Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Omnos]

they are basing that MU based on what experience? this one match is the only data we have to go on for high level rosa in ultimate's 3 months.
That didnt look even it depended on player error for that outcome. yes rosa will kill snake late but snake wasnt even doing damage for large portions of the game which is unsettling for the snake. snake has to commit to dash attack or ftilt to kill luma.

MVD has been abosolutely rocked by Aweestin so when it comes to the ness MU saying snake wins seems really questionable to me. I thought MVD had lost to other high level ness players as well like bestness and FOW. (i could be wrong about this)

MVD has a positive winrate vs Awestin.

USW 4 - Awestin
SBW 7 - MVD
XDL 2 - MVD

 

[Glerma]

I think ness seems quite good, very strong. Maybe not on the same level as Peach and Pichu etc., but certainly not far behind either.

I definitely have been more and more interested in Ness as the game progresses and have enjoyed Awestin in particular playing him. A really cool game was when he beat ESAM recently, and I know that ESAM was far from playing his best, but it shows that Awestin as a player can keep up to an extent and that Ness as a character can do the same.

Edit: My comment started a new page and I literally thought Smashboards just deleted it when I hit reply and was just like "Aight, guess I do not get to post today"

 

[blackghost]

MVD has a positive winrate vs Awestin.

USW 4 - Awestin
SBW 7 - MVD
XDL 2 - MVD

what about the locals when they played? i thought they had played 3 or 4 times in locals.

 

[Omnos]

what about the locals when they played? i thought they had played 3 or 4 times in locals.

Ya, 3 times. MVD won 2/3 of those meetings. Awestin doesn't travel or attend majors, another reason no one can really rank him despite how good he is.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I knew Awestin and MVD's record would be brought up in regards to the Snake-Ness MU. Don't get me wrong they are great sets but Awestin straight up does not play the MU like he should be doing. I already elaborated on why I believe Ness beats Snake in this thread before but one common thing your going to see in Awestin's sets with MVD is that he does not stop approaching. Snake-Ness is even when the ness doesn't stop approaching. Ness barring being down has no reason at all to approach Snake. Unlike other projectile characters where Snake's lack of of a good jump in isn't an issue because he can just chuck nades back. Against Ness, Snake cannot so freely chuck nades and stay back at zoning ranges therefore without a the ability to jump in well, PKF becomes a legitimate zoning tool in the MU. Snake's only good way around it is by clever nade placement which can always backfire and his good dash attack but when your options are limited like that it's not going to be easy for you. Ness can commit to a game of max range PKF to lure Snake close (not going into the reward of landing one against a tall fast faller like him) and send him back to the ledge with bair and fair walls.

At the frequency they play each other and at the level they are playing at, it becomes less about the MU and more about the player vs player interactions so I am expect them to trade sets back and forth, and even after all this it's not a bad MU by no means but a Ness player that actually plays "lame" like you need to in the MU is a good demonstration of why Ness wins the MU. I would love to see other high level Snake's in particular MVD since he has plenty of Ness exp to play against the other play styles of Ness and his other top players.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I definitely have been more and more interested in Ness as the game progresses and have enjoyed Awestin in particular playing him. A really cool game was when he beat ESAM recently, and I know that ESAM was far from playing his best, but it shows that Awestin as a player can keep up to an extent and that Ness as a character can do the same.

Edit: My comment started a new page and I literally thought Smashboards just deleted it when I hit reply and was just like "Aight, guess I do not get to post today"

Well, it is probably important to remember that Pikachu struggles a bit vs Ness in Ultimate. ESAM tries different characters every time they play because he doesn't like the match-up. One of the issues Pikachu has is that Ness has really frustrating approach vectors and mobility options. Pikachu has great aerials and ground moves, but Ness fair will tend to beat them out because of the disjoint and multi hit properties means they slice through. Additionally sh nair is really good out of shield vs Pikachu.

 

[Omnos]

Don't get me wrong they are great sets but Awestin straight up does not play the MU like he should be doing.

Oh, so you just know better than (arguably) the best ness player in the world? Who has a ton of MU experience vs one of the best snake players in the world. Cool.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oh, so you just know better than (arguably) the best ness player in the world? Who has a ton of MU experience vs of the best snake players in the world. Cool.

Eh, top players can and do play matchups wrong. Top players are great players obviously but they're also human.

