Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

I'm right, you're wrong, but let me know what you think anyways🙂🌽 pic.twitter.com/hnS9vK2DnT

— Cosmos (@CosmosZR) July 23, 2020

Cosmos made a Corrin matchup chart. I actually agree with a lot of this, although not 100%.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'm right, you're wrong, but let me know what you think anyways🙂🌽 pic.twitter.com/hnS9vK2DnT

— Cosmos (@CosmosZR) July 23, 2020

Cosmos made a Corrin matchup chart. I actually agree with a lot of this, although not 100%.

Well that is an optimistic matchup chart if I have ever seen one. lol

A lot of characters with good keep-away are noted to be +1 matchups, which are matchups that Corrin historically had a lot issues in Ultimate. While her advantage is much better, I don't think Corrin really got anything that truly helps out with those matchups.

Something I do notice, is that he put as even, which is interesting because, unless I am remembering this completely incorrectly, vs was a winning matchup for Corrin.
Granted that Mario has a gained a lot of tools to deal with sword characters from SSB4 to Ultimate, but it is interesting to see him put out a matchup chart so optimistic, yet have the Mario matchup be even despite it noted to be Corrin's favor in SSB4.

Shoutouts to , who has the 2nd strongest f-smash in the game (only behind Bowser) ignoring buffs. All on a 15f move with only 47 frames of commitment, crazy stuff.

True, but Dr. Mario's forward smash has hilariously poor range, even for its speed.

The sweetspot is also located at Dr. Mario's arms, which means that you must be virtually inside the opponent to actually land the strong part of the move.

 

[Rizen]

Eh...

Spoiler: Ridley F-Smash Hitbox

I can see it I guess...

I didn't realize it was that big. Ridley's basically a sword character with his disjointed tail. Unfortunately he suffers from large hurtbox syndrome. Most of what Ridley does better swordsmen like Lucina can do at least as well without the big disadvantage.

I'm right, you're wrong, but let me know what you think anyways🙂🌽 pic.twitter.com/hnS9vK2DnT

— Cosmos (@CosmosZR) July 23, 2020

Cosmos made a Corrin matchup chart. I actually agree with a lot of this, although not 100%.

This chart's a good indication of why I picked up Wolf for YL's bad MUs vs swordsmen. I agree Corrin beats YL but Wolf generally does well in the MU. Wolf's blaster being transcendent is a big help and so is his great airspeed vs swords. Wolf can play his midrange game freely. YL generally gets cornered and destroyed in disadvantage.
I can go into more detail if anyone cares.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Here's a link to the vod containing Cosmos' explanations if anyone's curious: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/687728754

EDIT:

There is a few things that I wanted to touch on after viewing the vod/MU chart:

- He mentions being an even MU because he can combo pretty hard when he gets in, but that can also apply to a good chunk of characters he has in the +1 category ( () just to name a few).

- Why is in even but in +1? If anything, Marth seems harder because if they're both playing the distance game, I'd guess that Marth is much more likely to land his tippers than normal.

- in +1 is certainly interesting given that I've heard that Samus tends to well against most swordies. in -1 is reflective of similar statements I've heard regarding Sheik, however.

 

[DougEfresh]

So, Cosmos' Corrin MU chart is...interesting, to say the least. It has her winning 54 match ups and only 12 losing ones, of which pretty much all of them are high and top tier characters. This makes look like a top 15 or 20 character and I don't think I see her buffs from 8.0 making her that good.

I have to admit, I got a good laugh at watching the section of his MU chart explanation VOD. When I first saw he was put as +2 for Corrin, I immediately assumed it was just to go along with the trend of thinking he's really bad without much explanation but his actual justification for his placement there did boil down to "he's trash and can't do anything against any characters" lol.

Despite the overly broad and reductive take of his that I obviously disagree with, I think he does fine against overall. In fact, outside of and arguably , is the only swordie MU that's commonly agreed among Lucario mains that he goes even in. She does have range to wall us out, but we can opt to a predominantly grounded playstyle to mitigate the aerial pressure she can apply. She's also quite slow in comparison to most, if not all, other swordies, so camping her out is usually pretty effective as well. In general, staying more grounded, using AS to camp and ledge trap, and punishing landings (even if needed to be done slightly preemptively to do successfully on the latter) are all decent enough ways we can go toe to toe with her. Her juggling and ledge traps can be strong though, so it's not like we can autopilot through the match up and expect to win.

Regarding /: my experience in this MU is even more limited than the / match up, but I tend to doubt that Corrin has such a remarkable advantage on him (Banjo was put in +1, and very close to being +2 according to Cosmos). I do recall having a more or less losing record against Corrin as Banjo on the few occasions I have played the MU, but I think my losses were much more reflective of lack of MU experience and less than ideal habits that got me punished harder than I should've been. Yes, she can juggle and wall Banjo out well enough, but that's nearly where the advantages end for her and the extent of those can be rather minimized by playing more projectile heavy Imo. Once again, is slow, so she's fairly easily camped out, especially if done intelligently with a character like . Grounded bait and punish with projectiles and other tools in neutral tends to work well for him across many MUs and Idt Corrin is any exception to that. And while his overall advantage state isn't especially notable, the horizontal pressure Banjo has with ledge trapping and egg gimps is a very good thing for us to have in the MU and I'm not sure if it's all that hard to put Corrin in that spot and get some big reward off from it. Pre-8.0, I may have said Banjo actually won this MU and I haven't tested the MU since her buffs, so for now I'm inclined to call it even until I'm able to get more thorough and complete data.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I dunno, man... Maybe I'm just naturally really good with but playing him again, he really didn't feel that bad. I wonder if he really is as bad as people make him out to be, or just criminally underrated since he gets no competitive representation

 

[blackghost]

Uh....

Ridley kills VERY early, either through edge guards or raw power. He can also rack up damage quickly.

I'm not sure why you think he isn't a "canon" exactly. His offensive power is universally agreed to be his main strength.

i havent seen Riley posted as an elite edge guard character. not like a pikachu, bayo, palutena, joker, shiek, or others.

ridley yes he has damage but how reliable those moves are to land are iffy at best, side b can be mashed out of and leaves you negative, down b is a meme move. even ridley fsmash can be challenged and literally blow up in his face.
the thing is in ultimate mostly thanks to the 1v1 multiplier everyone has damage (RIP SHIEK) but the key is reliability because it leads to consistency.

the other thing is ridley doesnt do damage in a way that makes people go "geez thats not ok." whether they are joking or serious. like compare ridley damage to someone actually scary like wii fit damage, hero, or shulk or ryu. he's not in the same league.

just because damage may be ridley's strength doesnt mean it stacks up everything is relative.

