Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Sheik is becoming more common, it's true. Again, I think both her and Luigi need a bit more optimization to become actual threats in the meta but they could both probably make it to that point eventually.

I just think that Meta Knight is uncommon simply because he seems to be a lot harder to play in Ultimate, and all of his Smash 4 jank was nerfed, despite receiving buffs to the rest of his kit. He still has some good things about him, he's just kind of a really odd character to play.

IDK why Lucas was never more popular in Smash 4 (and by extent, Ultimate) as I see no good reason to consider him a bad character but whatever.

I'm not sure Lucario will ever be popular but I think that he has the potential to be a better character than people are considering him to be atm. Aura is still pretty good, and his recovery travels very far, but he still has all of his drawbacks from Smash 4 in addition to his weight nerf. Not horrible, but very inconsistent.

MK wasn't too popular of a character in SSB4 either. In this game, his SSB4 jank is made harder to get (though it can still happen, surprisingly more towards the side of the stage instead of upwards). He instead got some of the hitboxes lost from Brawl back (hitboxes on SSB4 MK wasn't really good).

Lucario was also a character that was never really popular either. Representation for Lucario is relatively the same as in SSB4, which is due to his aura playstyle. Lucario in this game got his aura moves made better at lower percents (mostly thanks to his good amount of QoL buffs) and got above-average mobility buffs for him. However, he also got his aura slightly weakened at higher percents, plus being made lighter. Overall, he is made even harder to play in SSB4, so it makes sense that he is unpopular once again. Tsu- is still rocking him, so that is cool.

 

[Terotrous]

Am I the only one who likes mental Smash? Sometimes I feel like I might be. I understand why nobody (including me) was a huge fan of Brawl and Sm4sh

I was a huge fan of Smash 4 3DS prior to Cloud / Corrin / Bayo. The cast feels very distinct and yet most characters feel decently viable, and I like the idea of getting reward from throws. Sure, rage kind of sucked and rolls were too spammable but the game still always felt fun, which I feel is a bit less the case with Ult.

IMO Ultimate has better balance but a worse system than SSB4. Parrying is a poorly executed mechanic that doesn't have enough reward for the risk, airdodges with a ton of lag can lead to SDs from trying to tech, the "hold buffer" system makes this even worse and you can't react to anything.

I don't think there's actually anything in this game worse than directional airdodge having like 500F endlag. Every time I get killed by getting a directional airdodge offstage and just falling all the way to the blastzone before I regain control I can't help but think the game sucks. It even happens in pro matches and the commentators are always just like "well, that's unfortunate".

 

[Sean²]

I like the directional airdodges as-is, but the fact that when you're trying to shield or roll, and get hit before the animation goes off, it reads it as a buffered directional airdodge offstage and you just die. The endlag and fact you can only do one before landing is what makes them non-spammable and less of a 'get out of jail free' and 'your edgeguard is now my edgeguard' card like they were in Brawl and S4, which I like. I also like the ability to juke out my landing options by cancelling my aerial drift with a directional airdodge in the opposite direction. Unintentional ones due to buffer misinputs, are mildly depressing.

 

[B_Burg]

When multiple posts about Snake counters comes up and Mega Man doesn't warrant a mention smh

I was gonna say something about this, but I think I'm still too full of sass/salt over the whole thing to comment in an unbiased kinda way.

Hate to derail this nerf culture talk, but I found something that could spark some new interesting discussion;
View attachment 217338
Thoughts?

This however I find interesting.

Labeling Mega Man as a pure Zoning character seems a little odd to me, but at the same time I feel like I can't completely disagree with where he stands compared to other characters on the chart. That said I think the chart is a bit... I dunno, off I guess? I'm probably overthinking it as it seems like a sort of 'basic' or 'simplified' sorta thing.

I feel like when people talk about zoning characters in this game they think primarily about 'keep away' characters. Maybe that's more what the 'turtle' section means, which is why Mega Man is outside of it. Mega is very unique in this game, a sort of aggro projectile character as others have said before. He has better projectiles than close range options for sure, but the range of those projectiles and the versatility of those close range options make it tricky to stay too far away. Dipping in and out of range depending on the opponents play style, character, etc. is really important to the character. Almost like a pseudo-dynamic character. But when compared to the 'dynamic' characters in the chart, he certainly doesn't have the wide range. He could also sorta fit in to the 'hit and run' section here too I feel.

Long and short, I think he's a really interesting character in this game who could fit in a number of the sections of this chart while also understanding why they would put him where they did.

 

[DunnoBro]

MK wasn't too popular of a character in SSB4 either. In this game, his SSB4 jank is made harder to get (though it can still happen, surprisingly more towards the side of the stage instead of upwards). He instead got some of the hitboxes lost from Brawl back (hitboxes on SSB4 MK wasn't really good).

Lucario was also a character that was never really popular either. Representation for Lucario is relatively the same as in SSB4, which is due to his aura playstyle. Lucario in this game got his aura moves made better at lower percents (mostly thanks to his good amount of QoL buffs) and got above-average mobility buffs for him. However, he also got his aura slightly weakened at higher percents, plus being made lighter. Overall, he is made even harder to play in SSB4, so it makes sense that he is unpopular once again. Tsu- is still rocking him, so that is cool.

Didn't he also get some aura confirms removed in early ultimate patches?

 

[Hippieslayer]

What would you guys say WFT's weaknesses are? A lot of people say the neutral isn't very good, but I'd argue that the two projectiles+nair being The God makes her neutral at least serviceable?

I'm thinkin Turnip Throw Speed/Power.

In matchups they're not much of a factor offstage, Peach looks very fine. But in others, she gets a LOT Of free, low committal kills.

Low-Float Fair also probably shouldn't cover EVERY ledge option. (Like, it even covers roll from behind her. Why?) The hitbox behind her should be removed.

As for Snake, there's honestly a lot of routes you could go about nerfing him.

The most conservative one would be a recovery nerf. Distance, mechanic change, etc. Overall, I think the biggest problem with him is the disadvantage state.

The 'Snake Can't Land' meme needs to die. People said the same thing with Smash 4 Bayo.

While yes, they have to go through a flowchart to land; They also mitigate the potential punishes and threaten potent reversals, and even retain the ability to advance their gamestate from the disadvantage position.

This is why both tended to live to such insane percents despite their supposed landing weaknesses.

