I agree, and I did cover it partially when I talked about how having a stronger Punish Game adds to mitigating this weakness and gave examples of instances that occurred with Melee and Brawl Zelda. I also mentioned how she has other issues in her kit such as Frame Data and how she can't truly zone as well as dedicated projectile focused characters like Mega Man for example. Not to mention I also briefly went over how more mobility would make aspects of things she already does, better, (using Phantom to corner people after it's out). But it goes both ways, without the speed to even catch people in the first place, unless they gave her a zero-to-death or something to make up for when she does close the gap, she'll still have to do this multiple times to keep up enough to combo and land kill confirms and win Neutral.
Like I said, mobility buffs alone will not make her Top Tier, but it will add to her quality of life and that's all I wanted you to understand at a base level. Just because a weakness isn't crippling in some situations doesn't mean it's not something that still exists and this is a concept that can sometimes only truly get accentuated when the mobility gap is large and unfortunately, a lot of the better characters in the game happen to be faster. Not always of course, but it is a trend you see across Smash Games, some more than others due to engine and tools at play however. All I wanted to do was outline that a lack of mobility IS something Zelda is not above having to deal with and her current tools aren't enough alone to always play around it. Better mobility wouldn't fix everything but it would help and also take a little less weight off of how much Phantom alone has to carry the aspect of patching her issues; something it doesn't have the Frame Data to do all at once.
Yes, you and others have gone over 90% of the things I mentioned in my lengthy posts. Yes, we all know how mobility works and where it could apply as a general concept. Yes, we all seem to mostly be on the same page of the issues Zelda has. Which is why I'm confused at to why we are having trouble taking the final step in concluding that better mobility won't change the fact Zelda cannot
fundamentally contest or encroach on the opponent's space and that mobility being equal, the superior spacing options of her opponent will always win.
This all true. Olimar needs more mobility to keep away from opponents and use Pikmin effectively, because he was
designed to do so. His kit revolving around Pikmin makes it essential that he can safely space them and rack damage and kill that way. Plenty of other people have also used other characters as examples of how mobility/lack of can help or hurt. The thing is, I'm talking about specific characters not those. It's fine for Olimar, because it's vital for how he wants to play.
I feel like there's a bit of a misconception about zoning in this discussion. Most people seem to think it's about playing keep away and walling your opponent, but while the concept of zoning is a bit vague, it's a little more broad than this. Zelda doesn't want to wall opponents, she wants to
draw them in. Zoning doesn't just mean you manipulate your opponent away from you, it means putting them in specific places. Again, stop and think about Zelda's kit:
Up-Tilt is very short, but covers everything front to back, D-Tilt is fast and can potentially combo, but also has very short range, F-Tilt is slow with lots of endlag for a Tilt, but can be angled and has decent range. Fsmash is a fast and large multi-hit but is telegraphed a bit, Up-Smash is short, long and very slow, Dsmash is very quick and sends them at an awkward angle but is very short, Jab is Jab. I've already gone into her aerials previously.
In short, her kit is designed entirely around punishing mistakes and encroachment in her space and not much else. Her only ranged options are Phantom, Din's Fire, and Farore's Wind. All generally either unsafe, inconsistent, or can't combo/kill. You need to be close to your opponent to really utilize her kit, which is why she needs to zone in a way that draws them to her. These aren't designed for neutral or chasing, you need to goad your opponent into attacking you.
Take this
match for example. Notice how anytime Mystearica tried to go on offense, it didn't end well most of the time,
even when ZSS is standing right next to Zelda? Notice how most of the wins came from when ZSS tried to attack?
Observe 0:24 to 0:28. ZSS poked Zelda's shield with an F-Tilt, then Zelda tried poking with an Up-Tilt, then ZSS tried poking with D-Tilt. It might seem even, until you realize there's a FAF of 30 on Zelda's Up-Tilt and the back swing leaves her vulnerable from the front. Had Doorstop chosen a better option, Zelda would have been punished. Instead, he ended up dashing back as Mystearica Naired, which is what led him to punish with grab.
Despite them standing next to each other, ZSS's Tilts outranged all of Zelda's safe options there. Zelda has no ability to poke and that Nair was a desperate preempt attempt. You can pretty much only hope for ZSS to jump here, so you can punish with Nair or Up-Tilt. Not because she lacks better mobility, but because Zelda has no way to deal with D-Tilt. Could Myst have dash attacked there and punished the dash back? Yes. Would it have been risky to do so? Also yes.
Now let's observe 0:58 to 1:04. Both characters are sitting in shield, waiting to see what the other does. ZSS has safer OoS options in this context, because none of Zelda's can either reach from there or are safe on shield. Thus ZSS can afford to wait and Myst had to be the one to act. Myst attempted to bait ZSS OoS with a shield dash, but Doorstop held steady. Why? Because Zelda's dash grab is frame 13, putting it close to ZSS's own standing version. He can avoid on reaction and Zelda has no alternative way to pressure shields, as I went into in a previous post.
