Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Thinkaman]

I can't think of any non-mobile dev studio that has marketing/business bean-counters making balance decisions, or having any influence at all.

The risk with DLC characters is that they tend to be more complex+unique than base characters, meaning there is more knobs to turn and more room for top level optimization, in abstract theory. They also, on average, enjoy fewer balance passes before release by nature of their product schedule.

Tbqh exactly one thing jumps out as suspect about Joker to me, from a design perspective: drag-down uair. Sheik's got nerfed in 4, and I can't help but see it as something obnoxious that the devs would be inclined to take out independent of balance concerns.

 

[Nekoo]

Tbqh exactly one thing jumps out as suspect about Joker to me, from a design perspective: drag-down uair. Sheik's got nerfed in 4, and I can't help but see it as something obnoxious that the devs would be inclined to take out independent of balance concerns.

That is something I genuinely agree, the dev seemingly doesn't like Loops, or anything that might make the game "unfun" visually as repeating moves or 0-death/Infinite, you just have to look at the Chrombo getting patch'd, Luigi's 0-death being way harder to land/Impossible, the Ice Climbers Desync/Combo/0-death etc etc...

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see Joker's Drag-down u-air, or ever the Pikachu/Pïchu's Back-air getting strike soon as they lead to some very nasty loops which seems to be something the dev doesn't like at all

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'll say it. I think they are high tier. The issue is most players in smash dont know how to even approach the game as a shoto. Ken's approach is a little closer to a normal smash character than ryu but he's still a steep learning curve. A character that hits THAT hard and has disjoints is a good character. Usually a very good character.

Regarding zack's performance with bayonetta at SnS, it was impressive and it was enlightening.
1. zack is THAT good.
2. people still dont know the Matchup (how in the world did scatt get wiped out by bayonetta while playing snake?)
3. without a kill power increase she has a glass ceiling on consistent placement. when you routinely dont kill until north of 180 even having opponents live into 200s you can't win tournaments.

After beating Zack, Nairo made this tweet:

Beat Zack 3-2 I don't play against bayos anymore let alone a good one so I was like HOW DO I DI STUFF AGAIN

Stressful but I gotta play Void soon AGAIN

— Nairo (@NairoMK) June 1, 2019

There was also the fact that Nairo kind of molly-whopped him immediately after he switched to Lucina.

 

[Jampman]

I can't think of any non-mobile dev studio that has marketing/business bean-counters making balance decisions, or having any influence at all.

The risk with DLC characters is that they tend to be more complex+unique than base characters, meaning there is more knobs to turn and more room for top level optimization, in abstract theory. They also, on average, enjoy fewer balance passes before release by nature of their product schedule.

Tbqh exactly one thing jumps out as suspect about Joker to me, from a design perspective: drag-down uair. Sheik's got nerfed in 4, and I can't help but see it as something obnoxious that the devs would be inclined to take out independent of balance concerns.

Is Joker's drag-down "realer" than Sheik's? I've seen VoiD use hers

 

[NotLiquid]

Lucina is basically the closest thing Bayonetta has to a hard counter in the upper high tiers, so even with limited understanding of how to DI, it wouldn't be surprising to see Nairo reverse that set. Even when not accounting for Bayonetta's issues, Lucina is one character that will continue keeping her in check.

 

[Fenriraga]

I can't think of any non-mobile dev studio that has marketing/business bean-counters making balance decisions, or having any influence at all.

The risk with DLC characters is that they tend to be more complex+unique than base characters, meaning there is more knobs to turn and more room for top level optimization, in abstract theory. They also, on average, enjoy fewer balance passes before release by nature of their product schedule.

Tbqh exactly one thing jumps out as suspect about Joker to me, from a design perspective: drag-down uair. Sheik's got nerfed in 4, and I can't help but see it as something obnoxious that the devs would be inclined to take out independent of balance concerns.

Shiek absolutely still has drag down combos though. So does Greninja.

