerials except up air are great for edgeguarding (dair is of course situational but man, if you find the opportunity)

 

[RonNewcomb]

I really don't see how Doc wins against Pika in any universe

Well, Doc has pills and a reflector if Pika tries the Tjolt game, which forces Pika to approach. Pika approaching mitigates Doc's lack of mobility/range, and Doc's boxing game up close out-damages Pika. And I guess Doc's UpB OoS, or even UpB into Pika's multihits for trades or trade-combos, pushes the on-stage fight firmly in Doc's favor.

 

[Thinkaman]

I know this is well past its expiration date, but it's worth bringing up the time that an empty chair beat ESAM's Pikachu with Doc in loser's finals of a supermajor.

Also Incineroar's recovery is fine, how is that even a topic of debate?


Not-Actually-Hot-Take: There is not a single character in the game that "needs" movement changes or recovery changes to be a balanced, or even high-tier, character. No character in this game actually has a garbage neutral or hopeless disadvantage, and asserting otherwise reveals a lack of perspective.

 

[blackghost]

theres only so much slow character can do in a game like smash before a glass ceiling is reached. the reason a slow character like snake was able to rise and be top tier in one game in the series and be a high tier in another is because snake has a unique ability to be in 3 places at once in brawl and two places at once in smash ultimate. and in survivability and uptilt in general as a move and you get a good character.

incinerator being slow will always be the character's greatest flaw. but thats intentional the debate from a design point of view comes in how slow is TOO slow. and i personally think he is on the too slow side of that line. with a walk speed of .62 and a run speed of 1.18 he walks 33 percent slower than robin. that barely sounds right saying it out loud.
(robin is at .936 walk speed and run speed 1.265)
in gmaes like marvel vs or smash being slow is more frustrating than just dealing with a weakness it is dealing with an inability to plat the game. and no high damage alone is not sufficient compensation for being THAT slow. because in comparison fast characters dont deal out damage proportionally lower than he incineroar does.

 

[Xfire]

Fun trivia: 's walk speed (0.62) is 0.03 units smaller than the formerly slowest walker, Melee Bowser (0.65).

It both helps and hinders its microspacing option from different perspectives. Slower walk can mean your opponent could mis-space their move against your approach, but that also means you yourself cannot avoid attacks often against an approaching opponent. Generally though, not many players use walking as a microspace option since dash-dancing, crawling ( and comes to mind), and aerial drift tends be more effective. Unless you play or , since they do have properties or moves that are effective with their gameplay in mind.

 

[Thinkaman]

I just ran the numbers. There is no meaningful correlation with OrionRank placing and walk speed, run speed, aerial acceleration, gravity, fall speed, or jump parameters. There is a weak positive correlation with initial dash speed and max horizontal air speed. (They also correlates with usage, more weakly.)

Again, it's a pretty simple mental exercise to break virtually any character in this game with seemingly minor changes. It's a stretch to construe any problems as foundational.

 

[Minix0]

Also Incineroar's recovery is fine, how is that even a topic of debate?

I meeeeeean

Its fine horizontally, but don't bother trying to get vertical height.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I meeeeeean

Its fine horizontally, but don't bother trying to get vertical height.

Eh?

Cross Chop goes a pretty good distance up.

If anything its going diagonally that's tricky.

 

[Thinkaman]

I meeeeeean

Its fine horizontally, but don't bother trying to get vertical height.

Cross Chop has more vertical gain than Dolphin Slash.

And Super Jump Punch, Spinning Kong, Hero Spin, Screw Attack, Egg Toss, Cutter, Falcon Dive, Parasol, Whirling Fortress, Fire Bird, Dark Dive, Blazer, Boost Kick--you know what, this is dumb, it would be faster to list the moves it doesn't have more vertical reach than.

Yes, Incineroar obviously does not have as good a recovery as Yoshi or ZSS, but like ZSS (or Banjo) his recovery is the sum of a lot of solid parts. Up-b can grab ledge from 70 units below, side-b from about 55 units horizontally--solid numbers. Used high, both ofter a travel ratio on par with Jigglypuff's standard movement. And unlike character such as Ganon, Wolf, Belmonts, Shotos, Roy, Min Min, Mac, or even Peach and Wario, Incineroar has a normal, average-height double jump. All delivered with a neutral-B mixup, a Revenge mixup, super armor on up-b, and superior travel-to-stage options than most characters, and without resource limit vulnerabilities like Mac, Wario, Peach, ROB, Yoshi, or other characters who depend on their giant/multiple double jump.