Consider how many matchups flip around over time. We develop a better understanding and theory of game flow for games as they age. In early Brawl, ZSS players (even top ones) thought Lucario was her worst matchup. By the end most of us thought it was 6-4 because people got better at optimizing things that were theoretically there but they weren't experienced enough to implement yet.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Oh, so you just know better than (arguably) the best ness player in the world? Who has a ton of MU experience vs one of the best snake players in the world. Cool.

Please don't make the mistake that by being a top player they know all. Being a top player means they are good at the game, that's all. MK Leo legitimately believed Puff was a mid tier in Smash 4 and it doesn't take a good player to know that's not accurate.

I may not be on the same level as those guys and MVD would most definitely smoke me in the MU but I've been using this character nearly exclusively for the past 5 years now. I study this character all the time and study those better than me just as much, so yes I do think I may have some knowledgeable insight on the MU if that answers your question.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I don't think we can say what character is the very best yet, In the case of olimar and snake these character benefits of being unpopular and unorthodox character to play against, the majority of the playerbase keeps focus on wolf, lucina, pichu, peach and palutena, if more people pick olimar and snake and wins with them or atleast gets top 8 then i can see one of them becoming the best character, but right now i think most of this is a kneejerk reaction to both of them placing very well in recent majors, and i think that if sinji beated marss then pac-man would be in the same conversation.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Please don't make the mistake that by being a top player they know all. Being a top player means they are good at the game, that's all. MK Leo legitimately believed Puff was a mid tier in Smash 4 and it doesn't take a good player to know that's not accurate.

I may not be on the same level as those guys and MVD would most definitely smoke me in the MU but I've been using this character nearly exclusively for the past 5 years now. I study this character all the time and study those better than me just as much, so yes I do think I may have some knowledgeable insight on the MU if that answers your question.

I just want to state, this is so true. It's not even funny.

Like, I like to think I'm fairly good at the game (offline, anyway, LOL) due to some of my local **** and all that, definitely not a top pro or anything but I can do okay. Then my dumbass opens his mouth about some MU's, theory crafting, tiers and stuff like that and as sure of you know I'm sure I will make myself look like an absolute, total fool. I've always been that way.

On the opposite end, I've seen 'scientist' types who can go into technical knowledge and stuff of the game like that and talk about it as if they were Sakurai, but when they pick up a controller it all goes to hell.

Those two worlds are separate. They can meet, but they don't always.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Oh, so you just know better than (arguably) the best ness player in the world? Who has a ton of MU experience vs one of the best snake players in the world. Cool.

I Imagine awestin has probably played other lesser snakes more and that approaching vs them has worked fine. I also Imagine hes the kind of person who doesnt want to camp to win.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

I don't think one top player versus another top player is a good example of a particular matchup. 3 matches isn't enough to judge the viability of a character in a matchup.

I'd argue that while Awestin is super successful at his local, he doesn't have the pro experience that MVD has and MVD is possibly in the top ten for Ultimate players. Not to talk poorly about Awestin of course, but I would like to see Awestin at bigger tournaments because I feel he could be super successful, but we can't find out without him going to them.

 

[Kiligar]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lQSdKuawzZux4MSgPAcfkFvNRHUq2xf4XFh4aA4gnMc

This is Duelesti’s Pit guide for Smash Ultimate. It is by far the most well written and researched guide I have ever seen, I say this without exaggeration. It contains everything, from frame data to how each of Pit’s moves interact with different hurtboxes to ledge hang punishes. Those out there who make Pit out to be a boring, simple character will be blown away by the depth in this guide. I just want to spread this masterpiece around so Duelesti’s hard work and dedication reaches more people in the community.

 

[Y2Kay]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lQSdKuawzZux4MSgPAcfkFvNRHUq2xf4XFh4aA4gnMc

This is Duelesti’s Pit guide for Smash Ultimate. It is by far the most well written and researched guide I have ever seen, I say this without exaggeration. It contains everything, from frame data to how each of Pit’s moves interact with different hurtboxes to ledge hang punishes. Those out there who make Pit out to be a boring, simple character will be blown away by the depth in this guide. I just want to spread this masterpiece around so Duelesti’s hard work and dedication reaches more people in the community.

Thanks for sharing this, it's a very good guide.

I'm curious to how Pit fares against the top tiers. I played him a lot in smash 4, and I recall Fox and Pika being the worst top tier matchups back then. I'm not sure how much that has changed. I've heard he does well against snake.

