Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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ProfessorVincent

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I’ve hit Ganondorf with sour spot fairs during edgeguard situations only to have him cross me up and reverse up B me to death. Lucina wouldn’t have that problem.
A few more thoughts on this. Sean, I'm replying to your post because I enjoyed it, not because I want to single you out.

The problem with this anecdote, for me, is the takeaway that Lucina would have killed in this situation. If there was no Lucina in this game, I think the takeaway would be different. Ganon's airspeed is bad and his hurtbox is huge, the fact that you (and we all have been there multiple times) got a sourspot fair in this situation means you still have a lot to improve, not that you should have used Lucina. Ganon has to hold towards the stage if he wants to make it back with his bad recovery, meaning you should have faired a little further back. If he keeps holding towards the stage, you get a tipper and you kill, if he doesn't you whiff and he probably doesn't make it back either way. Lucina is better for edgeguarding if we press buttons without thinking much about it, but in many situations getting a tipper isn't that hard.

Yes, if fox is dashdancing on stage it is basically impossible to get a tipper, but get him in the air and his bad air mobility means that tipper fairs and nairs are not that hard to hit. F-tilt is amazing, as Shaya said. It tippers easily, covers the battlefield platforms with tipper hitboxes, and there isn't much your opponent can do against it if they are cornered by the ledge.

Tippers are hard to land in neutral, but perfectly viable in advantage, especially against characters with bad air speed. Tipper U-air sends the oponent straight up and kills mad early. Pivot F-tilt is a powerful kill move in many situations. Several sourspots can lead into tippers if we play well. Light, small, mobile characters are the hardest to get tippers against, but they are also the ones who die from them the easiest.

Obviously the balancing team wants the two echoes to be at least equally viable. It is perfectly possible that they missed the mark and we will still see more tweaks to Marcina, but it is also perfectly natural that the character that is easier to use get better results in the early meta.
 

DelugeFGC

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I don't know man.. tippers have some ways to combo into them but I wouldn't call them reliable / consistent enough across all MU's to make Marth any better than he's currently being rated.

Also proper DI kind of nukes tipper effectiveness, and if you know the MU well (years of playing Melee Marth with C. Falcon taught me to ALWAYS be ready with my DI, just expecting it sometimes) you shouldn't be getting too many no / bad DI tippers hit on you.
 
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SwagGuy99

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Maybe the better question is if weight class categorization is actually important? Maybe it's just convenient fluid terminology that isn't taken too seriously. I just think the subject should have evolved better than this along with the series. I mean Mario Kart adopted the Cruiserweight class and has a large roster, so why not Smash?
I wouldn't argue against it if it were to happen. Another option would be to keep the current weight categories but to divide the weight values included in each category equally among them instead. Cruiserweight could also be included like you suggested.

If that were to happen, here's what that would look like:

Super-heavyweights (Weight of 135 - 125): :ultbowser::ultkrool:(:ultdk::ultkingdedede:)

Heavyweights (Weight of 124 - 114): :ultganondorf:(:ultcharizard::ultincineroar:)

Cruiserweights (Weight of 113 - 104): :ultpiranha: (:ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultbowserjr:)(:ultsimon::ultrichter::ultike::ultridley::ultwario:)(:ultsnake::ultrob:)(:ultlink::ultyoshi::ultfalcon::ultgunner:)

Middleweights (Weight of 103 - 93): (:ultken::ultryu::ultmegaman:)(:ultcloud::ultswordfighter:)(:ultcorrin::ultmario::ultdoc:)(:ultluigi::ultshulk:)(:ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultwiifittrainer::ultivysaur:)(:ultroy::ultchrom::ultrobin::ultpacman:)(:ultlucas::ultness::ultinkling::ultbrawler:)

Lightweights (Weight of 92 - 83): (:ultwolf::ulticeclimbers::ultvillager::ultlucario:)(:ultpalutena::ulttoonlink:)(:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultdiddy:)(:ultpeach::ultdaisy:)(:ultisabelle::ultgreninja::ultyounglink:):ultlittlemac:(:ultsonic::ultduckhunt:):ultzelda:

Featherweights (Weight of 82 - 72): (:ultrosalina::ultfalco:):ultbayonetta:(:ultmetaknight::ultzss:)(:ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultolimar::ultmewtwo:):ultsheik::ultfox:(:ultgnw::ultsquirtle:)

Balloon Weight (Weight of 71 - 62): :ultjigglypuff::ultpichu:
 

Sean²

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Ken?

So, why shouldn't there be a difference between the two?
Ken and Ryu are still, in general consensus, closer to being on the same level in comparison with Marth and Lucina. Probably a little inflated a bit by the fact that Lucina has been an easy top tier since day 1, and people have been generally underwhelmed by both shotos. High level shoto play is also fairly rare, where high level Marcina play is super common.

Differences are fine, one being noticeably worse than the other is dumb. Differences between echoes should have been handled better. Why give one top tier frame data but meh hitboxes, when the clone gets to bring home the bacon on both fronts? And then there's basically no point in Daisy even being in the game since her turnips were changed back to being the same as Peach's. I'm fine with Echoes existing if there's an actual reason to play one over the other in given situations. They did somewhat okay with the Belmonts (could have done a tiny bit more tbh), Pits, Roy/Chrom and Shotos. The rest are not quite 'there'.

Honestly, if you force the premiere solo Marth main off onto his clone nearly 100% of the time, then the differences are too wide.

A few more thoughts on this. Sean, I'm replying to your post because I enjoyed it, not because I want to single you out.