 

[Thinkaman]

Is Joker's drag-down "realer" than Sheik's? I've seen VoiD use hers

I don't have the hard numbers on hand to back up this claim, but surely it is. Else we and everyone who has ever played a good Joker are drunk at the wheel.


Imo the biggest surprise of the patch was that nothing surprised me, despite it's size. Bullseyes all around. But the second-biggest surprise was lack of Plant buffs. But it seems clear that they are doing focused changes to a finite number of characters at a time, and it makes sense to focus on Plant later rather than sooner.

Shiek absolutely still has drag down combos though. So does Greninja.

Sure, but as said, not to the extent or reward of Joker.

 

[Lavani]

Is Joker's drag-down "realer" than Sheik's? I've seen VoiD use hers

Sheik's is plenty real here, in the previous game it had higher landing lag (21f, 13f, 14f). It was always 21f landing lag in sm4sh though, and nerfs to autolink spikes didn't alter hitstun, so I'm not sure what the nerf was there.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Considering that the things that make more stressful to play has been enhanced further in 3.1.0, I can see why. Regardless, there is still plenty of top talent for Pichu, like with players like Nietono, Tachyon, and NAKAT. We finally got a Pichu in top 8 in a tournament that isn't VoiD.


Dabuz is also planning on dropping . Throughout Ultimate, he wasn't really having fun with Olimar, and the nerfs in 3.1.0 further boosted that. The issue is that I really don't see any upper tiered options left for Dabuz that is on-par with his Olimar. Rosalina is still mid-tier at best, his Greninja still has quite a bit of seasoning to go, and his Palutena, while great, also kind of doubt he can go really far with her alone. We will have to wait and see.
For Olimar himself, players like Shuton, Myran, Rich Brown, and ImHip still exists (they former two played a worse version of Olimar for 4 years, so this doesn't really affect their position on dropping him or not) and is probably still going to be rocking with him.


I have a hot take here: I think is still probably going to be top 5, if not, then top 10 definitely.
When looking under a scope, the nerfs to her isn't as significant as the nerfs to Pichu and Olimar.

• Forward air nerf makes it KO not until about 7% later. Even if it doesn't KO, it will still put the opponent in a bad position offstage. The move's abilities in neutral hasn't been touched whatsoever. For the most part, you are probably not going to notice much difference.
• The 3 frames additional lag for Vegetable is honestly barely noticeable. She still plucks her turnips decently quick, and it is now the middle ground between pre-patch Ultimate turnip and SSB4 turnip (frame 37 (pre-patch Ult), 40 (3.1.0 Ult), 43 (SSB4)). I don't really see this change affecting her much at all.
• Edit: Forgot about sibe B nerf. Previosly shielding the move does absolutely nothing for the defender. This made her side B one of the most annoying moves in the game. This change will make this move less obnoxious, while it still retains its speed, power, and recovery abilities.
• Her biggest nerf is to her back throw. It pretty much lost all of its KO power, aside from maybe on the platforms of Kalos League. It was definitely not the best KO'ing back throw out there to begin with, so while it does hurt, the loss isn't that big (imagine Ness and Zelda losing their KO throws :o ).
• Removal of held item attacks is a bit of an indirect nerf. Not a huge nerf, but a bit of a jab on her.
• Jab and up B buffs are not very significant, especially the latter change. However...
• The forward golf club buff is starting to turn out to be a bigger buff than I expected. The move now has mad KO power. In a matter of days, Japan labbers have already found some crazy stuff with it. An example includes:

Ver3.1.0ピーチ pic.twitter.com/V4DM4JBmqj

— キクノ (@Kiku_No28) May 31, 2019

At the same time, her amazing damage output is relatively untouched, while her neutral game, edgeguarding, and disadvantage hasn't been changed too much. The character is still a top tier threat in my eyes.

???? I was just playing peach the other day and she still can use her turnips with float aerials. I don't know where this information is coming from or maybe I am misinterpreting.

So they make it harder to do Luigi's 0 to death, Ices desync, but not Peach's insane combos?

1.) Peach combos doesn't come from grabs like Luigi (grabbing is far easier to land). Nair and d-tilt doesn't negate shield.

