Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[ElectricBlade]

Roy outclasses Chrom overall but Chrom still has advantages over Roy.

The main reason you would play Chrom over Roy would be a far better OOS option in Soaring Slash (Roy can have problems with people falling out if done at the necessary angle to hit someone and doesn't do too much damage and never kills if the opponent knows how to DI).

Technically, if you really struggle with hitting Roy's hilt Chrom may be the better option for you. Some people say that not killing a super heavyweight with a sourspot at 213% is fair, but in my opinion it isn't. However, Roy's kill options aren't particularly difficult to hit and kill earlier than Chrom by about 10%~ (Roy still has currently unused kill confirms with sour spots into the gimr tech chase with Ftilt or DED). Chrom still has access to Jab>Bair, but his DED is significantly weaker than Roy's (there are strategies to guarantee the hilt hit of the last swing, if you hit the opponent with the hilt of DED 1 then you can do >>>>, if you hit them with the middle of the blade then do >>^>, and if hit the tipper of DED 1 then you can't true combo but you might catch them with >^^>). The may advantage I can say is if you're consistently missing sweet spot Ftilt and aerials and it is costing you ****.

I just wanna add that wet noodling as Roy is a genuine problem with the character and can't really be solved by saying "lol just space better". It's my least favorite aspect of the character by far.

Chrom's recovery issue is overrated at top level. Watch a Shoyo James match and you'll see that the recovery is workable with proper conditioning, reactions, timing, and planning. However, a lot of people can't do the things that Shoyo does under pressure and prefer to stick with Roy's Blazer. I'm in that camp actually, I don't wanna have my disadvantage depend on perfectly spaced Soaring Slashes in tournament. It's not as exploitable as people say, go watch Shoyo James I'm serious.

Someone brought up the spacing aspect of Roy and Chrom. I'd say that it isn't the hugest difference, although Chrom obviously has the advantage overall but keep in mind that Chrom isn't going to be getting combos off of retreating SHFF Fair and neither will Roy. Roy's tippers are only one frame less safe on block than his hilts. The biggest advantage Chrom has here is that he won't wet noodle during spacing. You both still need to often be at the tip of your hitboxes and Roy will never directly kill you off of his sour spots unless he reads you in disadvantage or by some miracle he can do the Gimr tech chase trap.

Can't really think of any other talking points.

Enjoy your days~

 

[Hippieslayer]

The problem with Lucina is that if you nerf her she will be completely invalidated by Marth. Already they are so similar in gameplay that there isn't a reason to pick one over the other in any matchup. Heck, even Chrom is basically invalidated by Roy, despite many not willing to admit this.

What.. No. Chrom and Roy may not have the range of Marcina, but they are Still swordies. Roy however cant use that range, its a huge downside. If it wasnt because of Roys side-b being stupid, Chrom would easily be better despite his recovery. They also play quite differently in many ways.

I don't even think Marth's worse than Lucina. If he was substantially worse online and offline in terms of damage and KO rates - which they have data of, I am certain Nintendo would have done something since the general idea is for echoes to be equivalent in viability to save on balance time. It's why they only make gameplay changes to them if needed.

Wtf, No. Maybe they just explain the differences in results away using lag and skill requirement. Or, as is far more likely, they havent gotten around to adressing it yet. Just like with 90% of the other balance issues.

They seem more intent on keeping them the same as possible in regards to raw numbers, not so much viability, and Daisy has shown that they are apparently quite determined to stay in the lines.

In any case, I hate the idea that they have to be equivalent. Let her be better (and without any proof, saying Marth is better is a weak statement). It's not the worst thing in the world. But, hey, maybe I'll get lucky and the uproar will force them to declone in the next game (even though it might just make her cut even more inevitable).

A super easy char should never be top tier. You have a lucina avatar, plz stop. I also dont think they have to be equivalent. If One ends Up better it should obv be marth.

I generally don't agree with the idea with the idea of overbuffing/overnerfing a character because they deserve it; I hate the fact that Kirby's still paying for his Smash 64 counterpart's sins lol. At least it's gotten a lot better since the days of Smash 4.

On the subject of Marth/Lucina, the power of Marth's tipper versus his non-tipper - and how Lucina's power is determined based on Marth's tipper/non-tipper - looks all over the place.

