Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Diddy Kong

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Saw Larry's usage of space animals just now. He plays a very precise and mean Falco. Impressive how he could make Falco hold his own against Wolf. Wolf I believe is actually a pretty ridiculous character. He's meant to be balanced, and can do a little of everything , but instead all he can do has way too much strenght. I get he might be balanced around Fox as well, as in Brawl both Fox and Wolf ended up being regarded as around similar in viability... I believe it's the same case here. Same with the Fire Emblem swordies, with it's exceptions. It's no coincidence that say, both Ike and Roy are now way better than in Smash 4. It's how I believe they balance things around.

Anyway, this is probably how they balance the cast, and I don't expect buffs and nerfs of one character without them touching the others they might be balanced around. Last patch, they deliberately buffed the Smash 4 Top Tiers who where overnerfed.

Still think there's some ridiculous stuff with the current Top Tiers that need adjustments. I mean, people are still claiming that Ultimate isn't as horribly imbalanced as Smash 4 was in it's early days. But whereas Smash 4 had fleeting characters claimed to be Top Tier (Bowser, Little Mac, Greninja for example) not many remained so. In Ultitmate, Wolf, Palutena, Lucina and Snake have been strong since the get-go. And they still are dominant.

I hope the team will not be as conservative with buffs and nerfs in the upcoming patches.
 

$.A.F.

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Saw Larry's usage of space animals just now. He plays a very precise and mean Falco. Impressive how he could make Falco hold his own against Wolf. Wolf I believe is actually a pretty ridiculous character. He's meant to be balanced, and can do a little of everything , but instead all he can do has way too much strenght. I get he might be balanced around Fox as well, as in Brawl both Fox and Wolf ended up being regarded as around similar in viability... I believe it's the same case here. Same with the Fire Emblem swordies, with it's exceptions. It's no coincidence that say, both Ike and Roy are now way better than in Smash 4. It's how I believe they balance things around.

Anyway, this is probably how they balance the cast, and I don't expect buffs and nerfs of one character without them touching the others they might be balanced around. Last patch, they deliberately buffed the Smash 4 Top Tiers who where overnerfed.

Still think there's some ridiculous stuff with the current Top Tiers that need adjustments. I mean, people are still claiming that Ultimate isn't as horribly imbalanced as Smash 4 was in it's early days. But whereas Smash 4 had fleeting characters claimed to be Top Tier (Bowser, Little Mac, Greninja for example) not many remained so. In Ultitmate, Wolf, Palutena, Lucina and Snake have been strong since the get-go. And they still are dominant.

I hope the team will not be as conservative with buffs and nerfs in the upcoming patches.
Greninja = Ultimate Mega Man. Little Mac = Ultimate K. Rool. Bowser = Ultimate Falco. And the top tiers in 4 stayed top tiers diddy, Rosa, Zero Suit, Sheik, Sonic, and Fox were day 1 to day 1,001 top tiers.
 

DunnoBro

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I think wolf just needs an actually BAD recovery. And for upb ledge snap not to hit half a roll distance inward to the stage sometimes. Giving him somewhat of a monopoly on 2-frames and ledge traps.

Blaster should probably also get tweaked somehow. It just too perfectly lends itself to his low % game trying to force people to approach into fair strings. Though I dunno, it might be fine if the main problem is addressed.

It's crazy how much you have to risk trying to l/edgeguard him as some characters. Totally ruining the flow of your advantage state, and having to constantly try fighting him onstage with his oppressive neutral. (Which, I actually think is mostly fine if his disadvantage was more palpable)
 
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SwagGuy99

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You know for all the heavyweight talk it's kind of odd noone's really labbed out :ultcharizard: at all.
Most opinions are 'I have no clue, i never played him' or only surface level observations with no in-depth analysis. Can we have a broader explanation for the character?
I haven't really labbed Charizard but here's my opinion of him based on what I know.

His grounded mobility is excellent. :ultcharizard: is actually a pretty good fighter on the ground in general. His attacks either have good frame-data or long range. His air game is pretty odd though. His aerials all have landing lag that seems too much for the reward they give. His aerials don't really serve much purpose, but they would be a lot better if they did have less landing lag. :ultcharizard:'s air speed is also bad although having multiple jumps somewhat negates that. As a side note, :ultcharizard: does have a halfway decent recovery.

:ultcharizard: also seems to have pretty bad hitboxes on his aerials as well.

:ultcharizard:'s grab game isn't rewarding enough compared to several other characters.

And finally, :ultcharizard: has an enormous hurtbox and has trouble landing because of this along with the high landing lag on his aerials.

IMO, he's a low mid tier. Can do well in certain matchups, although I have no idea why anyone would want to solo-main this character especially because he is part of :ultpokemontrainer:.
 
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Kiligar

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Thanks for all the responses to my previous question. My next one is, what strategies do you guys use to improve, and how vital do you think drills are? I understand how learning combos is important, but how important for you more experienced players is drilling out aerials etc?
 

Zachmac

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:ultcharizard:'s grab game isn't rewarding enough compared to several other characters.
His grab game is actually super rewarding. B-throw and D-throw lead into combos at low percents, while F-throw and B-throw put opponents into edgeguarding situations. F-throw and B-throw kill at reasonable percents near the ledge, and U-throw kills really well with a platform boost or at higher percents.

Zard's grab game is outclassed by Incineroar, DK and Ness sure but its still pretty dang good. Definitely more of a pro then a con. I think when discussing "bad" characters, we have a tendancy of underselling their actual strengths by saying "well it could be better". But the fact of the matter is that most low tiers have plenty of strengths, even if the don't outweigh their weaknesses.

Same thing with overselling their weaknesses. Zard's poor landing lag is a huge detriment in neutral and disadvantage but his aerials are still great in advantage. Nair and Bair are still kind of decent in neutral to. Bair has crazy range and hits as hard as a smash attack, Nair combos into jab and is the exception to the "bad landing lag" rule and Fair/Uair are solid kill aerials.