In Snake's Case, it's recovering high. And feinting going instage or offstage while dropping explosives to deny ledge/landing traps.

Yea, Frame 5 auto-crossup Dash Attack which punishes people for DARING to ever jump away from a field of explosives is dumb. Frame 6 utilt that's stronger and bigger than mario's frame 9 upsmash is dumb. Auto-edgeguards in Nikita are dumb. Pseudo-Kill throws with downthrow are dumb.

But the fact that you need to go through an extensive flowchart just to GET to snake, then ANOTHER extensive flowchart to catch his landing is just not fun for anyone. Not the players, not the viewers.

And while I'm sure some can, and will argue none of these are inherently 'broken' (Like they did with smash 4 Bayo) It can definitely be more efficiently argued to be unfun and toxic for the game.

Regarding Snake I'd Nerf the damage and hitstun done by grenades when they are blown up by attacks, and I would Nerf Nikita by making it Always knock People upward thus not making it useful to kill with offstage. Finally I would give utilt a LOT more endlag, so that Snakes can't spam or bait with it.

Nerfing His recovery would just be lame. It would greatly benefit those characters which are mobile and have strong edgeguarding. Those chars tend to already be high and top tiers which dont struggling that Hard vs snake anyway. He would Still invalidate a bunch of other chars.

Also super polarized characters with Huge weaknesses and Huge strengths are just lame and boring in general. Look at Ganon or Little Mac. Its not fin for anyone when they die for free off stage.

 

[Lacrimosa]

IM NICE AS HELL AT THIS GAME, ME GODLIKE, PIKACHU BUSTED PIKACHU BUSTED! IM NICE!
-Esam

this pretty much sums it up

ESAM is pretty much at the lower end of what I'd call a top-player. He can be pretty good but he's eliminated pretty early. Therefore I also don't think Pikachu is nearly at top-tier level and I'd even say Pichu ain't making the cut anymore since VoiD has also fallen off quite a bit. I don't know about the Japanese scene and Pichu, though.

Btw. something about Bayonetta:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Now, obviously you will laugh at the end but now imagine these moves would work properly. i don't think anybody would want that as it would make the character busted af again. So I think Bayonetta is a kinda broken character in concept. Either the moves don't work at all but if they work then they would be overpowered again.

 

[KirbySquad101]

ESAM is pretty much at the lower end of what I'd call a top-player. He can be pretty good but he's eliminated pretty early. Therefore I also don't think Pikachu is nearly at top-tier level and I'd even say Pichu ain't making the cut anymore since VoiD has also fallen off quite a bit. I don't know about the Japanese scene and Pichu, though.

Btw. something about Bayonetta:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Now, obviously you will laugh at the end but now imagine these moves would work properly. i don't think anybody would want that as it would make the character busted af again. So I think Bayonetta is a kinda broken character in concept. Either the moves don't work at all but if they work then they would be overpowered again.

Dabuz actually mentioned this about Bayonetta when placing her on his tier list; he felt that if everything about Bayonetta worked consistently, then he would've easily considered a high tier character. Personally, I feel like what Bayonetta can pull off should be way more consistent for the sake of making the character feel more finished, or at the very least, less frustrating to play as. If her combo potential does need to be nerfed as a result of it, so be it.

On the subject of VoiD, from the looks of it, he's gone back to mostly using Sheik now, though he sometimes uses Pichu on occasion; that doesn't bode too well for the little guy, but he does have other strong reps in the form of Nakat, Tachyon, and Tyroy.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Dabuz actually mentioned this about Bayonetta when placing her on his tier list; he felt that if everything about Bayonetta worked consistently, then he would've easily considered a high tier character. Personally, I feel like what Bayonetta can pull off should be way more consistent for the sake of making the character feel more finished, or at the very least, less frustrating to play as. If her combo potential does need to be nerfed as a result of it, so be it.

On the subject of VoiD, from the looks of it, he's gone back to mostly using Sheik now, though he sometimes uses Pichu on occasion; that doesn't bode too well for the little guy, but he does have other strong reps in the form of Nakat, Tachyon, and Tyroy.

I'm not surprised that Void is changing characters because of how easy it is to kill Pichu with one good read. It must be incredibly stressful to play a character that gets to kill percent at 60.

 

[Cheryl~]

Dabuz actually mentioned this about Bayonetta when placing her on his tier list; he felt that if everything about Bayonetta worked consistently, then he would've easily considered a high tier character. Personally, I feel like what Bayonetta can pull off should be way more consistent for the sake of making the character feel more finished, or at the very least, less frustrating to play as. If her combo potential does need to be nerfed as a result of it, so be it.

On the subject of VoiD, from the looks of it, he's gone back to mostly using Sheik now, though he sometimes uses Pichu on occasion; that doesn't bode too well for the little guy, but he does have other strong reps in the form of Nakat, Tachyon, and Tyroy.

I wouldn't quite say he's switching from Pichu to Sheik. Yes, he's been mostly using Sheik on his streams with a bit of Pichu and Joker in the mix but that's probably because Sheik is a character with a ton of combo potential and one that will take quite a bit of labbing to optimize to a level viable at big tournaments. His Pichu is already refined from months of using it so it makes sense that he's trying to optimize Sheik when he hasn't used her in a long time. I'd still say it's a safe bet that you'll see VoiD's Pichu more in tournament than Sheik unless he's that confident about the character.

 

[KakuCP9]

Didn't he also get some aura confirms removed in early ultimate patches?

Sort of. The hitlag of AS was lowered making it difficult to confirm into stuff like bair and Usmash since that's where most of the frame advantage comes from. Granted there's a couple of other confirms like ASC->jump cancel into another ASC-> jump cancel into bair (make sure you have a double jump), ASC->shield cancel into utilt->uair and sometimes ASC->shield cancel into force palm that make the hitlag change hurt less but its still wack af.

 

[uhmuzing]

I like the nerfs to Snake Hippieslayer suggested (as a crystal-wearing hippie myself I'm fairly intimidated by your Cartman-esque name tho) minus utilt changes, simply because the easy utilt-ity feels integral to his character. It could be easier to punish on block but that's all I think is needed if grenades and Nikita are toned down some too.

