Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nathan Richardson]

Cosmos's opinion and track record against pokemon trainer highlights a fatal flaw that pokemon trainer has.
On a team if one teammate falters the others should be able to pick up the slack and pull through.
The problem is which pokemon can cover for when he falters? The answer is noone. has better range but horrific mobility and while having a combination of range and mobility is too easily bounced around.
The team is so centered around that when he falters it creates a domino effect that causes the whole team to fall apart and don't tell me it doesn't.
Tell me of any pokemon trainer player that can use ivysaur and charizard well but can't use squirtle worth crap and see how well they do versus people only good with squirtle but only average with the other pokemon.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

New Advanced Tech for Mii Brawlers Flashing Mach Punch Neutral Special.

Never gonna call it that, but this Instance Falling Flash tech seems neat.

 

[meleebrawler]

Cosmos's opinion and track record against pokemon trainer highlights a fatal flaw that pokemon trainer has.
On a team if one teammate falters the others should be able to pick up the slack and pull through.
The problem is which pokemon can cover for when he falters? The answer is noone. has better range but horrific mobility and while having a combination of range and mobility is too easily bounced around.
The team is so centered around that when he falters it creates a domino effect that causes the whole team to fall apart and don't tell me it doesn't.
Tell me of any pokemon trainer player that can use ivysaur and charizard well but can't use squirtle worth crap and see how well they do versus people only good with squirtle but only average with the other pokemon.

Okay, even if we're playing the "which Pokemon is carrying the team" game, is it really that hard to just switch twice after a death if you absolutely must be playing as a specific Pokemon?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Cosmos's opinion and track record against pokemon trainer highlights a fatal flaw that pokemon trainer has.
On a team if one teammate falters the others should be able to pick up the slack and pull through.
The problem is which pokemon can cover for when he falters? The answer is noone. has better range but horrific mobility and while having a combination of range and mobility is too easily bounced around.
The team is so centered around that when he falters it creates a domino effect that causes the whole team to fall apart and don't tell me it doesn't.
Tell me of any pokemon trainer player that can use ivysaur and charizard well but can't use squirtle worth crap and see how well they do versus people only good with squirtle but only average with the other pokemon.

I think you're really overstating Ivysaur's and Charizard's weaknesses here. Ivy's mobility is serviceable for her playstyle and which Zard's disadvantage is poor, its very good by super heavy standards.

Which match ups are we talking about here, exactly? Swordies maybe? From my experience Charizard excels in these match ups, being able to outrange them and juggle them around almost as easily as they can juggle him. But those matchups aren't hopeless for Squirtle or Ivysaur either, as Squirt has strong wiff punishing and withdraw as a mix up, and for Ivy a good projectile is always a nice thing to have against swordies.

I don't think PT has any "truly bad" match ups. He loses some, sure (although which ones he does lose seem to be heavily disagreed upon by thise of us who main him), but I wouldn't call any of them terrible, and definitely not solely because Squirtle can't carry his weight any of them.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Maybe I've spent too much time playing Incineroar, Piranha Plant, K Rool, and Ike, because Ivysaur honestly doesn't feel slow to me. Or maybe it's just that I tend to play a very aerial-based Ivy with a lot of nairs and fairs, so the slow ground speed doesn't bother me much. That and, when I am on the ground, I'm usually firing off Razor Leaves and the rare Bullet Seed if the opponent is just above or behind me, which then can lead into them getting sent onto a platform which isn't far away. Up air city, or up tilt if you want to keep up air fresh. Neither of those require much speed to pull off. I recommend this approach to anyone taking issue with Ivy's speed

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Really I find when the opponent is approaching a bullet seed despite it linearity catches opponents easy for good damage. It comes out fast too so anyone touching ivysaur gets launched.

 

[DougEfresh]

I think "short-range character loses to swords" is overblown. In theory, yes, swords should always keep them out. In practice? I've cleanly beat swordies with Yoshi plenty of times. All it takes is paying attention to what your opponent is doing. They will mess up, you will find an opening to start a combo or at least throw out a projectile if your character has one. You have to play a very on-your-toes, bait-and-punish style, and stay grounded for the most part, but once you figure that out, swordies aren't too hard to deal with. Same goes for Min Min, she's not technically a swordie, but y'know. You play carefully with a lot of shielding, and finding your opening isn't too hard

Yea I totally relate to this whenever I use or even . Swordies categorically are thought to be challenging MUs for both of them, especially the former. But I actually enjoy sword MUs as Lucario generally speaking because of the focus and meticulous attention to detail you need to have to whiff punish, catch landings, and cause mis-spacings on their aerials (or just parry and punish that way if you can) to consistently outplay them. It also really helps that most of the sword characters tend to have linear or exploitable recoveries to make edgeguards easier, especially if forced to go low. Handling them is really a great test for how well you can use your movement to force situations where you can get easier punishes and make them pay dearly for their mistakes with the right tech chases and sequences.

I also feel the "reflectors beat projectile characters" is a bit overblown Imo. You just have to know what situations to either use or threaten to use whatever projectile(s) you have in your arsenal as a bait, movement tool, ledge trapping, etc. Just holding onto your projectile in the case of a chargeable one like aura sphere can also be very intimidating to people if done well. Probably just another instance of players overestimating the efficacy of how well their character's tools are able to shut down certain playstyles and moves that other characters have, but ah well. I digress *shrug*.

 

[ZephyrZ]

One more note about Ivysaur's mobility. While her run speed and air speed are very bad, her air acceleration is actually really good, tied with Kirby and Lucas at 15th place. Now I know Kirb isn't the gold standard for air mobility, but having good air acceleration is a really nifty trait for a "sword character" like Ivysaur to have, as it gives you more control over your spacing and is good for fading back after hitting a shield.

Not to say that Ivysaur's mobility isn't a very real weakness. Her slow air speed is a big part of her poor disadvantage state and low overall mobility means that she can't always extend advantage as much as she'd always like (but then again, do we really want a character with that Uair running at the speed of Pikachu?), but Ivy's not a rushdown character. She has a projectile and big disjoints designed to work around that mobility weakness.