 

[Kiligar]

Pit has a great matchup spread against a variety of characters due to many ways to mix up his recovery and landing, as well as strong edgegaurding and grab combos. Many players don’t know his true potential because of just how underused he is. Remember Maister eliminating well known players in Full Bloom 5, with the character blindly placed into low tier by both Mew2King and Zero? Mr.Game&Watch was brought all the way to the finals, only losing due to an SD. That’s just one example of not being used causing a character to be glossed over.

As for Pit v Top tiers, Gaurdian Orbitars were such a blessing against Nikita, and also worked against grenades and U-Smash for his Snake MU. Vs Pikachu/Pichu, Pit’s F-Throw comes in cinch so much due to it killing Pichu at 100 flat and Pikachu at a little higher. He also has several fast moves which can hit their miniscule hurtboxes, such as down tilt, down smash, jab and Dair. Speaking of fast moves, in overall frame data of all his smash attacks, averaged out Pit has the fastest smash attacks in the entire game. This is due to him having the fastest forward smash, 2nd fastest up smash and 2nd fastest down smash. This speed can pressure an opponent to shield, which introduces Pit’s grab game, which I’d say is top 10 thanks to a few factors.

The frame data on his grabs give him the fastest standing grab and dash grab, as well as 2nd fastest pivot grab. Of course he’s tied with a few characters, but the grab is fast, considering most other of these characters can’t do what he can after a grab. His BnB combo, Down Throw, Dair, Nair deals a sizable 30% in one go, often puts the opponent offstage and can be followed up with a Fair if the opponent does not immediately choose to jump or air dodge. The Fair can combo them into a string of Fairs straight into the blast zone, if you read their DI/Jumps. This is not Pit’s only combo by far though. Dair can combo into itself several times at a certain percent, and then you can use Fair or his arm to get the kill. This doesn’t always work and isn’t always true, but this is an option which the opponent has to be aware of. A simple true combo is down Throw-Fair at mid-high percent to keep the damage going once outside the regular BNB range.

There are many more strengths Pit has that I won’t go into to much depth but I’ll mention a few briefly. He has a great dash attack which once again improves his matchup against the lightweight nightmares in this game, such as Olimar, Pichu/Pikachu, ZSS and Fox. It can kill all these characters at 115 flat with 100% rage, which is important as it keeps the opponent stressed when you approach, with that forward throw a second option after you bait their shield. His edgegaurding is silly at times, due to two factors, his three aerial jumps and his arrows. The arrows can gimp many characters with decent recoveries, set up into kill confirms, while his 3 jumps let me perform an easy edgegaurd. I simply wait till the opponent has to recover, then I hop in place several times clicking the down air input. Very honest character indeed.

I can go on about his strengths, but let’s be real, any half balanced character have their weaknesses, and so does Pit. His air speed is a bit lacking, and he is slightly closer to the floaty side than not, but not truly a floaty. His recovery goes far and can go in many angles, but has no hitbox, which can be problematic at times but fortunately he has other options. His neutral is not extremely oppressive, something many top tiers have in common. It’s a decent neutral, but not polarizing. His specials have very limited use on-stage, most of them are defensive bar his arrows, which aren’t that good in the neutral. (Dark Pit? Anyone heard of this character? There’s a reason why there’s two Pits) Also Pit can struggle to kill if you aren’t on your game, but not Sheik level. His forward smash can catch jump on the ledge and kill any character lighter than him at 90. He can gimp and his Fair kills offstage super early. And the Bair gets the job done, this move is so important but I’ll leave it at that. In conclusion, Pit may not be top tier but is definitely not where M2K makes him out to be. He is a threat in the right hands, just has seen very little usage. Sorry for the long post, but there’s so much info I wanted you guys to know.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

I can't contain myself I have to keep writing about Bayo I'm sorry guys
TEXT WALL INCOMING
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bg8nb3/bayonetta_is_bad_2_electric_boogaloo_an_even/

DISCLAIMERS:

Spoiler: Disclaimer

I am not a competitive player, and I most likely never will be one. With that said, this look shouldn't just be shrugged off because of that. I try to take the most minor details into account and, honestly, I think you will enjoy this as much as my previous post.
If you are going to make a counterpoint, please address the part you disagree with, while taking into account the whole argument (such as "Witch Time isn't bad", instead do "while you say Up tilt is blank, it still is blank because blank and blank).
No one wants to hear you talk about how tiers should be based on popularity.

While I am not a competitive player, I have contributed much to the Bayonetta scene.
I go by Phoenix. I'm on Smashboards (my account), I'm a very prevalent member of the Bayonetta Discord (which you can join here), I created the Bayonetta Recovery Frames chart which details the majority of her landing lag from specials, the Smash Wiki page of the same name, I made the startup comparison chart among all characters for A moves and grab, and I frequently update the Bayonetta Smash Ultimate Wiki Page (My Smash Wiki account).

