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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    587

ZephyrZ

But.....DRAGONS
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Having to juggle Pokemon Trainer's three characters is honestly a huge part of the reason I love the character. Each character on their own is fairly basic, so the skill floor is pretty low, but they come together to form a character who has a high ceiling overall and a ton of room for optimization.

It always feels like there's some area to improve in with PT, and that helps keep practice interesting and exciting. I could practice technical combos with Squirtle one moment, then practice microspacing with Ivysaur the next. And between the three characters there's so many different ways to approach a game or matchup that it feels like there's endless room for optimization. Sure it can be a little tiring but that's why I sometimes take breaks to play simpler characters like Bowser before going back and polishing my PT some more.

I loved solo Zard, but sometimes it just felt like I'd hit a brick wall with him and that's such a frustrating feeling.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Wolf is still very scary. Of course. The nerfs aren't so bad either, because if you get hit by dsmash at the ledge you are probably dead either way. Having nice reward off a grab is still really nice. Etc etc, all his stuff is solid. I think he fell a bit because he was everyone's pocket for a while and the meta has diversified. Mediocre disadvantage and people no longer eating 50% from blaster hurts though.

Pika doesn't have safe, ranged kill confirms. Dtilt is the closest, but if you are DIing up you probably won't die. If you DI down or away he can try for the jab lock and still dash attack you for the kill though, if he reacts fast enough. But for kill power he is fine, you should die at kill percent if you get hit by nair, anywhere near the ground/a platform especially. You can also die if you get fair'd anywhere near the blastzone, of course his edgeguarding speaks for itself. He has a stock cap kill throw and a pretty great grab range (wtf when pika and pichu have some really deceptive grabs in this game). Dash attack is a great kill option as well, and even players as good as Dark Wizzy were dropping punishes on it frequently enough to warrant a mention. it is quite awkward to punish. But you should be able to usmash OoS against it, which means it isn't really safe.


I'm excited to see if ESAM gets it down exactly, because uthrow thunder is in fact still a thing. It is a bit different and still extremely precise on percent ranges and execution. If you go behind him for uthrow I don't believe he can hit you, but dthrow covers that.

Hell even uair will kill with the sweetspot at surprising percentages.

Fair dragdown still needs some optimization but gives you a bit more ranges for the dragdown stuff. Biggest issue here is whether SDI becomes effective, but its damn hard to SDI and still react to what pika does on the ground, haven't seen it yet.

Ftilt kills angled down at the ledge, and angled up in neutral or off of a fair dragdown.


I still think his biggest struggle is actually how slow he is in the air, if you don't quick attack you aren't going anywhere fast off the ground. That said he still has a ton of mixups here, since his landing nair is deadly and his bair/dair have landing hitboxes that are pretty much instant.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I don't really know how we got on the topic of PT buffs, but I don't really think any of them need to be changed. The point isn't really to play them individually but to play them as a team and buffing the Pokemon to be better individually could make them even better when used as a team which could harm the meta in the future.

Even if the Pokemon aren't buffed, I think (unpopular opinion time) that they are all actually OK characters when used individually, it's just noticeably harder than when they are used together since it is much easier to notice the weaknesses that players would normally use the other Pokemon to compensate for.
 
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Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
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Aug 30, 2016
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Warren MI.
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Zeratrix
I'm not going to deny squirtle's low profile, he's shorter than ivysaur so he makes a small target (most things go flying right over his head even when he DOESN'T duck) thing is he doesn't have any range, nearly all of his moves are CQC meaning he typically has to get right up in his opponents face in order to even do anything. The starfox team outranges him, G & W outranges him, almost everyone outranges him! He has some good buttons but his range is godawful.
Zard is the second best super heavyweight in the game.
I actually believe him to be third best behind DK and Bowser.
 
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Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
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Aug 30, 2016
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796
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Warren MI.
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Zeratrix
Why would you switch from zard when squirtle is so light? Zard is just as much combo food as DK is and DK has moves with actual shield pressure not to mention longer, intangible limbs.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
DK has a lot of issues, namely that several of his attacks (and all 3 tilts) are unsafe on hit at low %, as well as poor recovery, bad disadvantage, meh OoS options, committal kill moves, meh framedata, and underwhelming as well as predictable approach options. He actually only has two moves that are really good on shield, his aerial Down-B and fully charged Neutral-B. His grab game is pretty good.

