Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[blackghost]

rob is not a top tier he needs far too much bracket luck to be that.
and yes corrin is still bad.
pikachu isnt carried by ESAM per se but it is fascinating that other Pikachus cannot come close to ESAM effectiveness with the character.

 

[TennisBall]

rob is not a top tier he needs far too much bracket luck to be that.
and yes corrin is still bad.
pikachu isnt carried by ESAM per se but it is fascinating that other Pikachus cannot come close to ESAM effectiveness with the character.

The thing about ESAM and Pikachu is that, ESAM is just really good. Being up against MkLeo and Tweek is not an easy feat. Espcially with that third place at Glitch 8, I only see ESAM rising from here once he stops making silly mistakes so often. (MuteAce lol) Another thing is that ESAM has been maining Pikachu since Brawl, so it's also no suprise that he knows the character better than anyone.

 

[blackghost]

The thing about ESAM and Pikachu is that, ESAM is just really good. Being up against MkLeo and Tweek is not an easy feat. Espcially with that third place at Glitch 8, I only see ESAM rising from here once he stops making silly mistakes so often. (MuteAce lol) Another thing is that ESAM has been maining Pikachu since Brawl, so it's also no suprise that he knows the character better than anyone.

there are players that click with a character so much that its just different. esam with pikachu. salem with hero. lima with bayo. leo with joker. samsora with peach while most of the players i listed use great characters we see them get so much out of their characters that others never come close to

 

[SwagGuy99]

rob is not a top tier he needs far too much bracket luck to be that.
and yes corrin is still bad.
pikachu isnt carried by ESAM per se but it is fascinating that other Pikachus cannot come close to ESAM effectiveness with the character.

I agree with everything here and I'll elaborate on why:

• 's biggest weakness being his disadvantage (mediocre recovery, easy to combo, easy to juggle, lack of landing options) means that in practice he can oftentimes find himself struggling against characters who on paper, he might do well against. and even can all heavily capitalize on 's poor disadvantage. All of these characters are either adept at edgeguarding, juggling, and/or comboing him and he can oftentimes lose a stock because his opponent wins only one or two neutral interactions. His disadvantage is might be the worst of the top/high tiers (lighter and slower than and has a harder time landing, larger and easier to combo than , easier to juggle, slower, and has a harder time landing than ) and if he wasn't so good in almost every other area of his kit, he would probably still be a low mid tier or low tier like or . That being said, I do think he will start to drop off as people learn the matchup more and characters like and continue to rise and be optimized, but I don't think he will ever be as low on a tier list as .
• is a bad character, but it's been pretty hard to nail down how bad she actually is, since she has some combo potential, decent disjoints, and really good juggling. That being said, being one of the slowest characters in the game with mediocre frame data doesn't help her in a game where most good characters tend to either have good mobility or have fast frame data. This can lead to taking a lot of damage over losing one neutral interaction and it can also lead to situations where she can't really approach either. That being said, she does have some OK matchups vs some meta-relevant characters ( are all probably evenish or slightly losing for , but are all winnable) even if she does lose pretty badly to some other ones ().
• (to me) seems like the true contender for best in then game right now. I'm not going to go over his strengths (because everyone already knows what they are and because there are so many), but suffice to say, he has literally everything a character in Ultimate's engine could want except a sword (but he really isn't lacking in the range department though). His only true weakness is that he's kind of light and will die early sometimes. It's still kind of a mystery as to why nobody uses him, but I'm guessing it has something to do with most of the other top tiers being easier to use.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Now hold on, I thought a major point of contention in this thread in determining a characters top tier status was if multiple people could achieve good results with the character as it would speak to the quality of the character and not just one person who’s super good carrying a lesser character.

This was the major point of contention and still is (not to the same degree) over Joker being number one as only Leo has seen the highs with Joker that other players haven’t

This is the major point of contention of Pika’s top tier status as again only ESAM is getting the bulk of Pika’s results

This is the major point of contention in Shulk’s top tier status as currently no one is producing top tier results but Nicko and Kome are steadily getting there as time goes on.

So why doesn’t this apply to ROB? Every big tournament I look at I see a different ROB sometimes multiple Top 32s.