And it's not just Zard, I see this happen with other characters like Bowser Jr. and Piranha Plant to.
 

DelugeFGC

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No. Too many no's in there to even go into the lot, some yes's too don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of no in there.

Guess my signature covers the specifics, lol.
 
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You know what? I'm actually convinced Snake might be the best character in this game.
He has a toolkit that covers up almost every situation he might find himself in. Snake can blow himself up with a C4 and use the cypher once again if he needs to recover higher. The grenades can shut down rushdown characters attempting to combo him as they can be left on the ground or even held by Snake himself, which will interrupt the flow of the opponent and make it hard to approach. His missiles are arguably the best edgeguarding tool in the game as they can reach anywhere while Snake is safe on stage, most of the cast can't contend with the missiles if they're far away from the stage. The self-stick method is completely deceptive and it's hard to tell when Snake ever has a C4 on the ready. And his up-tilt is a kill-confirm on high percentages.
Great neutral, great ledge trapping, great edgeguarding, great recovery, what does Snake NOT have?
 

Shaya

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1. I [basically] only play Marth. When I say that figuring out how to use dancing blade properly is a thing that may actually come eventually, I'm being serious. Leo's guaranteed db tipper set ups in s4 (tbf, similar shtick existed in brawl/people thought about it before hand) were like what, 2+ years into the game before we saw them?
Or the move is just bad and we pray for a hitbox buff (tl;dr you'll see marth's sword go through people sometime on the final hit of db, other times they'll get tippered a head+ distance away from the sword, there could be some shenanigans similar to his up tilt).

It's naive to say that a character based around spacing, in an entirely new engine, with significant "limits" attached to every movement choice different to any other Smash game wouldn't have development in this area.

Here's an example of one: doing a buffered forward air out of shield FORCES YOU to move forward / cast your initial momentum forward. There are likely dozens to hundreds of little niche things like this, which people tend to complain about and ignore (just like alternative stage choices) hoping it'll just "go away".
The game inhibits reaction, something which was (and still is) a pivotal part of marcina fundamentals. But when you make everything 15-20 frames of commitment, even if it's not "reactable", and you have a tool that snuffs out stocks as low as 40%, the game plan/pivot point has CHANGED.
This also applies to Luci but she's able to hold a LOT closer to their s4 gameplan than marth does right now to be successful.

2. Roy's fair isn't a KO move, not even really the sweet spot (it would ko at 200%, sure).
Roy's back air sour spot scales very strong, same KBK as the sweetspot (assuming same as s4). Sethlon chose to keep it safe or was under pressure, which is fine, but either way he specifically wasn't aiming to kill him with a move that would KO a lot easier with either spacing.

3. Why do people only act as if sour spots are bad and sweet spots are good. It's grating, even if it's in the context of KOing only.

4. Chrom probably is a bit better than Roy overall imo, on stage Up-B is a strong part of it in my opinion. Roy can keep up thanks to side-b and how much earlier jab confirms can ko/other hits. This is his current meta-situation though.
Roy would otherwise have to work a lot harder, as not having KO power at the most extreme range of a move is a counter-productive design point. Chrom will always be able to do nearly just as much as Roy but with a sizeable chunk of difficulty taken away.
The fact that Chrom's jab and ftilt have more range is CRAZY in terms of design decisions. Kinda makes sense, kinda doesn't.

Probably because Roy is theoretically a lot stronger in another area of assumed growth: tech-chasing. This is a long-term optimization. Roy too can ko at 40% - and thanks to the weakness of his sour spots, can keep that immediate "not hit confirm but if I call your next choice it's death" threat out for a very very long time.

-

I'm slowly but (hopefully) surely building up my "thesis" of sorts on Marth/Luci.
The idea that the combination of engine changes and the already existing contrasts of the character (even if they're "the same") equate to the two having a starkly different paths of optimization and potential play styles.

Back to reminiscing of s4 / highlighting something: a lot of the argument for Lucina recognition was roughly "both do the same thing in every match up, how can marth be that much better when it's like this, etc etc".
Now the situation is reversed, the same logic isn't as true, and won't be unless they compensate Marth's sour spots on his smash attacks and increase tipper strength on aerials or tilts. In other words, in almost exactly the same ways Luci was "overtuned" so she could keep up with Marth in S4.

There are rarely any pragmatic reasons for Lucina to not attack/press her advantages immediately in Ultimate - she gets you to a high enough percent where a bair, smash attack or dolphin slash KOs and that's generally it.
But Marth has middling knockback sour spots that hit confirm nicely and for longer, sure, but end up reducing that opponent's vulnerability to dying feasibly significantly earlier - but all you're getting is an extra 5% (maybe) over Luci, but the yolo not tipper fsmash won't ko people at 130%+ while lucis can at sub 100%.

If I can get a hit confirm such as landing up air or up tilt, and I'm Luci, I find little reason not to just go for more up airs and/or eventually a bair ("just keep them above me / moving towards off stage). If they do something extra stupid or they're near a ledge and they fall right into her forward smash, that's a huge bonus.

But as Marth, at the same point of time, I can either go for the same guaranteed things or I can "wait".
Not waiting for long or for a reaction of something per se, but if I want to take advantage of my sour spots, I want to be either using the momentum of the rise of my jump to maintain proximity or the fall of my jump to maximise frame advantage.
Up Tilt/FF uair -> full hop/wait towards the apex of jump -> sour spot bair -> whichever ff aerial I want on landing -> then being at the frame advatage necessary to pick a "reliable" tipper of my choice or take risks/reads to end their stock with fsmash.
I can go for instant bair still and then wait on the subsequent aerial too, but chars with greater aerial acceleration will tend to just be able to drift away and you're giving up a lot of frames for just 13%.

