Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lacrimosa]

This is simply not accurate. Pikachu is probably the best against MK, but is much lower down any accurate tier list. King DDD is pretty awful against MK, but is still pretty high and was considered VERY high for a good bit of the game's life. ICs is definitely #2, but imo is worse against MK than a good number of characters. Jiggs could do surprisng stuff to MK (and Diddy), but was definitely a bottom tier character.

You can find identical examples for Fox in Melee's matchups/tiers as well.

MK's impact on Brawl has become vastly overstated.

When I said "pretty" much then I mean the majority of the cast falls into that. By far not all as there atre still other characters but MK is just the best character in this game, so of course the tier-list will also ressemble the MU chart against him to some capacity. That doesn't mean that there are exceptions of course.

 

[Nekoo]

Like I said before, Joker is undoubtedly the best character in the game, but I haven't seen enough people talk about his disadvantage. No, not Arsene Up B (which is obvious) but the fact he takes a considerable amount of damage due to his attributes. His disadvantage state is bad enough to the point where even P.T (who isn't exactly that meta) can reasonably pressure him. I'm not trying to downplay the character (again, best character), but rather, I think we'll see people optimize their punishes versus Joker as time goes on. Posts like this might have been completely wrong, but the underlying idea was right. Things will let up, a bit.



His throw loops should go. I feel like they weren't confident his character could stand on his own in the metagame so gave him a "reasonably popular tool" that past Smash characters had without really thinking about the consequences.

Joker have a pretty bad disadvantage state as a design purpose.
Rebel's guard while incredibly powerful tool is also a risky move as miss timing it/not timing it long enough Will almost get you killed.
He doesn't have a "get away from me" button and he's a lightweight iirc.
Arsène is powerful, but you might summon him while getting hit/combo'd/ disadvantage state which means that you'll quickly empty that bar that you worked to fill.
And even though Arsène is out, Joker still have the same disadvantage, just harder to get into it.


What make MkLeo's Joker incredible, beside being MkLeo is that he manage to completely wipe out all of those weakness that his enemy never use against him. When Arsène is out, they mostly try to stall him for a good 30 second, when it would be smarter to try and bait an approach to deal % there and there.

But more importantly, what make his Joker fantastic, is his neutral.

MkLeo's Joker is never greedy, and he rarely goes for long loop. He takes what he can, and then use the "bait and punish" style that Joker seems build into in a perfect Neutral state.

 

[PK Gaming]

Joker have a pretty bad disadvantage state as a design purpose.
Rebel's guard while incredibly powerful tool is also a risky move as miss timing it/not timing it long enough Will almost get you killed.
He doesn't have a "get away from me" button and he's a lightweight iirc.
Arsène is powerful, but you might summon him while getting hit/combo'd/ disadvantage state which means that you'll quickly empty that bar that you worked to fill.
And even though Arsène is out, Joker still have the same disadvantage, just harder to get into it.


What make MkLeo's Joker incredible, beside being MkLeo is that he manage to completely wipe out all of those weakness that his enemy never use against him. When Arsène is out, they mostly try to stall him for a good 30 second, when it would be smarter to try and bait an approach to deal % there and there.

But more importantly, what make his Joker fantastic, is his neutral.

MkLeo's Joker is never greedy, and he rarely goes for long loop. He takes what he can, and then use the "bait and punish" style that Joker seems build into in a perfect Neutral state.

Well said

Though to clarify, Joker's weight is slightly below average (93)

It's a part of what makes him so good. He's deceptively difficult to KO

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Joker have a pretty bad disadvantage state as a design purpose.
Rebel's guard while incredibly powerful tool is also a risky move as miss timing it/not timing it long enough Will almost get you killed.
He doesn't have a "get away from me" button and he's a lightweight iirc.
Arsène is powerful, but you might summon him while getting hit/combo'd/ disadvantage state which means that you'll quickly empty that bar that you worked to fill.
And even though Arsène is out, Joker still have the same disadvantage, just harder to get into it.