Glitch had Dill at 7th, Raffi at 9th, Wadi at 17th. Don’t know how much ROB was used but I see him in the results for Zackray’s 1st at EGS Cup. Let’s make Big Moves, Raffi and Wadi at 17th, Epic Gabriel at 25th (This player won Gatorlan that recently happened a B tier 400+ entrants). Kongo Saga Wadi at 9th. Go back a few months Zackray 1st at Big House (I know it wasn’t solo Rob), Wadi 9th. Smash Con, Raffi 9th, Wadi 17th. This isn’t the largest sample size and I generally don’t like to pick results from more than 6 months ago as they get stale overtime as people get better at and understand the game more and I’m sure you can find counter arguments but this is just what I’ve been noticing lately.

This is no disrespect to any of these players but out of this batch only Zackray is able to win A/S tiers yet as of the past few months you see multiple very impressive finishes by different ROB player at the largest events, some of these players aren’t even PGR.

ROB isn’t the most attractive character but I think it’s been proven by now this character can absolutely win at the largest events. Wanting to have a secondary isn’t an indicator of a non top tier in this game nor any game, the amount of top players who use only one character is minuscule and if his losing MUs were infact that troubling he wouldn’t have as much consistent success. I’m not the first person to jump on any characters bandwagon but I don’t think it can be denyed much longer that ROB isn’t top ten, at worst top fifteen.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

R.O.B's bad disadvantage state is somewhat kept in balance by how shockingly scary and theatening he is in advantage. Especially if you find yourself offstage vs him. Getting hit with Arm-Rotor off the ledge as soon as 60% is basically death, and he has plenty of very strong edgeguarding tools that really punish the more linear or interecptable recoveries in the game. Down-B is considered a super strong spike despite its long start-up;. Also partly on why R.O.B has been getting better results is that his mains have been getting better utilizing all of his options, including some pretty nasty setups and combos off Gyro

That is why R.O.B has a fairly good MU vs Fox right now despite how badly he would seem to lose on paper. Speaking of Fox they do have some similarities. Fox also has a somewhat poor disadvantage state and will sometimes just die pretty early off a couple exchanges due to his light weight and fairly exploitable recovery. But on the other side Fox is still of the most deadly characters in the game one he gets his momentum and can keep it.

 

[KakuCP9]

Who needs a disadvantage state when you have the power of beyblade and the cheater d-tilt?

R.O.B is like Game and Watch where he has certain holes in his game, but has enough prowess in other areas and enough return on his neutral wins to brute force his way through (some) of his problems letting him compete with the top tier and even letting him have a claim to it. It's just that Game and Watch's issue is characters not interacting with him and forcing him to take the (risky) initiative but being able to squirm out of trouble when they pressure him, the reverse applies to R.O.B since he is cool with not being bothered since he can charge his gyro for his sick gyro tech, let his laser charge and he can out- footsise a large chunk of cast if need be with cheater tilt while not being able to deal with pressure that well. (Though his recovery is low-key cheat tho.)

 

[FruitLoop]

ROB isn’t the most attractive character

Wait what? WHAT? WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY? R.O.B is one of the most attractive beings in all of smash. R.O.B has one of the thiccest lower bodies in all of smash and if you didn't know, R.O.B has hella beautiful eyes... lenses. R.O.B is attractive in every sense in the word and I lowkey feel like reporting you for FAKE NEWS.

Anyways back to R.O.B's viability. R.O.B imo probably isn't top 15, but this isn't really in the fault of R.O.B but rather the fact that there's around 20 characters in the top 15 range anyways so really I'd just argue top of high tier or just typical high tier so honestly take that as you will. However I do NOT think R.O.B will drop on the tier list anytime soon. The thing about optimal R.O.B is that despite his horrendous disadvantage state, lame play has been further and further optimized where the opponent can be forced to approach R.O.B since he gets access to both Gyros for controlling the pace of neutral while still being able to be setup in a method where the opponent is approached to jump. If the opponent Jumps then R.O.B gets a contender for one of the best Air to Airs in the game in the form of his Neutral-Air. This + the fact that due to how lasers work R.O.B doesn't actually need to approach constantly and he doesn't need to make huge commitments that can have him end up losing the stock. With people learning how to exploit Ultimate's engine further and with R.O.B's access to the Robble and with his offstage Side-B confirms getting more lenient and consistent alongside the general fact that players are starting to get smarter with how they land and play at disadvantage, I generally think that R.O.B could very much benefit from further progression of the meta. However this is a case of just waiting and seeing since R.O.B always had a pattern of dropping after being called a top/high tier in ALL smash games including even Project M.[/QUOTE]

 

[Thinkaman]

rob is not a top tier he needs far too much bracket luck to be that.