And situations like this are what I aim for - using frame advantage to pursue more than just another hit, but from medium %s, outright KOs. And this only needs to be successful once per game to make you "superior" to Lucina if assuming you're otherwise KOing in a similar or only slightly worse fashion with things like tipper aerials/tilts.

In contrast, Luci right now isn't pursuing a line of reads nor will give up something guaranteed to allow a more rewarding situation to come about; she'll get the hit and continue capitalizing using "reaction" and their speedy frame data to beat out opponent's options ad infinitum: this is simple and incredible effective.

I don't think that this deviation of focus is enough to allow Marth to match Luci's 'tier placement'. And for sure, it isn't as easy or simple to execute either, so that sucks too. But I do think there's a likelihood people are trying to play S4 Marcina when "Melee-esque" specific % focus plays a lot more to his strengths in this engine.
 
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DelugeFGC

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You know what? I'm actually convinced Snake might be the best character in this game.
He has a toolkit that covers up almost every situation he might find himself in. Snake can blow himself up with a C4 and use the cypher once again if he needs to recover higher. The grenades can shut down rushdown characters attempting to combo him as they can be left on the ground or even held by Snake himself, which will interrupt the flow of the opponent and make it hard to approach. His missiles are arguably the best edgeguarding tool in the game as they can reach anywhere while Snake is safe on stage, most of the cast can't contend with the missiles if they're far away from the stage. The self-stick method is completely deceptive and it's hard to tell when Snake ever has a C4 on the ready. And his up-tilt is a kill-confirm on high percentages.
Great neutral, great ledge trapping, great edgeguarding, great recovery, what does Snake NOT have?
I started playing Snake as a joke secondary to piss off one of my friends a few weeks ago.

It's sort of started a fire. Snake has a lot of the mental-setup stuff I liked about Olimar, but my god he's just so well-spread I can't as a competitive player not feel the temptation to main him. Busted AND fun to play? Sign me the hell up. I always really liked trapping / setup characters, which is a big reason that no matter how much Adult Link falls off on my personal tier list overtime I still keep coming back to him. I just really enjoy that sort of stuff. Confirming grenades into aerials, getting dragdowns N/DAirs into Grab > DThrow tech chase traps with C4's, all the disgusting stuff you can do with Side-B and USmash.. Snake is a character that sort of ticks all the right boxes for me. He's stupid, like he's better than he should be, I don't think he's AS bad as people make him out to be but his options are definitely overall way too good.

Hate me if you want. I know what I am. LOL
 
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Daisycakes

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Is Chrom really that much easier than Roy? I am sorry but I fail to see the argument for it besides forward tilt being more effective. Chrom's range isn't exactly the best and he falls like a rock. He's not very good at spacing, probably as a result of his moveset being tuned towards Roy's sourspots.

Going for a stray forward smash isn't the best option for Lucina. It isn't exactly the safest of moves. The best options for her is to play like Marth does, spacing the opponent out. Her arcs are most forgiving at the tip of her sword. Also, Marth and Lucina both have the exact same Dolphin Slash.
 
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Zachmac

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Chrom's range is still much better then the bulk of the cast's. That's still a hecking sword he's swinging around, and it's arching hitboxes to which makes aerials easier to land.

When he charges at you it's like he's a speedy tornado of potential disjoints headed your way and that's really stressful to defend against as most characters. Roy has the potential to hit harder but he has to get in really close if he wants to do it - Chrom is allowed a bit more margin for error. Naturally you still want to at least try to control your spacing with him but even if you can't it's still no big deal.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Greninja = Ultimate Mega Man. Little Mac = Ultimate K. Rool. Bowser = Ultimate Falco. And the top tiers in 4 stayed top tiers diddy, Rosa, Zero Suit, Sheik, Sonic, and Fox were day 1 to day 1,001 top tiers.
Diddy, Zero Suit, Sheik and Fox didn't nearly get as much attention at the get-go of 4 though. Diddy was even considered just a High Tier. Hoo-Hah hasn't even been discovered then. Rosalina was pretty damn mean in the early days however. But most glamoured to Greninja, Little Mac and Bowser in the early 3DS days. Rosalina to.

Anyway, Wolf has been consistantly dominant ever since release. I fail to see how Wolf is less of a problem than the early Smash 4 Top Tiers where.

Also am relieved there's quite a few strong Diddy mains left. Archy plays a good Diddy, Legit mains him, LightningCam is doing great works, and now I also have seen Dakpo pushing Diddy at his hardest. I still think the character is heavily underrrated in this game. Dakpo made it real difficult for Awestin's Ness to win even. That's quite something.

At the very least, I still say Diddy is better than Sheik. VoiD, pick up Diddy instead. :ultdiddy:
 

Daisycakes

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Chrom's range is still much better then the bulk of the cast's. That's still a hecking sword he's swinging around, and it's arching hitboxes to which makes aerials easier to land.

When he charges at you it's like he's a speedy tornado of potential disjoints headed your way and that's really stressful to defend against as most characters. Roy has the potential to hit harder but he has to get in really close if he wants to do it - Chrom is allowed a bit more margin for error. Naturally you still want to at least try to control your spacing with him but even if you can't it's still no big deal.
Yeah, Roy and Chrom still want to use their disjoints and play with controlled aggression. But other characters have better disjoints and more flexible aerial movement to accompany said disjoints. And as disjointed characters, they have even worse framedata than Marth and Lucina, with fewer active frames aside from up air and more endlag overall. Their best move is neutral air. Play around that and wait for them to approach you, and they just falter. It's not like they can drift back.

They are like speedy tornados, but a tornado can only approach the enemy one way, not being able to change it's trajectory well to adapt. Treat Roy and Chrom like sword versions of Little Mac, and not like Marth. They become far less scary.
 
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Kiligar

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Here's my tier list. It's the only one you'll need, as it's objectively right.