I hope VoiD uses Sheik primarily in future tbh. I think tbh that while Pichu is stressful to play being always in kill-percent, the guy seems to be drawn to playing stressful characters as long as he was playing Sheik when going Bayos from all angles. I was stressed constantly watching him play in late late era Smash 4, and of course it payed off seeing finally win against all odds. Not that Sheik wasn't stupid good in Smash 4 but I felt like it was such a losing MU against Bayo despite what others thought because she had to constantly throw out hitboxes in danger of being WT'd

 

[Rizen]

I've seen Void play Sheik and Wadi play WFT but despite the buffs neither seem better than mid-tier. I could be wrong, IDK much about them. It looks like the buffed characters from the patch () got some good quality of life buffs but not enough to breakout of their tiers. Void seems better off with Pichu/Wolf and Wadi with ROB.

Speaking of our robot buddy had a good showing at Thundersmash. He's definitely looking like a high tier. Great projectiles for damage, big hitboxes, scary offstage game... ROB's got some good stuff even vs top tiers.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I wouldn't quite say he's switching from Pichu to Sheik. Yes, he's been mostly using Sheik on his streams with a bit of Pichu and Joker in the mix but that's probably because Sheik is a character with a ton of combo potential and one that will take quite a bit of labbing to optimize to a level viable at big tournaments. His Pichu is already refined from months of using it so it makes sense that he's trying to optimize Sheik when he hasn't used her in a long time. I'd still say it's a safe bet that you'll see VoiD's Pichu more in tournament than Sheik unless he's that confident about the character.

I could be wrong, but I think VoiD mostly went Sheik during Thunder Smash, and only switched after he lost a game with her against K9SBruce. And while Thunder Smash isn't very big of tournament, it still had a hefty prize for $28,000.

I've seen Void play Sheik and Wadi play WFT but despite the buffs neither seem better than mid-tier. I could be wrong, IDK much about them. It looks like the buffed characters from the patch () got some good quality of life buffs but not enough to breakout of their tiers. Void seems better off with Pichu/Wolf and Wadi with ROB.

Speaking of our robot buddy had a good showing at Thundersmash. He's definitely looking like a high tier. Great projectiles for damage, big hitboxes, scary offstage game... ROB's got some good stuff even vs top tiers.

Damn, doesn't even get a mention in terms of characters that were buffed lol.

That said, WaDi has been doing much better lately with , and it shows at Thunder Smash. In particular, his showcasing against Dabuz could hint on the possible thought that R.O.B. may be a tough matchup for Olimar.

Zackaray also had some really good performances with him in the short period of time he used him as well.

 

[blackghost]

Btw. something about Bayonetta:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Now, obviously you will laugh at the end but now imagine these moves would work properly. i don't think anybody would want that as it would make the character busted af again. So I think Bayonetta is a kinda broken character in concept. Either the moves don't work at all but if they work then they would be overpowered again.

even if bayo moves connected properly she'd still not be anything above mid tier in this game.
frame data hilariously bad.
kill potential awful.
top tier is full of awful MU. Bayonetta loses at character select to pichu, pikachu, and snake. not to mention Lucina and olimar also being terrible.
she is still easy to sdi (unless you are literally ridely) and her recovery is an easy spike for elite characters in this game.

she is not a broken character in concept she is a combo character. she still has her awful neutral, terrible counter, and smash attacks that clank with normals. making her moves connect isnt going to fix her other issues. in order to do combos like this and better you need execution that is beyond most of the cast witch twist triple jump went from flashy combo choices in 4 to downright required in ultimate. not to mention this has to be done offstage to have a chance to kill under 160 percent. messing up a combo means bayo dies. its more than a fair trade. she literally must have these air combos it is her identity from her source games and thats what smash is all about.

ya'll seriously need to get this smash 4 ptsd addressed. the fear mongering is dumb "but if she worked properly she'd kill this game." **** off.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ya'll seriously need to get this smash 4 ptsd addressed. the fear mongering is dumb "but if she worked properly she'd kill this game." **** off.

Bro.

Nobody is saying what you're thinking.

Chill. You may have more smash 4 PTSD than the people you're accusing. A lot of bitterness and disdain here. Play someone else other than bayo if you can't help but think about what happened to her.

Even better, You may want to take a break from smash and play another game. See me on fightcade or something (samurai shodown ii, cyberbots, etc, whatever).

 

[DunnoBro]

In that Clip, Ridley was clearly behind Bayonetta. And it would've been a suicide stock regardless. Not a great example of 'not functioning.'

Her damage output and disadvantage state are still absurd. And her gamestate at low to high percent is perfectly fine. It's just she struggles a bit too much for kills, I'd say.

Tweaking her ledge trap options (Dair, Fthrow/Dthrow, etc) Is probably the way go about giving her consistency without totally reviving the witch. Even Witch timing an aggressive return to just fthrow them at 140%~ (as opposed to the current 160~) seems fair to me.

Sheik, ZSS, and the Pikas get the best of both worlds due to their ability to return to ledge instantly after going for an edgeguard. Bayonetta can do this too, but pretty much just goes super hard on the edgeguard since her ledge trapping options kinda blow.

Overall though. I'm of the opinion characters who consistently generate advantage from the disadvantage state shouldn't be good characters. (Snake, Bayo, Smash 4 Pacman, Smash 4 Ryu.) But that's a separate discussion.

 

[Shaya]

Her entire moveset (with which bayo players focus on, at the least) still revolves around sending you next to either the horizontal or (a lot less than s4) vertical blast zones.
At close to any %.

And then we get our 9000th twitter clip showing a completely unique to bayo capability, followed by fair not stringing together and resulting in an SD or fair stringing together but bayo dying first.
Bayo without the any% death of witch time, nor rage witch twist does deserve the respect of re-evaluation - these two things are what made her "broken" (well, I'll also never forget fair-1). But this doesn't absolve her of feasibly having an unhealthy design for a fighter in a Smash game.

So, the notion "must have these air combos" = She can kill you at close to any % with a frame 8 start up move that has a third of a stage length in range.

The MAIN MAIN problem here is the at close to any % part. Bayo catching you near the ledge and double kicking you next to the blast zone is cool/fine, but I think it would be unsavory for that to be her entire game-plan (and if it even remotely was possible it would be the entire game plan of bayo players, shame I can't be proven wrong or right [yet]).

Would she be broken undeniable top 1 if she could do this reliably? Probably not! I accept that match up difficulties would be genuine - super borked mid ranged tools are rife in this game, and playing to mitigate Bayo side-b near stage ledges might be unappetizing as a player, but is a reasonable "privilege" for a [near] top tier character to have.