The problem with this anecdote, for me, is the takeaway that Lucina would have killed in this situation. If there was no Lucina in this game, I think the takeaway would be different. Ganon's airspeed is bad and his hurtbox is huge, the fact that you (and we all have been there multiple times) got a sourspot fair in this situation means you still have a lot to improve, not that you should have used Lucina. Ganon has to hold towards the stage if he wants to make it back with his bad recovery, meaning you should have faired a little further back. If he keeps holding towards the stage, you get a tipper and you kill, if he doesn't you whiff and he probably doesn't make it back either way. Lucina is better for edgeguarding if we press buttons without thinking much about it, but in many situations getting a tipper isn't that hard.

Yes, if fox is dashdancing on stage it is basically impossible to get a tipper, but get him in the air and his bad air mobility means that tipper fairs and nairs are not that hard to hit. F-tilt is amazing, as Shaya said. It tippers easily, covers the battlefield platforms with tipper hitboxes, and there isn't much your opponent can do against it if they are cornered by the ledge.

Tippers are hard to land in neutral, but perfectly viable in advantage, especially against characters with bad air speed. Tipper U-air sends the oponent straight up and kills mad early. Pivot F-tilt is a powerful kill move in many situations. Several sourspots can lead into tippers if we play well. Light, small, mobile characters are the hardest to get tippers against, but they are also the ones who die from them the easiest.

Obviously the balancing team wants the two echoes to be at least equally viable. It is perfectly possible that they missed the mark and we will still see more tweaks to Marcina, but it is also perfectly natural that the character that is easier to use get better results in the early meta.
The exact situation maybe happened to me once or twice tbh, but it was just a fairly extreme example of one of their main differences that could cause a serious competitor to stop using Marth if Lucina was available. Replace Ganondorf with whatever character using whatever move offstage, and the possibility is there. Maybe think Inkling, since the tail of their up B has a hitbox. Misread their DI and get a sourspot, and you could be dead. Obviously there is some human error to account for. DI reads are not always correct, and edgeguards could go south in multiple ways.... But if you're a very serious competitor, then this could be your red flag of what would have been guaranteed in that same situation. Obviously I'm not a top competitor, but it could be something to take into serious consideration if I was.

It's what I like about the trade-off between Roy and Chrom. You have Roy's somewhat inconsistent hitboxes that could cost you kills if you mis-space them based on DI, or player error. Chrom would have gotten those kills, but holds the inconsistency of his poor recovery as a handicap. I just feel like Marth needs to be brought closer to Lucina. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to make Marth broken to do it, but add a little more consistency to the tipper and you have a reason right there to use Marth over Lucina in certain situations.

Regardless, I'm by no means a Marth (or Lucina) main, I use him as secondary and a training/spacing tool as it improves my precision over the other characters I use with very broad, forgiving hitboxes. So I'm really not even close to perfect in any way, and use them primarily for matchups I don't like. I don't quite know all the characters nuances inside and out yet, so I do have room to improve there.
 
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Arthur97

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Ken and Ryu are still, in general consensus, closer to being on the same level in comparison with Marth and Lucina. Probably a little inflated a bit by the fact that Lucina has been an easy top tier since day 1, and people have been generally underwhelmed by both shotos. High level shoto play is also fairly rare, where high level Marcina play is super common.

Differences are fine, one being noticeably worse than the other is dumb. Differences between echoes should have been handled better. Why give one top tier frame data but meh hitboxes, when the clone gets to bring home the bacon on both fronts? And then there's basically no point in Daisy even being in the game since her turnips were changed back to being the same as Peach's. I'm fine with Echoes existing if there's an actual reason to play one over the other in given situations. They did somewhat okay with the Belmonts (could have done a tiny bit more tbh), Pits, Roy/Chrom and Shotos. The rest are not quite 'there'.

Honestly, if you force the premiere solo Marth main off onto his clone nearly 100% of the time, then the differences are too wide.


The exact situation maybe happened to me once or twice tbh, but it was just a fairly extreme example of one of their main differences that could cause a serious competitor to stop using Marth if Lucina was available. Replace Ganondorf with whatever character using whatever move offstage, and the possibility is there. Maybe think Inkling, since the tail of their up B has a hitbox. Misread their DI and get a sourspot, and you could be dead. Obviously there is some human error to account for. DI reads are not always correct, and edgeguards could go south in multiple ways.... But if you're a very serious competitor, then this could be your red flag of what would have been guaranteed in that same situation. Obviously I'm not a top competitor, but it could be something to take into serious consideration if I was.

It's what I like about the trade-off between Roy and Chrom. You have Roy's somewhat inconsistent hitboxes that could cost you kills if you mis-space them based on DI, or player error. Chrom would have gotten those kills, but holds the inconsistency of his poor recovery as a handicap. I just feel like Marth needs to be brought closer to Lucina. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to make Marth broken to do it, but add a little more consistency to the tipper and you have a reason right there to use Marth over Lucina in certain situations.

Regardless, I'm by no means a Marth (or Lucina) main, I use him as secondary and a training/spacing tool as it improves my precision over the other characters I use with very broad, forgiving hitboxes. So I'm really not even close to perfect in any way, and use them primarily for matchups I don't like. I don't quite know all the characters nuances inside and out yet, so I do have room to improve there.
I agree echoes are too little effort, and I would have put more into them, but Lucina toiled in obscurity competitively in 4, it's not a crime for her to be better this time.
 

Idon

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I agree echoes are too little effort, and I would have put more into them, but Lucina toiled in obscurity competitively in 4, it's not a crime for her to be better this time.
I don't agree with Overwatch style "everyone gets their time to be overpowered before we nerf them and overbuff someone else" balancing.
 