View attachment 219148
You have many things pretty accurate, here’s what I think of the list, starting from the bottom. Kirby is no longer D tier. He has been buffed in patch 2.0.0 and patch 3.0.0. The projectile nerf also benefited him.He has many weaknesses, but certain unique strengths, such as a minuscule hurtbox and even tinier crouch. His recovery isn’t the best but it got buffed slightly in ledge grab speed and so it’s overall better than quite a few higher tier characters. (All swordies and heavies bar DK and Krool). Krool got buffed as well, and I think it’s just enough for him to leave bottom tier and join C.

Sheik is way too low, she received buffs throughout both patches, and has many strengths (speed, edgegaurding, low profile, great recovery, amazing neutral). She should be at least bottom B tier.

Mii Brawler is better than Piranha Plant. This character has 12 different specials, the majority of which received major buffs in patch 2.0.0, he has the 4th fastest fast fall Speed in the game, he’s very fast on the ground and pretty fast in the air. Seriously though, check out his stats, search up (X) speed on kurogane hammer. He benefited massively from the projectile nerf. His only weakness is slow forward/down smash. They are silly powerful though. Up smash and edgegaurding are two ways he can overcome this. This character is way underrated.

Robin is better than Isabelle.

Ridley is top C tier. There is good representation of him in tournaments, with players using his strengths to their advantage. Large hitboxes, good frame data for a heavy, great speed stats, decent recovery, and a variety of useful specials for different situations (side and neutral to be specific).

Rosalina is on par with Dr.Mario. She has a high skill curve, but just because she’s hard to pick up doesn’t mean she’s awful. Luma dies easily and Rosalina is light. But Rosalina great options out of attack cancel and lunar landing. Lunar landing is performing a landing aerial with Rosa that doesn’t come out before she reaches the ground. Luma will still perform the aerial and Rosalina can attack/retreat. Her edgegaurding and juggling are great. Her combos are nothing amazing outside of attack cancel, but they get the job done. Her recovery is a little difficult to use, but goes very high. I feel Rosalina will gradually move up as long as she gets skilled representation.

Falco is bottom B tier.

Sonic is upper B tier.

Lucas is upper B tier.

Switch Bayonetta and Ryu, and Corrin is better than Bayo.

Mewtwo is bottom A tier, he received many buffs through the patch and was already strong offensively.

Put DK and Dedede behind meta knight, mega man fills in their spot at the top of B tier.

Link is bottom A tier, may be better than YL.

Roy and Cloud are bottom A tier, Pichu and Inkling are bottom S tier.

Put Joker behind PKMN trainer and Wario behind Yoshi.

ZSS behind R.O.B, Palutena behind Pikachu, Mario is a bit too high.

That’s a long list, but I feel many parts of the tier list were based on pro tier lists, such as Void underrating Sonic, Mario having the best representation in terms of skill and being overrated a bit, and not enough of patch changes taken into account. Still somewhat accurate near the top.
 

Diddy Kong

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Here's my tier list. It's the only one you'll need, as it's objectively right.

View attachment 219148
My personal opinions about this:

A Tier:

:ultpalutena:- Wayyy too low. She's still getting results. Can't be this low, especially beneath Marth, R.O.B. and Mario.
:ultcloud:- Is way too high.
:ultfox:- WAYYY too low! Fox is a definate Top Tier
:ultmario:- A bit too high, he's not all up there yet.
:ultwario:- Tweek is still doing amazing with him. Can't picture him being this low.

Also this tier should've included Link.

B Tier looks quite good. Only think Ness is too low, and Villager way too high. This section also should've included Mewtwo, Diddy, Sheik, Incineroar and Falco at the very least. Because after the buffs, Mewtwo, Diddy and Sheik have been doing qutie damn good honestly. Ganondorf is also a little low I think. And as said before, Link is way too low.

C Tier is okay. I only wouldn't put :ultdiddy::ultmewtwo::ultsheik::ultfalco::ultincineroar: there. They simply don't belong. Piranha Plant is wayyyyy too high, and why put him above Diddy, Falco and Rosalina? Jigglypuff is also better than most unmentoined here, as Hungrybox still plays her. K.Rool can join these ranks, as well as Kirby, and Piranha Plant should be lower than them.

This looks more like a 2.00 patch tier list honestly. Also, they aren't allowed here that's why you where warned.
 
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Yeah this isn't what this thread is for imo (posting & commenting on personal tier lists). Please don't contribute to the cycle.
In other news, there was a tourney yesterday called Saints Gaming. Tweek took first with Wario I believe, coming out 3-1 in Grands over Cosmos and his Inkling. I wonder if Cosmos is being held back by Inkling's limitations, since he proves consistently to do well with the character but never secures a win.
 
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$.A.F.

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Yeah this isn't what this thread is for imo (posting & commenting on personal tier lists). Please don't contribute to the cycle.
In other news, there was a tourney yesterday called Saints Gaming. Tweek took first with Wario I believe, coming out 3-1 in Grands over Cosmos and his Inkling. I wonder if Cosmos is being held back by Inkling's limitations, since he proves consistently to do well with the character but never secures a win.
Inkling is a top ten character. I don’t think that they’re holding back Cosmos.
 

The_Bookworm

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Yeah this isn't what this thread is for imo (posting & commenting on personal tier lists). Please don't contribute to the cycle.
In other news, there was a tourney yesterday called Saints Gaming. Tweek took first with Wario I believe, coming out 3-1 in Grands over Cosmos and his Inkling. I wonder if Cosmos is being held back by Inkling's limitations, since he proves consistently to do well with the character but never secures a win.
Then again, Cosmos usually falls flat of the surefire victory in SSB4 as well with Corrin. He gets top 8 semi-consistently towards the end of SSB4, and even more consistently in Ultimate, but usually never nabs the #1 victory (aside from Big House, though there wasn't that many top players in that tourney).
 