What make MkLeo's Joker incredible, beside being MkLeo is that he manage to completely wipe out all of those weakness that his enemy never use against him. When Arsène is out, they mostly try to stall him for a good 30 second, when it would be smarter to try and bait an approach to deal % there and there.

But more importantly, what make his Joker fantastic, is his neutral.

MkLeo's Joker is never greedy, and he rarely goes for long loop. He takes what he can, and then use the "bait and punish" style that Joker seems build into in a perfect Neutral state.

What I don't understand is why stall him when he has Arsene, when attacking him directly both gets you damage AND causes him to lose his gauge at a faster rate? Oh btw, in my opinion stalling on the respawn platform as long as possible isn't that useful because the more you wait there, the less invincibility you have upon leaving it.

 

[DelugeFGC]

What I don't understand is why stall him when he has Arsene, when attacking him directly both gets you damage AND causes him to lose his gauge at a faster rate? Oh btw, in my opinion stalling on the respawn platform as long as possible isn't that useful because the more you wait there, the less invincibility you have upon leaving it.

That's all well and good, but one error / overextension on your part gives the Joker a free stock off of you in a lot of situations, the risk is huge there and it's a bit silly to act as if it isn't. This is MU and player dependent, it's not a consistently reliable option to deal with Joker w/ Arsene.

 

[Shaya]

The weakness of Arsene up-b is apparent TT, but I think it relies on the presumption that Joker has expended their mid air jump and/or is forced to recover low. Joker can can weave, jump, and air dodge in a not exactly worse fashion then Chrom can, Arsene is there to reverse/kill you in ways generally only swords, counters or projectiles can interfere with, and he has an insanely strong counter himself that kinda air stalls them that is difficult to go below to trigger (even if you do trigger it safely you've likely given them a jump + air dodge back to the stage you can't do much about).

So how do you make Joker use a jump so he can't safely recover so you can attempt a 2-frame?
By trying to get in their way off stage, which when considering the above, is .. well... quite conditional. But even if you do, he has a bottom-blast zone reaching recovery with an intense amount of invincibility attached to it.
If this character had a reason to ever air dodge off stage when he has counter,gun,etc, then it might be a different situation too.

Again, varying character options would help; Wolf blaster might force a below stage height recovery and then find easy down smashes/ftilts. But I don't think the 2-framability will be applicable in most match ups even with development unless it's a kinda "stars align" situation.

 

[Kiligar]

I believe the main problem is Arsene lasts too long. Cloud limit lasts 15 seconds and instantly disappears with special usage. I believe they should nerf joker’s Arsene time to 20 seconds and buff limit to 20 as well.

 

[PK Gaming]

I believe the main problem is Arsene lasts too long. Cloud limit lasts 15 seconds and instantly disappears with special usage. I believe they should nerf joker’s Arsene time to 20 seconds and buff limit to 20 as well.

That sort of change would do little to address the underlying problem though.

There isn't a singular reason why Joker is top class. "Subtle" was a good word descriptor for him. Hitbox, incredible throw combos, kill setups, movement, gun traps and Arsene all blend together to make him... Joker.

It's going to be difficult to balance him in a way that satisfies everyone, that's for sure. At the very least, weakening his throw combos would go a long way towards putting him at parity with the rest of the cast.

 

[Nekoo]

I believe the main problem is Arsene lasts too long. Cloud limit lasts 15 seconds and instantly disappears with special usage. I believe they should nerf joker’s Arsene time to 20 seconds and buff limit to 20 as well.

Nerfing Arsene's duration to 20 Second is too much, as it means that you only need around 5 to 8 hit that does between 10 to 20% to completely remove Arsene, which means there lots of case in FFA, Double, Item on and WoL (which are mode taken in consideration when Balancing the game whenever we like it or not) Joker will become near unplayable and will never get Arsene.