Anomilus

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I wouldn't argue against it if it were to happen. Another option would be to keep the current weight categories but to divide the weight values included in each category equally among them instead. Cruiserweight could also be included like you suggested.

If that were to happen, here's what that would look like:

Super-heavyweights (Weight of 135 - 125): :ultbowser::ultkrool:(:ultdk::ultkingdedede:)

Heavyweights (Weight of 124 - 114): :ultganondorf:(:ultcharizard::ultincineroar:)

Cruiserweights (Weight of 113 - 104): :ultpiranha: (:ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultbowserjr:)(:ultsimon::ultrichter::ultike::ultridley::ultwario:)(:ultsnake::ultrob:)(:ultlink::ultyoshi::ultfalcon::ultgunner:)

Middleweights (Weight of 103 - 93): (:ultken::ultryu::ultmegaman:)(:ultcloud::ultswordfighter:)(:ultcorrin::ultmario::ultdoc:)(:ultluigi::ultshulk:)(:ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultwiifittrainer::ultivysaur:)(:ultroy::ultchrom::ultrobin::ultpacman:)(:ultlucas::ultness::ultinkling::ultbrawler:)

Lightweights (Weight of 92 - 83): (:ultwolf::ulticeclimbers::ultvillager::ultlucario:)(:ultpalutena::ulttoonlink:)(:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultdiddy:)(:ultpeach::ultdaisy:)(:ultisabelle::ultgreninja::ultyounglink:):ultlittlemac:(:ultsonic::ultduckhunt:):ultzelda:

Featherweights (Weight of 82 - 72): (:ultrosalina::ultfalco:):ultbayonetta:(:ultmetaknight::ultzss:)(:ultkirby::ultpikachu::ultolimar::ultmewtwo:):ultsheik::ultfox:(:ultgnw::ultsquirtle:)

Balloon Weight (Weight of 71 - 62): :ultjigglypuff::ultpichu:
Numerically it definitely looks cleaner. But I gotta go with what "feels" right as well, as that's how any conversation going forward will remain intuitive. For example does :ultpiranha: feel closer to Heavy or Cruiser? Would one really classify :ultwolf: as a Lightweight (though Fox and Falco are Feaherweights)? Out of those in the 92-91 range the only ones who could get away with being thought of as Lightweight would be Villager and Ice Climbers (arguable).
 

Arthur97

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I don't agree with Overwatch style "everyone gets their time to be overpowered before we nerf them and overbuff someone else" balancing.
If Marth gets to be definitively better, then why not Lucina? I'm not saying it's good balance, but was there anywhere near the same amount of desperation for Lucina to be better in 4? People just seem to not like the idea of an echo being better. If the original is definitively better, few seem to care, but how dare the situation be reversed.

And, yes, arguments that Marth has better potential with nothing to show for it does seem a bit desperate.
 
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Rizen

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Design-wise Lucina was a mistake. Marth's a character who's very good at spacing yet needs to space well for best results. Lucina is the most basic character ever who can get by on fundamentals. That's not to say she's bad; her spacing game is fast with huge coverage. Lucina takes away the skill element that balanced Marth.

Does anyone know what Belmont's worst MUs are? They're extremely polarizing characters.
 
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I generally don't agree with the idea with the idea of overbuffing/overnerfing a character because they deserve it; I hate the fact that Kirby's still paying for his Smash 64 counterpart's sins lol. At least it's gotten a lot better since the days of Smash 4.

On the subject of Marth/Lucina, the power of Marth's tipper versus his non-tipper - and how Lucina's power is determined based on Marth's tipper/non-tipper - looks all over the place.

In some instances, Marth's tipper/non-tippers are very polarizing, with the biggest examples being his FTilt and FSmash. FTilt non-tipper will barely KO at percents above 200%, but tippled, the thing KOs a whole 100% earlier. And I really don't think I need to go into much detail about how ludicrous the power gap is between Marth's tipper/non-tipper forward smash. In these instances, Lucina's attacks are close to Marth's non-tippered attacks in terms of power, with forward tilt not KOing until near 200%, and with her forward smash KOing about 30% later than Marth's.

The most glaring design to decision imo is when we get into the subject of the aerials. For some unknown reason, Lucina's aerials are both much closer in terms of damage and knockback towards Marth's tippers than his non-tippers. BAir and FAir are the biggest proponents of this statement, with Marth's tippers only KOing about 10% earlier than Lucina's; how much percent later does his non-tippers KO at compared to Lucina's? 40%. This could be partially why Marth feels so underwhelming in comparison to Lucina. Not only is microspacing an issue that Marth players have to keep in mind, but the reward you're getting for it does not feel worth it in the end when you have to consider your alternatives.

I think the reason they might've done it this way was because Marth can land his tippers easier when the opponent is at a disadvantage; outside of that however, it feels like you're taking a gamble with Marth for a payoff that isn't as satisfying as Lucina's consistency overall.

If Marth gets to be definitively better, then why not Lucina? I'm not saying it's good balance, but was there anywhere near the same amount of desperation for Lucina to be better in 4? People just seem to not like the idea of an echo being better. If the original is definitively better, few seem to care, but how dare the situation be reversed.

And, yes, arguments that Marth has better potential with nothing to show for it does seem a bit desperate.
While I do think some of it can be chalked up to nostalgia, a lot of it has to do with the difficulty gap between both characters. My mind still might be fuzzy about Smash 4, but from what I heard, Marth was harder to play as in that game compared to Lucina, so in a way, it was generally understandable that he was considered superior to her.