NotLiquid

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Yeah this isn't what this thread is for imo (posting & commenting on personal tier lists). Please don't contribute to the cycle.
In other news, there was a tourney yesterday called Saints Gaming. Tweek took first with Wario I believe, coming out 3-1 in Grands over Cosmos and his Inkling. I wonder if Cosmos is being held back by Inkling's limitations, since he proves consistently to do well with the character but never secures a win.
Tweek is considered by and large one of the best players in the game, if not the best, and he has an extreme amount of experience playing against Cosmos.

Cosmos isn't held back by anything other than just not being a better player. Choking in top 8 seems to be a trend with Panda Global's FGC players, actually.
 
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I think I'm going to have to agree with NotLiquid as well; while he hasn't placed 1st, the fact that he's been one of the only players to consistently get top 8 at any major event is good news for Cosmos and Inkling. He even managed to get his revenge on Marss from Full Bloom too lol.

There is still room to grow with both characters, and if he continues to improve, I can see him getting even farther with the squid gal.
 
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I have been analysing a lot of matches, combed through tier lists, read guides, and spoke to labbers. I even played all four for at least 20 hours each.

Roy's problem isn't realy his sourspot. It's his lack of range, inferior framedata compard to Marth, and poor air acceleration and high gravity meaning that he has to commit to a direction when attacking airborne, making him really linear similar to characters like Little Mac. His recovery is also lacking.

Chroy’s frama data is generally better than Marcina’s. Both in terms of absolute shield safety, frame duration, and landing lag.
Yeah, Roy and Chrom still want to use their disjoints and play with controlled aggression. But other characters have better disjoints and more flexible aerial movement to accompany said disjoints. And as disjointed characters, they have even worse framedata than Marth and Lucina, with fewer active frames aside from up air and more endlag overall. Their best move is neutral air. Play around that and wait for them to approach you, and they just falter. It's not like they can drift back.

They are like speedy tornados, but a tornado can only approach the enemy one way, not being able to change it's trajectory well to adapt. Treat Roy and Chrom like sword versions of Little Mac, and not like Marth. They become far less scary.

Stop.

On the ground
Chroy has better FAF, the same or better shield safety, and same start up on:
Jab (much better shield safety on Chroy)
Ftilt
Dtilt (strictly better on Chroy)
Dash Attack

Marcina has less FAF on
Utilt (34 vs 39)

Smashes:
Marcina has a faster Fsmash, with two more active frames, and slightly better FAF, but Chroy's Fsmash is slightly safer on shield at the strongest part

Chroy's Usmash is 1 frame faster at 12 vs 13 frames, lasts from 12-23 instead of 13-17, and is safer on shield by a fair margin. Same FAF.

Chroy's Dsmash is almost a copy paste of Marcina's frame data wise, with one less active frame on the second hit, and less safe on shield. Marcina has better FAF.

In the Air:
Nair between the two sets is a copy/paste in frame data, but Chroys has 9 frames of landing lag versus Marcina's 7, the latter of which is also slightly safer on shield. Chroy has better FAF.

Fair is not a copy/paste. Chroy's Fair is frame 10 vs Marcina's frame 6. However, Chroy's Fair has an FAF of 30 and 8 frames of landing lag versus an FAF of 38 and 10 frames of landing lag.

Bair is 1 frame slower on Chroy, active for one less frame, and about the same safety on shield. Chroy has better FAF.

Uair is a pseudo copy-paste. Chroy's does less damage, but has more active frames. Chroy has better FAF.

Dair is faster on Marcina, with about the same shield safety, but has better FAF on Chroy. Chroy has better FAF.

Special attacks are their own deal, and I just don't care enough, because my point is made.

Basically.

- Chrom and Roy have better FAF than Marth and Lucina on 9 out of 13 normal attacks.

- They have at least the same start up on 8 out of 13 moves.

- They have a ton of areas where an advantage is an exchange between shield safety and speed, or differing intent of usage.

As for Roy vs Chrom, Chrom's forward tilt is a point to him, as is his Up B OOS. However, Chrom's F Tilt does not hit on top of BF platforms. His U Tilt does but Roy can hit his sweetspot with it by taking a small step away from the opponent.
Chrom's Ftilt does hit on top of BF platforms. It's fairly specific spacing, where Chrom must be about a 45 degree angle away from his opponents feet.

Finally,

Stop spreading misinformation. Between their near 30-ish frame SH duration, and 40-ish frame FH duration, and attack canceling being a thing, along with wavebouncing DED 1, Chroy don't need to commit nearly as much as you think they do.

You are downplaying them based on a short amount of play time, and don't really understand how they work, but rather extrapolating how you think they should work.

Especially Chrom. Treating Chrom like anything other than a footsies monster with a top 5 ledge game is begging to get 0-2'd in bracket.
 

Baby_Sneak

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quick questions:

top 3 players with the best neutral?

top 3 players with the best sense of movement?

do you guys incorporate walking into your game? if so, how? what do you use for micro-spacing?

and, how would one improve their movement? and is this question too broad and not narrow enough?
 
Joined
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quick questions:

top 3 players with the best neutral?

top 3 players with the best sense of movement?

do you guys incorporate walking into your game? if so, how? what do you use for micro-spacing?

and, how would one improve their movement? and is this question too broad and not narrow enough?
Before I sleep:

1.) Leo, Samsora, Dabuz

2.) Venia, Zackray, Tweek - probably

3.) I’m trying to incorporate tilt-canceling to transition to walk to throw off the rhythm of set dash dancing, and to “reset” my initial dash properties.

Depending on the character, I use attack-canceling, and wave-dashing/landing to micro space to force a whiff

4.) Too broad. In general, though, I say literally pick a stage with a level 3 CPU, and get used to how a given character transitions from platforms to ground and back. It sounds basic, but just knowing how fast they can fall from a platform, or how high they actually jump, or how good a wave land is with them, or how long their dash is relative to a platform length is fundamental imo
 

Zachmac

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do you guys incorporate walking into your game? if so, how? what do you use for micro-spacing?
Normally when I walk, it's not for the sake of microspacing but rather so I can more safely approach zoners. Oftentimes rushing in means running straight into a projectile, so it can sometimes help to slow down and move forward at a more reasonable pace. It's also faster to shield out of a walk which is a big help.