In some instances, Marth's tipper/non-tippers are very polarizing, with the biggest examples being his FTilt and FSmash. FTilt non-tipper will barely KO at percents above 200%, but tippled, the thing KOs a whole 100% earlier. And I really don't think I need to go into much detail about how ludicrous the power gap is between Marth's tipper/non-tipper forward smash. In these instances, Lucina's attacks are close to Marth's non-tippered attacks in terms of power, with forward tilt not KOing until near 200%, and with her forward smash KOing about 30% later than Marth's.

The most glaring design to decision imo is when we get into the subject of the aerials. For some unknown reason, Lucina's aerials are both much closer in terms of damage and knockback towards Marth's tippers than his non-tippers. BAir and FAir are the biggest proponents of this statement, with Marth's tippers only KOing about 10% earlier than Lucina's; how much percent later does his non-tippers KO at compared to Lucina's? 40%. This could be partially why Marth feels so underwhelming in comparison to Lucina. Not only is microspacing an issue that Marth players have to keep in mind, but the reward you're getting for it does not feel worth it in the end when you have to consider your alternatives.

I think the reason they might've done it this way was because Marth can land his tippers easier when the opponent is at a disadvantage; outside of that however, it feels like you're taking a gamble with Marth for a payoff that isn't as satisfying as Lucina's consistency overall.



While I do think some of it can be chalked up to nostalgia, a lot of it has to do with the difficulty gap between both characters. My mind still might be fuzzy about Smash 4, but from what I heard, Marth was harder to play as in that game compared to Lucina, so in a way, it was generally understandable that he was considered superior to her.

The fact that he's harder to play than her in Ultimate AND is generally agreed to be worse than her probably leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

Rly nice post. Couple this with the tipper hitboxes being really small and we have the current situation.

Its baffling to me how Arthur and Daisycakes even AFTER this post continue to post their own irrational and ignorant views on the topic.

Edit: shouldnt bunch the two Up, Arthur is just a bit biased whereas Daisycakes seems to be trying to hit the world record when it comes to spewing out blatant inaccuracies.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The problem with Lucina is that if you nerf her she will be completely invalidated by Marth. Already they are so similar in gameplay that there isn't a reason to pick one over the other in any matchup. Heck, even Chrom is basically invalidated by Roy, despite many not willing to admit this.

Chrom's jab > Roy.

All you need to know.

 

[DelugeFGC]

There's too many variables in that D3 clip for me to consider that 'problematic'.

1. Sourspot FAir.

2. A super heavy.

3. D3, no less, a SH who lives longer than 99% of the roster if NOT the longest overall due to his recovery when not edge guarded.

4. DI, can't forget DI.

5. It put him into a situation (a bad one) where he died right after to a NAir on the ledge. So it basically kinda DID kill him.


This clip is not an example of what I'd call a large problem. If you want to roast the flameboi, by all means, he definitely has his problems.. but that clip in particular just is not what I'd call the best showing of them.

 

[Arthur97]

What.. No. Chrom and Roy may not have the range of Marcina, but they are Still swordies. Roy however cant use that range, its a huge downside. If it wasnt because of Roys side-b being stupid, Chrom would easily be better despite his recovery. They also play quite differently in many ways.



Wtf, No. Maybe they just explain the differences in results away using lag and skill requirement. Or, as is far more likely, they havent gotten around to adressing it yet. Just like with 90% of the other balance issues.



A super easy char should never be top tier. You have a lucina avatar, plz stop. I also dont think they have to be equivalent. If One ends Up better it should obv be marth.



Rly nice post. Couple this with the tipper hitboxes being really small and we have the current situation.

Its baffling to me how Arthur and Daisycakes even AFTER this post continue to post their own irrational and ignorant views on the topic.

Edit: shouldnt bunch the two Up, Arthur is just a bit biased whereas Daisycakes seems to be trying to hit the world record when it comes to spewing out blatant inaccuracies.

Yes, I'm biased, but why shouldn't they be top tier just because they're easier? Being easy or basic is not grounds for being bad. That's just how the balance fell this time.