Incineroar's recovery is probably top half (barely), and very clearly better than anyone with his weight or greater. (except Charizard if you count him) It's comparable in total travel distances + options to Shotos, Terry, Samus, and Banjo, who are all regarded as solid recoveries.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Incineroar having a bad recovery is an opinion I see too often and it's a pet peeve of mine. You watch Magister play and how many times does he actually die off stage?

Yes once he loses double jump it gets significantly harder to recover, but that's true for most of the cast, and unlike say, Ganon, he actually has a good double jump. I feel more confident recovering with the cat than I do Terry or Wolf.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean Incineroar's recovery was somewhat poor before the early buffs to up-b; his vertical reach was lacking in a way that made both high up-b and low side-b dubious, so his expansive web of recovery paths didn't really exist. I assume this poor first impression on launch day drove a lot of people's ideas about the character. (Revenge buffs have also helped a modest amount, but they are more relevant to the neutral.)

I don't want to encourage much speculation on hypothetical buffs, but I've been wondering how much comprehensive QoL changes alone might help .

Make fair/bair/uair AC on frame 34 (from 35/36/40) so they SHAC and can be uses in combos strings and for platform pressure. Increase Straight Lunge armor to 10% so it covers most ledge attacks, weak aerials, medium projectiles, and weak tilts. Extend the early intangibility of Jolt Haymaker one more frame to round out the anti-projectile uses in more matchups. Further minor improvements to the FAF on KO Punch, uncharged Straight Lunge, and Slip Counter, to minimize the penalty/risk in using these utility moves in matchups where they are resorted to more commonly.

Obviously giant, blunt buffs like giving him Smash 4 dtilt FAF (keeping Ultimate range) or side-b restore-on-hit (keeping Ultimate non-helpless) would be high impact; I'm just wondering how significant small tweaks could be on him. I suspect it's a bit more than one might expect.

Straight Lunge reminds me of old Phantom, a bad move that is almost a great move. We saw buffs revolutionize Raptor Boost and Crownarang, and it's easy to imagine a similar high-impact tune up here.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I've mained Incineroar since the game came out and I agree that his recovery is quite good. It was kinda poor before the buff (Which was like, patch 2.0 or something, it happened very early on) but after that, it became really good. While I do want some speed buffs for the cat, I think his recovery should be left as-is. It's solid enough, and I think Incineroar should have some weakness in the recovery department to keep him balanced

 

[Minix0]

Cross Chop has more vertical gain than Dolphin Slash.

Yes, but at least you can drift afterwards with Marth's recovery. Incineroar kills himself unless he gets the exact right angle, which can make edgeguarding as him more annoying and streamlined than it has to be. Not to mention Incineroar has the 7th slowest airspeed in the game, whereas Marth has almost double the airspeed (1.071 vs. .88). Airspeed alone makes Marth's recovery more consistent. He's similar to Ridley in the sense that although he can make it back, he's quite vulnerable while doing so (though I'd argue Ridley's recovery options are still more versatile).

Incineroar has two options. Go high and land on stage and risk a punish (his up-b is quite laggy when landing on stage, so you'd have to go even higher to avoid the landing hitbox), or go low and be edgeguard bait. Obviously, Incineroar will want to go high, but depending on the match up, this may not be a good idea (Lucario at 140% waiting with aura sphere, Lucas waiting with PK Freeze, Palutena holding up smash, etc).

Incineroar's recovery is not bad like Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Min Min, Ganon, etc. but I have a hard time calling it "fine". It's ok I guess? It's better than Donkey Kong probably, so I guess he has that going for him.

 

[Myollnir]

Not to mention Incineroar has the 7th slowest airspeed in the game, whereas Marth has almost double the airspeed (1.071 vs. .88).

Wait, I don't think that's how maths work.

Incineroar's recovery is very exploitable if you know where to aim, as both SideB and UpB and very reactable and can be challenged. But it's far from being free, I would call it a below average recovery, but not an awful one.

 

[Nobie]

I mean Incineroar's recovery was somewhat poor before the early buffs to up-b; his vertical reach was lacking in a way that made both high up-b and low side-b dubious, so his expansive web of recovery paths didn't really exist. I assume this poor first impression on launch day drove a lot of people's ideas about the character. (Revenge buffs have also helped a modest amount, but they are more relevant to the neutral.)

I don't want to encourage much speculation on hypothetical buffs, but I've been wondering how much comprehensive QoL changes alone might help .