 

[DougEfresh]

I dunno, man... Maybe I'm just naturally really good with but playing him again, he really didn't feel that bad. I wonder if he really is as bad as people make him out to be, or just criminally underrated since he gets no competitive representation

Yep, pretty much what I've been saying all along. The character has clear flaws that prevent him from being high tier (let alone top tier), but love it or hate it, having the X factor with aura does count for something and why I philosophically cannot place him in low/bottom tier (though Tsu dropping him for certainly hasn't aided the perception of the character). Having air speed tied with Wolf and the 5th best initial dash in the game gives him some options that portions of the cast just don't have because of lacking mobility stats. His MU spread, while not great, is also a big reason why I still believe he's a lower mid tier at worst. Using his b reverse and wavebounce aura sphere movement is just very tricky to use effectively (most mains use them too much for "shmoovement" and end up getting punished hard for using movement with AS in vulnerable ways a few too many times. They also need to stop jumping all the damn time; it's truly remarkable how much your survivability improves when you have a good ground game and don't fish for follow ups in the air you know you're not likely to get depending on aura levels and opponent % and instead punish landings and panic defensive options).

It also takes a special breed of mental resilience to consistently bring out the best in him, and since tournament nerves are a thing, it's understandable most people don't want to pile on the pressure of playing a demanding character that requires significant precision and may or may not be worth such effort in the long run in the views of the majority. He does need some QoL changes and buffs, like faster tilts, a functional up smash and command grab, and faster start up/lower cooldown on aura sphere (so fingers crossed Nintendo addresses those in a later patch), but is most certainly a late metagame character if he's got any opportunity to flourish at all due to the patience and high level of game knowledge required to make him competitively competent.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Snip

Come to think of it, is probably a good character to transition to for Lucario players. Go! is a similar comeback mechanic with similarly great power. I guess on the miniscule chance a Lucario main looking for a secondary reads this post, 's probably a great one

 

[Damned1]

Gonna watch the whole thing later, but i've just quickly looked at the section and Cosmos says that Croc "can't really edgeguard" (compared to ) and also mentioning the lack of combos.

I can kind of understand the latter, but i think i really need explanation of the former. I always assumed that 's strength vs swordies in general is his ability to relatively easily edgeguard them (Nair + projectiles + the fact he can go pretty deep, also Gut Check if you get the timing right).

Am i missing something specific with ?

 

[StrangeKitten]

Gonna watch the whole thing later, but i've just quickly looked at the section and Cosmos says that Croc "can't really edgeguard" (compared to ) and also mentioning the lack of combos.

I can kind of understand the latter, but i think i really need explanation of the former. I always assumed that 's strength vs swordies in general is his ability to relatively easily edgeguard them (Nair + projectiles + the fact he can go pretty deep, also Gut Check if you get the timing right).

Am i missing something specific with ?

Nair and Gut Check should edgeguard Corrin. And lol at no combos, K Rool has forward throw into dash attack, and Krown into imagination at low percents. I'd still think it's a losing matchup for K Rool, but he should have those things.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

i havent seen Riley posted as an elite edge guard character. not like a pikachu, bayo, palutena, joker, shiek, or others.

ridley yes he has damage but how reliable those moves are to land are iffy at best, side b can be mashed out of and leaves you negative, down b is a meme move. even ridley fsmash can be challenged and literally blow up in his face.
the thing is in ultimate mostly thanks to the 1v1 multiplier everyone has damage (RIP SHIEK) but the key is reliability because it leads to consistency.

the other thing is ridley doesnt do damage in a way that makes people go "geez thats not ok." whether they are joking or serious. like compare ridley damage to someone actually scary like wii fit damage, hero, or shulk or ryu. he's not in the same league.

just because damage may be ridley's strength doesnt mean it stacks up everything is relative.

Actually, only neutral B blows up in his face when hit, not his Fsmash.

Also I don't get how you can criticize Ridley for his moves being too unreliable and include Hero in your list of more reliable characters considering they can't do their best moves reliably due to their whole gimmick

 

[Arthur97]

To be fair, I think the Heroes were supposed to be about damage output, but even then...eh? Are they really damage dealing powerhouses outside of some of their RNG?

Plus, Ridley's nair might be one of the best edgeguarding moves. It's big, it can be relatively strong, but even the weak hit isn't terrible for edgeguarding. Plus, fair can work too, and if you want to be safe against some opponents, Plasma Breath may be an option. Sometimes a rather potent one. How can you possibly deny Ridley's edgeuarding ability?

 

[meleebrawler]

i havent seen Riley posted as an elite edge guard character. not like a pikachu, bayo, palutena, joker, shiek, or others.

ridley yes he has damage but how reliable those moves are to land are iffy at best, side b can be mashed out of and leaves you negative, down b is a meme move. even ridley fsmash can be challenged and literally blow up in his face.
the thing is in ultimate mostly thanks to the 1v1 multiplier everyone has damage (RIP SHIEK) but the key is reliability because it leads to consistency.

the other thing is ridley doesnt do damage in a way that makes people go "geez thats not ok." whether they are joking or serious. like compare ridley damage to someone actually scary like wii fit damage, hero, or shulk or ryu. he's not in the same league.

just because damage may be ridley's strength doesnt mean it stacks up everything is relative.

You chide Ridley for not being reliable, yet cite characters that all need some kind of buff active to get their big damage, or in Ryu's case very particular combo starters? Also mashing out of side b only gives neutral frame advantage on both sides, and is really hard to do if you're not at a percent advantage over him or he's dragging from one end of the stage to the other.

He doesn't have big flashy combos that you probably associate with high damage, but almost all of his moves are really good at leaving you in a rather bad spot that lets him check to see what option you'll use to try to escape and cover. You won't succeed in this every time, but the sheer number of times this can come up anytime you mess up against him makes it more than likely he'll sooner or later he'll land his still heavyweight-power moves in sequences that outpace any direct combo, with frame data that is generally fast enough for direct punishes while not leaving himself open for long.

 

[StrangeKitten]

He doesn't have big flashy combos that you probably associate with high damage, but almost all of his moves are really good at leaving you in a rather bad spot that lets him check to see what option you'll use to try to escape and cover.