I reused much stuff from my last post, the reused stuff will be placed in quotes.

Key:

Spoiler: Key

Witch Twist (or Wtw): Up B
Afterburner Kick (or ABK): air side B
Downwards Afterburner Kick (or DABK): fast falling air side B
Heel Slide (or HS): grounded Side B
Bullet Climax (or BC): Neutral B
Fair 1/2/3: Bayonetta has a three part forward air that must be inputted.
Jab 1/2/3/4: Her first three hits of jab, followed by a multijab.
Bullet Arts: holding down the button on Bayonetta's moves cause her to shoot her guns. This does minor damage, stuns close up, and three moves have additional parts with them: Nair (you keep spinning), Uair (you keep spinning), and HS (you do the second part of the move).

Why was Bayonetta so good in Smash 4:
Bayonetta, as a whole, was so dominant in Smash 4 for obvious reasons. These reasons needed to be nerfed and I have no issues with them:

1. Frame 4 Witch Twist that gave you the best follow ups in the game, in addition to having a massive disjointed hitbox, that could snap the ledge instantly. It had counterplay, but being forced to counterplay a frame 4 move seemingly infinitely is irritating. Since Smash 4 shield was god tier, having this OoS was crazy.
2. Fair 1 and Fair 1/2 which, in combination with Witch Twist, made mix-ups into True Combos. By autocancelling your first two hits of fair, you could do Fair into witch twist, into abk, into witch twist, into fair, into abk, into Uair. The issue wasn't that you could do this, it was that you could do it frequently and it was braindead.
3. Witch Time, which was outright broken. Instant unavoidable kills with proper positioning.

**Obvious other reasons but these three are the most apparent.**Going into Ultimate, all three of these were nerfed heavily. Witch Twist is now frame 6, among some other changes namely it being more susceptible to DI, SDI still being very potent in a game with buffed multihits, doesn't snap the ledge from the front until frame 11, doesn't snap to the ledge from the front at all, doesn't go as high, a SUPER NERFED hitbox, and it has more endlag.
Fair 1 and Fair 1/2 has so much lag that your only option is to autocancel into Fair23, so rip followups.
and Witch Time is... well I assume you've seen.
The big issue here is that Nintendo went further... and further, and further, and didn't really know when to stop. Smash 4 Bayonetta is quite possibly the most flawed a "broken" character can be because she has definite weaknesses that, while they can be avoided, are still there. Nintendo failed to address her biggest flaws in the process of nerfing her, so now you have a character void of her broken stuff (good), void of what made her outstanding (oh), and her bad jank still unpatched (sad).

The character had several flaws from Smash 4 that still haven't been fixed:

Spoiler: unfixed stuff

Frame data (before landing lag):

Spoiler: unfixed stuff

• Frame 9 jab. This character has a frame 9 jab. It isn't even good (I'll explain that in the next paragraph). Second slowest in the game.
• Frame 12 side tilt that doesn't true combo into anything except at the lowest of percents. Also doesn't kill.
• Utilt is super laggy, it comes out frame 9 and lasts 39 frames, but it is supposed to be her main combo tool.
• Her smashes are... well you'll see in two sections.
• Frame 8 counter. In a game with frame 3 and 5 counters.

If you want to take a look at the Startup Chart, of her A moves she has 10 below average moves, 2 average, and only one above average move (which is a frame 7 Fair). She has the framedata of a heavyweight.

Her moves have stupid high startup on seemingly everything in a game with frame 1 jabs, projectiles, and other specials. She only has two grounded moves that come out before frame 9: her frame 7 down tilt (which has so much FAF it doesn't combo into much), and Witch Twist (which I butcher later). In air, she has a frame 7 Fair, which is much smaller than in Smash 4, and her Afterburner kick which, like W Twist, drowns you in recovery frames. The frame 7 grab doesn't help her either. Smashes are never safe, tilts are slow considering this is a combo character.​

The main issue is that Smash Ultimate is a much faster game than Smash 4. In Smash 4, Bayonetta's poor framedata was offset by her frame 4 OoS option, and the fact that she could safely pressure due to safety. But now, with universally buffed neutrals, her poor neutral in 4 is now terrible in Ultimate.
Multihits:

Bayonetta's multihits are possibly the worst connecting ones in the game if it wasn't for, say, Ken.​