But going by what Tweek recently showed (https://twitter.com/TweekSsb/status/1126019700146745345), I would hazard a guess that instead of the second abk, going for d-abk places both bayo and the opponent in a better spot for covering a returning to the stage and forward air linking/comboing more reliably.
That would be QUITE DIFFICULT to input (and time) in comparison and a mess up would get you killed - HILARIOUSLY! Bayo hate won't last for long if only 1/10th of her games she didn't SD trying to kill you in such a comedic fashion; people really do appreciate that [:joy:].

I don't like feeling vibes of "'we already completely figured out this entire character since week 1 and the only option is to fiend for buffs" and/or "being at significant risk for an almost-any-% blastzone carry isn't okay" and/or "wait, my opponent has REAL interactivity while I'm still in an amazingly strong advantaged position? that's not fair! they need to die!" while reading arguments from Bayo-proponents.
But I do.
I think subduing the wider community of "Bayo-PTSD" would go a lot more smoother if the tone shifted, reconciling on the real issues of her design beyond the S4-BS and if her players actually took thoughts to heart instead of frequent retorts of "you don't understand bayo, you know nothing JON SNOW!!!" (p.s. this isn't just to harp on you personally blackghost - the diaspora of Bayos in various character discords are fragrantly skewing my perspective too).
On the non-Bayo side of things, I tend to only see the stupid memery on twitter.

Ftilt, jab and the like working properly is one thing I doubt anyone's arguing against to be fixed. But Bayo (nor anyone) deserves near-guaranteed death combos from one of the best moves in the game (Bayo's side-b is still one of the best moves in this game). SDI "mitigating" the odds or making it more difficult for a bayo player to do a genuine death combo still doesn't make it reasonable.

But as there are some arguably unreasonable things existing in top tier, again, it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world.
Reverse FF Up Air into Thunder from Pichu off stage is a strong comparison.

 

[blackghost]

The MAIN MAIN problem here is the at close to any % part. Bayo catching you near the ledge and double kicking you next to the blast zone is cool/fine, but I think it would be unsavory for that to be her entire game-plan (and if it even remotely was possible it would be the entire game plan of bayo players, shame I can't be proven wrong or right [yet]).

just want to focus on this part. great post. bets ive seen in awhile. but the thing is her gameplan will always be based on comboing towards the blastzones. because her smash attacks are awful due to clanking and having a lower charge multiplierat 1.2 (1.1 in witch time) than the rest of the cast at 1.4. next options bayo player considered was using witch time but then it became apparent how bad the counter is. relying or hoping to land a witchtime is hopeful at best.

rencently, it was also figured out how the game determines witch time duration. havent had time to fuly read but it is pretty telling: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cEg4gKeRbwL_teRthOnmH-E3Rs_wXa66HNOFkxYkBaA/edit?usp=sharing
so bayo players moved full circle back to combo game. her gameplan is very much locked into comboing off the side. her gameplan is not flexible. name of the game is taking stocks and she's horrible at best at it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just looking at that chart above...

Why does Brawler have such a bonkers looking counter, at least in terms of frame data? O_o "Hi I'd like to have 5 frames of start up and only 20ish frames of cooldown instead of the standard 30-40ish frames, with a duration that's only slightly shorter than average." That's borderline something you could work into a regular gameplan.

Also why is Ike's so bad, particularly considering it has the same knock back multiplier as the other standard FE counters? And why is Shulk's so good outside of the reducing duration with spamming?

 

[Game7a1]

Just looking at that chart above...

Why does Brawler have such a bonkers looking counter, at least in terms of frame data? O_o "Hi I'd like to have 5 frames of start up and only 20ish frames of cooldown instead of the standard 30-40ish frames, with a duration that's only slightly shorter than average." That's borderline something you could work into a regular gameplan.

Brawler's Counter is a counter throw (as its name suggests). It really only works up-close (meaning it can whiff to disjoints) and loses to projectiles. So it's not all that great.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Brawler's Counter is a counter throw (as its name suggests). It really only works up-close (meaning it can whiff to disjoints) and loses to projectiles. So it's not all that great.

But still, that cooldown though more than makes up for it. I've used it so much in my matches and I don't get punished nearly as often as other counters if I whiff it.

 

[Terotrous]

I agree that I think Bayo is probably a fundamentally unhealthy design for the game. The problem is that she simply doesn't care about the core gameplay of smash, "build up damage and then land a kill move to close out a stock", her combos are designed to carry you all the way to the blastzone, which will unavoidably kill you regardless of what percent you're at. I simply don't think there's any way this can exist in Smash and not be super busted.

I feel she should probably be reworked into one of two gameplans:

- She has long combos which build percent easily but don't kill at any reasonable percent. She has to get a good read with a smash attack or edgeguard to get a kill.
or
- She has lesser combos that lead into moderately strong kill moves. These kill you at moderate percents, but she still has to engage in neutral to get you to kill percent.

Either is fundamentally much easier to balance because it falls within the existing framework of how a Smash character works.

 

[Minordeth]

I thought general consensus after that was that Roy was better now that they took away one of Chrom's most effect tools? I don't know, with Lucina taking up so much attention, Roy and Chrom don't seem to be hot topics for discussion.

Chrom still has Chromicide. It's not as hilarious as it was pre-nerf, but it's an excellent tool if you are a stock above and want to close a game out quickly, as Fair combos into Up-B.

As for Roy and Chrom:

The general consensus seems to be that one is better than the other... depending on the MU. It's also not unusual for people to play either one exclusively, rather than go back and forth.

I'm not going to go into things that I think this board already knows. Roy hits harder up close, Chrom does consistent damage. Roy has a better horizontal recovery making his options more flexible, Chrom can do the Chrombo.

Now, let's go into some finer details:

For Roy:
Due to his sour spot, Roy's (now functional!) DED becomes a legit killing option at mid-percents. It becomes worth it to space maximally, as the reduced knockback on the initial three hits feeds opponents into the final hit, which will always be a sweetspot. It can be comboed into from a few options and can net kills extremely early, even on heavier characters like Captain Falcon.

The penalty for misspacing and getting a weak hit is somewhat offset by Blazer becoming a potent OOS option with super armor on frame 4, despite the hitbox coming out frame 9.