I think people put too much emphasis on combos a lot of the time. It of course depends on the character - Joker, Pikachu, Squirtle, etc are combo-centric characters that can get you from 0 to 60 if they're really on point. For characters like that, combos are important. But for a lot of other characters, combos don't really matter. Take Piranha Plant for example. It has low% combos in down throw -> fair and up air -> ptooie, but not much past that. I've seen the character looked down on for not having more combos, but for Plant, that doesn't matter. You get said early % combos, then you start going for Ptooies and Poison Breath, maybe even a Long-Stem Strike... and boom, they're already at 60 just like any combo character would have done. I'd say Ridley definitely falls into the same category. Combos don't matter much to him when he simply does a lot per single hit

 

[DougEfresh]

Come to think of it, is probably a good character to transition to for Lucario players. Go! is a similar comeback mechanic with similarly great power. I guess on the miniscule chance a Lucario main looking for a secondary reads this post, 's probably a great one

Terry is definitely not a bad choice at all, having hard hitting moves and good combos to rack up damage at most percents in a stock plus being a heavyweight and GO! for the comeback mechanic can be great things to have for a Luc secondary/co-main. There are a handful of mains in the aura dojo server that use him for that purpose, although seems to be the more common choice for a secondary. He can be difficult to learn to use well, but we're not intimidated by that like many others since Lucario already has a high learning curve and Joker is rather similar in mobility and playstyle to him (and does just about everything Luc can do but better, especially combos and frame data). If you ever look at Jeda's sets, he'll often pull out whenever his Lucario isn't able to make adaptations by game 2 or 3 to level the set back in his favor; or to just deal with more challenging MUs upfront like Flow's or Glutonny's .

For me personally, I sometimes really don't like dealing with heavy zoners as Lucario because AS just gets beaten out by way too many projectiles and moves in this game and using movement much differently to get around their walls to approach is an exercise in patience I'd rather not undergo at times. works well overall as an anti-zoning character for me (plus I waited 20+ years for them to get into smash, so I was never NOT going to play them anyway), and oddly enough, has a very similar emphasis of strengths that has: neutral and ledge trapping/guarding (banjo's also another char that has been written off far too early and takes time to play well with and optimize, but it's going to be scary for a great deal of the cast once that does happen). I also enjoy for a similar snowballing effect that aura can have with his monado arts, but more consistent and great edgeguarding due to his massive range (Idk why I like all the really hard characters though lol).

Anyway, I'm just glad to see someone else think isn't awful. As much as I've remained faithful to him, it's occasionally been hard to stay optimistic about his potential when 2/3 of his best representatives have dropped him in favor of other characters and even several other mains appear to be more pessimistic about him as time goes on. Thanks for sharing your thoughts

 

[Frihetsanka]

Time to talk more about Corrin, my Smash 4 main (and a character I'm strongly considering maining in Ultimate as well, now that she's good and fun to play again). I'll start with some miscellaneous thoughts on placements I disagree with (not including characters I mention when quoting other users):

I'm a bit doubtful of Donkey Kong being +2. His advantage is terrifying, and his range is surprisingly good as well. I'm leaning towards +1 for Donkey Kong.

Pit and Dark Pit I've heard are actually kind of hard for Corrin, might be closer to -1 than +1. I don't really have much experience in the matchup myself but I can see them being Even, arrows are great for gimping Corrin and they can box decently well. Probably an Even MU?

Min Min I'm leaning towards slight advantage for Corrin, but I might be underestimating Min Min (I think she's high-mid tier or maybe even mid-mid tier, whereas many top players think she's top or high tier). Landing is a struggle for Min Min, and while she can occasionally edgeguard Corrin it doesn't seem as free as one might think. It could be Even though, approaching Min Min is very challenging for Corrin.

I don't think Fox or Palutena are -2, probably -1. Pikachu might be -2 but I'm leaning towards -1 currently (at the moment, I don't think she has any -2 MUs).

Well that is an optimistic matchup chart if I have ever seen one. lol

A lot of characters with good keep-away are noted to be +1 matchups, which are matchups that Corrin historically had a lot issues in Ultimate. While her advantage is much better, I don't think Corrin really got anything that truly helps out with those matchups.

Something I do notice, is that he put as even, which is interesting because, unless I am remembering this completely incorrectly, vs was a winning matchup for Corrin.

If we look at Smash 4, her main issues were Sheik, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, and Captain Falcon. She probably does better versus Diddy Kong now (since he got significantly nerfed) and Cloud (same). She probably does slightly better against Captain Falcon since, well, pin kick wasn't safe against him in 4 anyway, and now pin jump is better, so pin might actually be slightly safer against him, and lots of other stuff got buffed instead to compensate for the pin kick range nerf. It's probably still slightly losing (-1), but could be Even. Some Corrin mains think Fox is Even, I think it's probably -1, I don't think it's -2. Corrin still has a sword and can kill Fox more easily than Fox can kill her, but it's a stressful matchup for sure. Zero Suit Samus is still hard, probably just -1 though.

Anyway, these characters don't strike me that much as "keepaway". To some extent, maybe, but that doesn't mean that every character with a projectile is a bad matchup. On the contrary, Smash 4 Corrin traditionally did well versus a lot of projectile characters, I don't think that has really changed. They're annoying to get in on for sure, but once she gets in she can often push advantage pretty hard, and she's better at killing than most projectile characters. I don't think it's too surprising that she should win versus many of them.

Most Corrin mains agree that Greninja is losing though. -1 or -2, I'm leaning towards -1 personally, for the time being.

I think Mario is still +1 but you could make a case for Even, I suppose.

This chart's a good indication of why I picked up Wolf for YL's bad MUs vs swordsmen. I agree Corrin beats YL but Wolf generally does well in the MU. Wolf's blaster being transcendent is a big help and so is his great airspeed vs swords. Wolf can play his midrange game freely. YL generally gets cornered and destroyed in disadvantage.
I can go into more detail if anyone cares.

I would be interested in hearing about that. Many Corrin mains actually think Wolf-Corrin is Even (which is still better than Young Link-Corrin at least, so if you like Wolf it's probably not terrible to go him vs Corrin, up to you to decide). It could be -1 but I'm leaning towards Even.

- He mentions being an even MU because he can combo pretty hard when he gets in, but that can also apply to a good chunk of characters he has in the +1 category ( () just to name a few).

- Why is in even but in +1? If anything, Marth seems harder because if they're both playing the distance game, I'd guess that Marth is much more likely to land his tippers than normal.

- in +1 is certainly interesting given that I've heard that Samus tends to well against most swordies. in -1 is reflective of similar statements I've heard regarding Sheik, however.