Honestly I think Ivysaur's real weakness is a lack of solid landing tools. It can be hard to escape a combo or juggle with her, but at least she still has that down b when put in a pinch.

 

[Nobie]

It's not simply that G&W is bad at swords because he has short range. Rather, G&W's kit specializes in thwarting a certain competitively popular archetype: short-ranged combo-oriented characters who are generally safe hitting buttons against shields. Think about who G&W beats: Peach, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, etc. His attacks have just enough disjoint to mess when aerial approaches, and his Up-B is fast and invincible, which means Mario or whoever can't get away scot-free throwing out nairs.

However, as soon as you outrange his disjoints and Up B, and without using projectiles for him to reflect/absorb, the dynamic changes dramatically. Shulk doesn't care about Up-B because it's not going to reach him if spaced effectively. Nor does Ike. Palutena has literal invincible attacks to battering ram through G&W's defenses. On Maister's last matchup chart, a pre-patch Corrin was listed as even.

That ability to bully fast, safe moves isn't the only matchup factor for G&W (edgeguarding, for instance), but it's a big one.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New tech for Ike

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, what is the list of all footstool-combo capable moves in Ultimate?

Wizard's Foot is only one frame slower than Aether, Falcon Kick one faster. What's the grounded footstool animation FAF? Is it consistent across the cast?

What momentum altering moves have hitboxes that low+fast? Lucario dair? Waft? Hydrant? Cross Chop is probably too high. Fire Fox/Bird/Wolf? I don't think Zelda breaks momentum enough. Doubt Robin or Bowser Jr. can get anything off of it, Hero too. Ridley way too slow.

Plunging dairs? Z-drops?

 

[RonNewcomb]

he says Corrin can juggle her (fair point, nothing against that) and that she's slowbut then he goes into territory where I can't follow him and than is that Corrin can counter the Phantom when Zelda approaches. Ok, that's fair but I don't know why this would favor Corrin in this MU because a counter is a commitment and Zelda won't just run into that counter.

Corrin's counter has no endlag when triggered, and slow projectiles are easy to counter without missing. By the time Zelda gets close enough to Corrin to attack, it's either too late, or too dangerous to attempt an interrupt. So Zelda's plan to force her opponent to move or block, ceding stage control or neutral, Corrin can stand his ground and diffuse the trap.

I'll occasionally counter a projectile with Marcina at a safe distance to avoid losing options (when recovering) or stage control (when trying to get center stage). But only occasionally, because Marcina has endlag even on a successful counter.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Corrin's counter has no endlag when triggered, and slow projectiles are easy to counter without missing. By the time Zelda gets close enough to Corrin to attack, it's either too late, or too dangerous to attempt an interrupt. So Zelda's plan to force her opponent to move or block, ceding stage control or neutral, Corrin can stand his ground and diffuse the trap.

I'll occasionally counter a projectile with Marcina at a safe distance to avoid losing options (when recovering) or stage control (when trying to get center stage). But only occasionally, because Marcina has endlag even on a successful counter.

That is not really true, at least in Ultimate.

The counterattack hitbox duration happens from frames 26-30, with the intangibility ending at frame 50.
However, the FAF is 67, which gives the opponent 17 frames to punish the move, which is easier than it sounds, especially since the move's hitbox duration ends significantly before the intangibility ends.

You cannot, however, punish the move in SSB4, since the FAF on a successful counterattack in that game is frame 50, meaning that the endlag ends right when the intangibility ends.
However, they nerfed the FAF to frame 67 in Ultimate, as well as increasing the endlag on a failed attempt from FAF 64 to 67.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Corrin's counter has no endlag when triggered, and slow projectiles are easy to counter without missing. By the time Zelda gets close enough to Corrin to attack, it's either too late, or too dangerous to attempt an interrupt. So Zelda's plan to force her opponent to move or block, ceding stage control or neutral, Corrin can stand his ground and diffuse the trap.

I'll occasionally counter a projectile with Marcina at a safe distance to avoid losing options (when recovering) or stage control (when trying to get center stage). But only occasionally, because Marcina has endlag even on a successful counter.

It's not about endlag.
Also call me stupid but doesn't Corrin's succesful counter have 66 total frames with the counter hitbox being active on frame 27-31? How does that translate into "no endlag"? I'm probably missing something here. I guess you mean it's invulnerability until f51 but even then it's good punishable?
Going for a counter could get you punished with a grab, meaning getting into position and then press counter isn't that braindead as Cosmos says it is. Also Zelda can throw out a hitbox and then the Phantom comes in. It's a very tight window that Corrin has to use for a succesful Phantom counter and that has to do with how Zelda moves

And even if Corrin counters and gets away because of no endlag: It still didn't hit Zelda and she can set-up another Phantom pretty much instantly afterwards.

 

[DJ3DS]

Actually, what is the list of all footstool-combo capable moves in Ultimate?

Wizard's Foot is only one frame slower than Aether, Falcon Kick one faster. What's the grounded footstool animation FAF? Is it consistent across the cast?

What momentum altering moves have hitboxes that low+fast? Lucario dair? Waft? Hydrant? Cross Chop is probably too high. Fire Fox/Bird/Wolf? I don't think Zelda breaks momentum enough. Doubt Robin or Bowser Jr. can get anything off of it, Hero too. Ridley way too slow.

Plunging dairs? Z-drops?

Bowser Jr certainly has options off of a footstool; Gimr made a video about it a while back. Up B and Side B are both viable in this scenario.

I can tell you that ROB has a downwards item toss that combos into FF aerials for a very long time, and that his down aerial also stalls and hits (barely; it's a 20 frame move and you have 20 frames of advantage in this scenario). His issue is that if you want to land these footstool combos on shorter characters attacking your shield I believe you need a parry...and if you get that parry, down tilt will probably do more for you anyway.