 

[blackghost]

ROB is to me the scrub killer of ultimate. his gameplan is to build a wall and slowly chip away and look for openings for side b cheese if possible.
ROB is a good character but elite status of top tier isnt something he has. i see him for of a knowledge check. do you know how to play anti grab? do you have a good ability to push disadvantage? do you understand how to deal with gyro?

characters like Bayo, ROB, and belmonts among others have this effect on poeple: fear. when people dont know what is going on with the character they easily fall into their gameplans.

I say ROB needs bracket luck because being weak to fox, palutena, luigi, joker, lucina, wolf, and peach is a lot of common bad MU. ROBs total results are going to be solid he has aa good gameplan and gyro messes people and he doesnt have killing issues. up but that disadvantage and MU chart are not top tier material. high tier maybe.

 

[$.A.F.]

ROB is to me the scrub killer of ultimate. his gameplan is to build a wall and slowly chip away and look for openings for side b cheese if possible.
ROB is a good character but elite status of top tier isnt something he has. i see him for of a knowledge check. do you know how to play anti grab? do you have a good ability to push disadvantage? do you understand how to deal with gyro?

characters like Bayo, ROB, and belmonts among others have this effect on poeple: fear. when people dont know what is going on with the character they easily fall into their gameplans.

I say ROB needs bracket luck because being weak to fox, palutena, luigi, joker, lucina, wolf, and peach is a lot of common bad MU. ROBs total results are going to be solid he has aa good gameplan and gyro messes people and he doesnt have killing issues. up but that disadvantage and MU chart are not top tier material. high tier maybe.

“High Tier Maybe”


those are in chronological season order btw. Funny how that “maybe high tier” has at worst got top 15 results. Funny how that “noob killer” keeps beating top players, many of whom play those characters he apparently struggles with. Strange how the character who only wins due to matchup inexperience has literally shot up on the results scale the MORE time goes on. Knowing all this which seems more plausible, that people are actively learning LESS about the matchup as time goes on and that every top ROB made some Voodoo deal with the devil to seed them not to fight top tiers, or that ROB’s results that have been improving for months might just represent his actual placement.

 

[PK Gaming]

Mario is absolutely top tier right now

Wizzy showcased the character has the sauce (ie:bull**** factor) to be a top contender

Doesn't look like anyone but him can really tap into it right now. Especially when it comes to performing those nasty split second reverse Up Smash punishes

 

[Impax]

Mario is absolutely top tier right now

Wizzy showcased the character has the sauce (ie:bull**** factor) to be a top contender

Doesn't look like anyone but him can really tap into it right now. Especially when it comes to performing those nasty split second reverse Up Smash punishes

Prodigy is pretty good too and probably has the potential to be a top 20 PGR player imho.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Mario and R.O.B right now are around the top of high-tier and can very well creep into top-tier. Especially if the Byleth 7.0.0 patch does end up nerfing some of the characters considered the very best in the game and are the highly requested by most of the community to be toned down. i.e and those two get left alone. Same with Chroy

 

[|RK|]

Remember that top tier =! top ten

That said, we don't really do a great job of explaining tier delineations anyways.

ROB could be top tier under one definition and high tier under another. That said, for my definition (class of characters capable of regularly hitting top 8/9 at a major), ROB fits.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Mario and R.O.B right now are around the top of high-tier and can very well creep into top-tier. Especially if the Byleth 7.0.0 patch does end up nerfing some of the characters considered the very best in the game and are the highly requested by most of the community to be toned down. i.e and those two get left alone. Same with Chroy

While I would like to see some nerfs handed out to a few characters (I just posted about that the other day) I do worry about the possible repercussions of it.

A. The team does reasonable nerfs to the characters who need it () and we have nothing to worry about.
B. They do what they did with and nerf characters to the point where playing them to their fullest potential is extremely difficult due to already existing issues being made much worse.

C. They do an where they nerf a few of their best tools but go further and make something about them (intentionally?) buggy to balance it out as well.

D. They nerf those characters but also nerf characters who don't need them as well (like ).

I personally prefer just buffing the lower tiers to be on par with the better characters and only handing out nerfs when needed, but with that, I feel like characters can oftentimes be ignored when doing this ( and ) so that might not be the best method of fixing characters either.