I think Wario is Even, I'm on the fence on Pokémon Trainer (Corrin probably wins vs each individual Pokémon, but the character's ability to switch might make it even), Mr. Game & Watch gets outranged and outkilled and Corrin is very good with dealing with Falco's recovery and juggling him in general. I could see Falco as potentially Even but probably not. I think Mario is+1 Corrin but it could be Even. Marth is probably Even as well. Samus I would be leaning Even as well, some even thinks he wins the matchup.

So, Cosmos' Corrin MU chart is...interesting, to say the least. It has her winning 54 match ups and only 12 losing ones, of which pretty much all of them are high and top tier characters. This makes look like a top 15 or 20 character and I don't think I see her buffs from 8.0 making her that good.

I think she has a very good shot at being top 20 or top 25, top 15 seems like a stretch though. I don't 100% agree with every placement but the number of winning and losing MUs seems fairly accurate to me. Corrin is pretty good.

I have to admit, I got a good laugh at watching the section of his MU chart explanation VOD. When I first saw he was put as +2 for Corrin, I immediately assumed it was just to go along with the trend of thinking he's really bad without much explanation but his actual justification for his placement there did boil down to "he's trash and can't do anything against any characters" lol.

Corrin in Smash 4 was +1 versus Lucario. The changes she got arguably made her better in that particular MU (more specifically, more consistent killing). Also, Lucario got nerfed from Smash 4. It's not too far-fetched to consider it a +2 matchup, although +1 is also fairly likely. It's far from free and Corrin still has to work to win.

Regarding /: my experience in this MU is even more limited than the / match up, but I tend to doubt that Corrin has such a remarkable advantage on him (Banjo was put in +1, and very close to being +2 according to Cosmos). I do recall having a more or less losing record against Corrin as Banjo on the few occasions I have played the MU, but I think my losses were much more reflective of lack of MU experience and less than ideal habits that got me punished harder than I should've been. Yes, she can juggle and wall Banjo out well enough, but that's nearly where the advantages end for her and the extent of those can be rather minimized by playing more projectile heavy Imo. Once again, is slow, so she's fairly easily camped out, especially if done intelligently with a character like . Grounded bait and punish with projectiles and other tools in neutral tends to work well for him across many MUs and Idt Corrin is any exception to that. And while his overall advantage state isn't especially notable, the horizontal pressure Banjo has with ledge trapping and egg gimps is a very good thing for us to have in the MU and I'm not sure if it's all that hard to put Corrin in that spot and get some big reward off from it. Pre-8.0, I may have said Banjo actually won this MU and I haven't tested the MU since her buffs, so for now I'm inclined to call it even until I'm able to get more thorough and complete data.

In the stream, Cosmos wasn't sure if he'd put it as Even or +1. Ultimately, I agree with him that Corrin is +1, her ability to juggle and outrange Banjo should give her the edge in the matchup. Keep in mind that +1 does not mean "This is a terrible matchup", it means slight advantage.

Gonna watch the whole thing later, but i've just quickly looked at the section and Cosmos says that Croc "can't really edgeguard" (compared to ) and also mentioning the lack of combos.

I can kind of understand the latter, but i think i really need explanation of the former. I always assumed that 's strength vs swordies in general is his ability to relatively easily edgeguard them (Nair + projectiles + the fact he can go pretty deep, also Gut Check if you get the timing right).

Am i missing something specific with ?

I think Cosmos is wrong about this and it's probably a +1 MU, probably one of the harder heavy MU as well, might even be Even if you're optimistic about K. Rool. Same with Ridley (if you consider him a heavy, archetype-wise he kind of is, even if he's not as heavy as, say, Bowser or Donkey Kong).

 

[DougEfresh]

Time to talk more about Corrin, my Smash 4 main (and a character I'm strongly considering maining in Ultimate as well, now that she's good and fun to play again). I'll start with some miscellaneous thoughts on placements I disagree with (not including characters I mention when quoting other users):

I'm a bit doubtful of Donkey Kong being +2. His advantage is terrifying, and his range is surprisingly good as well. I'm leaning towards +1 for Donkey Kong.

Pit and Dark Pit I've heard are actually kind of hard for Corrin, might be closer to -1 than +1. I don't really have much experience in the matchup myself but I can see them being Even, arrows are great for gimping Corrin and they can box decently well. Probably an Even MU?

Min Min I'm leaning towards slight advantage for Corrin, but I might be underestimating Min Min (I think she's high-mid tier or maybe even mid-mid tier, whereas many top players think she's top or high tier). Landing is a struggle for Min Min, and while she can occasionally edgeguard Corrin it doesn't seem as free as one might think. It could be Even though, approaching Min Min is very challenging for Corrin.

I don't think Fox or Palutena are -2, probably -1. Pikachu might be -2 but I'm leaning towards -1 currently (at the moment, I don't think she has any -2 MUs).

If we look at Smash 4, her main issues were Sheik, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, and Captain Falcon. She probably does better versus Diddy Kong now (since he got significantly nerfed) and Cloud (same). She probably does slightly better against Captain Falcon since, well, pin kick wasn't safe against him in 4 anyway, and now pin jump is better, so pin might actually be slightly safer against him, and lots of other stuff got buffed instead to compensate for the pin kick range nerf. It's probably still slightly losing (-1), but could be Even. Some Corrin mains think Fox is Even, I think it's probably -1, I don't think it's -2. Corrin still has a sword and can kill Fox more easily than Fox can kill her, but it's a stressful matchup for sure. Zero Suit Samus is still hard, probably just -1 though.

Anyway, these characters don't strike me that much as "keepaway". To some extent, maybe, but that doesn't mean that every character with a projectile is a bad matchup. On the contrary, Smash 4 Corrin traditionally did well versus a lot of projectile characters, I don't think that has really changed. They're annoying to get in on for sure, but once she gets in she can often push advantage pretty hard, and she's better at killing than most projectile characters. I don't think it's too surprising that she should win versus many of them.

Most Corrin mains agree that Greninja is losing though. -1 or -2, I'm leaning towards -1 personally, for the time being.

I think Mario is still +1 but you could make a case for Even, I suppose.

I would be interested in hearing about that. Many Corrin mains actually think Wolf-Corrin is Even (which is still better than Young Link-Corrin at least, so if you like Wolf it's probably not terrible to go him vs Corrin, up to you to decide). It could be -1 but I'm leaning towards Even.