2.) Ice Climbers desync from videos seems to imply 0-deaths if they perfect it. Peach doesn't have 0-deaths.

3.) Peach combo game rarely happens at top level and even then, she's mostly only doing 50% due to the fact it's actually a combo where DI can mix up the peach player. Her main combo starters are nair at point black range and d-tilt. bair can combo into turnaround d-tilt but it's much harder to do.

4.) Which leads to my last point supporting point 3.. Peach IS SLOW which is why it's hard for her landing her combos. It's not hard to avoid her CQC or to force Peach to keep her distance.

5.) all have high damaging combos. Pretty sure there are other characters out there to that can do 50% from a string as well.

 

[The_Bookworm]

???? I was just playing peach the other day and she still can use her turnips with float aerials. I don't know where this information is coming from or maybe I am misinterpreting.

This technique here got patched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwa562kwhOk

If she is able to use her turnips with float aerials, then the removal of this technique is pretty much inconsequential. Good to know.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lemme add to the shoto drama.

Yo New Ken really is lowkey busted LMAO. This Inkling was doing all of the normal Inkling shit and hitting me with EVERYTHING, but that one good conversion can completely take the stock or game. pic.twitter.com/ol2KH9ZD8B

— thotsumaki (@thotsumakiFGC) June 2, 2019

Girthquake also commented on it.

He is not pleased with how Ken has been "balanced."

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

This technique here got patched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwa562kwhOk

If she is able to use her turnips with float aerials, then the removal of this technique is pretty much inconsequential. Good to know.

That technique is very different from Peach's. Peach simply have to float with a turnip in hand and use c-stick (easiest way) to pump out a aerial. Interesting they removed it. I was pretty sure that Peach being able to do that was intentional.

 

[Arthur97]

I can't think of any non-mobile dev studio that has marketing/business bean-counters making balance decisions, or having any influence at all.

The risk with DLC characters is that they tend to be more complex+unique than base characters, meaning there is more knobs to turn and more room for top level optimization, in abstract theory. They also, on average, enjoy fewer balance passes before release by nature of their product schedule.

Tbqh exactly one thing jumps out as suspect about Joker to me, from a design perspective: drag-down uair. Sheik's got nerfed in 4, and I can't help but see it as something obnoxious that the devs would be inclined to take out independent of balance concerns.

Then maybe they should tone down the DLC. Yes, yes, they have to sell it, but, come on, it's Smash fighter DLC. It isn't hard to sell. A fighter does not have to be complex to be fun or good. Ganondorf is fun, but far from complex. Lucina is good, but not complex. If the bells and whistles cause problems, they should save them for the base game where they have more time to iron them out. And honestly, I hate seeing them make DLC more unique than base fighters.

 

[Thinkaman]

I want the Smash DLC to be as awesome as possible, and any other viewpoint is unfathomable to me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Smash DLC being too complex really rubs up against the conceit of Smash, which is a simple and accessible core game with very easily understood characters for everyone involved. When I first played against Bayo (which was in Ultimate btw, I didn't even play Smash 4) I had no idea what was going on.

 

[Nekoo]

Then maybe they should tone down the DLC. Yes, yes, they have to sell it, but, come on, it's Smash fighter DLC. It isn't hard to sell. A fighter does not have to be complex to be fun or good. Ganondorf is fun, but far from complex. Lucina is good, but not complex. If the bells and whistles cause problems, they should save them for the base game where they have more time to iron them out. And honestly, I hate seeing them make DLC more unique than base fighters.

Smash DLC being too complex really rubs up against the conceit of Smash, which is a simple and accessible core game with very easily understood characters for everyone involved. When I first played against Bayo (which was in Ultimate btw, I didn't even play Smash 4) I had no idea what was going on.

I'm pretty sure having Month to design, concept and develop a Single or two DLC character at the same time allow them to be more creative than having to burst out 75+ characters in 3 years of development.
I like the fact that DLC characters try new things, because it shows how the Smash team can go crazy if they have all the time they want, and I would feel sorta robbed if the DLC characters aren't as "meaty" in content/design as they are now with Cloud/Corrin/Ryu/Bayo and now Joker (not counting the S4 veterant DLC obviously)

 

[Heracr055]

Lemme add to the shoto drama.