Buffing and nerfing characters in a game meant for both casual and competitive play makes everything 10x more difficult as well.

 

[Avokha]

Gonna throw out some food for thought, given the debate over how we determine top tiers:

When discussing what makes a character be seen as top tier (or just good in general) or not, there seems to be two schools of thought that most people side with;

1. Potential, i.e. the belief that when a player succeeds with a character, it is displaying the capacity of said characters strengths and abilities to survive and thrive in the metagame. So something along the lines of "if X character is able to get top 8 at Y supermajor (just as an example), even one time, that result can be reproduced, thanks to the characters inherent strengths."
2. Relevance, i.e. the belief that a character can only be truly considered a threat when said character succeeds multiple times, in multiple peoples hands. If a character only gets one notable placement and fails to reproduce it, or continuously succeeds but only in the hands of a select few, that character cannot be considered highly because any threat the character may pose does not originate from the character itself, but instead its player."

So, Potential vs. Relevance. When examining these 2 mindsets, you may find that the core difference in these ideologies is value placed in the strength of characters vs. the strength of players, as well as a sort optimistic vs. pessimistic outlook on character performance as a whole.

The big question here is, which is it? When a character succeeds, is it because of the character, who gives the player the tools they need to win? Or is it the exact opposite, the player who provides the skillset to enable the character's success? Unfortunately, I anticipate that this is something that, even after a lot of heated debate, cannot be easily answered.

 

[PK Bash]

If Pikachu had safe kill power or safe setups/setplay into his kill power, a lot more people would play him. See: Pichu (esp. pre-patch)

People are hesitant to call ROB a top-cut character just because we've seen the same song and dance in every game and in every game ROB ends up in the same boat as Ness or Yoshi. That said, if ROB was going to fall off in this game, he probably would have done it by now - easiest comparison is Ivysaur, who plays similar to ROB but lacks, amongst other things, the stage presence and safe-but-devastating ledgetraps and is severely hampered by the power of fastfall nairdodge and top recoveries.
ROB fell off in other games for being too honest (as well as a couple of choice awful MUs) but when you look at his ability to play to - and also to punish - top Ult strategies such as the shieldplay in this game, mixups offstage and exploiting safe recovery, landing with FF neutral airdodge, threatening with empty hops, and whiff punishing, and apply this to the most relevant matchups, it's pretty self-evident that, for once, this character has some staying power.

Edit @ below: nah I stand by the statement. what Pikachu can't do that Pichu did/does is kill you off a Bair oos at 90 or an ftilt at ledge at 110. The closest Pikachu does is Dtilt > hope for a jablock, grab > Thunder which is pretty good tbf if people can be bothered to learn it, or, what I think you refer to, Fsmash at the ledge, which yes, it lingers, but it's an Fsmash that you have to throw out raw. You don't have an aerial or a tilt that can do that job at a typical percent, and when you're committing so hard to a kill at ledge, yes that's a bit of a shortcoming.
He's not *that* niche and he's not even bad at killing really. He's just more effort at high %s than most people can be bothered to put in because there's so many easier win buttons.

 

[Sean²]

If Pikachu had safe kill power or safe setups/setplay into his kill power, a lot more people would play him.

Wait, what?

I don't think this is the case at all. I think it's more that he has a more niche playstyle that relies on more character-specific stuff over fundamentals (kind of like Peach), so he's less attractive to players who haven't been/don't want to be character specialists. Even if he did lack raw, safe kill power (which he doesn't, let's be real - almost everything is a multihit or has a lasting hitbox that will still kill), he'd make up for it with one the best edgeguarding toolkits in the game.

 

[Tri Knight]

Wait, what?

I don't think this is the case at all. I think it's more that he has a more niche playstyle that relies on more character-specific stuff over fundamentals (kind of like Peach), so he's less attractive to players who haven't been/don't want to be character specialists. Even if he did lack raw, safe kill power (which he doesn't, let's be real - almost everything is a multihit or has a lasting hitbox that will still kill), he'd make up for it with one the best edgeguarding toolkits in the game.

I forgot who it was against, but I watched ESAM 0-death someone without even getting back on stage. The way he did it with pikachu was mesmerizing.

Pikachu's edgeguarding is insane in the right hands. He can jump out deep for a nice early kill and recover easy like nothing happened. Those lasting hitboxes he has are brutal.