 

[Game7a1]

Actually, what is the list of all footstool-combo capable moves in Ultimate?

Wizard's Foot is only one frame slower than Aether, Falcon Kick one faster. What's the grounded footstool animation FAF? Is it consistent across the cast?

What momentum altering moves have hitboxes that low+fast? Lucario dair? Waft? Hydrant? Cross Chop is probably too high. Fire Fox/Bird/Wolf? I don't think Zelda breaks momentum enough. Doubt Robin or Bowser Jr. can get anything off of it, Hero too. Ridley way too slow.

Plunging dairs? Z-drops?

Jigglypuff has Footstool -> N-air/Rest/Fastfall D-air on some (like about 10?) characters (also depends on if characters were airborne or grounded). Each finisher has their own list of characters it can work on.
Examples: DK and Plant both can be hit by the footstool combo, but DK only in the air (by Rest) and Plant only on the ground (by all three). Pichu and Mewtwo can also be hit by a grounded footstool combo, but Pichu can only be hit by N-air and Mewtwo by D-air.

Edit: Just remembered. G&W can do Footstool -> D-air. Should work on everyone, especially on the ground (in the air, I think you have to follow their drift).

 

[SwagGuy99]

I feel that the short-range vs swordies being disadvantageous was a stronger notion in SSB4.
The short-ranged, up-to-your face characters, such as , had genuine issues dealing with sword characters, due to the general nature of SSB4, as well the fundamental advantage of having better reach.

However, with , the general nature of Ultimate of well as direct improvements to aspects of their moveset, have definitely boosted their effectiveness against swordies.

Mario in particular is notable for this. After Ally's reign with Mario in SSB4 died down, the character was constantly meme'd on for his issues with sword characters, or characters in general that outrange him. The fact that Cloud, Corrin, and Marthcina were very relevant characters to boot didn't help.

Now in Ultimate, the engine changes, significant reductions in his landing lag, have helped out against Mario's sword issues significantly. He doesn't really have too many problems against them anymore, which combined with Mario's overall power level remaining about the same as in SSB4 while other previous SSB4 top tiers were nerfed significantly, has definitely aided Mario a lot, especially during the meta shortly before quarantine happened.

So yeah, in Ultimate, having short-range doesn't immediately mean that said sword character matchup is difficult to deal with.
The matchup now comes down the your own toolset vs their own, and the interactions that take place.

's ability to deal with swords has changed in both positive and negative aspects for Luigi from 4 to Ult. I don't think was nearly as bad against them as or to begin with (the only ones with a good argument for being losing matchups for Luigi were Robin, Toon Link, and Cloud, the rest were close to even and he absolutely destroyed specifically) but some of them were able to make life difficult for him when approaching and playing neutral like and ( as well gave Luigi trouble and probably beat him, but he isn't really a traditional swordfighter whatsoever). He could deal with them offfstage or in disadvantage, but he would often struggle to find a way in in a lot of these matchups with Robin and Cloud arguably being the hardest ones to navigate.


In Ultimate, I don't think as much changed as some people would like to believe regarding how sword characters do against . Several of Ultimate's sword characters lack options to deal with Luigi's tools in neutral like fireball and his new z-air (post buff still struggles with this IMO, as does ). Several of them still have lackluster disadvantage states and lack ways to get Luigi out of their space once he manages to navigate a way in (like ). Now, on paper this seems like he does just as good, if not better against swordies than in 4. And in some ways, he does, such as being able to use both z-air and fireballs to make an opening easier and being able to use a longer ranged grab against these characters from a safe distance are both good changes. Many sword characters in Ultimate are also vulnerable to being gimped and ledgetrapped using a combination of z-air, his aerials, and d-tilt ().

However, there is one area where Luigi struggles much more in Ultimate compared to 4, which is why he doesn't have very many winning swordie matchups. This problem is his recovery. Most sword characters can contest his recovery from a distance using their disjoints, where they are safe from being misfired or being gimped by up-b. Luigi can throw out z-air and fireballs all he wants, but in every single swordie matchup in Ultimate (even the ones Luigi wins) navigating offstage is really tough.

If anyone wants to know which swordies in Ultimate I think Luigi does good against specifically, I'll list it here:

Luigi wins very slightly



Luigi possibly wins (Corrin might be even post patch)



Goes even with Luigi



Hard Even (Cloud might be losing)



Luigi loses slightly

 

[Arthur97]

Curious, as so many seem to have taken the stance of Roy being better, why do you think he does worse against Luigi than Chrom?

Also, what makes Toon Link harder to deal with than the other Links?

 

[SwagGuy99]

Curious, as so many seem to have taken the stance of Roy being better, why do you think he does worse against Luigi than Chrom?

Also, what makes Toon Link harder to deal with than the other Links?

In my opinion, Roy does worse against Luigi than Chrom for a few reasons. It's worth noting that they both have poor disadvantage states against Luigi.

With Roy, Luigi's frame data is fast enough that in some cases, if Roy gets a tipper instead of the hilt or middle of the sword, Luigi can oftentimes escape combos with n-air or down-b. Roy's edgeguarding on Luigi isn't as consistent because he needs to land sweetspots in a lot of cases to kill Luigi offstage, especially at lower percents. Finally, Roy's ledgetrapping, while its still good on Luigi, isn't as consistent due to Roy's f-tilt and down-tilt having to rely on landing sweetspots in order to work properly. Roy has side-b cheese still navigating disadvantage can be tough if Roy can manage to land tippers consistently, but I think most Luigi mains agree that we have a slight edge on Roy.

Now take what I just said about issues Roy has against Luigi (minus the bad disadvantage state) and throw it all out. None of the applies to Chrom. Chrom's ledgetrapping and edgeguarding on Luigi are far more consistent then Roy's, and Luigi has a much harder time escaping disadvantage and playing neutral due to the lack of sourspots on Chrom's moves. Chrom loses Roy's side-b cheese in exchange for a f-tilt that kills near the ledge under 100%, which is extremely effective against Luigi.