And, how exactly are my views ignorant? It's general consensus she's better, and I'm just annoyed by people who just think Marth has a right to be better for some reason or another, or insist that he will be better eventually with no proof to back them up other than "he's more complex and will develop, trust me. Look at that potential.." Whether that be because he came first or he's harder as an abundance of skill to pull off does not always correlate to better. Not everyone needs to be Snake.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Absolutely, Chrom's Jab is overall better than Roy's considering he can kill from a safe spaced quick poke while Roy needs to get in shield grab range to try his.


Also, the D3 clip isn't an isolated incident. That scenario (although not as extreme as 200%) happens in a ton of Roy matches even from his higher level players.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Absolutely, Chrom's Jab is overall better than Roy's considering he can kill from a safe spaced quick poke while Roy needs to get in shield grab range to try his.


Also, the D3 clip isn't an isolated incident. That scenario (although not as extreme as 200%) happens in a ton of Roy matches even from his higher level players.

I didn't say it was, but I can go dig up clips from plenty of high tiered and top tiered characters failing to kill D3 at very high percents too and I don't think a lot of people would suddenly use that as a means to push them being worse than they're currently ranked.

That's all I'm saying. The sweetspot isn't hard to land when compared to something like Marth's tipper, so Roy's sourspot power (or lack of it) isn't that big of an issue imo. If anything it gives him more combo potential, but I don't know the character well enough to say that for certain.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Understandable really, Roy does not have a hard time getting guaranteed set ups into sweetspots with Jab>Bair and DED set ups.

Although outside of those two it can be frustrating hoping for a strong hit outside of guaranteed situations like ledge trapping where you can force them to be hit by the sweet spot.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Yes, I'm biased, but why shouldn't they be top tier just because they're easier? Being easy or basic is not grounds for being bad. That's just how the balance fell this time.

And, how exactly are my views ignorant? It's general consensus she's better, and I'm just annoyed by people who just think Marth has a right to be better for some reason or another, or insist that he will be better eventually with no proof to back them up other than "he's more complex and will develop, trust me. Look at that potential.." Whether that be because he came first or he's harder as an abundance of skill to pull off does not always correlate to better. Not everyone needs to be Snake.

Come on, I'm pretty sure you know there's a lot of things wrong when a character that only requires basic fundamentals is top tier. For one it goes against the human conception of what is fair and right, you might not think this should matter, but it does. Moreover, it will eventually force top players to have said characters as a pocket leading to overrepresentation, viewers will hate this and the games scene will suffer. We started seeing this with S4 Cloud, but then Bayo came along and everyone forgot about Cloud because she was a million times worse. You ignore these very intuitive fact, hence you're ignorant. I mean Marth being worse than Lucine IS lame by definition, there's no way around it.

Also I'm all with you on the people thinking Marth will eventually develop being deluded. That's not gonna happen. People will not eventually learn to space his move perfectly, the people who propose this might happen don't know what they are talking about and likely haven't tried playing Marth very much. DelugeFGC also made a great point about DI in regards to this.

Absolutely, Chrom's Jab is overall better than Roy's considering he can kill from a safe spaced quick poke while Roy needs to get in shield grab range to try his.


Also, the D3 clip isn't an isolated incident. That scenario (although not as extreme as 200%) happens in a ton of Roy matches even from his higher level players.

Chrom also has his very oppressive Ftilt which kills near the ledge and is so fast that you can throw it out and whiff and still have time to act a lot of the time. To me these things kinda make up for him not having Roy's crazy side-b. I suspect that if a statistical analysis was made on which of the two killed earlier on average Chrom would come out on top.

 

[bc1910]

Chrom's jab > Roy.

All you need to know.

Do you think Chrom with the Marcina Up B would be the best swordie in the game?

It’d be a great OOS and recovery option for the character with the otherwise strongest sword moveset.

On the other hand, Lucina’s insane Fair and Fsmash might be enough to give her the edge regardless.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

At that percentage any decently powered attack would had killed D3 or launched him in a position he can't easily recover from and would had been subject to an easier edge guard, and if it was Chrom is mostly definitely would had killed. I think that it more so the point being made is that Roy not netting that kill off that Fair gives D3 another chance at winning neutral provided he can reset it and win the game over Chrom who would had outright won the game in that situation. Roy not having consistent power in his blade like Chrom can very much be an issue at the same time a blessing.