Now they're both back in shield and right next to each other. Neither character can shield grab, but ZSS has safer OoS options and can punish Zelda's OoS whiffs harder than Zelda can punish hers. Myst attempted to preempt with Nair again, which caused Doorstop to roll back then punish Nair, because it's not safe on rising whiff, which ultimately lead to a stock. There was no dash attack option this time, because Doorstop was able to roll on reaction.
This again shows that it's not mobility that's the issue, but Zelda having objectively inferior options, due to frame data, safety, and lack of range. This is what I mean when I ask what Zelda is supposed to do when she catches her opponent. She does not have the ability to win head on or on an even playing field.
Now let's look at 1:45 to 1:46, 6:11 to 6:19, 7:23 to 7:26, 8:43 to 8:47, and 9:51 to 9:58. The first two are examples of how even seemingly small commits can be punished with Up-B. The rest are various times where Myst punished whiffs and even relatively small mistakes rather severely, doing 40+. contrast that with the few times Myst won neutral being aggressive or offensive. Drastically different, right? Zelda does not have the ability to combo off whatever you would use has spacing or chasing tools. Other characters might be able to combo off a stray Fair, but Zelda needs setup for her combos and it is orders of magnitude better for her to punish.
Does this mean she can never be aggressive or punish? No, take a look at these:
At 2:25 to 2:32 we have a quite frankly amazing combo. Zelda's Nair sends ZSS off stage, which allows time for Zelda to setup a Phantom. Either avoiding a ledge trap situation or not realizing what Myst is doing, Doorstop jumps back on stage into shield. At this spacing, Phantom will cover roll and OoS, Zelda will cover DJ, the platform, and any timed rolls with the Phantom swing. Doorstop has no choice but to hold shield. This prompts to sweet-spot Fair, while Phantom covers the endlag and keeps Doorstop trapped in shield. Myst then does Dsmash to cover any shield drop, which Doorstop parries, but is pushed back by Phantom. Doorstop then does the only he could do and attempt to Fsmash through Phantom, which Myst blocks and then does Fair OoS.
During that entire sequence, Phantom had Zelda covered, while Zelda covered the holes in Phantom's spacing. Once they trapped the opponent, their hitboxs played off each other and something beautiful happened. This is what I mean when I say Zelda and Phantom need to work in tandem, which is why Zelda is bound to Phantom. This would not be anywhere near as safe or as awesome, if it was a more mobile Zelda by herself.
9:20 to 9:30 is a similar affair. Myst uses the invincibility to setup a Phantom and Doorstop understandably goes straight to the platform. Zelda then charges up to the platform doing a preemptive Nair. ZSS already committing to a dash, makes it difficult to quickly punish. Doorstop could potentially chase, but would have to deal with Phantom catching his landing/jump or Zelda stuffing his chase. Perhaps realizing that Zelda is now above and Phantom is in front of him, Doorstop tries to roll through Phantom, but it isn't enough. He now gets launched straight into Myst's Up-Tilt, who just finished landing behind him. Myst then combos into Nair and not one to rest, goes straight into another Phantom setup.
Again, either trying to avoid a ledge trap or not realizing what's happening, Doorstop jumps back over the stage. Perhaps now realizing he put himself in Phantom's way, he uses Flip Kick to stall in the air. This allows for Zelda to finish the charge and move to cover the platform. Perhaps foreseeing this, Doorstop DIs away and to the stage, taking advantage of Nayru's endlag. This however, puts him straight into Phantom's reach, forcing him to shield. Meanwhile, Zelda is running off the platform,ready to capitalize this. Zelda now has the air covered and Phantom is preventing ZSS from moving forward, thus once again trapping ZSS at the ledge. Again, Doorstop tries to bust through Phantom, this time with a less committal F-Tilt. The thing about the Phantom's body, is it slows and prolongs hitboxs. This allowed Myst to trade with sweet-spot Dair, while amusingly having Dair endlag nullified by the trade. That then gave Myst time to quickly dash into a Fair, before ZSS could move.
Phantom allows for Zelda to do all the things I said she couldn't do, like approach, pressuring shields, and setting up combos. This is why I'm saying more mobility won't matter, Phantom is objectively safer and better for covering these options, than a more mobile Zelda would be. The damage output is pretty much top tier level with Phantom, with Zelda's knockback allowing for things like early edgeguards and ledge traps. You would not get anywhere near the same level using mobility and Zelda's knockback and endlag prevents her from being able to use mobility to further optimize combos. And it's not even that it evens the playing field, it actually gives Zelda an unfair advantage. It basically sets up a 2v1 and with the proper spacing, allows for the coverage of all options. This is also why it's a bad idea to attempt to camp Zelda, because it would allow her time to set these scenarios up.