Naturally this approach method helps some characters more then others. Charizard has a big body and poor air acceleration, so weaving around projectiles by jumping through is difficult. On the flip side though, he does have a fairly decent walk speed. Squirtle and Ivysaur I walk with less often - Squirtle has a good walk but is even better at approaching from the air compared to the ground, and I basically never walk with Ivysaur since her aerials are so much better in neutral compared to her grounded moves. With Squirtle in particular I can easily feign an approach from the air, land a short distance in front of my opponent and rush in with a dash grab, dash attack, or pivot-boosted f-tilt to catch them off guard.
and, how would one improve their movement? and is this question too broad and not narrow enough?
Practice, and practice with purpose. My movement was really sloppy at the start of Ultimate's life cycle but after enough time in training it's only kind of sloppy.

Some key things to practice are...
- Short hopping
- Fast falling
- Aerial spacing (swordies can be a good way to practice your microspacing here, as a PT main I tend to use Ivysaur)
- Dash Dancing
- Reverse Aerial Rushes
- Pivot canceled tilts (optional depending on your character)
- Roll-canceled boost grabs (also optional depending on your character, but some characters with shorter grab ranges really benefit)

If that's too much to do all at once start with just a couple and slowly trinkle more in.
 
Joined
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C Tier is okay. I only wouldn't put :ultdiddy::ultmewtwo::ultsheik::ultfalco::ultincineroar: there. They simply don't belong. Piranha Plant is wayyyyy too high, and why put him above Diddy, Falco and Rosalina? Jigglypuff is also better than most unmentoined here, as Hungrybox still plays her. K.Rool can join these ranks, as well as Kirby, and Piranha Plant should be lower than them.
I still don't know about Shiek. Mr. R had pretty much no chance against Tweek yesterday. Yes, she still has frame data and a range buff but is that really enough? Guess since this is B-tier (mid-tier), I think that placement is absolutely fine, though.

I just disagree with a few placements in that list. I don't know if that list is ordered, but I'd put :ultduckhunt: (Raito), :ultsonic: (KEN) and :ultzelda: (Ven) one tier higher. If :ultjigglypuff: is mentioned with Hbox and :ultincineroar: with Magister (I think) then I don't fear adding these characters into the mix. And Zelda has gotten much better results then her Sm4sh version.
I haven't seen much the other characters in this tier, but I think these three shouldn't be considered low-tier but at least mid-tier which B in my book is.
 
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While Mr. R did pretty much get wrecked by Tweek during the first and last game, he performed well on the third game and actually mopped the floor with him on game 2 using :ultsheik:. While I don't think she's still all that great, it's hard to argue against the fact that very few characters match her in terms of frame data.


I think Mr. R said he's planning to keep her as a pocket character, which is pretty good news for her overall.

Also, her down tilt is nearly on par with :ultgreninja:'s in terms of KO confirms; at 90~105% she gets an Smash kill off of it, and past that, she can keep getting UAirs at percentages even as high as 150%
 
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Daisycakes

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Stop.

On the ground
Chroy has better FAF, the same or better shield safety, and same start up on:
Jab (much better shield safety on Chroy)
Ftilt
Dtilt (strictly better on Chroy)
Dash Attack

Marcina has less FAF on
Utilt (34 vs 39)

Smashes:
Marcina has a faster Fsmash, with two more active frames, and slightly better FAF, but Chroy's Fsmash is slightly safer on shield at the strongest part

Chroy's Usmash is 1 frame faster at 12 vs 13 frames, lasts from 12-23 instead of 13-17, and is safer on shield by a fair margin. Same FAF.

Chroy's Dsmash is almost a copy paste of Marcina's frame data wise, with one less active frame on the second hit, and less safe on shield. Marcina has better FAF.

In the Air:
Nair between the two sets is a copy/paste in frame data, but Chroys has 9 frames of landing lag versus Marcina's 7, the latter of which is also slightly safer on shield. Chroy has better FAF.

Fair is not a copy/paste. Chroy's Fair is frame 10 vs Marcina's frame 6. However, Chroy's Fair has an FAF of 30 and 8 frames of landing lag versus an FAF of 38 and 10 frames of landing lag.

Bair is 1 frame slower on Chroy, active for one less frame, and about the same safety on shield. Chroy has better FAF.

Uair is a pseudo copy-paste. Chroy's does less damage, but has more active frames. Chroy has better FAF.

Dair is faster on Marcina, with about the same shield safety, but has better FAF on Chroy. Chroy has better FAF.

Special attacks are their own deal, and I just don't care enough, because my point is made.

Basically.

- Chrom and Roy have better FAF than Marth and Lucina on 9 out of 13 normal attacks.

- They have at least the same start up on 8 out of 13 moves.

- They have a ton of areas where an advantage is an exchange between shield safety and speed, or differing intent of usage.



Chrom's Ftilt does hit on top of BF platforms. It's fairly specific spacing, where Chrom must be about a 45 degree angle away from his opponents feet.

Finally,

Stop spreading misinformation. Between their near 30-ish frame SH duration, and 40-ish frame FH duration, and attack canceling being a thing, along with wavebouncing DED 1, Chroy don't need to commit nearly as much as you think they do.

You are downplaying them based on a short amount of play time, and don't really understand how they work, but rather extrapolating how you think they should work.

Especially Chrom. Treating Chrom like anything other than a footsies monster with a top 5 ledge game is begging to get 0-2'd in bracket.
You make some great points, and after testing I have found tnat the f tilt his above ledge, but as you said it's fairly unreliable.