 

[KirbySquad101]

The final week of the #PGRU reveal begins with the Top 20.

In partnership with @redbullgaming, we are proud to present to you the 20-11.

Read & Watch: https://t.co/5lHGyQMYOe

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) January 21, 2020

Top 20-11 PGRU:

11. Kameme | +8
12. Tea |+3
13. Shuton |-8
14. ESAM +2
15. T +32
16. KEN New
17. Raito | +3
18. Kuro New
19. ProtoBanham |+4
20. WaDi |+4

All Japan barring ESAM and WaDi lol In all seriousness, I'm glad Japan's getting more recognition, they have so many crazy players worthy of the PGRU.

Spoiler: PGRU 21-A51

21st: Lea() +9
22nd: Dark Wizzy +9
23rd: Cosmos -12
24th: Abadango() +16
25th: Kome New
26th: Choco New
27th: Nietono() +18
28th: LeoN() +7
29th: Gackt New
30th: Salem() -8
31st: Raffi-X New
32nd: Elegant New
33rd: Pandarian New
34th: Etsuji() New
35th: Umeki +7
36th: Nicko New
37th: Ned() New
38th: VoiD() -29
39th: Lui$() New
40th: ScAtt +1
41st: HIKARU() New
42nd: Goblin() -3
43rd: BestNess() New
44th: Mr R() -8
45th: RFang() New
46th: Kola() New
47th: Riddles() New
48th: Kirihara New
49th: Big D() New
50th: Ron() New
A51: yeti -17
A51: Wrath() New
A51: Myran -38
A51: Leffen New
A51: Eim New

That pretty much just leaves us with:

Spoiler: Top 10 PGRU

MKLeo |
Tweek |
Gluttony
Dabuz |
Nairo
Maister
Zackray |
Light
Marss
Samsora

 

[Lacrimosa]

That means Gluto is Top 10.
Kinda interesting how far it'll take him. He won or got 2nd (after Leo) at every relevant European tournament but also didn't attend some big tournament in the states.

Good to see that they value Japanese tournament adequately now.
Now it'd be great if the same can be done for Europe.

 

[TennisBall]

The final week of the #PGRU reveal begins with the Top 20.

In partnership with @redbullgaming, we are proud to present to you the 20-11.

Read & Watch: https://t.co/5lHGyQMYOe

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) January 21, 2020

Top 20-11 PGRU:

11. Kameme | +8
12. Tea |+3
13. Shuton |-8
14. ESAM +2
15. T +32
16. KEN New
17. Raito | +3
18. Kuro New
19. ProtoBanham |+4
20. WaDi |+2

All Japan barring ESAM and WaDi lol In all seriousness, I'm glad Japan's getting more recognition, they have so many crazy players worthy of the PGRU.

Spoiler: PGRU 21-A51

21st: Lea() +9
22nd: Dark Wizzy +9
23rd: Cosmos -12
24th: Abadango() +16
25th: Kome New
26th: Choco New
27th: Nietono() +18
28th: LeoN() +7
29th: Gackt New
30th: Salem() -8
31st: Raffi-X New
32nd: Elegant New
33rd: Pandarian New
34th: Etsuji() New
35th: Umeki +7
36th: Nicko New
37th: Ned() New
38th: VoiD() -29
39th: Lui$() New
40th: ScAtt +1
41st: HIKARU() New
42nd: Goblin() -3
43rd: BestNess() New
44th: Mr R() -8
45th: RFang() New
46th: Kola() New
47th: Riddles() New
48th: Kirihara New
49th: Big D() New
50th: Ron() New
A51: yeti -17
A51: Wrath() New
A51: Myran -38
A51: Leffen New
A51: Eim New

That pretty much just leaves us with:

Spoiler: Top 10 PGRU

MKLeo |
Tweek |
Gluttony
Dabuz |
Nairo
Maister
Zackray |
Light
Marss
Samsora

Let's go KEN.

 

[Tri Knight]

Let's go KEN.

Nah let's go T!!!!

 

[Nathan Richardson]

When it comes to buffs I honestly want to see some buffs to pokemon trainer's pokemon. A slight buff to squirtle's kill power and ivysaur's overall mobility with buffs to zard's frame data. Only puppeh can crack top 10 with him and that's because it's mentally taxing to juggle all 3 of them. I bet most players are only good at 1 or 2 of the pokemon in PT's lineup while being mediocre or even downright terrible with 1 or 2.