Roy's combo game is extensive, due to his mechanics, allowing some flexibility, but requires a bit more in-depth knowledge.

For Chrom:
Chrom trades some of that explosive (ha!) kill power for a few things:

1. His ground game is better, flat out. In the air, the difference in shield safety between Roy and Chrom is about 1 frame. On the ground, though, the difference between Roy's sour spot and sweet spot is about 3-4 frames of shield safety. So, at max distance, Chrom is about 1 frame less safe than Roy is at his sweetspot.

If Roy wants better shield safety, he needs to be closer, which then opens him to faster OOS from his opponents.

2. Chrom also trades some edge guarding ability for top 5 ledge trapping. Why?

With the removal of a sour-spot, Ftilt and Uair become almost completely different moves. Uair alone makes Chrom's juggle game extremely potent, and combined with Ftilt's ability to two-frame and kill, and you have a monster at the ledge.

In general, Chrom is better on stage, but Roy gets to make it back more easily.

Finally, a note about an underutilized tech: Wavedashing/landing. Yes, I'm serious.

Shoyo James tends to exploit this, as Chrom benefits from wavedashing/landing to microspace/bait options from opponents more than most characters. His fall and aerial speed are fairly high, and although he incurs almost a third of a second of lag from a wave-dash back, whiffed moves in Ultimate are far more dangerous than moves on shield, and forcing a whiff as Chrom ends stocks, as Nairo experienced during his set with James during Suplex City.

So, why don't other swordies use it more? Aerial and fall speed. Lucina and Marth don't fall nearly as fast as Chrom, and their air speed is decidedly middle of the pack, so their ability to juke opponents out with movement alone is somewhat more predictable.

Roy can't take quite as much advantage either, as the wavedash back puts him in sour-spot range, and a closer wavedash back may not force a whiff.

Fun fact: You know which character also likely benefits a lot from wavedash back-whiff punishing? Wolf.

Just looking at that chart above...

Why does Brawler have such a bonkers looking counter, at least in terms of frame data? O_o "Hi I'd like to have 5 frames of start up and only 20ish frames of cooldown instead of the standard 30-40ish frames, with a duration that's only slightly shorter than average." That's borderline something you could work into a regular gameplan.

Also why is Ike's so bad, particularly considering it has the same knock back multiplier as the other standard FE counters? And why is Shulk's so good outside of the reducing duration with spamming?

For Brawler, as far as I know, the active hitbox of the counter is on his upper half, so it's very very specific in terms of use.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

- She has long combos which build percent easily but don't kill at any reasonable percent. She has to get a good read with a smash attack or edgeguard to get a kill.

This is essentially her gameplan now. Her combos are still good and she still can get good edge guards off but that's it. She flat out cannot kill without using her pretty subpar smash attacks, her Bair or those edge guards. She doesn't have the neutral game to actually set up for those reads that would allow her to get smash attacks off if the opponent doesn't commit to anything because they don't have to commit to anything against Bayo, she has no way of actually threatening shield that isn't linearly spamming Bair on it.

 

[Hippieslayer]

just want to focus on this part. great post. bets ive seen in awhile. but the thing is her gameplan will always be based on comboing towards the blastzones. because her smash attacks are awful due to clanking and having a lower charge multiplierat 1.2 (1.1 in witch time) than the rest of the cast at 1.4.

I don't get this. Why? What if her smash attacks were buffed instead? If they No longer clashed and the multiplier was fixed. Since her design is poor the way it is, what is there to lose by buffing against that design?

To me it seems like people get tunnel vision when talking about her when they want the things that made her the best and by far most hated s4 character. Not saying her smash attacks should be buffed, that was just an example I came Up with quickly to illustrate my point.

Moreover, about the game mechanics, airdodging, parrying and such: Huge let down. Easy to see the problems even on paper, for such an experienced team of developers to come up with something so poorly worked out there is no excuse. Its a shame it wasnt really possible to call them out in it when the game was released. If I were to review the game I'd make a noticeable subtraction from the score because of the poorly done game mechanics.

All of them function poorly in conjunction with the 10 frame buffer, which I assume is built into the switch, and which they seem to have been completely unaware of in terms of its impact.

Parrying seems to be something they lifted straight out of traditional fighters, games which are far more linear and thus predictable. Games in which every character doesn't have access to multihits. I mean jesus didnt they know smash has jabs for One? Risk/reward is f'ed Up. The mechanic doesnt suit smash, it doesnt suit Nintendo laggy online play and it doesnt suit the huge buffering window and it makes projectiles stronger than they were arguably intended to be, thereby going against the general design philosophy of the game. Sheer incompetence. Bring back powershielding plz.

Regarding airdodges a lot has been Said already, yeah the endlag is way overdone, and the whole fall a set distance before you can act is incredibly stupid. It furthermore punishes characters with poor recoveries as if though that was needed. This fact doesn't seem to have been considering at all. Characters with superb recoveries get to Enjoy liberal useage off airdodging offstage on top of their recoveries while those with mediocre to poor get to Enjoy suiciding occasionally due to buffering. GJ Sakurai. Everything they wanted to achieve with airdodges changes couldve been done with like half the ending lag and no fall distance bs.

Worst of all is hos they obviously Still dont get this going by patches. And how People are more concerned about char balance than basic game mechanics doesnt help.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Chrom still has Chromicide. It's not as hilarious as it was pre-nerf, but it's an excellent tool if you are a stock above and want to close a game out quickly, as Fair combos into Up-B.

As for Roy and Chrom:

The general consensus seems to be that one is better than the other... depending on the MU. It's also not unusual for people to play either one exclusively, rather than go back and forth.

I'm not going to go into things that I think this board already knows. Roy hits harder up close, Chrom does consistent damage. Roy has a better horizontal recovery making his options more flexible, Chrom can do the Chrombo.

Now, let's go into some finer details:

For Roy:
Due to his sour spot, Roy's (now functional!) DED becomes a legit killing option at mid-percents. It becomes worth it to space maximally, as the reduced knockback on the initial three hits feeds opponents into the final hit, which will always be a sweetspot. It can be comboed into from a few options and can net kills extremely early, even on heavier characters like Captain Falcon.

The penalty for misspacing and getting a weak hit is somewhat offset by Blazer becoming a potent OOS option with super armor on frame 4, despite the hitbox coming out frame 9.