Less than 30 frames of SH air time with little air acceleration isn't very good for a swordie. You basically have no room for microspacing attacks. Especially compounded with generally laggier aerials. Neutral air is one of Chroy's best moves along with Jab. But fair being 4 frames slower and with less range and active frames on top of it?
 

The_Bookworm

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I think Mr. R said he's planning to keep her as a pocket character, which is pretty good news for her overall.
Cool to see that, although Mr.R did tweet that he is going to focus on a :ultchrom::ultsnake: combination for now on for tournaments. Considering the success he has with this combination, I personally say it is a good call. He also wants to implement his :ultinkling:more, but it is not well seasoned yet.
 

PsySmasher

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Yeah this isn't what this thread is for imo (posting & commenting on personal tier lists). Please don't contribute to the cycle.
In other news, there was a tourney yesterday called Saints Gaming. Tweek took first with Wario I believe, coming out 3-1 in Grands over Cosmos and his Inkling. I wonder if Cosmos is being held back by Inkling's limitations, since he proves consistently to do well with the character but never secures a win.
I don't think he's held back by the character per se, but I do think he has to manage his ink a bit better.

In a few games against Marss and Tweek, I kinda got the impression that he was wasting a bit of ink in certain scenarios. And as soon as he ran out, he was in trouble.

He's still a fantastic Inkling overall and a great player. But he could be better.
 

L9999

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Kirby is no longer D tier. He has been buffed in patch 2.0.0 and patch 3.0.0. The projectile nerf also benefited him. He has many weaknesses, but certain unique strengths, such as a minuscule hurtbox and even tinier crouch. His recovery isn’t the best but it got buffed slightly in ledge grab speed and so it’s overall better than quite a few higher tier characters. (All swordies and heavies bar DK and Krool).
Kirby is still irrelevant after the buffs. His top/high tier MUs are still a crapshoot.

Krool got buffed as well, and I think it’s just enough for him to leave bottom tier and join C.
Just because he was buffed doesn't mean he is a tier better. He still gets wrecked by every character that beat him before.

Sheik is way too low, she received buffs throughout both patches, and has many strengths (speed, edgegaurding, low profile, great recovery, amazing neutral). She should be at least bottom B tier.
Watching VoiD and Mr R's matches really show how much Sheik struggles against any competent character. For a chain of 5 hits she does like 10 damage and others do 34 in 2 or 3 hits. If someone gets a lead on Sheik her ass is screwed, she is totally toothless.

Mii Brawler is better than Piranha Plant. This character has 12 different specials, the majority of which received major buffs in patch 2.0.0, he has the 4th fastest fast fall Speed in the game, he’s very fast on the ground and pretty fast in the air. Seriously though, check out his stats, search up (X) speed on kurogane hammer. He benefited massively from the projectile nerf. His only weakness is slow forward/down smash. They are silly powerful though. Up smash and edgegaurding are two ways he can overcome this. This character is way underrated.
Both are equally irrelevant. It really doesn't matter who is better between them on a vaccum. If Mii Brawler is truly underrated please illustrate us on what tools (at least in theory) he has against the relevant characters and where do his faults hold him back.

Robin is better than Isabelle.
Why? This thread is for competitive impressions, not blank statements.

Ridley is top C tier. There is good representation of him in tournaments, with players using his strengths to their advantage. Large hitboxes, good frame data for a heavy, great speed stats, decent recovery, and a variety of useful specials for different situations (side and neutral to be specific).
See? How hard it is to explain yourself?

Rosalina is on par with Dr.Mario. She has a high skill curve, but just because she’s hard to pick up doesn’t mean she’s awful. Luma dies easily and Rosalina is light. But Rosalina great options out of attack cancel and lunar landing. Lunar landing is performing a landing aerial with Rosa that doesn’t come out before she reaches the ground. Luma will still perform the aerial and Rosalina can attack/retreat. Her edgegaurding and juggling are great. Her combos are nothing amazing outside of attack cancel, but they get the job done. Her recovery is a little difficult to use, but goes very high. I feel Rosalina will gradually move up as long as she gets skilled representation.
See? This is productive. You could have even given Kirihara shoutouts for his performance.

Falco is bottom B tier.

Sonic is upper B tier.

Lucas is upper B tier.

Switch Bayonetta and Ryu, and Corrin is better than Bayo.

Mewtwo is bottom A tier, he received many buffs through the patch and was already strong offensively.

Put DK and Dedede behind meta knight, mega man fills in their spot at the top of B tier.

Link is bottom A tier, may be better than YL.

Roy and Cloud are bottom A tier, Pichu and Inkling are bottom S tier.

Put Joker behind PKMN trainer and Wario behind Yoshi.

ZSS behind R.O.B, Palutena behind Pikachu, Mario is a bit too high.
This is the kind of thing that makes me dislike tier list talk and the reason it is banned (IIRC) here. Most people just nitpick the positions and don't provide any comments of substance. "X is too low/high." OK, but why? What MUs do they do so good to be considered a viable character? Also on that subject, positions. "Upper whatever," "lower whatever," they are the most pointless of pointless discussion. For example, does it matter who is better between Ryu and Bayo? Both are equally irrelevant and bad at the time of this post. You are overrating various characters based on non achievements instead of giving us a case why should they deserve to be considered equally good as other characters in their level of relevance. "Getting buffs" is not an argument, otherwise Zelda in Smash 4 would be amazing, she got buffed every patch.
 

Rran

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. . . Also on that subject, positions. "Upper whatever," "lower whatever," they are the most pointless of pointless discussion. For example, does it matter who is better between Ryu and Bayo? Both are equally irrelevant and bad at the time of this post . . .

For the most part, I agree with the general substance of your post (but could do without the catty tone)... except for this bit. To simply disregard debate concerning a decent portion of Ultimate's roster would only serve to limit the game's growth and (hopeful) evolution. Sure, when taken as a whole, most lower-tiered characters will not influence the game's scene at large, but dismissing these conversations as "the most pointless of pointless discussion" is incredibly narrow-minded if we're to view these debates as acts in furthering the meta of Ultimate.