Zard has an easy escape option, a smaller hurtbox, better framedata, better airgame, longer and safer recovery, excellent OoS options, and almost just as much disjointed reach, if not more (all of his tail and wing attacks, as well as some moves like fsmash and up air are disjointed and/or intangible) and excellent kill options. His grab game includes three kill throws, two combo throws, and high damage. Plus, ledgetrapping with Flamethrower.

Trust me, :ultcharizard:>:ultdk:

If I had to rank all the heavies in order, I'd go :ultbowser:>:ultcharizard:>:ultdk:>:ultkingdedede:>:ultpiranha:>:ultincineroar:>:ultganondorf:>:ultkrool:

On the last four, I wasn't entirely sure on which goes where, and D3 can make a case for better than DK.
 
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KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
I hope Europe and Mexico get more attention for the next PGR; they're easily the most talented regions after US and Japan, and have some really good players outside of just Gluttony, Mr. R, Maister, and MKLeo (Europe has Space, quiK, Tru4, Homika, etc. and Mexico has Chag, Regi, Sparg0, Meme, Joker, etc.).

In other news, both EVO Japan and Genesis 7 start very soon; seedings have been revealed for both events:

EVO Japan Seedings: https://smashboards.com/threads/evo-japan-2020-discussion-thread.498190/

Genesis 7 Seedings: https://smashboards.com/threads/genesis-7-discussion-thread.498311/
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,578
I hope Europe and Mexico get more attention for the next PGR; they're easily the most talented regions after US and Japan, and have some really good players outside of just Gluttony, Mr. R, Maister, and MKLeo (Europe has Space, quiK, Tru4, Homika, etc. and Mexico has Chag, Regi, Sparg0, Meme, Joker, etc.).

In other news, both EVO Japan and Genesis 7 start very soon; seedings have been revealed for both events:

EVO Japan Seedings: https://smashboards.com/threads/evo-japan-2020-discussion-thread.498190/

Genesis 7 Seedings: https://smashboards.com/threads/genesis-7-discussion-thread.498311/
Fittingly enough, there's a new European tournament with over 1,000 slots avaliable. It's going to be an A tier for sure, and could potentially be S tier.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
#1-10 is here:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

Who is #1 this season surprises pretty much no one.