I do think Luigi does good enough in the matchup for it to be even, since Chrom's recovery is very easy to gimp and Luigi's advantage state on Chrom is still good, but it's much harder for Luigi to reach those win conditions than it is for Chrom.

With the Links it comes down to a few factors.

Young Link relies on aggression and rushdown, something Luigi is very good at punishing. Young Link's combo game on Luigi is good, but past certain percents, Luigi's floatyness (along with his down-b escape option) make him much harder to combo. Finally, Young Link's fall speed gives him a poor disadvantage against Luigi. Young Link still wins neutral more and can zone you out to an extent, but he usually has to go in eventually in order to get a kill.

Link trades Young Link's lackluster camping game against Luigi for a much worse disadvantage state and speed. Link's range and projectiles are much better suited for camping us out than Young Link's and he can play at a safer distance when he has to go in against us. Bomb is also a much better tool for edgeguarding than anything in Young Link's kit, and Link just has better tools to keep us out. Link is slower, but Luigi isn't that fast either, so that doesn't matter too much overall.

Toon Link shares certain aspects with both of the Links that help him in this matchup. Link Young Link, he's faster but like Link, he has strong camping tools. This means that Toon Link can play a very campy, very patient game against us, where he doesn't have to interact if he doesn't have to. Toon Link's combo game on us is worse than Young Links, but still fine overall. His kill power being more consistent than Young Links is also helpful, and his faster speed than either gives him easier confirms off of his projectiles rather than having to rely on combos Luigi might be able to escape from. Toon Link's floatyness and better air speed also give him a better disadvantage against us than either of the other Links and he's a lot harder to combo in a lot of scenarios.

None of the Links are bad against Luigi, but Toon Link has the best tools against him IMO. It's worth noting that I've seen some Luigi players say Link is a worse matchup for us than Toon Link and Elegant specifically thinks we win against Toon Link and go even with the other two, so not everyone agrees with this opinion, but most Luigi mains do seem to agree we lose to Toon Link.

 

[Frihetsanka]

In Ultimate, I don't think as much changed as some people would like to believe regarding how sword characters do against . Several of Ultimate's sword characters lack options to deal with Luigi's tools in neutral like fireball and his new z-air (post buff still struggles with this IMO, as does ).

Fireballs and his z-air are annoying for sure, but they're not huge issues. His grab combo game is quite good, but that's pretty much par for the course for Luigi anyway. Corrin can juggle Luigi really well, and she can even edgeguard him (if he gets a misfire she can counter and kill really early, if he doesn't she can often backair). Corrin outranges Luigi which is really rough for him. I think it's a slight win for Corrin, which is what Cosmos believes as well (and most other Corrin mains I've talked to about it). Aside from Luigi's grab combo kill, Corrin should have an easier time killing in the matchup.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Out of Ness, Mario and Luigi? S4 Luigi absolutely had more issues with “sword” characters than those other two. Mario might lack in range but makes up for that with a more versatile projectile, FLUDD and has top tier air speed. He can weave easier between swings and had a strong punish game to back limit how much he had to fight his way in. This is all the same story in ultimate, aside probably having an even better punish game. Honestly having FLUDD is really useful in getting stage control without having to directly place himself in harms way against disjointed fighters.

Ness in 4 had issues with swords, more so than Mario due to a lack of speed in the air and ground, but those were mitigated by having a versatile projectile. Ways to add damage remotely (thunder), devastating punish game and amazing ledge trapping and edge guarding which like Mario limited how much he had to fight his way in. The same is true in Ultimate but he has more means of getting around disjoints having a better projectile and more movement options open to him.

Luigi in 4 on the other hand lacked a versatile projectile (his fireball wasn’t bad it just couldn’t be used in as many ways as Ness or Mario) and the best punish game of the three but what really hurt him was how much he slide around when his shield got hit. He was slow on the ground and very slow in the air and had to power shielding otherwise he wasn’t ever getting in on well spaced disjoints. If anything he’s better at dealing with them in Ultimate since he no longer goes half way across the stage for getting his shield hit by a mispaced Lucina Fair and can use run up shield (like those other two were able to and still can do) to close distance and open up more opportunities to get a grab. I agree that their issues with swords is often well overblown, more so in Ultimate it was apparent in 4 but out of the three Luigi absolutely struggles with swords the most.

 

[Myollnir]

Actually, what is the list of all footstool-combo capable moves in Ultimate?

Wizard's Foot is only one frame slower than Aether, Falcon Kick one faster. What's the grounded footstool animation FAF? Is it consistent across the cast?

What momentum altering moves have hitboxes that low+fast? Lucario dair? Waft? Hydrant? Cross Chop is probably too high. Fire Fox/Bird/Wolf? I don't think Zelda breaks momentum enough. Doubt Robin or Bowser Jr. can get anything off of it, Hero too. Ridley way too slow.

Plunging dairs? Z-drops?

I think footstool gives you +21 frame advantage, and it doesn't change from character to character. What changes is the height given by the footstool.

So, the list of everything which works off the top of my head :
Items drop /throws (everything with everyone)
Every stall-then-fall D-air ('s is too slow so you need to have low height from the footstool for it to combo)
Other D-air which work out of a grounded footstool include
Stall-then-fall DownB's that aren't too slow :
Hydrant
Quick Attack
Float aerials
Wario Waft
Solo Popo Squall Hammer
Double jump cancelled Z-air
Double jump cancelled Disable
Rocketbarrel boost (slight charge)
Air Slash
Fly
Fire Fox/Wolf/Bird
Clown Kart (both versions)
Aether
Homing Attack, Spring

These work against everyone AFAIK. There are some more situational follow-ups that don't work against a lot of characters.

Rest
PK Thunder (useless for )

D-air (you have to doublejump cancel IIRC, and / or drift to "headshot" them)
D-air (probably more characters)
N-air, B-air, D-air (from most versatile to less)
N-air
Yeah not going to mention everyone, I don't know every non-global footstool punish, there are way too much.