The fact that he's harder to play than her in Ultimate AND is generally agreed to be worse than her probably leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.
 
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Guido65

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Does anyone know what Belmont's worst MUs are? They're extremely polarizing characters.
I'm not the most knowledgeable on the belmonts but I've heard horror stories about how bad the:ultpichu:matchup is for the belmonts and I can easily see it for a few reasons:

  1. The belmonts hitboxes are often very precise and only cover one area at a time so pichus manueverability and size lets him play around this.
  2. Due to his size, pichu low profiles one of their most important neutral tools in ftilt and he approaches from the belmonts blindspots.
  3. The belmonts best options for dealing with this is their Nair, dash attack or up tilt which pichu can easily punish.
 

Arthur97

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I generally don't agree with the idea with the idea of overbuffing/overnerfing a character because they deserve it; I hate the fact that Kirby's still paying for his Smash 64 counterpart's sins lol. At least it's gotten a lot better since the days of Smash 4.

On the subject of Marth/Lucina, the power of Marth's tipper versus his non-tipper - and how Lucina's power is determined based on Marth's tipper/non-tipper - looks all over the place.

In some instances, Marth's tipper/non-tippers are very polarizing, with the biggest examples being his FTilt and FSmash. FTilt non-tipper will barely KO at percents above 200%, but tippled, the thing KOs a whole 100% earlier. And I really don't think I need to go into much detail about how ludicrous the power gap is between Marth's tipper/non-tipper forward smash. In these instances, Lucina's attacks are close to Marth's non-tippered attacks in terms of power, with forward tilt not KOing until near 200%, and with her forward smash KOing about 30% later than Marth's.

The most glaring design to decision imo is when we get into the subject of the aerials. For some unknown reason, Lucina's aerials are both much closer in terms of damage and knockback towards Marth's tippers than his non-tippers. BAir and FAir are the biggest proponents of this statement, with Marth's tippers only KOing about 10% earlier than Lucina's; how much percent later does his non-tippers KO at compared to Lucina's? 40%. This could be partially why Marth feels so underwhelming in comparison to Lucina. Not only is microspacing an issue that Marth players have to keep in mind, but the reward you're getting for it does not feel worth it in the end when you have to consider your alternatives.

I think the reason they might've done it this way was because Marth can land his tippers easier when the opponent is at a disadvantage; outside of that however, it feels like you're taking a gamble with Marth for a payoff that isn't as satisfying as Lucina's consistency overall.



While I do think some of it can be chalked up to nostalgia, a lot of it has to do with the difficulty gap between both characters. My mind still might be fuzzy about Smash 4, but from what I heard, Marth was harder to play as in that game compared to Lucina, so in a way, it was generally understandable that he was considered superior to her.

The fact that he's harder to play than her in Ultimate AND is generally agreed to be worse than her probably leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.
Being hard to play doesn't always mean they have to be good. One might say the Plant is hard to play, but it isn't good.
 

The_Bookworm

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Being hard to play doesn't always mean they have to be good. One might say the Plant is hard to play, but it isn't good.
Yes, but we don't want Piranha Plant to as bad as it is right now. Marth is good, but not really too worth using over Lucina, which is why some aspect of Marth must be overall improved/reworked to match up to Lucina, considering that he is harder Lucina without enough payoff.

I know you like the sweet taste of revenge on those who simply laughed at Lucina in SSB4 for being "worse Marth" (such delicious sweetness if I say so myself lol), but Marth is kind of stuck in the realm of irrelevancy because Lucina exists, and being the harder to play version to boot.
 
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Arthur97

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Yes, but we don't want Piranha Plant to as bad as it is right now. Marth is good, but not really too worth using over Lucina, which is why some aspect of Marth must be overall improved/reworked to match up to Lucina, considering that he is harder Lucina without enough payoff.

I know you like the sweet taste of revenge on those who simply laughed at Lucina in SSB4 for being "worse Marth" (such delicious sweetness if I say so myself lol), but Marth is kind of stuck in the realm of irrelevancy because Lucina exists, and being the harder to play version to boot.
I'll admit, the comeuppance is nice, and I don't want the Plant to be bad either (I still love using it even if it's bad), however, if Marth is buffed, there is the possibility we'll revert back to 4. If only they had decloned so it wouldn't be as much of an issue and then if one fell into competitive obscurity, at least then it wouldn't be at the cost of the other, but this is what we have. The best case I can see coming of this is if Marth fans call for Lucina to be decloned in the future so they aren't stepping on each other's toes, but I doubt that'll happen.

I just kind of doubt they can exist as they are as equals. It seems one will have an advantage over the other.
 

The_Bookworm

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I'll admit, the comeuppance is nice, and I don't want the Plant to be bad either (I still love using it even if it's bad), however, if Marth is buffed, there is the possibility we'll revert back to 4. If only they had decloned so it wouldn't be as much of an issue and then if one fell into competitive obscurity, at least then it wouldn't be at the cost of the other, but this is what we have. The best case I can see coming of this is if Marth fans call for Lucina to be decloned in the future so they aren't stepping on each other's toes, but I doubt that'll happen.

I just kind of doubt they can exist as they are as equals. It seems one will have an advantage over the other.
Even in SSB4, Lucina had the overall better representation and pocket character advantage due to how easy she is in comparison to Marth (thank you ZeRo for being the first to show that). She also had a few matchups where she would indeed have an advantage over Marth instead of either performing the same or slightly worse, due to the consistent blade. She appeals to more aggressive playstyles, which would be more attractive in Ultimate due to being a more aggressive game (emphasis on why Mr E slowly went over to Lucina as time went on and got top 8 at EVO with solo Lucina).