1st: MkLeo:ultjoker:(:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultchrom:) 0
2nd: Samsora:ultpeach: +2
3rd: Tweek:ultpokemontrainerf::ultwario:(:ultjoker::ultbanjokazooie:) -1
4th: Nairo:ultpalutena:(:ultzss:) +4
5th: Marss:ultzss:(:ultmegaman::ultsnake:) -2
6th: Maister:ultgnw: New
7th: Zackray:ultjoker::ultrob:(:ultwolf::ultgnw::ultmario:) +5
8th: Glutonny:ultwario: +6
9th: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:(:ultpalutena:) -2
10th: Light:ultfox:(:ultfalco:) 0
11th. Kameme:ultmegaman::ultwario:(:ultsheik:) +8
12th. Tea:ultpacman:(:ultdk:) +3
13th. Shuton:ultolimar:(:ultshulk::ultrichter:) -8
14th. ESAM:ultpikachu:+2
15th. T:ultlink: +32
16th. KEN:ultsonic: New
17th. Raito:ultduckhunt:(:ultbanjokazooie:) +3
18th. Kuro:ultzss:New
19th. ProtoBanham:ultlucina:(:ultinkling::ultbanjokazooie:)+4
20th. WaDi:ultrob:(:ultwiifittrainerm:)+4
21st: Lea:ultgreninja:(:ultchrom:) +9
22nd: Dark Wizzy:ultmario: +9
23rd: Cosmos:ultinkling: -12
24th: Abadango:ultpalutena::ultwario::ultinkling:(:ultmetaknight:) +16
25th: Kome:ultshulk: New
26th: Choco:ultzss: New
27th: Nietono:ultpichu:(:ultwario:) +18
28th: LeoN:ultbowser:(:ultbowserjr::ultgnw:) +7
29th: Gackt:ultness: New
30th: Salem:ultsnake::ulthero:(:ultshulk::ultbayonetta:) -8
31st: Raffi-X:ultrob: New
32nd: Elegant:ultluigi: New
33rd: Pandarian:ultpokemontrainerf: New
34th: Etsuji:ultlucina:(:ultpalutena:) New
35th: Umeki:ultdaisy: +7
36th: Nicko:ultshulk: New
37th: Ned:ultpokemontrainer:(:ultjoker:) New
38th: VoiD:ultpichu::ultsheik:(:ultjoker:) -29
39th: Lui$:ultfox:(:ultmario::ultfalco:) New
40th: ScAtt:ultmegaman::ultsnake: +1
41st: HIKARU:ultpokemontrainer:(:ultluigi::ultbanjokazooie:) New
42nd: Goblin:ultroy:(:ultchrom:) -3
43rd: BestNess:ultness:(:ultpalutena:) New
44th: Mr R:ultchrom::ultsnake:(:ultyounglink::ultsheik:) -8
45th: RFang:ultpichu:(:ultpalutena:) New
46th: Kola:ultroy::ultcloud:(:ultsnake:) New
47th: Riddles:ult_terry:(:ultken::ultjoker::ultrichter:) New
48th: Kirihara:ultrosalina: New
49th: Big D:ulticeclimbers:(:ultkingdedede:) New
50th: Ron:ultyoshi:(:ultmario::ultluigi:) New
A51: yeti:ultmegaman: -17
A51: Wrath:ultsonic:(:ultjoker:) New
A51: Myran:ultolimar: -38
A51: Leffen:ultpokemontrainerf: New
A51: Eim:ultjoker: New
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Meteoric rise for Maister. I will admit, I was very quick to assume MU unfamiliarity was plaguing the midwest when he was first on the scene... its now clear he is pretty damn good, both Maister and GaW that is. My biggest remaining question is whether he will continue to best PGR players, or will figuring out the MU cost him in the long run.



Also, I really think Maister's bad habits are a GaW factor as much as a player factor. Barring the SDs, most notable to me is the dair's in disadvantage... but what is GaW to do? Fair won't protect him from any hitboxes, FFAD is ok but punishable and if he has already used his fire then he doesn't exactly have a fast option out of it. Nair covers below him worse than most of them... B reverse chef is really committal. There is bucket stalling but that isn't exactly unexplored territory and it protects you less than dairs.


I think he will start to use less Usmash spam in clutch situations, but on the same token those high pressure situations is where it can give you the most, and some characters can barely contest it meaningfully anyways. I mean everyone can get a dash attack or something but honestly its really scary in that moment because if something goes wrong you are exploding off the top and that doesn't really cover your risk. He also mixes up the release timing and he is back in neutral preeetty quick after the actual release.


Greninja can be tricky with dair and time it to autocancel right before the ground, and can also directional airdodge out of the end etc. While it doesnt' have as good a hitbox, bouncing off of shield and spiking throughout are things many dairs wish they had. (I'm glad GaW's doesn't spike throughout lol) Not sure if GaW can do the same, but it is certainly a nice mixup. In a juggle heavy game being able to return quickly to the ground is a nice trait, both for whiff punishes and for when you trade and want to race them to the ground. Its a good move, all things considered, but having one good option is much worse than having two!
 
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ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
That's around...what, 2/3rds of the cast represented somewhere in the top 50? NGL, I'm impressed by that amount of diversity.

First number is mains, second number is secondaries. (That's what the parentheses are symbolizing, right?) Samus/Dark Samus, Peach/Daisy, Pit/Dark Pit, and Ryu/Ken echo pairs lumped together.