Also, if you, personally, see no need in discussing the "less viable" fighters, surely you don't see harm in letting others discuss their merits ;)
 

Idon

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Nobody asked but Mii Gunner is the worst Mii Fighter probably by a pretty wide margin.
and they take the least amount of effort to play effectively too so it's a sad hard knock life for us.
Outside Smash 4's short stint with custom moves and Brawler tornado kick, have Miis ever been particularly meta-relevant?

Honestly seems not many people are invested in them as either characters or competitively.
 
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AEMehr

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Outside Smash 4's short stint with custom moves and Brawler tornado kick, have Miis ever been particularly meta-relevant?

Honestly seems not many people are invested in them as either characters or competitively.
nobody plays miis for the same reason nobody is playing Wii Fit. Nobody likes the characters.

Gunner's vortex forces snake players to mitigate their use of their explosives much more harshly unless they want a lot of their damage to be lost.
Swordfighter's gale strike just obliterate's olimar's pikmin if thrown about recklessly, and dont get me started on it the attack's setup potential even without the use of hero's spin.
Brawler's damage output is pretty scary through suplex alone, which is a lot considering the character conditions shield since they dont get much out of a grab otherwise. Helicopter Kick is still very potent vs light characters.

They wont be relevant to the meta, popularly anyways, because people generally see them and think "ew". That doesnt say they lack any usability at all.
 

Rizen

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I was watching Riddle's :ultrichter:

Belmonts are possibly the most polarizing characters in the game. They're high tier gate keepers and invalidate big hurtbox characters with some of the strongest landing and ledge traps. If you don't have a good answer to them they'll destroy you. On the flip side, their recoveries are terrible and one wrong move offstage can spell death.

I still feel like Belmonts are on the lower end of high tier. They're powerful enough to take down top tiers if they're not taken down first. Belmonts have kill throws and good burst mobility with things like Dtilt and Dair. They seem better than mid tiers despite their crippling weakness offstage. Other high tiers like Chroy have bad recoveries too.
 

DelugeFGC

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nobody plays miis for the same reason nobody is playing Wii Fit. Nobody likes the characters.

Gunner's vortex forces snake players to mitigate their use of their explosives much more harshly unless they want a lot of their damage to be lost.
Swordfighter's gale strike just obliterate's olimar's pikmin if thrown about recklessly, and dont get me started on it the attack's setup potential even without the use of hero's spin.
Brawler's damage output is pretty scary through suplex alone, which is a lot considering the character conditions shield since they dont get much out of a grab otherwise. Helicopter Kick is still very potent vs light characters.

They wont be relevant to the meta, popularly anyways, because people generally see them and think "ew". That doesnt say they lack any usability at all.
I find Mii Swordfighter to be a non-issue against Olimar, and in general. Gale Strike has a ton of lag and imo it's easy to read, the move has way less utility than a lot of of MS players seem to think it has. If anything I'd say Olimar stomps that MU if he knows what to do. Plus pulling more Pikmin takes little to no time at all, even if you lose them it's not the end of the world.

I'll agree on Gunner, though.. but Brawler's damage output doesn't fix their other glaring issues. All of the Mii's have pretty big problems, primarily that they feel like incomplete characters wholely focused on one aspect of gameplay.. like how Mii Gunner is '100% neutral and nothing else' the character.

You're not wrong about nobody playing them because nobody likes them.. but I don't find of them to be particularly strong characters either. Swordfighter and Gunner can sometimes feel like actual characters.. then one or two things happen in a match and reality comes crashing back. They don't even feel like they belong in the game sometimes.

I know a lot of people who love Wii Fit to death, but that's just in my area.
 
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Kiligar

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Here’s a previous post if mine showing Brawler in tourney, one of the more skilled ones out there who’s quite patronizing to face.
Extremely high level gameplay from Mii Brawler. One of the best brawlers we got, Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People, or WDBTHTGP for short, displays the effectiveness of his Mii brawler set, which uses Suplex for the damage output and ZSS to make up for recovery. A truly brilliant set, Mii Brawler is much higher in the meta than most estimate. I say he’s a better Mario, from my opinion.
I don’t stand with the ‘better’ Mario right now, but he’s close to Mario’s level, the main thing being his kills are harder to hit but more powerful. Also the Kirby being irrelevant thing, I don’t care if Kirby’s not a Palu or Pichu clone after the patch, I care that he has gotten better enough to move slightly up in the tier list. Kirby received several buffs which do make a difference in the hands of skilled Kirby players. Furthermore the projectile nerf is an indirect massive buff to Kirby due to him often struggling to get through projectiles. Komota was able to take Void to a last stock last game situation with Kirby prepatch. After the patch, we’ll see what he can do. The ones I didn’t explain were the ones which people accepted based on results and experience. Robin is better than Isabelle is backed up by recent results, Jul’s placement in SSBU Xeno 155, taking the tournament against Mr.E. There are past examples such as Tiberia and Dath, but the main point is, compare that to Isabelle.

Those simple statements were taken to be accepted as truth without need for explanation, because a clear explanation is ready to be provided. Isabelle’s moveset has her rely heavily on Lloid rocket traps while her close range game is lacking and her kill confirms are underwhelming. It was a sad day for Isabelle mains as well when their Fair and Bair became worse on shield. Furthermore, Isabelle is light so when the opponent gets in her longevity isn’t there. Robin’s main weaknesses is slow movement, but he can pressure the opponent both from range and up close, with great kill power and a solid amount of kill confirms. They both have the trait of wanting to play from a distance, but Robin does it better from a distance and up close. Every buff counts, there are mains for every character in the game and they will use those buffs to their advantage. It does not matter that Kirby isn’t a top tier threat now, what matters is he did get better. He is better now than he used to be by a significant margin. So calling Kirby’s buffs irrelevant is irrelevant.
 
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