When comparing the two I think that you have to look on a MU by MU basis. How much does sour spots affect this MU over consistent in the other MU. How costly is having less shield safety at distance in relation to having an easier time off stage? And so on.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Come on, I'm pretty sure you know there's a lot of things wrong when a character that only requires basic fundamentals is top tier. For one it goes against the human conception of what is fair and right, you might not think this should matter, but it does. Moreover, it will eventually force top players to have said characters as a pocket leading to overrepresentation, viewers will hate this and the games scene will suffer. We started seeing this with S4 Cloud, but then Bayo came along and everyone forgot about Cloud because she was a million times worse. You ignore these very intuitive fact, hence you're ignorant. I mean Marth being worse than Lucine IS lame by definition, there's no way around it.

Also I'm all with you on the people thinking Marth will eventually develop being deluded. That's not gonna happen. People will not eventually learn to space his move perfectly, the people who propose this might happen don't know what they are talking about and likely haven't tried playing Marth very much. DelugeFGC also made a great point about DI in regards to this.



Chrom also has his very oppressive Ftilt which kills near the ledge and is so fast that you can throw it out and whiff and still have time to act a lot of the time. To me these things kinda make up for him not having Roy's crazy side-b. I suspect that if a statistical analysis was made on which of the two killed earlier on average Chrom would come out on top.

This actually exist, at least for aerials. You can see the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaAiDPmlt6k

 

[Minordeth]

I feel like I just posted about this.

Chrom’s ground game is safer and just straight better than Roy’s.

Roy’s sweet and sour spot shield safety difference may be one frame in the air, but on the ground it can be 3-4 frames depending on the move.

Chrom’s Ftilt can hit above BF platforms, it two frames, and kills.

Jab is stupid. It’s relatively safe and leads into a kill confirm.

Dtilt is a dumb strong conditioning tool and hilariously safe.

Roy’s sour spot absolutely comes into play when glancing blows are more likely in a given match-up. And by that, I mean small characters can be hard to hit.

There is a reason most MU notes against Chrom boil down to “be extremely careful onstage, because he is a nightmare. Thank god we body him offstage. 55:45”

Chrom is a tough character to play at low and mid level, but his strengths keep him ahead of Roy in results.

Fun fact: via the TTS, Roy is 21st in results and Chrom is 19th. Combine the two and Chroy is ahead of Inkling and right behind Pichu at 379.75 points and 8th overall.

More fun facts: Marcina would combine #6 Lucina’s 426.5 points with #57 Marth’s 27.5 points to make #4 Marcina with 454 points.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do you think Chrom with the Marcina Up B would be the best swordie in the game?

It’d be a great OOS and recovery option for the character with the otherwise strongest sword moveset.

On the other hand, Lucina’s insane Fair and Fsmash might be enough to give her the edge regardless.

Definitely.

At least the most well rounded without any flaws to truly speak of. Right now Chrom off stage is the only thing keeping him in check.

 

[Hippieslayer]

This actually exist, at least for aerials. You can see the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaAiDPmlt6k

With statistical analysis I mean an analysis on who kills earlier in practice using tournament data.

Anyway, this consensus of sorts which says that Roy is better than Chrom needs to stop. Why does it even exist? Because a bunch of top players used him at the beginning of the game and then dropped him? Does Leffen play a role in this? Leffen is hilariously clueless when it comes to theory and his Roy has never been impressive, I've stated this before but his friggin' chrom is obviously better.

On a completely different topic: Did anyone read the analysis about top player kills I posted a link to earlier? It was really good stuff. MKleo's stats were insane and really set him apart from Zackray and Nairo. They weren't even close to his level. The stats were from MKleo using Ike and Lucina only.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Chrom's jab > Roy.

All you need to know.

Only because the lack of sourspot means people hanging at the ledge for too long are asking for a death sentence.

Also don't forget that despite being slighty ahead in terms of results, the only successful Chrom players in top level are Shoyo James and Mr.R, others either aren't as notable or given up on him (only top player to drop him altogether is Tweek). Main reason neither has more prominence at the highest level is because one is plagued by poor sourspots(Roy) and the other is because despite being proven otherwise, his recovery is seen as too polarizing(Chrom).