 

[bc1910]

Wolf forcing Joker low with Blaster benefits his edgeguarding against Joker’s grapple recovery as well since run off Nair is fantastic at dealing with that, as is stage spike Bair (which becomes untechable disgustingly early when sweetspotted) if Joker tries to go more vertical.

Camping Arsene is a double edged sword since Eigaon is such a good projectile and down B is such a good reflector. You’re unlikely to die from Arsene’s (anti-)zoning, but you’ll probably lose the damage war. You need mobility specs to avoid Joker’s anti-zoning tools and a reflector of your own can help. These are two other areas in which Wolf succeeds.

I am of the opinion that counterplay will lean toward laying the smackdown on Arsene as the meta develops rather than running away. Keeping Joker in disadvantage to whittle down the bar is the most effective tactic I’ve seen and is certainly what occurs when Marss takes games off Leo, for example. Camping out a 30(?) second limit break on a character with above average overall mobility isn’t viable for most of the cast.

As far as the revival platform goes, unless Joker is literally a few seconds away from losing Arsene, the most beneficial outcome is easily to land hits and get Joker into disadvantage. The question is whether your character can feasibly use their invincibility to aid with this goal, and whether it is worth giving up the lower risk, lower reward strategy of wasting some Arsene time. So basically, can you catch him. For 80% of the cast the answer is probably no. For 20%, inconsistency is still a factor. The answer will come down to player confidence and attitudes to risk.

Nerfing Arsene's duration to 20 Second is too much, as it means that you only need around 5 to 8 hit that does between 10 to 20% to completely remove Arsene, which means there lots of case in FFA, Double, Item on and WoL (which are mode taken in consideration when Balancing the game whenever we like it or not) Joker will become near unplayable and will never get Arsene.

Arsene’s duration could be specifically adjusted for 1v1 matches only. The devs have shown that they’re not averse to balancing for a specific number of players given the recent buffs to Luma’s respawn time when there are fewer players. The 1v1 damage multiplier also supports this.

 

[Kiligar]

Mii Zoner, I mean sword fighter, looks to be a great counterpick in the current meta. He has the tools to deal with meta characters, such as Snake, Pikachu, Inkling and Joker. Chakram zones well and confirms into things, the tornado does what it does best, Rainbow slash, the reflector is so important to counter camping- I meant passive play and projectile based strategies. Finally, his recovery is fairly good overall, with horizontal and vertical uses. SLEPT on is what I’d say, Mii Zoner is looking to be the most superior Mii. Mii Gunner is a beast in Stamina if that mode becomes more popular, and Brawler isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. The Miis are looking up, especially Kill Confirm the character- oops I meant Mii Zoner. This swordsman looks to be a strong CP.

 

[|RK|]

I'm just going to say that it bothers me that we're talking about Joker nerfs when counterplay literally hasn't been developed.

But the theme of Ultimate is "complain about the perceived #1 until it turns out they weren't that hot," so.

EDIT: Yeah, my MO vs Arsene is to just beat it out of him. Helps especially at ledge. Outside of general mobility and a counter, Joker has no "get out of jail free" card from ledge.

 

[sedrf]

An actual nerf would be to nerf meter gained from being hit and maybe give a small amount of meter for landing hits. Also arsene meter builds up a bit faster if you're behind btw.

But a little off topic, how is lucina in the new patch?

 

[The_Bookworm]

But a little off topic, how is lucina in the new patch?

Pretty much the same character as before for the most part. Forward smash and forward air change is pretty minimal overall.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm just going to say that it bothers me that we're talking about Joker nerfs when counterplay literally hasn't been developed.

But the theme of Ultimate is "complain about the perceived #1 until it turns out they weren't that hot," so.

EDIT: Yeah, my MO vs Arsene is to just beat it out of him. Helps especially at ledge. Outside of general mobility and a counter, Joker has no "get out of jail free" card from ledge.