Make fair/bair/uair AC on frame 34 (from 35/36/40) so they SHAC and can be uses in combos strings and for platform pressure. Increase Straight Lunge armor to 10% so it covers most ledge attacks, weak aerials, medium projectiles, and weak tilts. Extend the early intangibility of Jolt Haymaker one more frame to round out the anti-projectile uses in more matchups. Further minor improvements to the FAF on KO Punch, uncharged Straight Lunge, and Slip Counter, to minimize the penalty/risk in using these utility moves in matchups where they are resorted to more commonly.

Obviously giant, blunt buffs like giving him Smash 4 dtilt FAF (keeping Ultimate range) or side-b restore-on-hit (keeping Ultimate non-helpless) would be high impact; I'm just wondering how significant small tweaks could be on him. I suspect it's a bit more than one might expect.

Straight Lunge reminds me of old Phantom, a bad move that is almost a great move. We saw buffs revolutionize Raptor Boost and Crownarang, and it's easy to imagine a similar high-impact tune up here.

My hope for Little Mac would be to have him reflect the gameplay of his source game better, but that's kind of a monkey's paw situation.

Like, you know how people haaate spot dodge canceling? Half of Little Mac's purpose in Punch-Out!! is to spot dodge cancel, and the other half is to land counter blows. In fact, I sometimes wonder if the mechanic was made for him and his frame-1 jab. (A buff would somehow make it even better.)

I know it's unlikely to ever happen, but I'd completely rework Slip Counter to stun in place instead of dealing proportional knockback—like a cross between Mewtwo Disable and Bayonetta Witch Time. I basically just want Little Mac to be able to keep opponents in place in order to deliver key hits.

Perhaps a more realistic thing would be to give him stronger aerials out of short hops, but keep them weak coming out of a full hop or double jump.

 

[Minix0]

Wait, I don't think that's how maths work.

Well, .88 times two is 1.76 so unless I'm rarted thats what it is. (I guess that zero makes the difference doesn't it lol) Well, I was never good at math. Either way, Marth still undeniably has better airspeed and that makes recovering easier because of said difference.

Incineroar's recovery is very exploitable if you know where to aim, as both SideB and UpB and very reactable and can be challenged. But it's far from being free, I would call it a below average recovery, but not an awful one.

And yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.

Eh?

Cross Chop goes a pretty good distance up.

If anything its going diagonally that's tricky.

Yeah you're right, but I was including diagonal distance into "verticality". My bad shoulda explained better.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I don't want to encourage much speculation on hypothetical buffs, but I've been wondering how much comprehensive QoL changes alone might help .

Make fair/bair/uair AC on frame 34 (from 35/36/40) so they SHAC and can be uses in combos strings and for platform pressure. Increase Straight Lunge armor to 10% so it covers most ledge attacks, weak aerials, medium projectiles, and weak tilts. Extend the early intangibility of Jolt Haymaker one more frame to round out the anti-projectile uses in more matchups. Further minor improvements to the FAF on KO Punch, uncharged Straight Lunge, and Slip Counter, to minimize the penalty/risk in using these utility moves in matchups where they are resorted to more commonly.

Obviously giant, blunt buffs like giving him Smash 4 dtilt FAF (keeping Ultimate range) or side-b restore-on-hit (keeping Ultimate non-helpless) would be high impact; I'm just wondering how significant small tweaks could be on him. I suspect it's a bit more than one might expect.

I have a while ago made a Word Doc to myself on theoretical changes/fixes to characters (I haven't visited this Word Doc in a while now), but you pretty much covered a lot of what I put there for Mac.

However, there are a few other things of note that I would like to see with the character:

• There is the undeniable fact that they mostly neutered up tilt in this game. The increased knockback scaling harms his high percent combos quite a bit (although not as much as down tilt's nerf). However, the decreased base knockback is mostly offset by the moves's lower damage output, making the move unsafe on hit at very low percents, while also nerfing the move's anti-rebounding priority. Restoring some of up tilts lost utility will help Mac quite a bit. I mostly want to see a fix to the unsafe on hit issue the move has.
• In addition to the SHAC change to his aerials, I also would like to see them have slightly increased hitstun, so while the moves are still technically weak, the chances of the opponent hitting Mac after hitting them with an aerial diminishes.
• The third, and probably most radical, additional change I would like to see is his gravity being decreased. In Ultimate, in addition of drastically buffing Little Mac's air speed, they also increased his fall speed and gravity as well. While this helps out Mac quite a bit in the landing department, as he definitely felt too floaty in SSB4, I think the gravity increased hurt him than it helps him. This change, combined with his higher weight, makes him easier to combo, while it hurts his horizontal recovery. This can be best seen during the entire duration of using side B in the air, including endag, as Mac falls much faster in Ultimate during the move. He can keep his increased fall speed, as he does at least have some control on when to use it, but I feel that all the increased gravity does is applying the "glass" in his glass cannon archetype.