 

[TennisBall]

Nah let's go T!!!!

Double nah let's go both.

I'm still a little salty about quiK not being PGR but alas, we'll just have to wait.
So let's go over some of Season 3 so far, pardon me if I miss some things.
Tweek seems to be back on track.
Nario won an S Tier and is climbing up further.
ESAM seems to be climbing up the skill ceiling more and more as time goes on.
Mario got 2nd at an A Tier.
R.O.B continues to blow people's minds.
PT seems to be dropping off just a little.
People are waiting for Joker to get nerfed in 7.0.0.
Fatality seems to be out of his rough spot and is doing well.
Japan EVO is gonna be wild.
But some things never change:like how Smashboards will never argee on . Makes sense.
Now I really don't want to spend another five hours talking about Pikachu, so I wanna wonder what we think of , character seems to have fallen off a bit and I wonder how this has changed peoples opinions.

When it comes to buffs I honestly want to see some buffs to pokemon trainer's pokemon. A slight buff to squirtle's kill power and ivysaur's overall mobility with buffs to zard's frame data. Only puppeh can crack top 10 with him and that's because it's mentally taxing to juggle all 3 of them. I bet most players are only good at 1 or 2 of the pokemon in PT's lineup while being mediocre or even downright terrible with 1 or 2.

Preach.
It's not that Puppeh is the only one who can get major results it's that he's the only one who is. We still have very good PTs with Ned,HIKARU, Pandarain, etc, but Tweek seems to be leaning towards Wario again after his performence at Kongo Saga, and I don't even know what Wishes is doing anymore.

 

[Rizen]

As long as we're giving buffs to characters who don't need them how about throwing some love 's way? Increase KBG on Uair, Fair, Dair and Usmash. I'm tired of characters surviving this past 140-160%.

 

[Thinkaman]

This topic is not the place to discuss hypothetical buffs to bottom tier characters.

No topic is the place to discuss hypothetical buffs to Pokemon Trainer.

 

[BitBitio]

Double nah let's go both.

I'm still a little salty about quiK not being PGR but alas, we'll just have to wait.
So let's go over some of Season 3 so far, pardon me if I miss some things.
Tweek seems to be back on track.
Nario won an S Tier and is climbing up further.
ESAM seems to be climbing up the skill ceiling more and more as time goes on.
Mario got 2nd at an A Tier.
R.O.B continues to blow people's minds.
PT seems to be dropping off just a little.
People are waiting for Joker to get nerfed in 7.0.0.
Fatality seems to be out of his rough spot and is doing well.
Japan EVO is gonna be wild.
But some things never change:like how Smashboards will never argee on . Makes sense.
Now I really don't want to spend another five hours talking about Pikachu, so I wanna wonder what we think of , character seems to have fallen off a bit and I wonder how this has changed peoples opinions.

Preach.
It's not that Puppeh is the only one who can get major results it's that he's the only one who is. We still have very good PTs with Ned,HIKARU, Pandarain, etc, but Tweek seems to be leaning towards Wario again after his performence at Kongo Saga, and I don't even know what Wishes is doing anymore.

GoT 25Th aT A c-TiER aNd a B-tiEr aNd 129tH aT aN A-tIeR gG leT'S gO TbH hE sTiLl nEedS mOrE bUfFs

(Sorry)

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Paseriman will be attending Frostbite. He's Japan's best Fox.

 

[Cracke]

Paseriman will be attending Frostbite. He's Japan's best Fox.

I haven't checked out the seating of it. Think there'll be a ditto versus Light?

 

[SwagGuy99]

I haven't checked out the seating of it. Think there'll be a ditto versus Light?

It would be interesting to see how their playstyles differ from each other.

 

[TennisBall]

GoT 25Th aT A c-TiER aNd a B-tiEr aNd 129tH aT aN A-tIeR gG leT'S gO TbH hE sTiLl nEedS mOrE bUfFs

(Sorry)

Ah, I forgot, apologies.
Me personally, I still think Wolf is a top tier, maybe lower, but he's still very very good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This topic is not the place to discuss hypothetical buffs to bottom tier characters.

No topic is the place to discuss hypothetical buffs to Pokemon Trainer.

Thank you.

Holy crap at people thinking top tiers need buffs.