I don't know about the others, but I speak as a Joker main

I want to avoid kneejerk reactions but I also want to avoid giving characters a pass until it's far too late

The wait and see approach is absolutely the most valid route (and the one Nintendo) but it couldnt hurt to talk about Joker and explore all sides to the character

 

[Frihetsanka]

But the theme of Ultimate is "complain about the perceived #1 until it turns out they weren't that hot," so.

It's really annoying, top tiers in this game aren't nearly as oppressive as Smash 4 top tiers anyway. Could we at least have this thread as a safe haven against "Please nerf X" comments? Discussing a character's strengths and weaknesses can be constructive, but "X should be nerfed" isn't really.

But a little off topic, how is lucina in the new patch?

Lower end of top tier or near the top of high tier, probably. Somewhere around #10-15 or so.

 

[|RK|]

I don't know about the others, but I speak as a Joker main

I want to avoid kneejerk reactions but I also want to avoid giving characters a pass until it's far too late

The wait and see approach is absolutely the most valid route (and the one Nintendo) but it couldnt hurt to talk about Joker and explore all sides to the character

I agree with that, but the first reaction shouldn't be "how should this character get nerfed."

We place too much value on really early impressions, despite being proven wrong multiple times.

It's basically relying on balance patches to solve problems rather than spending any time actually trying to figure the opposing character out.

 

[Thinkaman]

-Thinkaman, "Literally Hitler" , meme on forum, 410 x 650px, 2019

 

[Lacrimosa]

I believe the main problem is Arsene lasts too long. Cloud limit lasts 15 seconds and instantly disappears with special usage. I believe they should nerf joker’s Arsene time to 20 seconds and buff limit to 20 as well.

Either that, or that it charges so damn fast.
Getting Joker at 40%, sometimes even without Rebel's Guard, is just not ok.
I'd rather have it like Cloud: He first has to get you into disadvantage before he can safely use his limit charger with downB. So he gets rewarded when you have played bad against Cloud in a previous neutral exchange. That's not the case for Joker who sometimes gets rewarded because he catches one of your projectile with his speed and Rebel's Guard. Something Incineroar (Revenge works quite similarly tbh) can't really do because of his slowness...

 

[blackghost]

It's really annoying, top tiers in this game aren't nearly as oppressive as Smash 4 top tiers anyway. Could we at least have this thread as a safe haven against "Please nerf X" comments? Discussing a character's strengths and weaknesses can be constructive, but "X should be nerfed" isn't really.

especially since we will see a rise in joker players now. pichu nerfed, lucina nerfed, wolf already seeing heavy counter play. if you want to play an aggressive character with good movement and frame data joker is going to be a common choice.

can we please not repeat the sins of smash 4 as a community response to DLC? go learn the MU. Nothing about joker screams that is needs to be changed. i already think ken buffs will allow him to heavily hit joker. and pikachu should do well also. Every joker is not Leo. Just like every bayonetta isnt zack.

until data and results support it heavily not in favor of touching joker.

 

[PK Gaming]

In more positive news, I like how Joker is able to express MKLeo's raw skill in a way literally no other character could

Joker's skill ceiling makes me want to invest a ton of hours into "getting gud"

 

[|RK|]

Either that, or that it charges so damn fast.
Getting Joker at 40%, sometimes even without Rebel's Guard, is just not ok.
I'd rather have it like Cloud: He first has to get you into disadvantage before he can safely use his limit charger with downB. So he gets rewarded when you have played bad against Cloud in a previous neutral exchange. That's not the case for Joker who sometimes gets rewarded because he catches one of your projectile with his speed and Rebel's Guard. Something Incineroar (Revenge works quite similarly tbh) can't really do because of his slowness...

I thought of a few different responses to this. But I'll go with:

You want the character that slips around people easily, but struggles to approach... to be able to automatically force approaches by manually charging Arsene?

That would make him significantly stronger. Cloud has never had to outplay the opponent to charge limit; it was part of his gameplan. He could charge it immediately forcing you to approach, or charge it once you're already in disadvantage to make your situation worse.