:ultbanjokazooie: 0 (+4)
:ultbayonetta: 0 (+1)
:ultbowser: 1 (+0)
:ultbowserjr: 1 (+0)
:ultcloud: 1 (+0)
:ultdk: 0 (+1)
:ultduckhunt: 1 (+0)
:ultfalco: 0 (+2)
:ultfox: 2 (+0)
:ultgreninja: 1 (+0)
:ulthero: 1 (+0)
:ulticeclimbers: 1 (+0)
:ultinkling: 2 (+1)
:ultjoker: 2 (+4)
:ultkingdedede: 0 (+1)
:ultlink: 1 (+0)
:ultluigi: 1 (+2)
:ultmario: 1 (+3)
:ultmarth: 0 (+1)
:ultlucina: 2 (+1)
:ultmegaman: 2 (+1)
:ultmetaknight: 0 (+1)
:ultgnw: 1 (+2)
:ultness: 2 (+0)
:ultolimar: 2 (+0)
:ultpacman: 1 (+0)
:ultpalutena: 2 (+4)
:ultpeach::ultdaisy: 2 (+0)
:ultpichu: 3 (+0)
:ultpikachu: 1 (+0)
:ultpokemontrainer: 4 (+0)
:ultrob: 3 (+0)
:ultrosalina: 2 (+0)
:ultroy: 2 (+0)
:ultchrom: 1 (+3)
:ultryu::ultken: 0 (+1)
:ultsheik: 1 (+2)
:ultshulk: 2 (+2)
:ultsimon::ultrichter: 0 (+2)
:ultsnake: 3 (+2)
:ultsonic: 1 (+0)
:ult_terry: 1 (+0)
:ultwario: 4 (+1)
:ultwiifittrainer: 0 (+1)
:ultwolf: 0 (+1)
:ultyoshi: 1 (+0)
:ultyounglink: 0 (+1)
:ultzss: 3 (+1)

Unrepresented characters: :ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultdiddy::ultdoc::ultganondorf::ultike::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultlucas::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter::ultpiranha::ultpit::ultridley::ultrobin::ultsamus::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultzelda:
 

Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
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2,005
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Ontario, Canada
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Krysco
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That's around...what, 2/3rds of the cast represented somewhere in the top 50? NGL, I'm impressed by that amount of diversity.

First number is mains, second number is secondaries. (That's what the parentheses are symbolizing, right?) Samus/Dark Samus, Peach/Daisy, Pit/Dark Pit, and Ryu/Ken echo pairs lumped together.

:ultbanjokazooie: 0 (+4)
:ultbayonetta: 0 (+1)
:ultbowser: 1 (+0)
:ultbowserjr: 1 (+0)
:ultcloud: 1 (+0)
:ultdk: 0 (+1)
:ultduckhunt: 1 (+0)
:ultfalco: 0 (+2)
:ultfox: 2 (+0)
:ultgreninja: 1 (+0)
:ulthero: 1 (+0)
:ulticeclimbers: 1 (+0)
:ultinkling: 2 (+1)
:ultjoker: 2 (+4)
:ultkingdedede: 0 (+1)
:ultlink: 1 (+0)
:ultluigi: 1 (+2)
:ultmario: 1 (+3)
:ultmarth: 0 (+1)
:ultlucina: 2 (+1)
:ultmegaman: 2 (+1)
:ultmetaknight: 0 (+1)
:ultgnw: 1 (+2)
:ultness: 2 (+0)
:ultolimar: 2 (+0)
:ultpacman: 1 (+0)
:ultpalutena: 2 (+4)
:ultpeach::ultdaisy: 2 (+0)
:ultpichu: 3 (+0)
:ultpikachu: 1 (+0)
:ultpokemontrainer: 4 (+0)
:ultrob: 3 (+0)
:ultrosalina: 2 (+0)
:ultroy: 2 (+0)
:ultchrom: 1 (+3)
:ultryu::ultken: 0 (+1)
:ultsheik: 1 (+2)
:ultshulk: 2 (+2)
:ultsimon::ultrichter: 0 (+2)
:ultsnake: 3 (+2)
:ultsonic: 1 (+0)
:ult_terry: 1 (+0)
:ultwario: 4 (+1)
:ultwiifittrainer: 0 (+1)
:ultwolf: 0 (+1)
:ultyoshi: 1 (+0)
:ultyounglink: 0 (+1)
:ultzss: 3 (+1)

Unrepresented characters: :ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultdiddy::ultdoc::ultganondorf::ultike::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultlucas::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter::ultpiranha::ultpit::ultridley::ultrobin::ultsamus::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultzelda:
Random, potentially useful things to note are that Joker and Palutena have the highest overall use when including both mains and secondaries at 6. Joker has 3 players that use him in the top 10 while Palutena has 2. Most mained in the top 50 is a tie between Pokemon Trainer and Wario at 4 mains while the characters that are secondaries the most are Joker, Palutena and Banjo, also at 4 each.