And for the icing on the cake, note how Myst whiffed Fair when attempting to be aggressive with it and landed it when the opponent whiffed or when Myst was doing it from an immobile position or at a very specific spacing. ZSS crouches when going for the grab, which bunches up her hurtbox and allows for easier sweet-spots. When ZSS is standing, that thins her hurtbox, causing whiffs. That goes to show how important hurtbox shifts are and that more mobility wouldn't necessarily help that and might even hurt.
The common trend to notice in all of this, is that Zelda works best when the opponent is attacking her and is a disaster in everything else. Phantom is for aggro, Zelda is for bait. Zelda cannot aggro without Phantom. Once an opponent moves into her space, then the playing field is more even, but in any other state, solo Zelda isn't viable. Myst did a fine job in keeping up with ZSS, it's just that ZSS outclasses Zelda in frame data and hitbox range. Zelda cannot fight her opponents head on, she must find a way to draw them into her space. Drawing them into her space, means she must maintain some form of space, which is why can't be flit around as much, she'll ruin her own spacing and not have access to her superior ground options.
So in other words, what I'm trying to say here is that Zelda's playstyle revolves around convincing the opponent to keep attacking her. Opponents naturally back off when they are getting constantly stuffed. That's when those Phantom setups come in, to either coax the opponent back to you or get those ridiculous combos. Once they are back to you, you can continue stuffing them with superior defensive options until they make a mistake and allow you to get the big hits in. The princess who holds the Triforce of Wisdom, should be the one to hatch the strategies. Traditional princesses generally aren't much in the combat department, so you need a brave Knight to do the heavy lifting.
And with all that I realize I've been approaching advantage wrong and this is probably why you should analyze top players. Stay in school, I guess.
but to say he wouldn't care about having better movement would just be misguided I feel.
This and others have been giving the suspicion that my argument is being misrepresented or misunderstood. I never said better mobility is inherently not useful, I said it isn't inherently useful. I said it depends. Characters that rely on spacing with certain moves like Pikmin or Whips, would want better mobility. A character like ZSS with precise hitboxs, a laggy grab, and little shield damage, would want superior mobility to ensure she can pressure shields safely.
A character like Snake, with a poor disadvantage, but the ability to litter the stage with explosions, would want better mobility. These characters have a kit that benefits or relies on said mobility.
A character like Zelda, with small, precise, laggy hitboxs that nearly the entire cast outranges and/or outframes, no poking tools, no ability to pressure shields, no ability to fend off chases or use retreating attacks, no useful grab, no landing options, did I mention the endlag, no aerial combat ability to speak of, and nothing resembling what you might call neutral tools, wouldn't benefit from that. Have you ever thought Zelda's neutral looks like a schizophrenic mess? That's because there isn't much rhyme or reason to it, it depends a lot on what the opponent does. Y'all are shoehorning playstyles on Zelda that don't suit her. There's a reason why she was bottom tier previously and the things that changed, don't lend to mobile play.
don't see how Greninja circumvents her kit but maybe
S
StoicPhantom
can help me there. I don't think that MU is that hard after seeing Myst vs. JW at Pound which was also apparently Myst's first time fighting a good Greninja.
The set in question is
here.
I don't really have this MU optimized that much, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Greninja's low profile is like fighting Pikachu, but with a giant sword. Dash attack is difficult to work around as Zelda doesn't have anything to counter it with. Fair is also difficult to deal with as it's range and safety make it impossible to really punish, when used properly. It's not necessarily the startup that's the issue, but that he can ensure it's difficult to punish. His low profile kind of makes it difficult to preempt.
There are some other things, but I don't have time to get in to them right know. I think overall neutral isn't going to be an issue, it's advantage state. He can mitigate Zelda's pretty well due to his size and all of the tools to mixup like counter or Side-B. He has literally the most ****ing dumb confirms I think I've seen in this game, being able to confirm Fair from dash attack among others or Up-Smash from Up-air. You're basically looking at only living to 90 due to this and are going to have to find some way to end things before that, as far I can see.
I attack it, to unstale moves for free and if I kill it, stall her from using it for a tiny bit (I think? and I'm not sure how long either, but its quite short compared to s4, that's for sure lol). Hoping at the same time in doing so I bait them to try to hit me.
The amount of time I get seems to usually allow a character to push her into a corner / bad position, at least.
There's virtually no cool down on destruction, at least that's relevant in practice, the only relevant thing will be the endlag of whatever charge level it was at.
As such there isn't really much point in trying to destroy it and you are opening yourself up to attack. I'm not sure who you are playing or the skill of the Zelda, but optimal Zelda's shouldn't be letting you get away with that.
3-0 Sandstorm
.