Obviously giant, blunt buffs like giving him Smash 4 dtilt FAF (keeping Ultimate range) or side-b restore-on-hit (keeping Ultimate non-helpless) would be high impact; I'm just wondering how significant small tweaks could be on him. I suspect it's a bit more than one might expect.

As for the prospect of how much an individual QoL buff does to the character, lets see again what areas we are buffing the character. In a lot of ways, the buffs we are giving to Little Mac are simply restoring options he lost in SSB4, a game in which he was lower-mid tier at best despite the options he possessed, as well as giving fixes to the character. To me, I don't think these changes will particularly make him problem character at all. Despite the combined changes you and I have brought to the table, and even if the character suddenly has the best advantage state in the game, he still possesses a lot of the same weaknesses, just not as prominent, but it exists. Our changes combined can make a potentially viable character, but not overpowered or a problem character at all (probably except for online, but there are way more problem characters there).

As a matter of fact, the prospect of the character being "fundamentally busted" or a character being very easy to make overpowered, has not been proven yet. It is something that I have been thinking about the character more and more as time goes on. There has never been a time period where the character has been OP, or received buffs that has elevated the characters to the next dimension, so we don't really have any concrete proof that the character's ease-of-making-him-overpowered even exists.
The only "time" that we had an era of Little Mac being "OP" was the early 3DS era. That was an era with a hilariously underdeveloped meta, using a limited control scheme. Remember, that was the time era where some players thought Bowser was the best character in the game (I'm not kidding), as well as people thinking that Robin and Bowser Jr. was high tier. People nowadays have the impression that Mac's nerfs in the early SSB4 meta was due to the character being a problem character during the early meta, when that was not the case whatsoever.

We have seen on hand on what nice QoL buffs does to the character already. In 3.1., the character received a handful of fairly significant buffs, including the range increase to down tilt, much less endlag on KO Punch, Straight Lunge, and Slip Counter, large reliability changes to jab and forward tilt, and more armor on up smash.
How much did this impact the character?
Well it did impact the character positively, but it is not a tier raiser by any means. He rose from the undeniable worst character prior to the patch, to still one of the worst characters but much more disputable. It was clear that the character needed more changes, which is why Little Mac buffs is even in the discussion in the first place, but I don't think small tweaks, while helpful, will be enough to properly rise him out of his current state.

My overall thoughts: you know what, lets just apply all the listed changes we just gathered, and see what happens. The character in his current state has quite a bit inconsistencies, a lot of stuff to his advantage state that feels like it should be there but isn't, taken away from him in the transition from SSB4 to Ultimate, and some areas in his weaknesses that feels over-polarized. This character's mains have been dealing with a character with many inconsistencies and over-polarized weaknesses, ever since 2014, that could be easily fixed with significant changes to the right spots.

Straight Lunge reminds me of old Phantom, a bad move that is almost a great move. We saw buffs revolutionize Raptor Boost and Crownarang, and it's easy to imagine a similar high-impact tune up here.

I am curious though: aside from an armor buff to the move, what are the changes you are thinking of that could be applied to the move?

The only thing I can think of is the ability to store the move's charge, similar to SSB4 Mii Brawler's Ultimate Uppercut, but this seems to be a very unlikely thing the balance devs would do, as adding a completely new fundamental function to a move is something they have never done before in SSB4's or Ultimate's patches. The closest thing I can think of is adding new cancels to some of Ryu/Ken's normals and accidentally making manual jab 3 for Mac have less endlag (which would be patched later), but never one that changes a fundamental function of a special move, unless I am forgetting something.

 

[Thinkaman]

As a matter of fact, the prospect of the character being "fundamentally busted" or a character being very easy to make overpowered, has not been proven yet. It is something that I have been thinking about the character more and more as time goes on. There has never been a time period where the character has been OP, or received buffs that has elevated the characters to the next dimension, so we don't really have any concrete proof that the character's ease-of-making-him-overpowered even exists.