 

[Rizen]

Edit, other people already covered it. Chrom's not outclassed by Roy.

 

[ElectricBlade]

That reminded me, one of Roy's biggest issues is having a hard time hitting someone with a hard blow if they are just holding onto the ledge. It's extremely character dependent and more often than not you're going to get sour spot Ftilt (this is excluding hard read Dair and ledge trump Bair).

Chrom though?

****, he's scary.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Edit, other people already covered it. Chrom's not outclassed by Roy.

I am not saying Chrom is outclassed by Roy(he clearly isn't, his advanteges clearly show it), but the opossite isn't quite true either.

 

[Kiligar]

Bowser is the best super heavy, no doubt.

 

[Daisycakes]

No offense but under what rock have you been living that makes you believe that Marth is the best out of the 4 when both consensus and results in fact prove he's inferior to his clones in his current state.

I have been analysing a lot of matches, combed through tier lists, read guides, and spoke to labbers. I even played all four for at least 20 hours each. Marth is the best out of the four by virtue of his design and attributes. His tipper is small, but it's in the safest, most ideal position of the sword. Marth can kill you simply by poking you off of spaced tilts, and if he's a bit too close, Dancing Blade does the job with well timed hits. He thrives off of creating threat bubbles around him with his sword's reach. If you space closer to him, he can drift back thanks to his decent air speed and acceleration, and low gravity. DI'ing his sour hits at mid percents may be a thing but they force you into bad positions for follow up attacks a bit more easily than Lucina's.

On Lucina, she's functionally identical in every way besides sword damage being even. However, many tend to forget that Lucina's moves have been tuned down to compensate. None of her aerials do especially great knockback compared to the rest of the cast, and her tilts never kill at a reasonable percent no matter how good your spacing is. As a results, she often gets kills off edgeguarding, or fishing for endlag filled smash attacks/Dolphin Slash or back aerials. If she doesn't get those she's not killing you until around 150%. Especially with DI. Marth can have issues with killing aswell, but at least he has those strong tipper hits that come from his safer attacks. As the meta grows to be more defensive I think he'll be able to get kills consistently earlier, as Marcina's hitboxes don't lend too well to close combat and the tip of the sword is the safest part to poke opponents with.

Roy's problem isn't realy his sourspot. It's his lack of range, inferior framedata compard to Marth, and poor air acceleration and high gravity meaning that he has to commit to a direction when attacking airborne, making him really linear similar to characters like Little Mac. His recovery is also lacking.

As for Roy vs Chrom, Chrom's forward tilt is a point to him, as is his Up B OOS. However, Chrom's F Tilt does not hit on top of BF platforms. His U Tilt does but Roy can hit his sweetspot with it by taking a small step away from the opponent.

 

[Lacrimosa]

And again, Mr. R got pretty much rolled over with Chrom at this doubles event.
Thing went better once he switched to Roy.
I think the sourspot of Roy's sword is overvalued. Sourspots aren't necessarily a bad thing. His sourspot isn't even unsafe on hit (unlike Zelda's fair sourspot for example). It sets up combos and it is still fairly safe. And on top of that, if he hits with the sweetspot, then he hits like a truck and he doesn't struggle off-stage as much as Chrom by a very wide margin. Chrom off-stage is pretty much dead when he fight a character that can hit him out of his upB. It can also get spikes fairly easy. There's absolutely no way Roy is worse than Chrom, especially in a game where good recoveries are necessary because of the stronger focus on edgeguarding.

 

[Rizen]

And again, Mr. R got pretty much rolled over with Chrom at this doubles event.
Thing went better once he switched to Roy.
I think the sourspot of Roy's sword is overvalued. Sourspots aren't necessarily a bad thing. His sourspot isn't even unsafe on hit (unlike Zelda's fair sourspot for example). It sets up combos and it is still fairly safe. And on top of that, if he hits with the sweetspot, then he hits like a truck and he doesn't struggle off-stage as much as Chrom by a very wide margin. Chrom off-stage is pretty much dead when he fight a character that can hit him out of his upB. It can also get spikes fairly easy. There's absolutely no way Roy is worse than Chrom, especially in a game where good recoveries are necessary because of the stronger focus on edgeguarding.