Up tilt doesn't connect properly if you hit them either: at a specific angle, or with enough rage. Utilt is possibly her best combo starter and it is inconsistent. There is a video of Tamim losing a stock to MKLeo's Ike because Utilt did a flawed hit, his opponent recovered before the move was over, and smacked Bayo several cities over.​

Side Tilt has the same issue likewise, where Ftilt 2 and 3 will not connect. This is especially true if your opponent isn't hit by Ftilt 1, they get hit by 2, and 3 just does it's thing.​

Witch Twist, despite being "less susceptible to SDI", can still be mashed out of. Hell, the move just sometimes won't carry your opponent into the later hits of the move. Thank you single hit witch twist, very cool. Witch Twist can be fully SD'ied out of, better than in 4, making the move useless against competitive players who have solid muscle memory.​

Finally, you have Heel Slide, which can be teched and/ or DI'ed out of. This on its own is poor, but seeing how every multihit in the game seems to work better than in 4 it is just depressing.​

Smash Attacks:

I legit didn't know how they could somehow not make them better, but instead worse. Here we are though.​

All 3 Smash Attacks have a reduced charge multiplier of 1.2x, inside of witch time.​

Outside of Witch Time, they have a further reduced multiplier of 1.1x.

They clank with literally everything. EVERYTHING.​

The moves were purposefully coded to have low priority, which means they do clank with everything regardless of percent.

Fsmash has 2 less frames of startup, but because they didn't fully compensate the move it has an additional frame of end lag vs the previous game.​

My personal favorite here: Fsmash still has a goddamn blind spot right in front of Bayonetta. And because her smashes are stationary, running into her makes Bayo move backwards but the fist stay in place. You can literally outrun her smashes thanks to the blindspot.​

Landing Lag/ Recovery Frames:

They reduced landing lag on 3 of her moves: Uair (10 to 8, which is great), Fair (14 to 12, which still isn't enough), and Bair (12 to 8, which is really really nice). But they didn't do enough in a game where Shulk's Nair is frame 6 for landing.​

They made Dair 2 frames slower.​

Downwards Afterburner Kick can no longer autocancel, and it gives her 20 frames of landing lag if you don't do the landing hitbox.​

Her combos have this much landing lag based on the combination: 19, 25 (-1 from 4), 30, 32, 40, and 42 (-1 from 4).​

I forgot to add that some combos can give her 50 frames of recovery if you include DABK landing hitbox.

It's such a petty difference that it might as well not exist, where heavyweights can't undergo the amount of lag that Bayonetta receives from touching the ground.​

Held Nair and Held Uair have 8 and 6 more frames of landing lag, but it makes zero sense as to why. In Smash 4, this would be a noticeable nerf, as the slower gameplay and safer options made held Nair a big part of her kit. But in Ultimate, these moves are simply mediocre without the nerf (not to mention their nonexistent knockback and high FAF without landing), and with the nerf are literally unusable. They also added lag to held Fair and Bair for some god forsaken reason.​

My landing lag chart again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10XNTMy5xAPS2MvYeNGtD--Uq7SRyaqZVu5-uK8l53AM/edit?usp=sharing
Shield Pressure:

Bayonetta won't break your shield, she has no way of doing so. Her throws are terrible. You can sit in shield and eat grabs until she can Fthrow you at 165% at the ledge. Side B not crossing up or doing the second hit doesn't help either.​

Nothing is safe on shield except perfectly spaced Bair. Witch Twist can be punished on landing. ABK and DABK were nerfed from 4 in which hitting them on shield no longer gives you the second one, so you can almost immediately punish on landing. She has no safe tilts, no safe smashes, her jab isn't safe, and she only has one safe aerial that gives you zero followups at low percent (although it nets her kills at high ones).
Grabs:

Speaking of which, Bayonetta's grabs are pretty awful.​

Back throw is a standard positional throw, but it launches too high to be used to its fullest at the ledge.​

Up Throw launches slightly too high at low percents and doesn't come close to ever killing at high ones.​

Down Throw is too slow to use for anything, and becomes a kill throw at 245%.​

Forward throw is a good positional throw but it kills way too late, killing at 180% with proper DI.​

If any other character had Bayonetta's forward throw, it wouldn't be considered a kill throw. Her kill options are so bad a throw that kills at 180% is considered a reliable kill option.
Bullet Arts:

Honestly these might as well be taunts if we aren't counting whiffed jab 1234 and Fsmash.​

​

You have the "**** Bayonetta in particular nerfs"

Spoiler: f bayo amiright

Airdodges:

Spoiler: f bayo amiright

Bayonetta is one of two characters in the game to have a "reduced airdodge speed". The other is Little Mac. Thank you Nintendo, very cool. In addition, Bat Within always teleports Bayonetta downwards, meaning offstage this could kill her, and onstage this makes her recovery predictable.​

I wasn't 100% clear. Bat Within can have directionals but you lose your momentum and you plummet, so it can cause you to SD.