 

[Rizen]

I got to play several matches with a player who I'd also played pre-patch. Pichu's nerfs are significant. The match is essentially the same but you have to win less interactions, he's easier to hit and Ftilt isn't an early kill button. The self damage increase adds up fast. I can see Pichu even dropping down to high tier.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I got to play several matches with a player who I'd also played pre-patch. Pichu's nerfs are significant. The match is essentially the same but you have to win less interactions, he's easier to hit and Ftilt isn't an early kill button. The self damage increase adds up fast. I can see Pichu even dropping down to high tier.

Yeah Id say Pichu is just high-tier now, possibly as far as the lower end. Olimar I see in upper-high tier now, but maybe if they fix his sheidpoking issue .... I can maybe see Peach/Daisy still in top-tier. But some MU's she stuggled with may be even harder now.

Lucina and Wolf got slaps om the wrist essentailly, and Wolf got that improved jab and potential shine shenanigans to compesnate.

 

[NotLiquid]

I can't comment on whether Joker is the best in the game, but I do believe that if he turns out to be, he's the kind of character that kinda earned that distinction, and I'd have no qualms with him being at the top. I'd actually go as far as saying that he's the kind of character Smash needs more of.

Being able to appreciate these aforementioned "subtleties" of what makes a character a top contender has drawn a pretty sharp contrast with the way my overall perception of Smash 4 ended up becoming, where I suspect I was too immature at the time to fully appreciate the things Sheik and Diddy did in various post-patch incarnations. It's for similar overall reasons I ended up gravitating towards maining a character like Inkling, along with dabbling/enjoying a side of Greninja.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Yeah Id say Pichu is just high-tier now, possibly as far as the lower end. Olimar I see in upper-high tier now, but maybe if they fix his sheidpoking issue .... I can maybe see Peach/Daisy still in top-tier. But some MU's she stuggled with may be even harder now.

Lucina and Wolf got slaps om the wrist essentailly, and Wolf got that improved jab and potential shine shenanigans to compesnate.

That shield poke thing is fairly huge (srsly, some chars can randomly land a smash attack on his shield and it just works, other chars can land on him with some lingering hitboxes now). I can't really see him even in high-tier anymore.
Awful recovery, basically no shield. That's not really great, even though the damaga output is still massive, but yeah. We'll see. I doubt we'll see that many Olimar's anymore, though. And most people wanted that.

|RK| Guess I haven't had this in mind. You're probably right there.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Olimar's recovery is not 'awful' now. The Up-B nerf was nonsensical and too much, but his recovery is still very good. The initial usage of it is the exact same it was before, saying it is awful now is assuming that Olimar was literally getting knocked out of his recovery with each use of it. If you're hitting Olimar out of his recovery often, the player using him isn't recovering smart and mixing up well. Olimar is extremely floaty and has a pretty decent air dodge, he can also fling Pikmin at you as he comes back. It seems people forgot this and assume he's Little Mac when offstage.

Friendly reminder Olimar is a lightweight and wasn't often surviving offstage interactions in the first place when they did happen. Also, the shield issue is the kind of thing I see most likely being fixed, and shield tilting on instinct has alleviated the problem to some extent for me.

 

[Fenriraga]

It. Is. Too. Early. To. Talk. About. Joker. Nerfs.

Honestly, I would argue it was too early to be demanding nerfs of and , even if I'm not against the hurtbox changes.

Rather than focusing on nerfing characters we're too impaitent to understand how to counter, wouldn't it be more worth our time to be appreciating characters like the Shotos and Mac and Bayo such?

Nerfing characters makes people not want to play them and encourages toxicity. It just makes top players transition to another exceptional character, who people will complain about, and the cycle will continue. Buffing characters makes those players happy and encourages more people to maybe pick them up. Which could equal more variety in tournaments.

 

[Rizen]

Yeah Id say Pichu is just high-tier now, possibly as far as the lower end. Olimar I see in upper-high tier now, but maybe if they fix his sheidpoking issue .... I can maybe see Peach/Daisy still in top-tier. But some MU's she stuggled with may be even harder now.