Yo New Ken really is lowkey busted LMAO. This Inkling was doing all of the normal Inkling shit and hitting me with EVERYTHING, but that one good conversion can completely take the stock or game. pic.twitter.com/ol2KH9ZD8B

— thotsumaki (@thotsumakiFGC) June 2, 2019

Girthquake also commented on it.

He is not pleased with how Ken has been "balanced."

Emblem Lord, you were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!

I'm trying to hold down the fort here with the (potentially outdated but likely still relevant) Shoto knowledge with respect to where they'll end up in the meta lmao

Now a character that I have no clue about is Bayonetta. Captain Zack had a very impressive run at Smash & Splash and actually intrigued me into picking her up. While she's nowhere near her former overtuned self, if you play her in a passive way she can be tough as nails to breach. The lack of killpower and being able to secure kills outside of a hard read is devastating for her, however (game 5 Bayonetta fair fake-out kill cam versus Scatt, anyone?). If you try to employ her for edgeguards I don't see why you wouldn't just go for Joker, who can go just as deep and still be able to make it back.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uh, not to derail the conversation, but I'm utterly failing to remember any changes to Sheik's uair in 4. How did they nerf its dragdown?

 

[blackghost]

Smash DLC being too complex really rubs up against the conceit of Smash, which is a simple and accessible core game with very easily understood characters for everyone involved. When I first played against Bayo (which was in Ultimate btw, I didn't even play Smash 4) I had no idea what was going on.

disagree. DLC by its definition is for the biggest fans of any game series. Its almost never for the general casual audience. Even COD struggles to sell its map pack DLC to most of its community even when COD was in its peak. The new DLC characters have been (for two games now) had unique mechanics and tools not only to sell them but to appeal to players seeking a more complex fighter. everyone doesnt like the basic nature of some older smash characters, personally, they get boring. Ganon is funny for a match or two but he doesnt push my limits as a player.

 

[Roguewolf]

So ken/ryukinda reminds me of Luigi but a little better? As in its hard for him to get that one hit but when he does your stock your life and your kids are gone. Hmm interesting

 

[bc1910]

Sure, but as said, not to the extent or reward of Joker.

Yeah, Sheik’s operate similarly to Joker’s and are fairly comparable in reward. They can easily net her 30%+ and combo into Fsmash at high percents. Her issue is extent, in that that the combos don’t start working until pretty late into the stock. You’re generally waiting for Ftilt to start comboing into drag down Uair.

Greninja’s combos can be more or less rewarding depending on how the tech chase plays out. Bear in mind Greninja has reaction tech chases and a 50/50 dash forward Dtilt confirm which covers all tech options except roll behind. A missed or read tech vs Greninja at 90+ is more devastating than anything Joker can do in base form. Extent is virtually the same as they both get true drag down combos off easy confirms in neutral at any percent (Joker throws/Fair 1, Greninja dash attack/Nair/Uthrow).

Joker’s probably are more devastating overall especially at lower percents since they cannot be teched, only DI’d, but his weaker kill options hurt his finishing ability at high percents unless Arsene is online. DI is also more effective against Joker’s combos than Greninja’s, DI away can make it quite difficult to combo Uair from Dthrow or Up B. Mixing up DI in and DI away makes it difficult to combo Uair into Up B as well. Greninja does have true Utilt/Uair loops on floaties which are hard to DI and don’t force a tech.

As a player of all 3 characters I see Joker’s being the most reliable but I find myself liking Greninja’s the most. Maybe it’s because the tech chase potential makes the whole thing more interactive and involves the opponent. Perhaps Joker’s Uair dragdowns could force tech scenarios at mid-high percents rather than guaranteed combos, for enhanced interactivity?