______________

And more importantly, completely non-official and non-exhaustive character tier list depending on many footstool punishes work on them.

- Awful, everyone can do everything, can even Finishing Touch :

- Very bad :

- Bad :

- Not too bad :

- Good :
the rest of the cast

Sometimes using a double jump after the footstool helps, especially against .

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

BTW, Super Smash Stadium 1 happened today. The first offline tourney with more than 100 entrants in France.
Here are the results. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hxqj2a

 

[Lacrimosa]

BTW, Super Smash Stadium 1 happened today. The first offline tourney with more than 100 entrants in France.
Here are the results. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hxqj2a

Since it doesn't list the characters, the most likely chars these players used are these:

Spoiler

1. Glutonny
2. Leon
3. Tomberry
4. Flow
5. Link91
5. Otakuni
7. Neath
7. Eko
9. Nishinoma
9. Ogey
9. TriM
9. Xetrox

Some notable (i.e. players I recognize ) players that are out earlier:

13. Maeda
17. Yiazmath Goth
17. Naskino
25. Dia (1st on the Belgium PR)

Of course it's not certain, some could've gone other chars but these are the chars they usually use in tournament

That was an actually stacked event.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Since it doesn't list the characters, the most likely chars these players used are these:

Spoiler

1. Glutonny
2. Leon
3. Tomberry
4. Flow
5. Link91
5. Otakuni
7. Neath
7. Eko
9. Nishinoma
9. Ogey
9. TriM
9. Xetrox

Some notable (i.e. players I recognize ) players that are out earlier:

13. Maeda
17. Yiazmath Goth
17. Naskino
25. Dia (1st on the Belgium PR)

Of course it's not certain, some could've gone other chars but these are the chars they usually use in tournament

That was an actually stacked event.

Glutonny used Wolf and Leon used Chrom for their secondaries.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just a reminder that GOML 2020 is happening right now: https://smash.gg/tournament/get-on-my-line-2020-goml-online-fundraiser-1/details

Pools just finished today, with nothing interesting happening, but the fun begins tomorrow.

Just noticed this now, but we have reached page 420 of this thread.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Let's talk a little about Corrin, on how much she benefited from the 8.0.0 buffs and how she compared to Smash 4 Corrin.

I think the 8.0.0 buffs are incredible. Before the patch, Corrin could often struggle quite a bit to secure kills. She had some kill confirms, but they weren't always super consistent, and her raw killpower was lackluster. All of this changed in this patch, every single kill confirm got stronger and more consistent (and kill earlier), her raw kill power got significantly stronger as well. Oh, and her damage potential is better, and pin is much safer since pin jump has a fairly low amount of end lag now (they shaved off 10 frames of endlag, from FAF 40 to 30!).

So if we look at the buffs, well... Tipper F-smash deals slightly more damage and kills significantly earlier (around 15% or so, scary stuff). Oh, and f-smash got 7 more frames of shieldstun on the tipper, and 5 on close and medium range, which makes it much safer on shield. Generally speaking, tipper f-smash will be safe on shield now, which makes f-smash a much more appealing move.

Forward-air got increased damage and compensated knockback scaling. The increased damage means more hitstun, which means better combo potential and making it more consistent into kill moves. Some common kill moves are fair to RAR bair (which got buffed and now deals more damage and kills earlier, making it a strong kill confirm), fair to Dragon Fang Shot (which used to be a 50/50 but with the increased hitstun from fair now is true at certain %), and fair to tipper pin (also true at certain %, if you react to the DI). Oh, and up-air got more damage and kill power, which makes it not only a strong raw kill move, but also a kill confirm: Down-tilt to up-air is true at some % and even if it's not true if they DI the down-tilt poorly they'll still get hit by up-air! Oh, nair into bair is also a kill confirm and since bair got buffed it kills earlier.

Oh, did I mention that aerial tipper has 4 less FAF? It does, making it possible to full hop pin and canceling into a nair or something to autocancel it and land without much lag. Oh, and pin kick kills like 19% earlier now, giving it more raw kill power (I've killed people at like 80-90% near the ledge with a pin kick).

So, is Corrin better after the 8.0.0 patch? Yes, she's greatly improved. Let's compare her to Smash 4: Basically every normal move, except for down-smash, is better in Ultimate. Fair is a bit slower (frame 9 instead of 7) but combos better than in 4 and deals more damage, down-smash's tipper is much worse at killing compare to 4 (though at least it has 5 less frames of endlag). What really got nerfed was her specials: Her up-B used to have really poor range, but it got buffed in patch and now goes noticeable further than in 4. Unfortunately for Corrin, her aerial drift after up-B is low, making it more difficult to recover high. Still, it goes further than in 4, has more intangibility, and kills earlier, so it's not necessarily worse overall (if you recover low it's strictly better than in 4). Being able to go low to edgeguard with back-air is really nice, too.

Her neutral-B got some buffs and nerfs. The bit is a bit worse, it used to be that a partial bite would kill quite early but now it won't kill as early (non-fully charged bites kill less early in general). Fully charged bite kills a bit earlier though, which doesn't really matter that much since it still kills later than partial bite. A bigger nerf is that uncharged shot no longer combos into a full bite, so you might have to settle for a weaker bite. The uncharged shot comes out 2 frames slower (17 instead of 15) and FAF 62 instead of 60, making it slightly slower.

But it did get one noticeable buff: The actual shot can now kill opponents that are off-stage, so if you charge a shot and snipe their recovery you might kill them. I don't think it makes up for the other nerfs but it's still a solid move.