Lucina and Wolf got slaps om the wrist essentailly, and Wolf got that improved jab and potential shine shenanigans to compesnate.

Wolf's shine is only 1 f faster.
Down Special

• Reduced startup of hitbox: 7F -> 6F
• Invincibility frames start sooner: 6-9F -> 5-8F
• Reduced the frames it takes for move to start reflecting projectiles: 10F -> 9F

It's not bad but not a game changer.

 

[blackghost]

It. Is. Too. Early. To. Talk. About. Joker. Nerfs.

Honestly, I would argue it was too early to be demanding nerfs of and , even if I'm not against the hurtbox changes.

Rather than focusing on nerfing characters we're too impaitent to understand how to counter, wouldn't it be more worth our time to be appreciating characters like the Shotos and Mac and Bayo such?

Nerfing characters makes people not want to play them and encourages toxicity. It just makes top players transition to another exceptional character, who people will complain about, and the cycle will continue. Buffing characters makes those players happy and encourages more people to maybe pick them up. Which could equal more variety in tournaments.

people dont really understand what the shotos can do. some people here might but the average twitch viewer doesn't. ken and ryu need to win 2 interactions to kill most of the cast on any stage except maybe kalos.

 

[Routa]

I saw someone mention Swordspider. He is neat and all until someone is on your face. He lacks the tools to deal with rushdown. Having a character that can deal with rushdowns is a must have unless fighting uphill battle is your kink or something.

 

[ARISTOS]

Mod edit: <negative thoughts>

?

Let us know if you need to talk it out man, we're all wishing you the best

Bowser doesn't seem to have usual superheavy problems.

Yeah, being fast helps with that. 20th fastest run speed, 5th highest initial dash speed, 16th highest fast falling speed, 17th highest falling speed, 19th fastest air speed, and 12th highest gravity. His traction isn't great (53rd) and neither is his walk speed (68th) or air acceleration (61st). Air accelration is the only one that really affects him but it balances out his above average air speed. His fall speed also means getting out of disadvantage easier and Tough Guy makes projectiles a lot easier to deal with for Bowser than it is for other super-heavies.

Bowser does have some issues, but lacks the issues that other super-heavyweights have to some extent.

Why does Bowser getting results make you anxious?

 

[Bobert]

Calling the most recent character to win a major(or at least do extremely well) "possibly the best character in the whole game" and demanding for nerfs seems to be a really common trend here for some reason.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Buffing characters makes those players happy and encourages more people to maybe pick them up. Which could equal more variety in tournaments.

This.
This.
This this this.

To keep this topic going, who do you think is in the running for buffs in the future?

I'm thinking:

 

[Krysco]

For every patch that goes by, I hope for Isabelle buffs and so far, I have been consistently disappointed. They've fixed bug issues with her Pocket and her Fishing Rod and have made a change to the Fishing Rod just to change it back and I'm pretty sure that's it.

Not as likely but I'd love to see Falco and Ridley buffs. Had Falco's landing fair, his sh nair and his utilt all not connect properly on Joker the other night (although from the discussion going on here at the time, that might be more of a Joker issue than a Falco one) and this most recent patch has shown that the devs really want multihit moves to actually connect properly. I can see Mii Brawler and King K. Rool continuing to get buffs too. Possibly Kirby as well.

 

[Bobert]

For every patch that goes by, I hope for Isabelle buffs and so far, I have been consistently disappointed. They've fixed bug issues with her Pocket and her Fishing Rod and have made a change to the Fishing Rod just to change it back and I'm pretty sure that's it.

Not as likely but I'd love to see Falco and Ridley buffs. Had Falco's landing fair, his sh nair and his utilt all not connect properly on Joker the other night (although from the discussion going on here at the time, that might be more of a Joker issue than a Falco one) and this most recent patch has shown that the devs really want multihit moves to actually connect properly. I can see Mii Brawler and King K. Rool continuing to get buffs too. Possibly Kirby as well.