I think Wario is Even, I'm on the fence on Pokémon Trainer (Corrin probably wins vs each individual Pokémon, but the character's ability to switch might make it even), Mr. Game & Watch gets outranged and outkilled and Corrin is very good with dealing with Falco's recovery and juggling him in general. I could see Falco as potentially Even but probably not. I think Mario is+1 Corrin but it could be Even. Marth is probably Even as well. Samus I would be leaning Even as well, some even thinks he wins the matchup.

I think she has a very good shot at being top 20 or top 25, top 15 seems like a stretch though. I don't 100% agree with every placement but the number of winning and losing MUs seems fairly accurate to me. Corrin is pretty good.

Corrin in Smash 4 was +1 versus Lucario. The changes she got arguably made her better in that particular MU (more specifically, more consistent killing). Also, Lucario got nerfed from Smash 4. It's not too far-fetched to consider it a +2 matchup, although +1 is also fairly likely. It's far from free and Corrin still has to work to win.

In the stream, Cosmos wasn't sure if he'd put it as Even or +1. Ultimately, I agree with him that Corrin is +1, her ability to juggle and outrange Banjo should give her the edge in the matchup. Keep in mind that +1 does not mean "This is a terrible matchup", it means slight advantage.

I'm just going to take a moment to respond to the and comments you made in relation to my posts above:

I saw Cosmos' stream explaining both characters' placements (otherwise I couldn't have found his justification in putting Lucario +2 so laughable), and know that he wasn't sure initially whether Banjo was even or +1 (and I understand the latter means "slight advantage" as well, but assuming this was ordered, he was still placed very close to being +2 if I'm interpreting the MU chart correctly). And the strengths you mentioned were ones I already conceded to, but Idt Banjo really has to be in the air too much? He certainly shouldn't be against her or any other swordie MUs (because doing so is just asking to get juggled), and I think there's a way for us to mitigate the range and juggling advantages that Corrin has on us. Does she have any good tools for getting off ledge? Because I feel that's where we can really level an otherwise hard MU out for us.

For , the more consistent killing for Corrin after 8.0 in theory sounds like straight up hell for him, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad (or worse) MU than it was pre-patch. Now Idk the character nearly as well as you do, but I haven't seen any kill confirms or other set ups that make her killing more consistent to a significant enough degree that it makes the MU -1, let alone -2. That's kind of the problem I see from a lot of people; they say "oh, so and so has an easier time killing Lucario because x, y and z moves got buffed kill power", but if the character still has to land a stray hit with that now-improved kill move, or otherwise still has difficulty setting up into that move or move(s), then it really has a negligible effect on Lucario in the MU, if any at all.

I didn't play smash 4, so I don't have the same knowledge about what he was like in that game as others who actually played Lucario during that time (my understanding is that in addition to the weight decrease, his ASC confirms, especially ASC to up smash, got gutted in terms of consistency), but uair and bair are still pretty powerful and reliable confirms for him off that. I still think the strategy I mentioned above is rather effective and enough to keep it a level playing field (good mains are highly adaptable and know the opposing character's strengths and the counterplay to those, as well as exploiting the weaknesses they have; the main variable is only the level of patience and composure he or she is able to maintain while playing him to execute those adaptations effectively), especially since we have much better mobility than her.

Alas, we're probably at an impasse, because we're both going to analyze these things from the perspective of our main(s) since those are who we're most knowledgeable on. Despite the natural bias and lack of Corrin knowledge, I really just wanted to share my perspective while accounting for as many objective attributes and strengths/weaknesses that play into those MUs as I could.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

With against , Cosmos played against DDee in an FT10 and won 10-3. DDee has played against both Cosmos and SHADIC and believes Pokemon Trainer is also a losing matchup (Though originally he thought it was even) so maybe Cosmos is right on that one matchup, though it might be best if he plays against other Trainers like Pandarian too.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Corrin outranges Squirtle and a lot of Ivy's stuff too. Has the tools to kill both of them pretty early, and then Charizard's a big target that Corrin juggles well. I'd need to see the MU played offline, preferably a few different trainers vs Cosmos' Corrin, but I can see it being +1 in Corrin's favor

 

[Frihetsanka]

I saw Cosmos' stream explaining both characters' placements (otherwise I couldn't have found his justification in putting Lucario +2 so laughable), and know that he wasn't sure initially whether Banjo was even or +1 (and I understand the latter means "slight advantage" as well, but assuming this was ordered, he was still placed very close to being +2 if I'm interpreting the MU chart correctly).

It is not ordered within the brackets, they're largely alphabetical (Olimar was originally Alph, so Bowser, Banjo, Alph, Bayonetta, Bowser Jr., Byleth, Dark Pit, Dark Samus, Duck Hunt etc., largely alphabetical).

Does she have any good tools for getting off ledge? Because I feel that's where we can really level an otherwise hard MU out for us.

She has all the regular options like roll, getup attack (with decent range), roll, jump. She can also threaten a jump pin or jump Dragon Fang Shot or jump fair. She can also drop down and up-air, which can be really good in some MUs (and sometimes even kill). She's not the best at getting off ledge (she's not Pikachu) but she's not Bowser or Donkey Kong either.

For , the more consistent killing for Corrin after 8.0 in theory sounds like straight up hell for him, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad (or worse) MU than it was pre-patch. Now Idk the character nearly as well as you do, but I haven't seen any kill confirms or other set ups that make her killing more consistent to a significant enough degree that it makes the MU -1, let alone -2. That's kind of the problem I see from a lot of people; they say "oh, so and so has an easier time killing Lucario because x, y and z moves got buffed kill power", but if the character still has to land a stray hit with that now-improved kill move, or otherwise still has difficulty setting up into that move or move(s), then it really has a negligible effect on Lucario in the MU, if any at all.

Some kill confirms that got stronger/true in 8.0.0: Down-tilt to up-air, nair to bair, fair to Dragon Fang Shot, fair to bair. The window will vary and they're not the easiest kill confirms to execute, but it's something. Her raw kill power also got better (bair, up-air, pin kick, f-smash), and f-smash got a larger tipper and is 7 frames safer with tipper on shield and 5 frames safer low/medium range (the patch notes are incorrect, non-tipper hits also got more safe on shield). This makes f-smash a much safer kill option which also kills earlier than before.

I don't see much chance for Lucario being Even in this game, but I'm no expert on Lucario. He seems rather lackluster, and I think Smash 4 Lucario would probably be +1 for Corrin anyway. So +1 and a decent shot at +2 for Ultimate Lucario, sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Lacrimosa]

This looks like a MU chart where a player simply put a character into a category because "it's this character" and some explanations are rather iffy.
Like, he says Corrin can juggle her (fair point, nothing against that) and that she's slowbut then he goes into territory where I can't follow him and than is that Corrin can counter the Phantom when Zelda approaches. Ok, that's fair but I don't know why this would favor Corrin in this MU because a counter is a commitment and Zelda won't just run into that counter.