Roy's recovery is still bad. It's not as bad as Chrom's but it's not a huge boost to him either. Roy and Chrom are fairly well balanced but if I had to choose one over the other it would be Chrom. Roy's sweet spots being close to him makes going for them unsafe, unlike Marth's tippers which are ideal spacing. I've seen several matches, like Leffin's Roy vs Light's Fox iirc, where Roy struggled to kill and Chrom would have won the match. Roy's sour spots are very weak.

I've played vs both as YL and the difference is enough to put Roy as even or slight advantage and Chrom as slight disadvantage. Chrom is much better than Roy at everything besides recovering.

 

[Daisycakes]

Roy's recovery is still bad. It's not as bad as Chrom's but it's not a huge boost to him either. Roy and Chrom are fairly well balanced but if I had to choose one over the other it would be Chrom. Roy's sweet spots being close to him makes going for them unsafe, unlike Marth's tippers which are ideal spacing. I've seen several matches, like Leffin's Roy vs Light's Fox iirc, where Roy struggled to kill and Chrom would have won the match. Roy's sour spots are very weak.

I've played vs both as YL and the difference is enough to put Roy as even or slight advantage and Chrom as slight disadvantage. Chrom is much better than Roy at everything besides recovering.

I doubt Roy's sours would have been the detriment, While it's true tnat they are weak, Roy's sweetspots are generous. But Roy has a short sword in general. That problem + his stiff air movement can't be solved by switching to Chrom. Switching to Marth or maybe Cloud would have been better.

As fo Mr R switching to Roy, I doubt that makes too much of a difference aside from mentality and off stage recovery ability. I have seen people switch from Peach to Daisy or vice versa and suddenly do better despite no differences in gameplay.

 

[Nebunera]

so do we agree that joker is low high tier at best

 

[Lacrimosa]

so do we agree that joker is low high tier at best

Maybe. I haven't seen much of him, yet. But it seems that his gun isn't that helpful for edgeguarding, at least that's what I saw from Flow(?) at the current Wanted (French tournament). It hits the opponent of of the recovery but they don't as much hitstun and knockback as you want. So the opponent will most likely make it back to the stage.
Otherwise, I really can't tell. One question about his recovery, though: Arsene grants him 23 (or something like that) i-frames on start-up. But can he still get two-framed when he's grabbing the ledge in that 23 frame window?

 

[Cheryl~]

Maybe. I haven't seen much of him, yet. But it seems that his gun isn't that helpful for edgeguarding, at least that's what I saw from Flow(?) at the current Wanted (French tournament). It hits the opponent of of the recovery but they don't as much hitstun and knockback as you want. So the opponent will most likely make it back to the stage.
Otherwise, I really can't tell. One question about his recovery, though: Arsene grants him 23 (or something like that) i-frames on start-up. But can he still get two-framed when he's grabbing the ledge in that 23 frame window?

I believe Joker's Arsene recovery can be 2-framed at any point of the recovery when it grabs the ledge, which is part of the reason why that move is memed so much, it's a very 2-frameable move unlike his grappling hook recovery.

 

[Lavani]

One question about his recovery, though: Arsene grants him 23 (or something like that) i-frames on start-up. But can he still get two-framed when he's grabbing the ledge in that 23 frame window?

if he grabs from below the ledge, yes. He can grab ledge before Arsene invuln ends though, so if he's able to snap high he's safe the whole way through.

 

[Hippieslayer]

And again, Mr. R got pretty much rolled over with Chrom at this doubles event.
Thing went better once he switched to Roy.
I think the sourspot of Roy's sword is overvalued. Sourspots aren't necessarily a bad thing. His sourspot isn't even unsafe on hit (unlike Zelda's fair sourspot for example). It sets up combos and it is still fairly safe. And on top of that, if he hits with the sweetspot, then he hits like a truck and he doesn't struggle off-stage as much as Chrom by a very wide margin. Chrom off-stage is pretty much dead when he fight a character that can hit him out of his upB. It can also get spikes fairly easy. There's absolutely no way Roy is worse than Chrom, especially in a game where good recoveries are necessary because of the stronger focus on edgeguarding.