As for the unrepresented characters, there's some players that could end up in the top 50 in the future that use Falcon such as NickC and Fatality, Ike has Ryuga, Incineroar has Magister at best, Villager and Isabelle have Kept and Panda Bair, Puff has Bassmage, Kirby has FerretKuma, Lucario has Tsu although as a secondary, Plant has Brood, Robin has Jul Samus has quiK and Joker, Toon Link has Hyuga, Lv. 1 and Sigma and Zelda has Mysterica and ven. Corrin could end up on there if Cosmos continues to use them. I'm not aware of any players that often get high results for Diddy (I know Rivers has one though), Doc, Ganon, K. Rool, Mac, Lucas, Mewtwo, the Miis, Pit or Ridley (at best I can think of Locus who has him as a secondary/pocket).
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
PGStats wasn't kidding about the "Zero to Hero" statement; good stuff to Maister from jumping all the way from unranked to just barely shy of Top 5, and I'm definitely hoping more players will follow suit my money's on Joker or quiK.

That said, in terms of where he is right now in Season 3, results have been mixed: Top 8 at an S Tier is respectable and he still continues to be the bane of some top level players' existences, most notably ESAM and Samsora (fun fact, Samsora lost 0-10 in a first to 10 online match against Maister yesterday). That said, 17th at an Glitch 8 with no notable wins isn't a very strong follow-up, especially when he was projected to win the entire thing. Whether or not he can bounce back from that, we'll see at Genesis 7.

In other news, patch 7.0.0 is coming up, and it'll indeed have fighter adjustments
There was a problem fetching the tweet

Whether or not they'll actually have nerfs might as well be a mystery at this point, but if 6.0.0 is of any indication, it's safe to assume there'll either be buffs and/or bug fixes.
 
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Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
I know wifi vs local has been covered to death so I'll say this quickly, I think GaW gets more from input lag than Peach (or did he use ZSS?). It still shows us some stuff, and keeps with the narrative that he has a real GaW problem. But I would bet he would at least put up a few games in a local match. That said, sometimes those problem MUs get worse as they become more familiar with why exactly they are abusing you.



Is there anyone in the PGR that Maister lost at first but has been beating recently? The reason I wonder how GaW fares as people learn the MU comes down to light a lot, that MU seems explosive but also tough for Fox compared to other top characters. His range and recovery are a problem, and while he does blow GaW really quick that is offset by how hard it is to combo GaW (and tons of fox damage is pressure strings, not combos).

On the other hand, Light is a parry master so as he learns GaW'/ maister's timing it makes sense he will start doing better. But this is what I mean about people learning GaW, everyone has the parry available (though not the same punishes and light is probably the best by a decent margin, rapidly closing as I see more and more parries optimized).


I want someone to bring out Parry Footstool Canceling in a game. That ish looks pretty good, and it seems like something you could do semi-consistently in a real game if people are doing attack canceling consistently.
 

VodkaHaze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
400
NNID
VodkaHaze58
Say what you will about :ultgnw:, but Maister has been a dark horse in the competitive scene, going from unranked to #6 on PGR in one season. This shows not only is he a good player but he turned everyone's opinion on this character around - myself included. Now players like Samsora, zackray and LeoN are using Mr. Game & Watch as a secondary, which is a big turnaround from the consensus that he was bottom tier.

It'll be funny if we get the same surprise next season, where a character commonly thought of as bad becomes a serious threat, but this could happen with big buffs.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
I certainly hope I'm not too late to talk about how the idea that Maister - at #6 in the world - is being held back by Game & Watch is extreme cap.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
I certainly hope I'm not too late to talk about how the idea that Maister - at #6 in the world - is being held back by Game & Watch is extreme cap.
Complete crap? Clearly it's not because Maister would be top 5 if it wasn't for Game and Watch.