Of course it's a fairly short breakdown but unlike Fatality's MU chart these explanations feel rather half-assed than anything.

There are other things that Corrin does in that MU and that is a rather good aerial game but then again, against most swordies you should stay grounded as Zelda since you'll lose in the air but either getting outranged or getting juggled.

Because Corrin has the worst mobility of all the swordfighters it's rather easy to keep Corrin out unlike Roy or Lucina and for reference, Mr. E thinks Lucina -Zelda is even or slight Lucina's favor and I frankly don't see how Corrin does better in this match-up, just from the mobility alone (Corrin is slower both on the ground and in the air).

 

[DougEfresh]

Frihetsanka thanks for the clarifications and also the info about Corrin you provided. We may still end up disagreeing and despite maining the character, my skill level would certainly be far off from calling myself an "expert" on him. Lucario certainly isn't great, but I do think he still needs a lot of time to properly use his fantastic movement with aura sphere to amplify his bait and punish playstyle. Similar to , I just haven't seenmuch at all in competitive play at any level, so maybe I've underestimated her strengths and the buffs she received due to general lack of usage.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think people put too much emphasis on combos a lot of the time. It of course depends on the character - Joker, Pikachu, Squirtle, etc are combo-centric characters that can get you from 0 to 60 if they're really on point. For characters like that, combos are important. But for a lot of other characters, combos don't really matter. Take Piranha Plant for example. It has low% combos in down throw -> fair and up air -> ptooie, but not much past that. I've seen the character looked down on for not having more combos, but for Plant, that doesn't matter. You get said early % combos, then you start going for Ptooies and Poison Breath, maybe even a Long-Stem Strike... and boom, they're already at 60 just like any combo character would have done. I'd say Ridley definitely falls into the same category. Combos don't matter much to him when he simply does a lot per single hit

Must be a holdover of the "heavyweight fallacy" from past games, where people would point out their supposed per-hit damage advantage didn't stack up to what combo-centric characters could do, which in turn with their weaker recoveries also usually negated their survivability. What is easy to forget is how hard it was for superheavies to land any hits at all compared to today, where they're not all saddled with bad mobility, frame data and/or no zoning/counter-zoning options. But the mantra of "guaranteed damage is better than potential damage" persists.

 

[Arthur97]

It may also be part of the Smash base's fascination with the flashy. But at the same time heavyweights still aren't great generally. Still, life isn't all about flashy strings.

Then you have Shiek who might make you feel bad until you actually look at the damage you took.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I mean...Ridley does have combos. They aren't crazy 60% combos, but there's still solid ones, and he can start them off of Nair, D-tilt, D-throw or Up Tilt.

Combine that with his top ten run speed, raw kill power, and his sword-like hitboxes and you have a character who has a very strong advantage state all around. He can combo, he can juggle, and he can trap you at the ledge or even go off stage.

The question isn't if Ridley's canon is good or not - it's very good. What we should be asking is if it's strong enough in proportion to his weaknesses. I do think Ridley could stand to have even more damage output, but I think being able to approach projectile users more effectively is more important - then again, an even stronger reward for getting in can help make up for the struggle of getting in in the first place.

 

[Rizen]

I would be interested in hearing about that. Many Corrin mains actually think Wolf-Corrin is Even (which is still better than Young Link-Corrin at least, so if you like Wolf it's probably not terrible to go him vs Corrin, up to you to decide). It could be -1 but I'm leaning towards Even.



I think Cosmos is wrong about this and it's probably a +1 MU, probably one of the harder heavy MU as well, might even be Even if you're optimistic about K. Rool. Same with Ridley (if you consider him a heavy, archetype-wise he kind of is, even if he's not as heavy as, say, Bowser or Donkey Kong).

I haven't played vs since the buffs so these MUs probably got better.
in general does pretty well vs swordies (and everyone). A large part of this is due to his amazing mid range game. He can blaster for damage and interruptions and this forces swordies to approach him. Blaster has a big hitbox for a projectile (many projectiles have terrible hitboxes), is transcendent and has a bayonet; it will beat out most approaches and can be very good pivoted. At mid range it's also no real risk to wolf. IMO blaster is underused by Wolf players. Then he has good burst options in a DA that slides along with a long lasting hitbox, dash grab for mix ups and he has the 6th best airspeed. Wolf is excellent at playing outside sword range then bursting in for big damage. In the corrin MU he has to watch out for pins which burst farther than corrin's sword but it's not too much of an issue. Wolf's blaster and reflector deal with corrin's projectile pretty well.

Because Wolf's air speed he generally has a good disadvantage vs sword juggling. He can move to the side and go for the ledge to land. Corrin's upB is a good tool in advantage because iirc it has armor frames and is big but Wolf is one of the better characters at getting around it.

All this and Wolf has great damage building and kill power. A solid Bair can kill Corrin around 90%. So Wolf doesn't really struggle to finish stocks.

lacks Wolf's transcendent blaster, kill power and air speed making the MU much harder for him. YL's mobility is mediocre. He can get around this in MUs without big disjoints by landing with Nair or Dair, which both cover his body in long lasting hitboxes, but sword disjoints bypass them. YL gets destroyed in disadvantage by swords. All his projectiles lose to hitboxes so in sword range YL is extremely vulnerable; he doesn't have the mobility to burst in or the frame data to beat them at CQC. Corrin also has better sweeping hitboxes than YL who's aerials have diagonal blind spots. It's like there's a big circle around sword characters that YL loses in and they can be very hard to cross up. YL, as always, wins neutral but smart patient play can corner him fairly easily.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Here's a link to the vod containing Cosmos' explanations if anyone's curious: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/687728754

EDIT:

There is a few things that I disagree with after viewing the vod/MU chart:

- He mentions being an even MU because he can combo pretty hard when he gets in, but that also tends to apply to a good chunk of characters he has in the +1 category ( () just to name a few).
- Why is in even but in +1? If anything, Marth seems harder because if they're both playing the distance game, I'd guess that Marth is much more likely to land his tippers than normal.
- in +1 is certainly interesting given that I've heard that Samus tends to well against most swordies. in -1 is reflective of similar statements I've heard regarding Sheik, however.