It's not surprising by any means that Roy would do better in doubles in which its both insurmountably harder to avoid being forced off the stage and subjected to edgeguarding and harder to stay out of Roy's tipper range. Doesn't really say anything about singles.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I feel like we're a bit harsh on recoveries sometimes. "You can't recover free, your recovery is bad". Most recoveries in this game are designed to have vulnerabilities.

Wings of Rebellion is fine. Not perfect, but fine. Its invincibility frames are very generous and protect him from more aggressive edgeguarding, so the lack of a hitbox isn't a big deal for him. He can still be too framed but that still takes good timing from his opponent, and its not like getting 2-framed is something unique to him.

At least it can't be effortlessly gimped at low percents by a random drop down Nair, unlike his Grappling Hook.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I have been analysing a lot of matches, combed through tier lists, read guides, and spoke to labbers. I even played all four for at least 20 hours each.

Great job, now if you could also try reading the posts on the last page which prove you not only wrong, but actually way off base it'd be nice...

 

[Bobert]

People suddenly forget how bad Roy's recovery is when comparing him to Chrom. It's basically the only thing he truly has over Chrom, and it isn't even a major improvement compared to Chrom's absolutely superior normals and ledge traps. Chrom's ftilt and jab in paticular are kind of insane.

 

[DunnoBro]

There are situations Chrom's recovery is better, too. Able to threaten a suicide trade/reversal. Can go a bit deeper on edgeguards due to better vertical and a bigger recovery hitbox. Also lets him mess up some ledge traps. (Gordos, Trick shot, Banana(?)

 

[DelugeFGC]

There are situations Chrom's recovery is better, too. Able to threaten a suicide trade/reversal. Can go a bit deeper on edgeguards due to better vertical and a bigger recovery hitbox. Also lets him mess up some ledge traps. (Gordos, Trick shot, Banana(?)

In no situation would I call Chrom's Up-B a better recovery then.. well, any Up-B. It may be a decent MOVE, but it is not a good recovery.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

In no situation would I call Chrom's Up-B a better recovery then.. well, any Up-B. It may be a decent MOVE, but it is not a good recovery.

I REALLY doubt Soaring Slash is a worse recovery than aerial Rising Uppercut.

 

[Idon]

I REALLY doubt Soaring Slash is a worse recovery than aerial Rising Uppercut.

True, granted at the very least it's not a free counter to anyone with that downB.

 

[Kiligar]

Quick question guys that’s been bothering me in labbing. Do you use Shoulder Button+A for Nair or X/Y +A for Nair. Thanks, and please explain why you prefer your option.

 

[DunnoBro]

Quick question guys that’s been bothering me in labbing. Do you use Shoulder Button+A for Nair or X/Y +A for Nair. Thanks, and please explain why you prefer your option.

I use Shoulder + A. But I use Shoulder jump for everything.

In smash 4, Y/X + A was marginally but noticeably easier to SH Nair with. But in Ultimate, it's the same. And having dedicated fingers for both the Jump, and the Nair makes timing/spacing easier.

In no situation would I call Chrom's Up-B a better recovery then.. well, any Up-B. It may be a decent MOVE, but it is not a good recovery.

I mean, even just higher vertical makes it directly superior in some situations. Like on-stage confirms into spikes. (Mario uair > fair. Duck Hunt frisbee > dair)

At percents it doesn't auto-kill, Chrom could make it back whereas Roy couldn't. I'm sure there's other vacuum scenarios the other properties help too.

 

[Idon]

Quick question guys that’s been bothering me in labbing. Do you use Shoulder Button+A for Nair or X/Y +A for Nair. Thanks, and please explain why you prefer your option.

I use Y. Muscle Memory from Brawl till now mostly, but with shorthops being universally 3-frames, I can't easily time my release with a shoulder button than with my thumb pressing Y.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I jump with Z (GCN). I have X mapped to jump too but never use it, Y is grab. I've gotten intimately familiar with the timing required to NAir with the C-Stick due to the weird / wonky macro-input nature of C-Stick in Ult, so I actually usually NAir via Z + C-Stick as odd / unconventional as that is. NAir turnarounds this way are pretty useful at times. If I need to use a NAir out of a FH, delayed short hop or otherwise.. obviously I then have to use A.