There will always be reasons to use Lucina over Marth, especially if she continues to be prevalent in the current metagame (which contrary to the views of some, I believe will continue to happen). :)
 
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Daisycakes

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As a Marth secondary, let me throw my hat into the ring...

Marth's tipper mechanic isn't just about his damage and knockback output. His attributes and general hitbox arcs support this idea too. Lucina retains the main strengths and weaknesses of Marth, she still retains the same arcing long ranged hitboxes which favour the tip of her sword but don't cover her body well. She still wants to space and play at a distance for maximum safety. Her floatiness and air drift allow for aerial microspacing to create danger zones with her fair and her walk allows her to space with tilts. Her forward smash may come out fast but it has a lot of endlag. Doing it up close to a shield is just asking for trouble.

Roy and Chrom's movesets accentuate Roy's sourspotted sword, despite Chrom not actually having the sourspot. Their swords have noticeably less reach, their aerial movement is stiffer, their jumps are shorter, they have hitboxes closer to their bodies, and generally support a more up close rushdown playstyle in a way Marth and Lucina do not.

Optimally Marth and Roy are the better picks because of how they are rewarded more for executing their different gameplans. In terms of all four of them I would rank it as Marth>Lucina>>>>>Roy>Chrom.
 
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Gleam

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Design-wise Lucina was a mistake. Marth's a character who's very good at spacing yet needs to space well for best results. Lucina is the most basic character ever who can get by on fundamentals. That's not to say she's bad; her spacing game is fast with huge coverage. Lucina takes away the skill element that balanced Marth.

Does anyone know what Belmont's worst MUs are? They're extremely polarizing characters.

I've argued that :ultjoker: might be one of those characters who Belmonts hate because his Counter (name escapes me atm) effectively lets him eat Axes and Cross for Arsene and has his own projectiles (which only improves with Arsene) on top of that.

This may be over simplifying things but to me, if you have a projectile that provides better spacing, you have effectively cut off the majority of Belmont's game. Again, I'm over simplifying things but when you get down to it, Belmont's entire game is simply. Zone and space. They rely almost entirely on zoning out characters and spacing them. Even their non-projectile game is basically "use whip to make space" so any character with effectively a "longer" projectile, not necessarily even a versatile one can just be like...

"Oh? You want to play the zoning game. Fine, let's see how well you handle being out spaced and outzoned. I hope your other abilities make up for it.

:ultbayonetta::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultgreninja:
:ultmegaman::ultlink::ultkrool::ultpalutena::ultpichu:
:ultpikachu::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrob::ultsamus:
:ultdarksamus::ultsnake::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda:

I won't say whether or not these characters hold the advantage over Belmont, though I'd say many of them would. What I would say is that, each one has a projectile or spacing capability to rival if not surpass Belmont's own and once you take out Belmont's advantage in zoning and spacing, you have effectively handicapped the character.

I have never though the Belmonts to be difficult but they can be tedious. They often force you to slow down and play their game. Thankfully their game is often one dimensional. You can imagine how BS Belmonts would be if they had the versatility of the Links.

Imagine if Belmont could throw cross at different angles like Boomerang, hold Holy Water like Bombs or chuck Axes at different altitudes...all simultaneously.
 

Daisycakes

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I've argued that :ultjoker: might be one of those characters who Belmonts hate because his Counter (name escapes me atm) effectively lets him eat Axes and Cross for Arsene and has his own projectiles (which only improves with Arsene) on top of that.

This may be over simplifying things but to me, if you have a projectile that provides better spacing, you have effectively cut off the majority of Belmont's game. Again, I'm over simplifying things but when you get down to it, Belmont's entire game is simply. Zone and space. They rely almost entirely on zoning out characters and spacing them. Even their non-projectile game is basically "use whip to make space" so any character with effectively a "longer" projectile, not necessarily even a versatile one can just be like...

"Oh? You want to play the zoning game. Fine, let's see how well you handle being out spaced and outzoned. I hope your other abilities make up for it.

:ultbayonetta::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultgreninja:
:ultmegaman::ultlink::ultkrool::ultpalutena::ultpichu:
:ultpikachu::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrob::ultsamus:
:ultdarksamus::ultsnake::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda:

I won't say whether or not these characters hold the advantage over Belmont, though I'd say many of them would. What I would say is that, each one has a projectile or spacing capability to rival if not surpass Belmont's own and once you take out Belmont's advantage in zoning and spacing, you have effectively handicapped the character.

I have never though the Belmonts to be difficult but they can be tedious. They often force you to slow down and play their game. Thankfully their game is often one dimensional. You can imagine how BS Belmonts would be if they had the versatility of the Links.

Imagine if Belmont could throw cross at different angles like Boomerang, hold Holy Water like Bombs or chuck Axes at different altitudes...all simultaneously.

K Rool and Zelda and arguably Falco aren't the best at zoning...
 

KakuCP9

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For what its worth, there's at least 20 characters that need buffs more than Marth so I doubt he's going to get any changes until way late into the games life span and to be honest, i don't think he needs any since he still has a powerful combination of range, mobility, OOS options and frame data. I just don't think buffing him just because he's overshadowed by his echo is worth it when he's still way more functional and stronger than a huge chunk of the cast.
 

Daisycakes

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For what its worth, there's at least 20 characters that need buffs more than Marth so I doubt he's going to get any changes until way late into the games life span and to be honest, i don't think he needs any since he still has a powerful combination of range, mobility, OOS options and frame data. I just don't think buffing him just because he's overshadowed by his echo is worth it when he's still way more functional and stronger than a huge chunk of the cast.
I don't even think Marth's worse than Lucina. If he was substantially worse online and offline in terms of damage and KO rates - which they have data of, I am certain Nintendo would have done something since the general idea is for echoes to be equivalent in viability to save on balance time. It's why they only make gameplay changes to them if needed.
 