Yeah, the part where he claims that Corrin has a better combo game than Samus was really confusing to me. Corrin, from what I've seen, doesn't have a 50+ damage combo while Samus can pull off that feat pretty easily. While Corrin's combos last for a long time, Samus has projectiles that can combo at basically any percent. Samus tends to do pretty well against sword characters because she can contest them in the air with Zair and fair. He also just put the miis in +1 without any explanation. In my opinion, Gunner beats Corrin because fair still outranges his aerials, and Gunner has better combos and confirms. Gunner can zone Corrin out effectively since Corrin isn't that fast.

https://smashboards.com/threads/mii-gunner-combo-thread-work-in-progress.479414/

Ooh yay an excuse to complain about this some more!

I am once again asking for a buff to grab ranges to all characters other than tetherers and Palu and Pika. End stubby t-rex arms!

This could make people realize that Gunner has the best frame 6 grab range in the game.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't see much change to grab range incoming. For one, it seemed to be a response to all the grabbing in 4, and also, it might potentially be their attempt to make tether and tether-esque grabs more appealing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So yeah the buffed characters are doing well I take it? That's good to hear. How about Diddy? Has the removal of the infinite had any impact so far? I do like the buffs to F Air and dash attack a lot though, should help his overall game plan a lot.

And what are the opinions of Min Min now she's almost out for a month? Is she still considered good ? Haven't even bought her yet.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean...Ridley does have combos. They aren't crazy 60% combos, but there's still solid ones, and he can start them off of Nair, D-tilt, D-throw or Up Tilt.

Combine that with his top ten run speed, raw kill power, and his sword-like hitboxes and you have a character who has a very strong advantage state all around. He can combo, he can juggle, and he can trap you at the ledge or even go off stage.

The question isn't if Ridley's canon is good or not - it's very good. What we should be asking is if it's strong enough in proportion to his weaknesses. I do think Ridley could stand to have even more damage output, but I think being able to approach projectile users more effectively is more important - then again, an even stronger reward for getting in can help make up for the struggle of getting in in the first place.

Given the results he's had up to this point, it's pretty safe to say his weaknesses are almost, if not exactly on par with his strengths. There's very little wrong with him that isn't part of his design (his down air is pretty much the only move that can really be considered underwhelming for the reward), which means it could be rather easy to break him with even the smallest little tweaks to things like his mobility.

One look at his games should tell one that, unfortunately, a weakness to projectiles is as ingrained to his DNA as his hatred of Samus. He has just never been portrayed with any answer to them that didn't come from an external source or isn't killing his aggressor before they kill him. But! It is worth noting that this is actually the only thing that can consistently shut him down. Other heavies can either have circles run around them or be edgeguarded/spiked fairly easily, but not Ridley with his good mobility and effective recovery with good variety.

I don't see much change to grab range incoming. For one, it seemed to be a response to all the grabbing in 4, and also, it might potentially be their attempt to make tether and tether-esque grabs more appealing.

It's telling that every game until Ultimate had that one character with a somewhat ridiculous disjoint on their non-tether grab: in Melee, in Brawl, and his pivot in 4.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Time to talk more about Corrin, my Smash 4 main (and a character I'm strongly considering maining in Ultimate as well, now that she's good and fun to play again). I'll start with some miscellaneous thoughts on placements I disagree with (not including characters I mention when quoting other users):

I'm a bit doubtful of Donkey Kong being +2. His advantage is terrifying, and his range is surprisingly good as well. I'm leaning towards +1 for Donkey Kong.

Pit and Dark Pit I've heard are actually kind of hard for Corrin, might be closer to -1 than +1. I don't really have much experience in the matchup myself but I can see them being Even, arrows are great for gimping Corrin and they can box decently well. Probably an Even MU?

Min Min I'm leaning towards slight advantage for Corrin, but I might be underestimating Min Min (I think she's high-mid tier or maybe even mid-mid tier, whereas many top players think she's top or high tier). Landing is a struggle for Min Min, and while she can occasionally edgeguard Corrin it doesn't seem as free as one might think. It could be Even though, approaching Min Min is very challenging for Corrin.

I don't think Fox or Palutena are -2, probably -1. Pikachu might be -2 but I'm leaning towards -1 currently (at the moment, I don't think she has any -2 MUs).

If we look at Smash 4, her main issues were Sheik, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, and Captain Falcon. She probably does better versus Diddy Kong now (since he got significantly nerfed) and Cloud (same). She probably does slightly better against Captain Falcon since, well, pin kick wasn't safe against him in 4 anyway, and now pin jump is better, so pin might actually be slightly safer against him, and lots of other stuff got buffed instead to compensate for the pin kick range nerf. It's probably still slightly losing (-1), but could be Even. Some Corrin mains think Fox is Even, I think it's probably -1, I don't think it's -2. Corrin still has a sword and can kill Fox more easily than Fox can kill her, but it's a stressful matchup for sure. Zero Suit Samus is still hard, probably just -1 though.

Anyway, these characters don't strike me that much as "keepaway". To some extent, maybe, but that doesn't mean that every character with a projectile is a bad matchup. On the contrary, Smash 4 Corrin traditionally did well versus a lot of projectile characters, I don't think that has really changed. They're annoying to get in on for sure, but once she gets in she can often push advantage pretty hard, and she's better at killing than most projectile characters. I don't think it's too surprising that she should win versus many of them.

Most Corrin mains agree that Greninja is losing though. -1 or -2, I'm leaning towards -1 personally, for the time being.

I think Mario is still +1 but you could make a case for Even, I suppose.

I would be interested in hearing about that. Many Corrin mains actually think Wolf-Corrin is Even (which is still better than Young Link-Corrin at least, so if you like Wolf it's probably not terrible to go him vs Corrin, up to you to decide). It could be -1 but I'm leaning towards Even.

I think Wario is Even, I'm on the fence on Pokémon Trainer (Corrin probably wins vs each individual Pokémon, but the character's ability to switch might make it even), Mr. Game & Watch gets outranged and outkilled and Corrin is very good with dealing with Falco's recovery and juggling him in general. I could see Falco as potentially Even but probably not. I think Mario is+1 Corrin but it could be Even. Marth is probably Even as well. Samus I would be leaning Even as well, some even thinks he wins the matchup.

I think she has a very good shot at being top 20 or top 25, top 15 seems like a stretch though. I don't 100% agree with every placement but the number of winning and losing MUs seems fairly accurate to me. Corrin is pretty good.