Roy's combo game is extensive, due to his mechanics, allowing some flexibility, but requires a bit more in-depth knowledge.

For Chrom:
Chrom trades some of that explosive (ha!) kill power for a few things:

1. His ground game is better, flat out. In the air, the difference in shield safety between Roy and Chrom is about 1 frame. On the ground, though, the difference between Roy's sour spot and sweet spot is about 3-4 frames of shield safety. So, at max distance, Chrom is about 1 frame less safe than Roy is at his sweetspot.

If Roy wants better shield safety, he needs to be closer, which then opens him to faster OOS from his opponents.

2. Chrom also trades some edge guarding ability for top 5 ledge trapping. Why?

With the removal of a sour-spot, Ftilt and Uair become almost completely different moves. Uair alone makes Chrom's juggle game extremely potent, and combined with Ftilt's ability to two-frame and kill, and you have a monster at the ledge.

In general, Chrom is better on stage, but Roy gets to make it back more easily.

Finally, a note about an underutilized tech: Wavedashing/landing. Yes, I'm serious.

Shoyo James tends to exploit this, as Chrom benefits from wavedashing/landing to microspace/bait options from opponents more than most characters. His fall and aerial speed are fairly high, and although he incurs almost a third of a second of lag from a wave-dash back, whiffed moves in Ultimate are far more dangerous than moves on shield, and forcing a whiff as Chrom ends stocks, as Nairo experienced during his set with James during Suplex City.

So, why don't other swordies use it more? Aerial and fall speed. Lucina and Marth don't fall nearly as fast as Chrom, and their air speed is decidedly middle of the pack, so their ability to juke opponents out with movement alone is somewhat more predictable.

Roy can't take quite as much advantage either, as the wavedash back puts him in sour-spot range, and a closer wavedash back may not force a whiff.

Fun fact: You know which character also likely benefits a lot from wavedash back-whiff punishing? Wolf.




For Brawler, as far as I know, the active hitbox of the counter is on his upper half, so it's very very specific in terms of use.

In my experience Cloud can also get a fair bit out of his wavedash, especially if he's carrying limit. Melee results? Lord no, but it IS a useful spacing tool and a potential means to force a WP situation. With limit, I'd go as far as to say Cloud actually has one of the most viable wavedashes in the game and his waveland can be pretty useful too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dabuz actually mentioned this about Bayonetta when placing her on his tier list; he felt that if everything about Bayonetta worked consistently, then he would've easily considered a high tier character. Personally, I feel like what Bayonetta can pull off should be way more consistent for the sake of making the character feel more finished, or at the very least, less frustrating to play as. If her combo potential does need to be nerfed as a result of it, so be it.

On the subject of VoiD, from the looks of it, he's gone back to mostly using Sheik now, though he sometimes uses Pichu on occasion; that doesn't bode too well for the little guy, but he does have other strong reps in the form of Nakat, Tachyon, and Tyroy.

Bayonetta as a character concept is busted, especially so in Smash 4's engine. That's why I doubt they bothered with nerfing her too much in that game.

If they could fix Bayonetta, they should make it so that her ladders only effectively work at certain %s. Much like the Ding Dongs of DK and Bowser back in Smash 4. All other %s, the knockback should be too little, or too much for each individual hit to really connect properly. Seeing that there's way too much difference in the cast in terms of weight, size, fall speed and air speed, it might be real hard to balance this out however.

I've seen Void play Sheik and Wadi play WFT but despite the buffs neither seem better than mid-tier. I could be wrong, IDK much about them. It looks like the buffed characters from the patch () got some good quality of life buffs but not enough to breakout of their tiers. Void seems better off with Pichu/Wolf and Wadi with ROB.

Speaking of our robot buddy had a good showing at Thundersmash. He's definitely looking like a high tier. Great projectiles for damage, big hitboxes, scary offstage game... ROB's got some good stuff even vs top tiers.

I honestly doubt Diddy, Mewtwo and Corrin will ever get really popular. They where also sort of niche picks back in Smash 4 honestly. Despite Diddy being a clear S Tier, there where not too many Diddy mains, same with Brawl. The ones who did play Diddy where just.. very very effective, just look at ZeRo in Smash 4, and ADHD in Brawl. Can you name another Diddy main as effective as them spread across those games? Not really. Can you do so for characters who are just as effective as Diddy in those games? You probably could.

Mewtwo was also a little popular for a while, but at the end of the Smash 4 meta he became quite rare to see. Corrin had some niche uses as well, but since either of these 3 characters won't be as effective as their Smash 4 versions, I doubt they are gonna be used all that much honestly. It also doesn't help that each of them seemed to bust some of the previous engine a little in their favor, and that redesigns on their Smash Ultimate versions prevent such exploits, or the engine simply does.

Diddy won't be effectively used as long as he's got bad recovery as it is though. It's one of the main things holding him back, and preventing his stage control and neutral to really shine, because with just the right counter play you can easily gimp him at just about any %s if you know how to knock him off stage and destroy the Rocket Barrels. Also, dash attacks that have a bust movement beat out the Banana, because for some damn reason, some of these dash attack automatically catch the Banana. It also happens with certain Tilt attacks even... And I haven't worked out exactly why this happens. But having these things just be changed back from their unreasonable changes in Ultimate (seriously, it will also happen with other thrown items just as Turpins, Pokeballs, Bob-Ombs, everything...) - then maybe Diddy will be viable without further buffs even. If anything, he should have better boxing tools to deal with rushdown better.

Peach mains, you also have this problem with the Turpins? That people seem to catch them randomly with their dash attacks or tilts? Because am honestly perplexed why the developers thought this to be a good idea.

Also, if they change this, Turpins and Grenades need nerfs.

 

[Sean²]

I've said it elsewhere before, but I think Nintendo is terrified of Bayonetta after Smash 4 and the extremely public showing of MKLeo ladder combo-ing Plup at the E3 invitational. We're probably never gonna see her be better than mid-tier again.

Fun fact: You know which character also likely benefits a lot from wavedash back-whiff punishing? Wolf.

Can confirm, it's good to space tech rolling in with dsmash. But people are starting to learn to pick a different option if Wolf is just standing there at optimum distance.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I don't see yat what VoiD means with high-tier Shiek. He got beaten pretty clearly by K9's Wolf at Thunder Smash and that's pretty awful considering he used her all the time in Sm4sh. We'll see, but it looks like he's overestimating that character a bit too much in this game but I could be wrong.