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Rizen

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I've argued that :ultjoker: might be one of those characters who Belmonts hate because his Counter (name escapes me atm) effectively lets him eat Axes and Cross for Arsene and has his own projectiles (which only improves with Arsene) on top of that.

This may be over simplifying things but to me, if you have a projectile that provides better spacing, you have effectively cut off the majority of Belmont's game. Again, I'm over simplifying things but when you get down to it, Belmont's entire game is simply. Zone and space. They rely almost entirely on zoning out characters and spacing them. Even their non-projectile game is basically "use whip to make space" so any character with effectively a "longer" projectile, not necessarily even a versatile one can just be like...

"Oh? You want to play the zoning game. Fine, let's see how well you handle being out spaced and outzoned. I hope your other abilities make up for it.

:ultbayonetta::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultgreninja:
:ultmegaman::ultlink::ultkrool::ultpalutena::ultpichu:
:ultpikachu::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrob::ultsamus:
:ultdarksamus::ultsnake::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda:

I won't say whether or not these characters hold the advantage over Belmont, though I'd say many of them would. What I would say is that, each one has a projectile or spacing capability to rival if not surpass Belmont's own and once you take out Belmont's advantage in zoning and spacing, you have effectively handicapped the character.

I have never though the Belmonts to be difficult but they can be tedious. They often force you to slow down and play their game. Thankfully their game is often one dimensional. You can imagine how BS Belmonts would be if they had the versatility of the Links.

Imagine if Belmont could throw cross at different angles like Boomerang, hold Holy Water like Bombs or chuck Axes at different altitudes...all simultaneously.
I can say from experience that :ultyounglink: beats the Belmonts. Their spaming is limited to the ground and YL's spam can be jumped around and angled up or down. This way YL evades much of the Belmonts' projectiles and they have trouble avoiding his. Then up close YL is good at smothering them with quick chains. YL should ban platformed stages like BF and move around a lot.

:ultkrool: loses. He has big hurtbox syndrome and gets wrecked in disadvantage. Although I recently found out his counter grants f4-15 invulnerability whether his belly is hit or not so he has some tricks with that, crownerang and Nair to land. It's still really bad though because Belmonts can crack away his belly armor quickly. K.Rool has a hell of a time getting in on them. Belmonts are hard for big characters in general.

Having K.Rool's belly break was a stupid balancing choice. He really needs that armor to not be a beach ball bopped around.
 
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You know for all the heavyweight talk it's kind of odd noone's really labbed out :ultcharizard: at all.
Most opinions are 'I have no clue, i never played him' or only surface level observations with no in-depth analysis. Can we have a broader explanation for the character?
 

Diddy Kong

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Which characters people here think improved most after their buffs last patch? Sheik and Mewtwo got more exposure for once I think. And I’ve seen Diddy players rise from the result thread. Are these buffs underrated so far maybe?
 

Rizen

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You know for all the heavyweight talk it's kind of odd noone's really labbed out :ultcharizard: at all.
Most opinions are 'I have no clue, i never played him' or only surface level observations with no in-depth analysis. Can we have a broader explanation for the character?
Zard was my low tier main in SSB4. I still use him a bit but dislike playing Squirtle so I'm not a good PT player as a whole. Zard has the standard big hurtbox issues. His recovery's good and armored plus he has a 3rd jump so swapping to him to get back to the stage is always useful. Zard has great OoS options and a fast run speed but, like Mewtwo's tail, his head sticks way out in front so his disjoints aren't as big as they seem during the animation. Flare blitz is a strong punishing tool but also very punishable. IMO Zard's main issue is high landing lag on everything. He doesn't have good air to ground options.

As I've said, Zard was never designed to be a complete character and shouldn't be treated as one. He's part of a team.
 
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Arthur97

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I don't even think Marth's worse than Lucina. If he was substantially worse online and offline in terms of damage and KO rates - which they have data of, I am certain Nintendo would have done something since the general idea is for echoes to be equivalent in viability to save on balance time. It's why they only make gameplay changes to them if needed.
They seem more intent on keeping them the same as possible in regards to raw numbers, not so much viability, and Daisy has shown that they are apparently quite determined to stay in the lines.

In any case, I hate the idea that they have to be equivalent. Let her be better (and without any proof, saying Marth is better is a weak statement). It's not the worst thing in the world. But, hey, maybe I'll get lucky and the uproar will force them to declone in the next game (even though it might just make her cut even more inevitable).
 
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As a Marth secondary, let me throw my hat into the ring...

Marth's tipper mechanic isn't just about his damage and knockback output. His attributes and general hitbox arcs support this idea too. Lucina retains the main strengths and weaknesses of Marth, she still retains the same arcing long ranged hitboxes which favour the tip of her sword but don't cover her body well. She still wants to space and play at a distance for maximum safety. Her floatiness and air drift allow for aerial microspacing to create danger zones with her fair and her walk allows her to space with tilts. Her forward smash may come out fast but it has a lot of endlag. Doing it up close to a shield is just asking for trouble.

Roy and Chrom's movesets accentuate Roy's sourspotted sword, despite Chrom not actually having the sourspot. Their swords have noticeably less reach, their aerial movement is stiffer, their jumps are shorter, they have hitboxes closer to their bodies, and generally support a more up close rushdown playstyle in a way Marth and Lucina do not.