Counter Surge got wrecked, it's basically worse in every way (the only upside is that the counterattack window lasts for 2 more frames, 7-26 instead of 7-24, but that's fairly minor). It kills much, much later. It has much more endlag too, meaning it's no longer that good as an anti-projectile tool. The latter aspect probably hurts the most versus Pikachu (since Counter Surge was so good against him in 4, now it's lackluster), while the former hurts against many characters. It's generally not a move you'd use much in Ultimate, going from one of the best counters to a very lackluster counter, noticeably worse than Lucina's.

And I saved the most important nerf of all, Dragon Lunge, aka Pin. Before the patch, this move was worse compared to Smash 4 pin in most ways. This patch gave it two very good buffs: Stronger kill power from kicks, and less endlag from pin jump, over 10 frames faster than before and compared to Smash 4, and pin jump is intangible from frame 2-7 instead of 2-5 (which I doubt is very significant but hey, it's a buff compared to 4). She can also pin cancel which she couldn't in 4, and this has some occasional use.

But the kick range got buffed, significantly, and it has more endlag, quite significantly as well (11 more frames for forward kick, 25 for back kick). This is the main nerf to Corrin compared to Smash 4. Pin kick is rarely safe in neutral, and usually it's safer to pin jump if you accidentally pin their shield (which, granted, is safer than in 4).

Oh, and a universal change that makes you sometimes makes you turn your back towards the stage makes recovering with bair slightly more annoying, now you have to B-reverse or side-B in order to do it sometimes. Some universal changes are good for Corrin, some are bad. Her grab is rather pathetic in this game, but at least she can pressure shields with charged f-smash (which is a fun buff, since you can charge for around 3 seconds it'll break shield or poke shield and kill them in many cases, if they can't get out in time).

I didn't go through every single change to Corrin, these are just the most significant changes. Still, when you take this all into considerations... It's not looking all that bad, is it? The main issue is pin kick having less range and being more laggy, which is bad, sure, but she got so many other buffs. I don't think she's necessarily all that much worse than in Smash 4. One big nerf, some small nerfs, lots of small bufs and larger buffs.

Overall, I think she should be close-ish to Smash 4 viability. She probably has fewer matchups which she totally dominates (since pin won't easily win neutral versus certain characters anymore), but she should still have primarily slightly winning or even matchups, with some slightly losing matchups (and potentially no really hard matchups, time will tell I guess). In Smash 4, she was generally perceived to be a top 13 character near the game's end (though parts of the community was slow to accept this, many thought she wasn't even top 20 and called her a "high-mid tier" because they didn't like that she has below average speed). In this game, she doesn't seem to be that much worse than in 4 after all the buffs. Top 20 seems very plausible, and if not, then probably top 25. She's good. Cosmos thinks top 15, although given that this game has quite a lot of strong characters I'm a bit doubtful of that. Top 15 doesn't seem 100% impossible, but fairly improbable. Even top 20 might be within her reach. She retains most of the strengths from 4, while getting quite a few new tricks and increased power, although some aspects of her special moves are worse.

Corrin is probably one of the most underrated characters by the non-Corrin mains right now. I can't really blame people because I was a bit hesitant at first for the first week of the buffs, but the more I think about it and the more I see Corrin players like Cosmos and SHADIC play her and the more I play her myself, the more I feel that she's a good character now. High tier, somewhere in the #17-#23 range probably. I don't think she's much worse than Smash 4 Corrin.

 

[GOAT LC]

*thumbs up* I just made a thread about how cool Corrin is yesterday LOL. But of course, my thread isn't NEARLY as professional as yours. I'm a Corrin noob who just had the first impression that Corrin is very cool.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Get On My Line 2020

Top 32

Winner's
BestNess vs Loaf
Lui$ vs Dabuz
Kola vs Lights
colinies vs Sharp
Tweek vs KEE
DKwill vs ESAM
Big D vs 8BitMan
Benny&TheJets vs Sinji


Loser's
Skew vs Slime
SuperGirlKels vs 2thiccnicc
T3 DOM vs Ividal
Myran vs Wrath
MattBro vs Loch
Yez vs Raffi-X
Bmm404040 vs Axel~
(Winner of Riddles vs JoJoDaHoBo) vs (Winner of D.O.M. vs SKITTLES!!)


This has been a pretty interesting event so far.
Dabuz going solo and Tweek going solo , are so far the biggest highlights of the event.
SHADIC got far into bracket, but lost to DKwill 2-1 and then into 2thiccnicc 2-1, ending his run just before top 32.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Let's talk a little about Corrin, on how much she benefited from the 8.0.0 buffs and how she compared to Smash 4 Corrin.

I think the 8.0.0 buffs are incredible. Before the patch, Corrin could often struggle quite a bit to secure kills. She had some kill confirms, but they weren't always super consistent, and her raw killpower was lackluster. All of this changed in this patch, every single kill confirm got stronger and more consistent (and kill earlier), her raw kill power got significantly stronger as well. Oh, and her damage potential is better, and pin is much safer since pin jump has a fairly low amount of end lag now (they shaved off 10 frames of endlag, from FAF 40 to 30!).

So if we look at the buffs, well... Tipper F-smash deals slightly more damage and kills significantly earlier (around 15% or so, scary stuff). Oh, and f-smash got 7 more frames of shieldstun on the tipper, and 5 on close and medium range, which makes it much safer on shield. Generally speaking, tipper f-smash will be safe on shield now, which makes f-smash a much more appealing move.

Forward-air got increased damage and compensated knockback scaling. The increased damage means more hitstun, which means better combo potential and making it more consistent into kill moves. Some common kill moves are fair to RAR bair (which got buffed and now deals more damage and kills earlier, making it a strong kill confirm), fair to Dragon Fang Shot (which used to be a 50/50 but with the increased hitstun from fair now is true at certain %), and fair to tipper pin (also true at certain %, if you react to the DI). Oh, and up-air got more damage and kill power, which makes it not only a strong raw kill move, but also a kill confirm: Down-tilt to up-air is true at some % and even if it's not true if they DI the down-tilt poorly they'll still get hit by up-air! Oh, nair into bair is also a kill confirm and since bair got buffed it kills earlier.