Falco deserves a few buffs honestly. His throws dont even work properly at high percents, and Up Smash is worthless against characters on platforms. The hitbox on Up Smash is deceptively small infront of him and cant even hit a standing Pikachu. I've had it straight up whiff on Shulk at point blank because of the landing animation for his F-air makes him crouch low enough to avoid it entirely.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This.
This.
This this this.

To keep this topic going, who do you think is in the running for buffs in the future?

I'm thinking:

Bayo just got a fairly large pass, I don't see her getting any more buffs for a while. Same with Little Mac, probably not Bowser Jr either.

Personally, I'm going to guess . I think they're going to focus some of the lessor used characters for buffs. They seem to be reluctant to do massive buffs for, I suspect its due to online play so they're probably out. actually has fairly decent results so I don't know if they really need any buffs. is tied to and I don't know if he's really in a position where the character as a trio needs buffs. I can never tell what they're thinking with this character. might depend on how the new adjustment changes things.

 

[NotLiquid]

This.
This.
This this this.

To keep this topic going, who do you think is in the running for buffs in the future?

I'm thinking:

Rosalina has already gotten a fair share of buffs throughout the Ultimate patches, I'd say she's fairly decent by now; even if she may not be a top-tier contender by any stretch, she's functional in her own way. Doctor Mario as well is also in a decent position, I get the impression they're going to be risk-averse to buffing the character because the only thing that holds him back from really eclipsing his vanilla iteration would be his abysmal disadvantage, considering everything regarding his neutral and advantage state right now is pretty slept on.

Piranha Plant, K. Rool and Jigglypuff may not be buffed much simply because right now the designers seem a little too set in maintaining specific archetypes in their design. Little Mac and Bayonetta are most likely being kept on a leash because their tools run the risk of breaking the metagame if left unchecked.

Right now I feel like only two characters may either be eyed for - or at least require - imminent buffs.
The character that most needs a buff in general based on sheer ineffectiveness is . I had high hopes for her early on when she was revealed but it's become increasingly clear that her basic toolkit is not only inferior in utility to the fighter she's based on (who's already not very good), she lacks kill power, has a mediocre disadvantage, and her neutral was overall stymied by the projectile nerf in previous patches. Having to revert a buff to her Fishing Rod was also completely unnecessary when there's very little else she has going for her.

The character that most needs buffs in terms of fixing things that just straight up don't work properly is . Sorry Thinkaman and every other Sonic detractor on here, but after having a patch that largely fixed a bunch of characters' multi-hit moves - including Ken who was the most meme'd on character about this stuff, Bayonetta who most people thought never would be fixed, and Diddy Kong who basically jumped up a whole tier - there is no reason why Sonic is still donkey butt in being able to perform the few things that's even expected of him when his shortcomings have been known of since day one. It's kind of maddening given that the last patch seemed like it'd be perfect for him, and yet, Up Air and Spin Charge still haven't been fixed, and there's even an undocumented change in the patch notes about how the Homing Attack now behaves. I read a theory somewhere that the fact that this change wasn't documented may imply that Sonic is possibly due for a major patch in the near future - perhaps they're just not entirely sure about his moves - but given the neglect this character has gotten in Smash overall, I'm not hedging my bets.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

Don’t go to school for game design.

Ouch.

Have buffs really improved him, or is he still just a mid tier? I’m pretty interested on how this character works.

 

[Y2Kay]

Be smarter than those kids: Don't go to school for game design.

Amen, Thinkaman. Amen . . . .


Anyway!

Honestly the cries of people complaining about the people complaining about Joker is starting to get tiresome.

Everyone here is well aware Joker has only been out a month. Constant reminders of this are unnecessary.

It’s still been enough time for people to develop opinions on the character. If you think that Joker isn’t overtuned, give us some valid reasoning outside of regurgitating Joker’s release date or reminding us that MKLeo is sick at the game.