Optimally Marth and Roy are the better picks because of how they are rewarded more for executing their different gameplans. In terms of all four of them I would rank it as Marth>Lucina>>>>>Roy>Chrom.
No offense but under what rock have you been living that makes you believe that Marth is the best out of the 4 when both consensus and results in fact prove he's inferior to his clones in his current state.
 
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K Rool and Zelda and arguably Falco aren't the best at zoning...
I'd say Zelda isn't even necessarily a zoning character because phantom does another thing well and that's just defending space she can move in. I don't know how to call this but she feels much more defensive than other zoning characters and therefore also beats most of the characters that rely heavily on projectiles and I still say she wins over or goes even with Olimar but honestly: Every reflector should or has an advantage over him. A reflector is then mandatory for such a playstyle.
She's a bit awkward in that regard as she doesn't play like anyone else.
 

Baby_Sneak

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I've argued that :ultjoker: might be one of those characters who Belmonts hate because his Counter (name escapes me atm) effectively lets him eat Axes and Cross for Arsene and has his own projectiles (which only improves with Arsene) on top of that.

This may be over simplifying things but to me, if you have a projectile that provides better spacing, you have effectively cut off the majority of Belmont's game. Again, I'm over simplifying things but when you get down to it, Belmont's entire game is simply. Zone and space. They rely almost entirely on zoning out characters and spacing them. Even their non-projectile game is basically "use whip to make space" so any character with effectively a "longer" projectile, not necessarily even a versatile one can just be like...

"Oh? You want to play the zoning game. Fine, let's see how well you handle being out spaced and outzoned. I hope your other abilities make up for it.

:ultbayonetta::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultgreninja:
:ultmegaman::ultlink::ultkrool::ultpalutena::ultpichu:
:ultpikachu::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrob::ultsamus:
:ultdarksamus::ultsnake::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda:

I won't say whether or not these characters hold the advantage over Belmont, though I'd say many of them would. What I would say is that, each one has a projectile or spacing capability to rival if not surpass Belmont's own and once you take out Belmont's advantage in zoning and spacing, you have effectively handicapped the character.

I have never though the Belmonts to be difficult but they can be tedious. They often force you to slow down and play their game. Thankfully their game is often one dimensional. You can imagine how BS Belmonts would be if they had the versatility of the Links.

Imagine if Belmont could throw cross at different angles like Boomerang, hold Holy Water like Bombs or chuck Axes at different altitudes...all simultaneously.
the belmonts are about maintaining a certain space. just having a longer projectile doesn't work. when they approach, they're bringing their 100ft long whips too. Approaching isn't them losing the zoning war either, whoever loses stage control is the one that loses. Really hard to zone without space.

So that means, no to :ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultfalco::ultrob::ultdarksamus::ultfox::ultgreninja::ultbayonetta::ultzelda::ultwolf::ultsamus: :ultkrool::ultpalutena::ultpichu::ultpikachu:. None of these guys are gonna shut down belmont's game by simply out-zoning him. Even if with their linear zoning games that often uses one projectile they're able to force a belmont to approach (lol), what are they going to do against whips? That's part of his danger zone as well. And please don't make belmonts approach and get to the center of the stage. That's them getting to their peak.


on another note, if you have good that your character has spotlight at the expense of others, you're too attached to your character and not seeing them as tools. I will elaborate more if I get responded to.
 

Zachmac

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Personally I think the characters who have the easiest time against the Belmonts are characters who have an easy time getting in and bullying him in disadvantage. As a PT players, I always find myself using Squirtle the most in that match up. He's got a small small body to weave around projectiles, a good aerial approach to attack the Belmonts from their blind spot, and a fast juggle game combo game to bully him in disadvantage (the Belmonts have terrible disadvantage). He can also use a quick move to snuff out the Belmont's recovery offstage, although being able to edgeguard a Belmont isn't exactly a huge achievement.

I can see Pichu and Pikachu doing well for similar reasons. They would have an easy(ish) time getting in and bullying the Belmonts up close, and have a flexible recovery which would help take pressure off in escaping from ledgetrap scenerios.

Being able to approach from the air seems especially important in that matchup since a lot of the Belmont's moves cover the ground very well. Of course, you still have to watch out for Axes, so approaching from the air isn't free.
on another note, if you have good that your character has spotlight at the expense of others, you're too attached to your character and not seeing them as tools. I will elaborate more if I get responded to.
If you see your character as nothing more then a tool then you're a monster.
 

Daisycakes

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No offense but under what rock have you been living that makes you believe that Marth is the best out of the 4 when both consensus and results in fact prove he's inferior to his clones in his current state.
Early results are poor for Marth mainly because of this stigma that his entire game relies on hitting the tipper. People often overshoot his range to fish for tippers, and I have seen people go for unsafe smashes all the time and wonder how they get punished...

His gameplan is the exact same as Lucina. They are echoes after all. Use his sword as a sword and attempt to play at a range. The tipper gets him extra reward. Especially forward tilt which is safe and kllls much much earlier than Lucina's.

Roy and Chrom to me are like Sword versions of Little Mac to be honest, but with decent aerials instead of the oomph Little Mac's ground game has. They seem scary but they are poor at spacing and are very linear.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Design-wise Lucina was a mistake. Marth's a character who's very good at spacing yet needs to space well for best results. Lucina is the most basic character ever who can get by on fundamentals. That's not to say she's bad; her spacing game is fast with huge coverage. Lucina takes away the skill element that balanced Marth.