Oh, did I mention that aerial tipper has 4 less FAF? It does, making it possible to full hop pin and canceling into a nair or something to autocancel it and land without much lag. Oh, and pin kick kills like 19% earlier now, giving it more raw kill power (I've killed people at like 80-90% near the ledge with a pin kick).

So, is Corrin better after the 8.0.0 patch? Yes, she's greatly improved. Let's compare her to Smash 4: Basically every normal move, except for down-smash, is better in Ultimate. Fair is a bit slower (frame 9 instead of 7) but combos better than in 4 and deals more damage, down-smash's tipper is much worse at killing compare to 4 (though at least it has 5 less frames of endlag). What really got nerfed was her specials: Her up-B used to have really poor range, but it got buffed in patch and now goes noticeable further than in 4. Unfortunately for Corrin, her aerial drift after up-B is low, making it more difficult to recover high. Still, it goes further than in 4, has more intangibility, and kills earlier, so it's not necessarily worse overall (if you recover low it's strictly better than in 4). Being able to go low to edgeguard with back-air is really nice, too.

Her neutral-B got some buffs and nerfs. The bit is a bit worse, it used to be that a partial bite would kill quite early but now it won't kill as early (non-fully charged bites kill less early in general). Fully charged bite kills a bit earlier though, which doesn't really matter that much since it still kills later than partial bite. A bigger nerf is that uncharged shot no longer combos into a full bite, so you might have to settle for a weaker bite. The uncharged shot comes out 2 frames slower (17 instead of 15) and FAF 62 instead of 60, making it slightly slower.

But it did get one noticeable buff: The actual shot can now kill opponents that are off-stage, so if you charge a shot and snipe their recovery you might kill them. I don't think it makes up for the other nerfs but it's still a solid move.

Counter Surge got wrecked, it's basically worse in every way (the only upside is that the counterattack window lasts for 2 more frames, 7-26 instead of 7-24, but that's fairly minor). It kills much, much later. It has much more endlag too, meaning it's no longer that good as an anti-projectile tool. The latter aspect probably hurts the most versus Pikachu (since Counter Surge was so good against him in 4, now it's lackluster), while the former hurts against many characters. It's generally not a move you'd use much in Ultimate, going from one of the best counters to a very lackluster counter, noticeably worse than Lucina's.

And I saved the most important nerf of all, Dragon Lunge, aka Pin. Before the patch, this move was worse compared to Smash 4 pin in most ways. This patch gave it two very good buffs: Stronger kill power from kicks, and less endlag from pin jump, over 10 frames faster than before and compared to Smash 4, and pin jump is intangible from frame 2-7 instead of 2-5 (which I doubt is very significant but hey, it's a buff compared to 4). She can also pin cancel which she couldn't in 4, and this has some occasional use.

But the kick range got buffed, significantly, and it has more endlag, quite significantly as well (11 more frames for forward kick, 25 for back kick). This is the main nerf to Corrin compared to Smash 4. Pin kick is rarely safe in neutral, and usually it's safer to pin jump if you accidentally pin their shield (which, granted, is safer than in 4).

Oh, and a universal change that makes you sometimes makes you turn your back towards the stage makes recovering with bair slightly more annoying, now you have to B-reverse or side-B in order to do it sometimes. Some universal changes are good for Corrin, some are bad. Her grab is rather pathetic in this game, but at least she can pressure shields with charged f-smash (which is a fun buff, since you can charge for around 3 seconds it'll break shield or poke shield and kill them in many cases, if they can't get out in time).

I didn't go through every single change to Corrin, these are just the most significant changes. Still, when you take this all into considerations... It's not looking all that bad, is it? The main issue is pin kick having less range and being more laggy, which is bad, sure, but she got so many other buffs. I don't think she's necessarily all that much worse than in Smash 4. One big nerf, some small nerfs, lots of small bufs and larger buffs.

Overall, I think she should be close-ish to Smash 4 viability. She probably has fewer matchups which she totally dominates (since pin won't easily win neutral versus certain characters anymore), but she should still have primarily slightly winning or even matchups, with some slightly losing matchups (and potentially no really hard matchups, time will tell I guess). In Smash 4, she was generally perceived to be a top 13 character near the game's end (though parts of the community was slow to accept this, many thought she wasn't even top 20 and called her a "high-mid tier" because they didn't like that she has below average speed). In this game, she doesn't seem to be that much worse than in 4 after all the buffs. Top 20 seems very plausible, and if not, then probably top 25. She's good. Cosmos thinks top 15, although given that this game has quite a lot of strong characters I'm a bit doubtful of that. Top 15 doesn't seem 100% impossible, but fairly improbable. Even top 20 might be within her reach. She retains most of the strengths from 4, while getting quite a few new tricks and increased power, although some aspects of her special moves are worse.

Corrin is probably one of the most underrated characters by the non-Corrin mains right now. I can't really blame people because I was a bit hesitant at first for the first week of the buffs, but the more I think about it and the more I see Corrin players like Cosmos and SHADIC play her and the more I play her myself, the more I feel that she's a good character now. High tier, somewhere in the #17-#23 range probably. I don't think she's much worse than Smash 4 Corrin.

Great post and I might try her out again (when upcoming exams are over) after I didn't play her that much in Ultimate because I felt that she was quite underwhelming.
But reading this, I think I should give her a chance again and it'd be a different playstyle I'm used to by now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Get On My Line 2020

Top 8

Winner's
Lui$ vs Kola
Tweek vs Sinji

Loser's
colinies vs BestNess
Sharp vs ESAM


ESAM notably took game 3 against Riddles using the Min Min.