 

[Sean²]

He went 1-1 with Sheik in that set and 1-2 with Pichu. His loss with Sheik really wasn't that bad. He whiffed a parry at one point that cost him a big chunk of damage on his last stock. He beat Lucina pretty handily with Sheik. It may just turn out to be a somewhat bad matchup for her at most. I still have hope for Sheik.

 

[ARISTOS]

To step away from patch discourse I wanted to talk about after having played them for quite a bit.

TL'DR: I still think they're fairly mediocre, but a lot of fun and I think a few tweaks could really make the character strong.

Robin benefits a lot from the "press-buttons" nature of Smash Ultimate-Levin aerials are monstrous in terms of speed, power, and reach and fair/uair in particular catch most of reactive jump OOS/jump away or landing aerial, respectively. Nair then allows you to cross up/cover potential cross ups after you've conditioned people where fair/uair will hit.

Elthunder seems to be the go-to Thunder spell, and it's a very good overall tool in locking people down. It's a lot of damage for a short charged projectile, and when off-stage it can kill pretty well (cue snipe sound). The other main Thunder spell I've found to use is Arcthunder, but that's really only after you've conditioned people to shield. The loss of Arcthunder-->grab really sucks, but it pretty much serves as the character's Shield Breaker. If you're far away, it's not as useful, but if you're up close Arcthunder on shield is an almost guaranteed break with follow-up.

The main game plan of the character seems to be using their giant threat range to push people to the edge while using Elthunder to force jumps, which Robin can easily hit with Levin. The jump out of charge buff is decent as it gives Robin a bunch of escape paths after B-reverse, but it definitely isn't Samus level of threat.

Once they're on the ledge, Arcfire becomes amazing. You can pretty much use it as a quasi-Holy Water when spaced right, and the only option people have is to roll away, which can be caught by grab. I'm not good at it yet, but distancing yourself backwards and reacting to Arcfire hit/roll away and responding with bair (which is a nuke) or grab seems crazy strong if you can get it consistently.

The real issues come into play when the opponent stays away from/plays the trapping game better than Robin, as the character can't really chase opponents and none of their spells is great for forcing approaches (and burn some of your tomes). I feel to play Robin you really have to take what comes as opposed to making your own destiny, and that might be their biggest issue. Their disadvantage, while not the worst in the game, is probably bottom 10-they pretty much always need to jump/AD/go to ledge as they have no real landing options, only b-reverse mixups. Nair helps but doesn't cover below them well.

If I were to ask for one move to be addressed, I would probably have Arcfire able to hit lower to the ground. That allows it to hit smaller characters better which would aid in overall trapping in midrange, especially since these nimble burst characters are pretty popular and v hard for the character to deal with. Arcfire also clanking sometimes and being put out is hella annoying lol.

Thoron is cool but I find that it's use is rare and you miss out not having Elthunder available.

But yeah, as long as this character exists big bodies have an insanely difficult MU-Robin bullies these characters incredibly hard.

 

[Rizen]

Also, dash attacks that have a bust movement beat out the Banana, because for some damn reason, some of these dash attack automatically catch the Banana. It also happens with certain Tilt attacks even... And I haven't worked out exactly why this happens. But having these things just be changed back from their unreasonable changes in Ultimate (seriously, it will also happen with other thrown items just as Turpins, Pokeballs, Bob-Ombs, everything...) - then maybe Diddy will be viable without further buffs even. If anything, he should have better boxing tools to deal with rushdown better.

Peach mains, you also have this problem with the Turpins? That people seem to catch them randomly with their dash attacks or tilts? Because am honestly perplexed why the developers thought this to be a good idea.

Also, if they change this, Turpins and Grenades need nerfs.

I've had Ike catch YL's bomb with a DA and kill me. It's always been a weakness of items as walling projectiles.

 

[Avokha]

To step away from patch discourse I wanted to talk about after having played them for quite a bit.

TL'DR: I still think they're fairly mediocre, but a lot of fun and I think a few tweaks could really make the character strong.

Robin benefits a lot from the "press-buttons" nature of Smash Ultimate-Levin aerials are monstrous in terms of speed, power, and reach and fair/uair in particular catch most of reactive jump OOS/jump away or landing aerial, respectively. Nair then allows you to cross up/cover potential cross ups after you've conditioned people where fair/uair will hit.

Elthunder seems to be the go-to Thunder spell, and it's a very good overall tool in locking people down. It's a lot of damage for a short charged projectile, and when off-stage it can kill pretty well (cue snipe sound). The other main Thunder spell I've found to use is Arcthunder, but that's really only after you've conditioned people to shield. The loss of Arcthunder-->grab really sucks, but it pretty much serves as the character's Shield Breaker. If you're far away, it's not as useful, but if you're up close Arcthunder on shield is an almost guaranteed break with follow-up.

The main game plan of the character seems to be using their giant threat range to push people to the edge while using Elthunder to force jumps, which Robin can easily hit with Levin. The jump out of charge buff is decent as it gives Robin a bunch of escape paths after B-reverse, but it definitely isn't Samus level of threat.

Once they're on the ledge, Arcfire becomes amazing. You can pretty much use it as a quasi-Holy Water when spaced right, and the only option people have is to roll away, which can be caught by grab. I'm not good at it yet, but distancing yourself backwards and reacting to Arcfire hit/roll away and responding with bair (which is a nuke) or grab seems crazy strong if you can get it consistently.

The real issues come into play when the opponent stays away from/plays the trapping game better than Robin, as the character can't really chase opponents and none of their spells is great for forcing approaches (and burn some of your tomes). I feel to play Robin you really have to take what comes as opposed to making your own destiny, and that might be their biggest issue. Their disadvantage, while not the worst in the game, is probably bottom 10-they pretty much always need to jump/AD/go to ledge as they have no real landing options, only b-reverse mixups. Nair helps but doesn't cover below them well.

If I were to ask for one move to be addressed, I would probably have Arcfire able to hit lower to the ground. That allows it to hit smaller characters better which would aid in overall trapping in midrange, especially since these nimble burst characters are pretty popular and v hard for the character to deal with. Arcfire also clanking sometimes and being put out is hella annoying lol.

Thoron is cool but I find that it's use is rare and you miss out not having Elthunder available.