Does anyone know what Belmont's worst MUs are? They're extremely polarizing characters.
I kind of agree with you here! Lucina mains are popping up everywhere, while Marth was, and continues to be, a very precise skill-based character who requires years of practise almost. The people who picked him up in previous games almost always took their previous knowledge of Marth to the next game. Of course with Smash 4 it didn't show untill Marth received some serious buffs, but when he did, he made massive steps.

Lucina in Ultimate is basically a character that anyone could pocket with quite some results. Basically much like Smash 4 Cloud, yet nearly not as ridiculous.

Then again, I feel many of the Ultimate Top Tiers are rather "easy" characters to pick up and play. Exceptions are Fox, Pichu, Greninja (if he still counts), and Shulk. Olimar and Peach are easy if you have previous experience I imagine (I have little Peach experience, only in Melee, and I could easily pick her up now if I wanted). Snake is not really all that much different from Brawl either...

Anyone know anything about what the Japanese speculate to be the current Top Tiers btw?
 

Emblem Lord

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I agree echoes are too little effort, and I would have put more into them, but Lucina toiled in obscurity competitively in 4, it's not a crime for her to be better this time.
Except it is. Because grandpa takes more skill and dedication than she does.

She has no business being the stronger character.

Being rewarded less for hard work is poor game design.

The line between these two is a microcosm of Smash Ultimates biggest issue at a competitive level.

Easy characters are too strong for the amount of time invested.
 
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Daisycakes

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Except it is. Because grandpa takes more skill and dedication than she does.

She has no business being the stronger character.

Being rewarded less for hard work is poor game design.

The line between these two is a microcosm of Smash Ulrimates biggest issue at a competitive level.

Easy characters are too strong for the amount of time invested.
The problem with Lucina is that if you nerf her she will be completely invalidated by Marth. Already they are so similar in gameplay that there isn't a reason to pick one over the other in any matchup. Heck, even Chrom is basically invalidated by Roy, despite many not willing to admit this.
 

Diddy Kong

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The problem with Lucina is that if you nerf her she will be completely invalidated by Marth. Already they are so similar in gameplay that there isn't a reason to pick one over the other in any matchup. Heck, even Chrom is basically invalidated by Roy, despite many not willing to admit this.
Chrom isn't invalidated by Roy. Not at all. His better spacing will make him a better choice in certain matchups where it's important to outspace your enemy.

I personally hope that Marth and Lucina will be rebalanced more to follow suit after Roy and Chrom honestly. Because I feel that Roy / Chrom is how you make an Echo fighter work.

Also, not always is the easier character to play automatically better. I mean, Mario is harder to play than Doc. Sure they aren't classified as Echoes, but still. Same with Young Link and Link. Link is easier to play, Young Link is probably better.

I do hope they change the current Echoes around a little in future patches. I mean, Dark Samus has all the reasons to be somewhat more floaty than Samus for example, maybe make her lighter and faster as well? With the Smash 4 dash attack properties, and give regular Samus the Melee Missiles.
 

DelugeFGC

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How is sourspot FAir not killing a superheavy that lives longer than most all other characters a good example?

Lord.. Is Chrom invalidated by Roy? No. But he's several tier spots worse than him imo. Chrom is the more meta choice right now, I'd say, for sure.. though. When the dust settles I imagine Chrom won't be a highly sought character because of the one bleeding issue he has that's kind of hard to overlook in a lot of MU's. One of (if not THE) most exploitable recoveries in the game, and unlike Ike he has no QD to use in other situations. If Chrom can't gain the horizontal distance he needs off air drift + his jump alone, he just dies. Not to mention how easy it is to stop his recovery. Mario / Doc / Anyone with a counter / etc. just kills Chrom for free anytime he goes offstage, really.

If not for the piss recovery, I'd say Chrom is just outright better than Roy. But that recovery, specifically how exploitable it can be, REALLY hurts him imo. But in the current meta I'd still rank him slightly above Roy.. for now.
 
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How is sourspot FAir not killing a superheavy that lives longer than most all other characters a good example?

Lord.. Is Chrom invalidated by Roy? No. But he's several tier spots worse than him imo. Chrom is the more meta choice right now, I'd say, for sure.. though. When the dust settles I imagine Chrom won't be a highly sought character because of the one bleeding issue he has that's kind of hard to overlook in a lot of MU's. One of (if not THE) most exploitable recoveries in the game, and unlike Ike he has no QD to use in other situations. If Chrom can't gain the horizontal distance he needs off air drift + his jump alone, he just dies. Not to mention how easy it is to stop his recovery. Mario / Doc / Anyone with a counter / etc. just kills Chrom for free anytime he goes offstage, really.

If not for the piss recovery, I'd say Chrom is just outright better than Roy. But that recovery, specifically how exploitable it can be, REALLY hurts him imo. But in the current meta I'd still rank him slightly above Roy.. for now.
Don't forget attack like the whip from the Belmonts or Zelda's phantom and there are probably a multitude of attacks I forgot. These are moves that probably won't kill Chrom at lower percent but if they hit him out of his recovery then he has to recover again and you won't see these move miss anytime soon. Eventually, Chrom just dies and Ike probably, too.
To say it briefly: There are just TOO many moves that can hit Chrom and Ike out of their upB recovery. If one of these characters have him off-stage then it's a very likely dead for him. The recovery alone makes him not high-tier, much less top-tier, despite his good on-stage game.
 

Rizen

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How is sourspot FAir not killing a superheavy that lives longer than most all other characters a good example?
DDD was at 213%. Any attack with halfway decent kill power would have killed; it doesn't matter that it was DDD. If Roy can't land sweet spots he can't kill at all. It's a big issue.
 
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