 

[Neil2TheKing]

Page 420 lol

 

[FruitLoop]

Page 420 lol

nice

 

[The_Bookworm]

Get On My Line 2020 (3251 Attendees)

1st: Tweek
2nd: BestNess
3rd: Kola
4th: Lui$
5th: Sinji
5th: Sharp
7th: colinies
7th: ESAM
9th: SuperGirlKels
9th: Wrath
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Riddles
13th: Slime
13th: T3 DOM
13th: Lights
13th: Dabuz
17th: Benny&TheJets
17th: Big D
17th: DKwill
17th: KEE
17th: Loch
17th: Raffi-X
17th: Bmm404040
17th: Loaf
25th: Skew
25th: 2thiccnicc
25th: Ividal
25th: Myran
25th: MattBro
25th: Yez
25th: Axel~
25th: SKITTLES!!
33rd: SonamSlash
33rd: PlayZ
33rd: Smallleft
33rd: Kami
33rd: Sogoodpop
33rd: Epic_Gabriel
33rd: prismoid
33rd: Vendetta
33rd: Rickles
33rd: D.O.M.
33rd: JoJoDaHoBo
33rd: Atticus
33rd: ShortBloom
33rd: SHADIC
33rd: Signas
33rd: Guts

Cool amount of character variety today.
The buffed characters didn't really make too much of a wave here, but it is mostly because their best players did not participate here.

Page 420 lol

I already made that joke....

 

[Rizen]

Interesting to see Kola's using . A few things from the last page:
IMO beats +1. If YL plays keep away Luigi has a terrible time chasing him down and does not have the oppressive hitboxes to exploit YL's disadvantage. What Luigi does have is an amazing combo game with a literal 0-death and he out-buttons YL hard up close so it's still not a terrible MU.
Someone mentioned losing to swords, IMO has a +1 advantage against him. Link's sword safely pokes him and G&W's bucket only absorbs bombs and reflects other projectiles back with only 60% of the range so Link has little risk tossing projectiles out.

Get On My Line 2020 (3251 Attendees)

1st: Tweek
2nd: BestNess
3rd: Kola
4th: Lui$
5th: Sinji
5th: Sharp
7th: colinies
7th: ESAM
9th: SuperGirlKels
9th: Wrath
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Riddles
13th: Slime
13th: T3 DOM
13th: Lights
13th: Dabuz
17th: Benny&TheJets
17th: Big D
17th: DKwill
17th: KEE
17th: Loch
17th: Raffi-X
17th: Bmm404040
17th: Loaf
25th: Skew
25th: 2thiccnicc
25th: Ividal
25th: Myran
25th: MattBro
25th: Yez
25th: Axel~
25th: SKITTLES!!
33rd: SonamSlash
33rd: PlayZ
33rd: Smallleft
33rd: Kami
33rd: Sogoodpop
33rd: Epic_Gabriel
33rd: prismoid
33rd: Vendetta
33rd: Rickles
33rd: D.O.M.
33rd: JoJoDaHoBo
33rd: Atticus
33rd: ShortBloom
33rd: SHADIC
33rd: Signas
33rd: Guts

Cool amount of character variety today.
The buffed characters didn't really make too much of a wave here, but it is mostly because their best players did not participate here.


I already made that joke....

The nation already made that joke.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Interesting to see Kola's using . A few things from the last page:
IMO beats +1. If YL plays keep away Luigi has a terrible time chasing him down and does not have the oppressive hitboxes to exploit YL's disadvantage. What Luigi does have is an amazing combo game with a literal 0-death and he out-buttons YL hard up close so it's still not a terrible MU.
Someone mentioned losing to swords, IMO has a +1 advantage against him. Link's sword safely pokes him and G&W's bucket only absorbs bombs and reflects other projectiles back with only 60% of the range so Link has little risk tossing projectiles out.

The nation already made that joke.

Hate to rain of your parade, but Kola only really used Young Link in pools. The rest of the tournament pretty much just Cloud/Roy.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Get On My Line 2020 (3251 Attendees)
Cool amount of character variety today.
The buffed characters didn't really make too much of a wave here, but it is mostly because their best players did not participate here.

Diddy Kong got buffed and won the tournament, Dabuz also used solo Pit/Dark Pit and got 13th who also got buffed. I'd say they did make a wave here, but were specifically used by top 10 players.

 

[PK Gaming]

Corrin is significantly better now, but I also legitimately think she's also better than her Smash 4 incarnation as well. Cosmos does too

She can actually take advantage of the system changes inherent to Smash Ultimate, has better moves across the board and noticeably better shield pressure. That isn't to say she's Top Tier, but she's definitely strong enough to warrant consideration in tournaments. Competitive viability aside, I think they struck a good balance of not making her too one dimensional and reliant on an overtuned move (Smash 4) or weak in most areas (pre patch Smash Ultimate). She has an actual niche now and is fun as hell (basically sword Mario)

Min Min is completely ridiculous btw. I still hold firm in my belief that she'll be a problem at all levels once the pandemic lets up.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Forgot to mention this too, but this is the Captain's Quarters 4.

1st: LeoN
2nd: Sinji
3rd: Sharp
4th: The6Master
5th: Aikota
5th: Walnut
7th: yumeko
7th: Lights (DQ'ed at loser's)
9th: rm8
9th: Kola (DQ'ed at winner's quarterfinals and at loser's)
9th: ATATA
9th: NAI

Relatively small event all things considered, and I think Lights and Kola DQ'ed in order to focus on GOML 2020 instead, but something to note.

As for Corrin, I am still approaching this character with cautious optimism. I want to see the character get (consistent) tournament success before jumping on the high tier train with the character.
I dunno. Whenever I play the character, I still feel like something essential is missing with the character.
Either way, I am kind of afraid of another 7.0 situation from happening again: being the talk of the town thanks to the buffs, but ultimately not delivering in their promises.

I want to see relevant tournament placements before hopping on the Corrin hype train that this thread is obviously jumping in on so quickly.

 

[NotLiquid]

Watching ESAM's stream while he played Min Min there was a notable moment for me right before he took Riddles' last stock, which was when he forced Ryu off-stage. He already popped off before he even got the first KO flash Ramram edgeguard.

Pretty funny moment which also kind of says it all in its inherent comedy.