:D
 

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,655
NNID
WarioLand
Think it's pretty telling that Wario has what seems to be the most notable amount of representation there.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
That EVO placement for Tweek came in clutch. I think personally that Nario would have been #3 if it weren't for EVO.
Call it a cap if you like, but 2nd at EVO is very different from 17th.
Just my hot take, Tweek seems to be doing great in Season 3 however.
I'm excited to see how new players will enter now that it's Top 100.
quiK should have been PGR.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
2 S Tiers... So we’ll have had three in a month. Crazy. Next month we’ve got Frostbite, later we have MomoCon, CEO, Final Saga, Smash’n’Splash, and Umebura Major. That’s 9 S-Tiers in one season.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
I know wifi vs local has been covered to death so I'll say this quickly, I think GaW gets more from input lag than Peach (or did he use ZSS?). It still shows us some stuff, and keeps with the narrative that he has a real GaW problem. But I would bet he would at least put up a few games in a local match. That said, sometimes those problem MUs get worse as they become more familiar with why exactly they are abusing you.



Is there anyone in the PGR that Maister lost at first but has been beating recently? The reason I wonder how GaW fares as people learn the MU comes down to light a lot, that MU seems explosive but also tough for Fox compared to other top characters. His range and recovery are a problem, and while he does blow GaW really quick that is offset by how hard it is to combo GaW (and tons of fox damage is pressure strings, not combos).

On the other hand, Light is a parry master so as he learns GaW'/ maister's timing it makes sense he will start doing better. But this is what I mean about people learning GaW, everyone has the parry available (though not the same punishes and light is probably the best by a decent margin, rapidly closing as I see more and more parries optimized).


I want someone to bring out Parry Footstool Canceling in a game. That ish looks pretty good, and it seems like something you could do semi-consistently in a real game if people are doing attack canceling consistently.
I think he tried using :ultzss: the first couple of games, but it didn't work out very well; that said, their session ended in a 27-4, I believe. The thing is, offline looks even more tragic where Maister's currently 4-0 against Samsora, and he hasn't even taken a single game off of him with his :ultpeach:, only able to take 2 games off of him in total with :ultzss: . Theoretically, if Samsora (and ESAM for that matter) decide to train up their ZSS's, then they honestly shouldn't have too much trouble given that ZSS is a tough match-up for both :ultgnw: and Maister himself. That said, if Samsora chooses to stick it out with Peach, that'll be a tough hurdle he needs to go over, though I have a feeling he'll get there someday.


Outside of Light, Kameme managed to get the runback as well in close game 5 set at Let's Make Big Moves, though he opted to use :ultwario: instead of :ultmegaman:. Gluttony also won against Maister at PSG Classic 2019 after losing to him at Smash Factor 8, though Maister managed to reset the bracket against him. Cosmos did lose to Maister again at a local (The Cholulean Prime), but the games were far closer than their encounter at Nightmare at Smashville, with Cosmos even resetting the bracket against him. ESAM lost to him once more at the pre-Glitch 8 event, and T pretty much got mauled both times he fought Maister (both at the PSG Classic and Kongo Saga). Funny enough, I think the most Maister's ever gone back and forth with is yeti (Area 51 almost counts?), and they have a LOT of sets together. Off the top of my head:

Retro Arena 64 - Yeti :ultmegaman: won twice against Maister :ultgnw:, both in Winner's and Grand Finals.
Combo Breaker - Maister :ultgnw: won twice against Yeti :ultmegaman:, both in Winner's and Grand Finals, while Yeti reset the Grand Finals bracket.
Ragnarok - Maister :ultgnw: won against Yeti :ultmegaman: in Winner's Finals.
Super Smash Con - Maister :ultgnw: won against Yeti :ultmegaman: in Top 24 Loser's.
Port Priority 5 - Yeti :ultmegaman: won against Maister :ultgnw: in Winner's Semi-Finals.

They have a looooonnnggggg history, and they make for some of the most entertaining sets around because of it.


It'll be interesting to see if parrying does become a bigger thing in the future. Funny enough, :ultgnw: profits quite a bit from parrying as it actually gives him some decent kill options out of shield in the form of FTilt and DTilt (USmash won't be hitting anything out of shield, and Fire sure won't be killing anyone at a reasonable percent).
 
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Blue Banana

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C. They do an :ultolimar: where they nerf a few of their best tools but go further and make something about them (intentionally?) buggy to balance it out as well.
I feel like the shield poking issue is unintentional, but given how very little attention Olimar has been given in the past few patches (they only addressed one issue in 4.0.0 and that was to revert an unintentional change in 3.1.0 with Forward Smash) I don't know if they will ever fix it. It's frustrating because this is on top of Olimar already having a slew of bugs with his kit, mainly around specific Pikmin interactions.
 