 

[Bobert]

If I'm paying for a character, I'd like for them to actually have lasting appeal and be a bit more unique from the rest. Corrin was pretty much the worst of the Sm4sh dlc newcomers because he brought nothing new to the table and was super basic. The only thing that stuck out was pin, but only because it was a frame 4 kill move that was safe on shield.

 

[Roguewolf]

Is jokers up air hitbox bigger than sheiks? that might make a differnce if so if not I dunno why jokers is scarier than sheiks

 

[Idon]

However the rest of the DLC goes, I really hope they don't rely on yet another meter filling mechanic, especially if it's filled via taking damage.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Or give us a character with a counter as a lazy filler move.

 

[Thinkaman]

Uh, not to derail the conversation, but I'm utterly failing to remember any changes to Sheik's uair in 4. How did they nerf its dragdown?

I could have sworn there was a change that primarily affected dragdown uair spikes. I could just be conflating jab-lock changes with the initial Sheik nerf, which was definitely to uair's knockback/damage.

 

[Arthur97]

I want the Smash DLC to be as awesome as possible, and any other viewpoint is unfathomable to me.

But if that results in poor balance (like it already did in 4), complexity is not the way to go. Complexity does not automatically equal "awesome." Was Bayonetta absolutely destroying the meta "awesome?" Was Cloud being one of the most broken characters "awesome?" Is Joker being able to get Arsene like it's nobody's business "awesome?" Besides, awesome is subjective. I haven't been much of a fan of the DLC post Roy and Lucas save for Plant.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Does anyone else think that Captain Falcon is low high tier?

 

[Lacrimosa]

But if that results in poor balance (like it already did in 4), complexity is not the way to go. Complexity does not automatically equal "awesome." Was Bayonetta absolutely destroying the meta "awesome?" Was Cloud being one of the most broken characters "awesome?" Is Joker being able to get Arsene like it's nobody's business "awesome?" Besides, awesome is subjective. I haven't been much of a fan of the DLC post Roy and Lucas save for Plant.

Corrin was/is also pretty solid.
Too me, I just want to be DLC around the same level as the rest of the cast. Be it for casual play (some chars are straight up broken with Final Meter/Smash Ball on) and for more competitive play (uff, Isabelle ).
Yes, of course they should be unique, but if we take Banjo&Kazooie as a potential new character then there is a ton of moves from his game to chose from and I'm fairly certain the balance achieves to make it somewhat balanced but adding characters afterwards is always harder to balance than the main roster of, in this case, around 75 characters.

ShadowTheHedgehogZ I haven't seen much of 3.1 Falcon but I bet Fatality will let us see where he can be placed in this patch. Beating MVD on 3.0 was already a huge giveaway (he was a mid to low-tierish character before). It could very well be high-tier for him now.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Or give us a character with a counter as a lazy filler move.

Hi Frank!


Anyway on the topic of DLC, I'm personally real content with design of all the characters through Sm4sh and now.
Corrin may of been poor timing, but they still turned out to real fun to play.

At the best regardless of how they've prefer at touranment level, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo were the most ambitious avatars we've seen yet.
Ultimate is no slouch either, & are a blast to play.

Minus Plant now, I think they've balanced the gimmicky characters well enough.

 

[Arthur97]

Corrin was/is also pretty solid.
Too me, I just want to be DLC around the same level as the rest of the cast. Be it for casual play (some chars are straight up broken with Final Meter/Smash Ball on) and for more competitive play (uff, Isabelle ).
Yes, of course they should be unique, but if we take Banjo&Kazooie as a potential new character then there is a ton of moves from his game to chose from and I'm fairly certain the balance achieves to make it somewhat balanced but adding characters afterwards is always harder to balance than the main roster of, in this case, around 75 characters.

ShadowTheHedgehogZ I haven't seen much of 3.1 Falcon but I bet Fatality will let us see where he can be placed in this patch. Beating MVD on 3.0 was already a huge giveaway (he was a mid to low-tierish character before). It could very well be high-tier for him now.

Banjo wouldn't even need a gimmick. Just a regular moveset like most of the cast and that would be amazing.

And, yeah, the Corrins weren't broken (also first party, hmm), but I still didn't like them.