Corrin in Smash 4 was +1 versus Lucario. The changes she got arguably made her better in that particular MU (more specifically, more consistent killing). Also, Lucario got nerfed from Smash 4. It's not too far-fetched to consider it a +2 matchup, although +1 is also fairly likely. It's far from free and Corrin still has to work to win.

In the stream, Cosmos wasn't sure if he'd put it as Even or +1. Ultimately, I agree with him that Corrin is +1, her ability to juggle and outrange Banjo should give her the edge in the matchup. Keep in mind that +1 does not mean "This is a terrible matchup", it means slight advantage.

I think Cosmos is wrong about this and it's probably a +1 MU, probably one of the harder heavy MU as well, might even be Even if you're optimistic about K. Rool. Same with Ridley (if you consider him a heavy, archetype-wise he kind of is, even if he's not as heavy as, say, Bowser or Donkey Kong).

Maybe it's because I play the character, but I don't really get the mentality that having a disjoint means an automatic win against (I also heard this with and when they came out). Nearly EVERY time I hear that, the same thing happens:

1. G&W takes 2-3 hits trying to get in.
2. G&W manages to find an opening.
3. Opponent takes 40~60% damage off of a combo and keeps staying in disadvantage because they have little ways of dealing with sausage fests or air puff parades.
4. Opponent dies from a stray bomb, a sausage-into-chair-conversion, or DSmash/USmash read.

This isn't always how it plays down, but it happens frequently enough that it should be considered much more than people currently realize, G&W/Corrin MU included as well.

I do agree that I don't think Cosmos is considering what the other character can do in the MU enough, but that's a trend that tends to happen in most MU charts.

 

[TennisBall]

So yeah the buffed characters are doing well I take it? That's good to hear. How about Diddy? Has the removal of the infinite had any impact so far? I do like the buffs to F Air and dash attack a lot though, should help his overall game plan a lot.

And what are the opinions of Min Min now she's almost out for a month? Is she still considered good ? Haven't even bought her yet.

In case you hadn't found out by now, two new infinites were discovered for Diddy, although they seem to be more niche than the original, and a bit more difficult. Given the nature of Diddy mains, it's unlikely that they won't master it. I would say he's in a great spot in the meta at the moment.

I'm unsure about Min Min as I don't know much about, but most people tend to say high tier. I have seen cases for top tier but it's few and far in-between.

 

[StrangeKitten]

So yeah the buffed characters are doing well I take it? That's good to hear. How about Diddy? Has the removal of the infinite had any impact so far? I do like the buffs to F Air and dash attack a lot though, should help his overall game plan a lot.

And what are the opinions of Min Min now she's almost out for a month? Is she still considered good ? Haven't even bought her yet.

Hard to say, really. Tournaments are super sparse right now. Gonna be interesting if/when we're ready to reopen, to see how these buffed characters do. I will say, Corrin feels really good to play, and I didn't used to play her very often, so I'm quite suboptimal with her. I think Corrin went from low tier to becoming a very, very solid character. Upper mid for sure, I could even see her on the lower end of high tier.

And yeah, because tournaments aren't being held, it's hard to say where Min Min falls. I think her ability to wall foes out is really good, and her close-range options are surprisingly solid. I could see high tier, but we could really use offline data right now. Online is just too different of a game.

 

[Rizen]

's unique in that she's had no offline exposure whatsoever. All we can do is speculate and say how good she is on wifi, in which I haven't seen her doing anything significant. She feels like a solid mid tier to me, maybe upper mid tier, but not good enough to stand out.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Maybe it's because I play the character, but I don't really get the mentality that having a disjoint means an automatic win against (I also heard this with and when they came out).

Here's my current take: G&W only loses to Shulk, Ike, and Corrin when it comes to swords, the rest are probably Even or winning. Corrin has a really easy time spacing G&W out and killing him in general.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think "short-range character loses to swords" is overblown. In theory, yes, swords should always keep them out. In practice? I've cleanly beat swordies with Yoshi plenty of times. All it takes is paying attention to what your opponent is doing. They will mess up, you will find an opening to start a combo or at least throw out a projectile if your character has one. You have to play a very on-your-toes, bait-and-punish style, and stay grounded for the most part, but once you figure that out, swordies aren't too hard to deal with. Same goes for Min Min, she's not technically a swordie, but y'know. You play carefully with a lot of shielding, and finding your opening isn't too hard

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think "short-range character loses to swords" is overblown. In theory, yes, swords should always keep them out. In practice? I've cleanly beat swordies with Yoshi plenty of times. All it takes is paying attention to what your opponent is doing. They will mess up, you will find an opening to start a combo or at least throw out a projectile if your character has one. You have to play a very on-your-toes, bait-and-punish style, and stay grounded for the most part, but once you figure that out, swordies aren't too hard to deal with. Same goes for Min Min, she's not technically a swordie, but y'know. You play carefully with a lot of shielding, and finding your opening isn't too hard

I feel that the short-range vs swordies being disadvantageous was a stronger notion in SSB4.
The short-ranged, up-to-your face characters, such as , had genuine issues dealing with sword characters, due to the general nature of SSB4, as well the fundamental advantage of having better reach.

However, with , the general nature of Ultimate of well as direct improvements to aspects of their moveset, have definitely boosted their effectiveness against swordies.

Mario in particular is notable for this. After Ally's reign with Mario in SSB4 died down, the character was constantly meme'd on for his issues with sword characters, or characters in general that outrange him. The fact that Cloud, Corrin, and Marthcina were very relevant characters to boot didn't help.

Now in Ultimate, the engine changes, significant reductions in his landing lag, have helped out against Mario's sword issues significantly. He doesn't really have too many problems against them anymore, which combined with Mario's overall power level remaining about the same as in SSB4 while other previous SSB4 top tiers were nerfed significantly, has definitely aided Mario a lot, especially during the meta shortly before quarantine happened.

So yeah, in Ultimate, having short-range doesn't immediately mean that said sword character matchup is difficult to deal with.
The matchup now comes down the your own toolset vs their own, and the interactions that take place.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Yeah, Ultimate's better movement, faster pace, and better hitboxes and balancing are what even out the game for a lot of historically bad things. Are heavies vs combo-centric characters still a bad matchup? Yeah, but the heavies can compete well and still stand a good chance of winning. Short-range vs swords isn't the easiest matchup in the world, but it's equally doable. I've watched some Wario vs Chrom sets and wouldn't you know, Wario won most of them

 

[Aaron1997]

No this video is not a joke even though he Named the tech the Fortnite flash. New Advanced Tech for Mii Brawlers Flashing Mach Punch Neutral Special.