Lacrimosa

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Think it's pretty telling that Wario has what seems to be the most notable amount of representation there.
Waft just steals stocks for free.
Easily the most OP move in the game since it also has reliable confirms (uTilt) into it and you almost always get it once per match.
Even half-charged waft kills very early.
 
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PURGE THEM LIKE THE

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I think he will start to use less Usmash spam in clutch situations, but on the same token those high pressure situations is where it can give you the most, and some characters can barely contest it meaningfully anyways. I mean everyone can get a dash attack or something but honestly its really scary in that moment because if something goes wrong you are exploding off the top and that doesn't really cover your risk. He also mixes up the release timing and he is back in neutral preeetty quick after the actual release.
People need to stop trying to contest it at all. If he wants to mash up smash, let him mash up smash. Jump over it and go about your business if you're in the corner. The move hits exactly what it looks like it hits. Shoot a projectile. Pull a turnip. Pick Shulk and use down tilt. Taunt. Just stop trying to challenge the move.


Greninja can be tricky with dair and time it to autocancel right before the ground, and can also directional airdodge out of the end etc. While it doesnt' have as good a hitbox, bouncing off of shield and spiking throughout are things many dairs wish they had. (I'm glad GaW's doesn't spike throughout lol) Not sure if GaW can do the same, but it is certainly a nice mixup. In a juggle heavy game being able to return quickly to the ground is a nice trait, both for whiff punishes and for when you trade and want to race them to the ground. Its a good move, all things considered, but having one good option is much worse than having two!
Mr gw's dair spikes on the first 2 frames it's active.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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G&W’s up smash gets all the attention but what we should really be looking at is his down smash. While it does lack the body intangiblity and isn’t as safe (Why is a smash attack -6 on block?) -16 is still good for a smash attack with that kind of range and shield pushback. You frankly aren’t punishing this OOS except with a few few select amount of characters and only if your hit by the inside hitboxes.


It’s got all the power of a strong smash attack with none of the drawbacks. Move isn’t slow on startup, it’s relatively safe, it’s by no means weak with hitboxes that will either ground you allowing for a Fsmash kill at 80, send you upwards and kill at ranges up smash does or send you at a terrible angle off stage so it lacks risk to not landing the “desired” hitbox. The hitbox is quite generous in how it’s not only disjointed by a good deal but also covers all but G&W’s small head, granting it anti air capability unless you have a large disjoint or are really precise in your attack spacing. And the biggest offender is its FAF, that’s actually a frame faster than his up smash. He can spam this just as much as he can his up smash. Comparable down smashes with this FAF are ones like MK’s which is weak and unremarkable or Luigi’s which is strong but balanced by having a tame hitbox that only covers one side of him at a time. (Something not exclusive to G&W’s down smash but a general reason you use one is for quick coverage on your sides and this already blessed move can cover both sides simultaneously removing any ambiguity when covering your sides.)


This move is ridiculous, I don’t know why it doesn’t get mentioned as much when G&W comes up. Unless I’m just overlooking something or have wrong information I don’t see how this move isn’t as infamous as his up smash by now.
1EFB6600-6C57-4521-B6CA-D50F7C7DBCAA.jpeg
1EFB6600-6C57-4521-B6CA-D50F7C7DBCAA.jpeg
 
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SwagGuy99

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2 S Tiers... So we’ll have had three in a month. Crazy. Next month we’ve got Smash’n’Splash. That’s 9 S-Tiers in one season.
We don't even know if Smash 'n' Splash is happening after the controversy last year due to how poor it was being run. However, Riptide was just announced and it kind of looks like it is replacing it.
Waft just steals stocks for free.
Easily the most OP move\
Monado Arts would like a word with you.

Jump Art gives you good recovery and allows you to chase the opponent pretty much anywhere you want.
Speed Art allows for easier combos and allows Shulk to rushdown the opponent better.
Buster Art allows for easier combos and shield breaks and increases the damage of those combos.
Smash Art allows for ridiculously early kills and means you are harder to combo.
Shield Art is one of the best moves in the game in disadvantage. Increases shield durability, reduces the damage and knockback taken, and switching to it means that you can escape many combos much more easily than almost any other character.