Hi Frank!


Anyway on the topic of DLC, I'm personally real content with design of all the characters through Sm4sh and now.
Corrin may of been poor timing, but they still turned out to real fun to play.

At the best regardless of how they've prefer at touranment level, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo were the most ambitious avatars we've seen yet.
Ultimate is no slouch either, & are a blast to play.

Minus Plant now, I think they've balanced the gimmicky characters well enough.

Plant doesn't really have a gimmick. No unique mechanic stretching across its moveset. Probably because it was almost certainly intended to be a base fighter. It's vanilla, but still fun. Bad, but fun.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Plant doesn't really have a gimmick. No unique mechanic stretching across its moveset. Probably because it was almost certainly intended to be a base fighter. It's vanilla, but still fun. Bad, but fun.

Well all it's specials (minus Up-B) are gimmicky in their own way.
You don't necessary need a mechanic built across in your moveset if your gameplan heavily functions out of the norm.
Just look at Megaman and Pac-Man.

 

[NotLiquid]

Plant is definitely a bit of a gimmick. Maybe not consciously, in a "has a stand mechanic" or "limit break" way, but in terms of design? It's pretty gimmicky.

I can't think of any characters in the roster who's entire gameplan essentially boils down to "frametrap everything".

 

[G. Stache]

Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know how badly Pichu’s f tilt was nerfed? How much kill power exactly was taken away from the move?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know how badly Pichu’s f tilt was nerfed? How much kill power exactly was taken away from the move?

I've heard it kills around 20% later, so that's a huge nerf for f-tilt.

 

[Thinkaman]

The lack of perspective on balance never ceases to amaze. It's like people complaining about how small their 4 TB hard drive is.

There has been a steady and consistent increase in the quality of game balance over the last 20 years, in spite of games becoming wildly more complex and packed with much more content. Patches are a large part of this but not the whole story--you'd find this trend to still be true even if you looked at Day 0 versions, in which the existence of patches should hurt balance due to making it less urgent.

Smash Ultimate and SFV have very similar online win-rate and usage spreads, at deltas that would have been unheard of 10 years ago in SFIV or Brawl. Just as those games ellipsed the matchup ratios of Melee and 3rd Strike, to say nothing of MvC2.

Smash 4 and fighting games of its era impressively caught up to the impressive character win-rate spreads of the most rigously tuned MOBAs, who employ large live balance teams and update biweekly. And now the current crop of fighting games has surpassed it. Previously, this level of balance was only reported in games targeting intimate communities like Guilty Gear.

Psychology and anecdotes suggest that people will always complain, especially new faces. But by the numbers, we are living in a golden age of game balance.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Since I mentioned ZeRo as a top player, I've been getting a bunch of comments that he isn't relevant and that other people are better. What are your guys opinions on this? Do you think that he's still relevant and that he is considered a top player?

 

[blackghost]

Since I mentioned ZeRo as a top player, I've been getting a bunch of comments that he isn't relevant and that other people are better. What are your guys opinions on this? Do you think that he's still relevant and that he is considered a top player?

you dont get to coast on past accomplishments for long. its all about what have you done lately. If zer0 can perform he is relevant.
until proven otherwise zer0 dominated 4 based on a character dominating neutral and going on grab confirms and easy stilt confirms. Ultimate is a faster game, more aggressive game, and less rewarding for sitting in shield.

 

[Thinkaman]

Since I mentioned ZeRo as a top player, I've been getting a bunch of comments that he isn't relevant and that other people are better. What are your guys opinions on this? Do you think that he's still relevant and that he is considered a top player?

Zero has been retired for a year and a half now. Based on his very limited competitive activites in Ultimate, if he came out of retirement with minimal dedicated practice, I'd estimate that he'd crack the top 50 but not much beyond that. (And it's hard to speculate how far he'd get if he put 100% into it; top 5 is very plausible but I am skeptical he could seize the crown.)

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

So basically you have to go to tournaments to be relevant is what I'm understanding. But I definitely think he would do really well if he takes the time