 

[meleebrawler]

But guuuys, the Pokemon by themselves are, like, mid tier at best by themselves! I don't care if it's balancing factor to having three in one, I want each or at least my favourite to be viable on it's own! /s

 

[Nathan Richardson]

But guuuys, the Pokemon by themselves are, like, mid tier at best by themselves! I don't care if it's balancing factor to having three in one, I want each or at least my favourite to be viable on it's own! /s

Thank you! Back in Smash 4 when I was maining zard all I could think of was how much it would suck if I had to juggle 3 pokemon again. Lo and behold they did it, i can't exactly work my favorites properly when each individual pokemon had such glaring weaknesses that the only thing they have going for them is that there's 3 characters in one. To top that off almost noone has to worry about 3 characters with different specialties, frame data, weight, and overall mobility. If they were similar then it would be fine but they're not, and tbh I don't know how PT is top tier when everything about their character suggests that they're high tier at best. His best comboer has to be out first and his kill power is abyssmal plus it's so light (tied for G&W for the second lightest in the game, and that's according to the game tips) that it can't or won't last. Your zoner's mobility is so insanely poor that most competitors will either outbutton or simply outrun it, it has excellent kill power but no way to set it up, to get the kill it needs a read. The tank seems to be the worst of the bunch, easy to combo, easy to cross-up, horrific aerial mobility, a special that leaves it wide open from all angles and only one move that can provide proper shield pressure, it's poor aerial mobility means it can find itself in no win situations if the opponent knocks it far enough back and it's too low to snap to the ledge.
Yes you get three different characters you can switch on the fly but once an opponent is used to that PT is laughably easy to abuse.

 

[Idon]

Thank you! Back in Smash 4 when I was maining zard all I could think of was how much it would suck if I had to juggle 3 pokemon again. Lo and behold they did it, i can't exactly work my favorites properly when each individual pokemon had such glaring weaknesses that the only thing they have going for them is that there's 3 characters in one. To top that off almost noone has to worry about 3 characters with different specialties, frame data, weight, and overall mobility. If they were similar then it would be fine but they're not, and tbh I don't know how PT is top tier when everything about their character suggests that they're high tier at best. His best comboer has to be out first and his kill power is abyssmal plus it's so light (tied for G&W for the second lightest in the game, and that's according to the game tips) that it can't or won't last. Your zoner's mobility is so insanely poor that most competitors will either outbutton or simply outrun it, it has excellent kill power but no way to set it up, to get the kill it needs a read. The tank seems to be the worst of the bunch, easy to combo, easy to cross-up, horrific aerial mobility, a special that leaves it wide open from all angles and only one move that can provide proper shield pressure, it's poor aerial mobility means it can find itself in no win situations if the opponent knocks it far enough back and it's too low to snap to the ledge.
Yes you get three different characters you can switch on the fly but once an opponent is used to that PT is laughably easy to abuse.

H-hey, you know he was being sarcastic and doesn't actually want what he was saying right?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

H-hey, you know he was being sarcastic and doesn't actually want what he was saying right?

No, I can't really tell that in text. To me he was being completely serious anyways this will be marked as spam. We can't talk hypothetical buffs or stuff like that so what else do we talk about?

 

[Idon]

No, I can't really tell that in text. To me he was being completely serious anyways this will be marked as spam. We can't talk hypothetical buffs or stuff like that so what else do we talk about?

That's why the /s is there, a blatant way to state "/sarcasm."

Now as for what you can talk about, I dunno really, character strengths, weaknesses, how pro players use certain characters, how characters match up against other characters, their place in the meta, upcoming tournaments, and whatever else I forgot to mention.
Discussing the flaws of a characters I think is probably fine, but going to the extent to center the conversation around a wish-list to improve said characters is probably going to move away from the point of the thread.

Also a lot of people here don't think Pokemon Trainer needs buffs, lol.

 

[TennisBall]

Squirtle and Ivy are still really good. I think they're low high personally, Squirtle has crazy comboes, low-profiles everything and only struggles with weight and killing, which is where you can switch to Ivysaur who is has consistent kill set-ups, very nice range, has a bit more weight to him, and in case you're still struggling with killing, you can switch to Charizard, who has a billion different ways to kill your opponent, insane, ledgetrapping, and lives for an extremely long time as a super-heavy.

Now, I'm going to be completely honest, as someone who plays PT I'm not going to object to this, but objectively buffing PT is a very,very bad idea.