Do these arts have weaknesses? Yeah but you can almost always switch to another art to avoid a scenario where your weaknesses would be taken advantage of. You can even switch in hitstun for some reason.

Not to mention all of the fancy tech this move has that can decrease landing lag among other things.

It's pretty much the only contender for best move in the game in my eyes.

Edit: About Corrin... on the 2020 OrionStats Corrin has 7.5 points. Also, ROB is sitting at 1st place currently... interesting.
 
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Lacrimosa

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This affects :ultsnake:, so I'll be posting it here:

It seems like Ally is coming back:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

If it's not the right topic, then I'm sorry. Ally is still a very controversal personality.
 

SwagGuy99

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This affects :ultsnake:, so I'll be posting it here:

It seems like Ally is coming back:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

If it's not the right topic, then I'm sorry. Ally is still a very controversal personality.
Yeah, I've seen people arguing online. A lot of seems to pertain to where it is or isn't legal, to date a 16 year old but I'm not too invested in this so whatever.

I certainly hope I'm not too late to talk about how the idea that Maister - at #6 in the world - is being held back by Game & Watch is extreme cap.
This is an interesting topic as some probably would argue that Maister would do better if he played a better character and while I could see a good argument being made for that, when it comes down to matchup spreads, matchup familiarity, and the amount of good tools this character has in his kit, I can't say I agree.

If he is being held back by playing :ultgnw:, its at worst a temporary thing. If he continues to improve and optimize his character, I can only see him moving up in the rankings, not down.
 
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NairWizard

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I'm going to politely request that no one here discuss the legality or morality of Ally's return in this topic, nor the implications on Snake's metagame. It's not cool, I don't want to hear about it, and this isn't the topic for it. Thinkaman Thinkaman mod enforcement pls
 

Y2Kay

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Thinkaman was very strict about not discussing it the first time the topic came up, can't imagine him changing his stance now.

:150:
 

Rizen

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Can someone link me to Orion stats season 3? Thanks.
This is an interesting topic as some probably would argue that Maister would do better if he played a better character and while I could see a good argument being made for that, when it comes down to matchup spreads, matchup familiarity, and the amount of good tools this character has in his kit, I can't say I agree.

If he is being held back by playing :ultgnw:, its at worst a temporary thing. If he continues to improve and optimize his character, I can only see him moving up in the rankings, not down.
If someone asked me who they would do better maining :ultpalutena: who got 3rd season 2 on Orion stats or :ultgnw: who got 27th I'd say Palutena. At first Maester was getting away with a ton of jank but people learned the MU and stopped jumping into Usmash. Light for example recently beat Maester and I expect Samsora to overcome him just like he did Leo. That's not to say Maester won't adapt too but he can't get away with MU unfamiliarity as much. LeoN's Bowser is a good example of players being unfamilure with a really good player of an uncommon character and losing at first but figuring it out with time.

PS thanking you for actually making a point instead of saying something like "this argument's crap".
 
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KirbySquad101

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Can someone link me to Orion stats season 3? Thanks.

If someone asked me who they would do better maining :ultpalutena: who got 3rd season 2 on Orion stats or :ultgnw: who got 27th I'd say Palutena. At first Maester was getting away with a ton of jank but people learned the MU and stopped jumping into Usmash. Light for example recently beat Maester and I expect Samsora to overcome him just like he did Leo. That's not to say Maester won't adapt too but he can't get away with MU unfamiliarity as much. LeoN's Bowser is a good example of players being unfamilure with a really good player of an uncommon character and losing at first but figuring it out with time.

PS thanking you for actually making a point instead of saying something dumb like "this argument's crap".
Here's the link to Season 3. Funny enough, it just got updated today: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

Yeeeeaaahhhh, :ultrob:'s #1 now. lol
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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ROB will probably stay Number 1 for a while, if Zackray wins EVO Japan (That is unless he's going Solo Joker, any confirmation on what characters he's used yet?)
 

Thinkaman

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I'm at Genesis. Y'all don't be saying bad things I'll have to clean up monday.
 
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