I agree with the broad strokes of this. "It's a good thing Mac is underpowered because otherwise he'd be overpowered" is the eating glue of smash theory. I do think it would be a trivial exercise to break any character, and am pleased with the conservative patch approach, but you're precisely right that there is no real evidence to this supposed unique degeneracy of Mac. It's part of a broader trend of people clutching their pearls at any character with extreme strengths or weaknesses.

The only "time" that we had an era of Little Mac being "OP" was the early 3DS era. That was an era with a hilariously underdeveloped meta, using a limited control scheme. Remember, that was the time era where some players thought Bowser was the best character in the game (I'm not kidding), as well as people thinking that Robin and Bowser Jr. was high tier. People nowadays have the impression that Mac's nerfs in the early SSB4 meta was due to the character being a problem character during the early meta, when that was not the case whatsoever.

I've actually never heard anyone expressing this view.

He rose from the undeniable worst character prior to the patch, to still one of the worst characters but much more disputable.

I'm just repeating opinions I have repeated a dozen times before, but I think Mac was never in contention for worst, is constantly underrated in a Twitter/Reddit circlejerk, and is perpectually judged according to strict solo-viability criteria based on a homebrew timeout rule on a homebrew stage list in a single format of the game. It's madness.

Even Ganon has people admit "Yeah, but free for alls, right?"

I am curious though: aside from an armor buff to the move, what are the changes you are thinking of that could be applied to the move?

Well, for starters, let's talk about that 32 frame minimum charge before release/cancel. 36 frames is a colossal amount of commitment, which precludes a lot of use cases for a weak move with so little armor. Among other factors, it cuts into a lot of the move's hypothetical use in recovery.

Second, while it's great that Mac can shield cancel the move (or air dodge), he can't jump out of it directly. This would make the move a relevant recovery mixup comparable slip counter, even with the existing frame commentment and armor. It's not great (frankly it'd be mediocre), but Mac will take all the mediocre recovery options he can get. There are a few characters Mac would like to mix this hypothetical recovery path in against (alongside the normal side-b vs slip counter), and as you lowered the armor startup and/or increased the armor value, the list would grow.

Third, the endlag is pretty extreme. Uncharged is 45 frames, including the active frames but still. That's -34 on shield (gets better as you gain charge/damage/shieldstun, but not much), which is horrible. Normally you'd expect a move with such massive endlag to have not just abnormally low startup, abundant kill power, character dislocation, or something like Bury status--but multiple of those. Instead we get a move with double the disadvantage of a Mac f-smash for half the damage. (And overall worse armor!)

You could cut 20 frames of endlag off the move and it wouldn't break it. He actually still wouldn't use it much, as long as the commitment and reward are the same.

The main thing is increasing the armor, so he has an anti-speedster-juggle tool that works against say Mario nair, bair, and dair--not just (a single) uair.


Edit:
It might be helpful to think of Straight Lunge as two moves, similar to Ryu Focus Attack--a defensive option, and a seperate and optional weird followup attack.

Straight Lunge, like Focus Attack, is not a "good" defensive option. Spot dodge and even air dodge offer far more freedom and actual intangibility instead of mere armor, and not even good armor at that. But both are super long duration and can be used while landing. These are critical gaps normal defensive tools don't fill, which is enough to make "not "good" options" actually great. In Ryu's case, Focus Attack's limited armor is enough and comes out frame 1, so he finds plenty of use for it even without taking into account the mobility aspect. It's great that Mac can now use the defensive half of Straight Lunge separate from the attack, but it's not quite enough to fill in those gaps and be generally useful at its job like Focus Attack is.

Meanwhile the attack half is just a terrible move with no value, especially on a character with impossibly high standards for what a good ground move looks like. It's nice than you can reverse it, but it's kinda putting lipstick on a pig. Focus Attack's attack is situationally handy and works well with the defensive half, but Straight Lunge's attack is just a mathematical dud in any situation. (And unlike fixing up the defensive half, I doubt improving it would address any of Mac's pain points.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I don't see why Mac couldn't get some buffs and QoL. I'd like to see his combo game get back to on par with what it was in Smash 4, maybe even a little better. Give some QoL to some non-combo moves too, and maybe even buff his recovery slightly.

And you'd end up with a character that would probably be... lower mid? I don't see my suggestions turning him into some meta-dominating monster. He'd still lack a projectile and good ways to deal with them. Still be among the lightest characters in the game with a bad recovery (even if buffed slightly). Still not have much disjoint. Armored smash attacks would still have lots of counterplay. I'd like to see Mac be the best character he can be without being broken, and I think it wouldn't be a difficult balance to find