But yeah, as long as this character exists big bodies have an insanely difficult MU-Robin bullies these characters incredibly hard.

Robin talk has summoned me!

Most of what you say is pretty spot on for the most part. Robin is, in my opinion, one of the most well balanced characters in the game at this time, and I believe he is a solid mid tier. It is as you say; much of that is indeed the gameplan, though you undervalue the use of default thunder, as it can accomplish the goal of forcing jumps much more effectively than elthunder, and at much less cost to durability as well. Arcthunder can also double as a sort of aerial approach deterrent, in that a reckless jump in and aerial can easily be read and the opponent takes a whopping 30% from a single spell, which makes it the preferred charge for matchups like pikachu and pichu. And Thoron, of course, is a powerful long range punish tool that can kill.

You mention arcfire ledgetrapping, and just for your information, you can do more than just grab if they roll in. The best option if they aren't at kill % would be to fire jab, as it sends them back offstage and resets the situation, or you can down smash/forward smash for kills if they are at kill %.

You seem to be one of the few to realize that Robin's biggest flaw is that disadvantage state, kudos to you! Indeed, should robin end up offstage or juggled, it is going to take some work to reset to neutral. It is very much doable though, thanks to b reverses and jump cancels like you said, plus the wildly buffed up b.

The only changes I can really ask for are to improve some of his more underutilized tools, namely ftilt, dtilt, and up throw. Those tilts are only really good as fast 'get off me' attacks, and up throw legitimately is among the worst up throws in the game. The move just doesn't do anything lol. Also I'd like for jabs 1 and 2 to connect more reliably, but beyond those changes, I feel that Robin is just fine the way he is honestly.

 

[ARISTOS]

Most of what you say is pretty spot on for the most part. Robin is, in my opinion, one of the most well balanced characters in the game at this time, and I believe he is a solid mid tier. It is as you say; much of that is indeed the gameplan, though you undervalue the use of default thunder, as it can accomplish the goal of forcing jumps much more effectively than elthunder, and at much less cost to durability as well. Arcthunder can also double as a sort of aerial approach deterrent, in that a reckless jump in and aerial can easily be read and the opponent takes a whopping 30% from a single spell, which makes it the preferred charge for matchups like pikachu and pichu. And Thoron, of course, is a powerful long range punish tool that can kill.

Thunder probably has more uses than I get out of it but I always find it a bit lacking in oomph as a deterrent in most MUs, as not enough of a threat. I can def see the potential though and will try to incorporate it though.

Thoron is really strong off the ledge (cue double kill sound) but I feel being locked out of everything else is kind of annoying...but I don't want to waste Thoron you know? Maybe at a long range just use it for the damage? Either way I find it a bit more situational than the others.

You mention arcfire ledgetrapping, and just for your information, you can do more than just grab if they roll in. The best option if they aren't at kill % would be to fire jab, as it sends them back offstage and resets the situation, or you can down smash/forward smash for kills if they are at kill %.

I mentioned grab as it's more of a safe read as opposed to smashes, but jab is definitely useful as well and is probably even better! Probably wouldn't want jab in my facing backwards scenario as its a return to neutral, but facing forward is does the trick.

You seem to be one of the few to realize that Robin's biggest flaw is that disadvantage state, kudos to you! Indeed, should robin end up offstage or juggled, it is going to take some work to reset to neutral. It is very much doable though, thanks to b reverses and jump cancels like you said, plus the wildly buffed up b.

Lmao I feel like it's obvious, in the air Robin doesn't have a ton of options and on shield Robin can't really retaliate at all, fastest option is grab at frame 11.

 

[The_Bookworm]

When Nana's training with Goku goes horribly wrong...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If Nana had Brawl A.I. (and not as glitchy), I feel like the ICs will instantly jump up the tier list.

 

[Avokha]

Thunder probably has more uses than I get out of it but I always find it a bit lacking in oomph as a deterrent in most MUs, as not enough of a threat. I can def see the potential though and will try to incorporate it though.

Thoron is really strong off the ledge (cue double kill sound) but I feel being locked out of everything else is kind of annoying...but I don't want to waste Thoron you know? Maybe at a long range just use it for the damage? Either way I find it a bit more situational than the others.



I mentioned grab as it's more of a safe read as opposed to smashes, but jab is definitely useful as well and is probably even better! Probably wouldn't want jab in my facing backwards scenario as its a return to neutral, but facing forward is does the trick.



Lmao I feel like it's obvious, in the air Robin doesn't have a ton of options and on shield Robin can't really retaliate at all, fastest option is grab at frame 11.

Thunder is meant to be used as a sort of long range poke. The point of it isn't necessarily to threaten them with it, as obviously it isnt ever going to kill, but rather to pepper them with jolts enough to coerce the opponent into doing something to escape the nuisance you're making them go through. From there you can make note of the escape option they go for or if you anticipated said option, you can go for a good punish, which then puts you in advantage, which on robin is actually very good as I'm sure you've seen.

I understand the pain of having thoron but wanting to use something else, personally I would only charge up to thoron if you really intend on using it for a kill in advantage state or as a punish, like say catching someone hanging on the ledge with fire, then throwing out thoron for the kill, or punishing another projectile like boomerangs for links or crosses/axes for belmonts.

Yeah, a lot of the better characters seem to be pretty privileged in their really good oos options lol. Granted, one of Robin's fastest oos options is nair oos at frame 12 (only 1 frame more than grab) but that's obviously overshadowed by the likes of rodents and spacies nairs oos

 

[Kiligar]

Robin guide from Duelesti, same one who made that excellent Pit guide. Goes way in depth and shows a lot of time and effort.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IGgIUrPu0G3xiiN1TUszJATxcuS_Tx-XuEJR8KvJD-w

 

[Diddy Kong]

I've had Ike catch YL's bomb with a DA and kill me. It's always been a weakness of items as walling projectiles.

I've seen it happen quite a lot since Smash 4 yeah, but I don't understand why it happens so frequently in Ultimate. As if the thrown items have a sort of gravitational pull towards them when you dash attack or do any attack with the A button. It sometimes happens so randomly as well. Peanuts are also very very easily caught.. sometimes I use it in my strategy because it eliminates certain A attack functions on my enemy, but the Banana catch at the wrong % is just certain death against Diddy if your opponents react well to it.

 

[$.A.F.]

In the game’ current state, do you think Marth could ever be better than Lucina?