Bat Within is overrated: it can teleport you to the blastzone, you still take damage, it is predictable, Pokemon Trainer has a frame 1 dodge that is like 10x better than Bat Within. Several characters (Pikachu, Sheik) have straight up airdodges that come out on frame 2. Bayonetta takes half damage at frames 1-4.​

Smash Multiplier: Already stated above, she only has a 1.2X charge.​

Bullet Climax: Every charge move in the game, minus BC and Limit, has been buffed to be easier to charge, with lower penalties to charge. Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, you can no longer cancel during charging, and you can only hold it for 5 seconds before it autoreleases. Not a major nerf, but a middle finger to Bayo nonetheless.​

​

You have the massive, seemingly uncalled for nerfs:

Spoiler: more nerfy boys

Up Air and Neutral Air

Spoiler: more nerfy boys

cannot kill at 245% center stage. Held Nair and Uair are borderline useless unless you go super offstage with held Uair. It is much harder to ladder people, and now it is impossible to finish them with Uair. The move is a great combo tool, but changing a move from killing at 120% to 200+% is just... wow. Both of these moves should kill at 200%, bare minimum, and they don't even do that.

Spoiler: more nerfy boys

Bayonetta's Side B (Heel Slide) is pretty awful. No true combos off it unless you are at like 10%, the second hit sometimes isn't true, you can sometimes tech between hits, you can shield it and punish. The move is 71 frames one hit, 72 frames both hits. The move relies entirely on the second hit to be usable, and the removal of it on shield makes it dead in the water. It is all risk minimal reward.​

Dair kills later (on and offstage), has more FAF, has more landing lag, and still doesn't have consistent air into landing hitbox.​

Hell, it's actually much less consistent. And thanks to footstool confirms gone, you have no kill confirms with it anymore. So why is it slower?!

Bair kills later, has more FAF, and has a worsened sweetspot thanks to a greatly nerfed hitbox.​

Hitboxes/ Visuals:

Don't crucify me I thought she had some stupid big hitboxes in Smash 4, but this is a new game and they *suck* in this one. Honestly I'll just provide the video here ( https://youtu.be/TH_0Wv82IgQ ) and say that they nerfed most of her hitboxes while refusing to fix her massive issues with them. This is a Nerf in some cases, and in others it doesn't fix previous game jank. Take for example her trails. Her forward air, Jab, and side tilt all have their trails come out 1 to 2 frames before the move comes out, meaning they look faster than they actually are. The Bayonetta Discord has a meme of Bayonetta's landing Forward Air going through a KRool for instance. But it doesn't end with bad trails coming out too early, it also has to do with them not lining up. The very beginning of Bayonetta's Up air didn't have a hitbox in 4, and they made the problem worse by having the hitbox start ever so slightly later in the move. If Bayos leg is an arch, imagine the first 15 degrees cut off. This doesn't even take into account her Smashes mind you. Most of all, Witch Twist went from straight broken to depressing in one game, honestly that move just got butchered. I would like to add that the hitbox video is super accurate, as Bayonetta has minimal/ no stretched limbs.​

Witch Time:

This needed to be nerfed. But it still had issues that weren't fixed. It's now a frame 8 counter, with 60 FAF, that only nets you anything meaty past 90%, you can be outprioritized in your own counter, early percents are useless, more than 3 whiffs are useless, etc. Any other counter does more damage at lower percents, and kills earlier/ more consistently. In addition, Smash Attacks are made weaker in WT when charged, having their multiplier lowered further to 1.1x.​

Witch Twist:

Can still be SDI'ed out of, DI hurts it more, single hit witch twist is terrible while it was good in 4, the grounded hitbox doesn't hit short characters (Pichu, Pikachu, Jiggly, Kirby), and it doesn't snap the ledge... it a game where nearly everything snaps the ledge at some point. Her OoS option turns her vulnerable and only works on whichever side she is facing. The hitbox is terribly small as well compared to 4.​

​

The Answer

Spoiler: conclusion

So what can we see from here? We have a character who can't approach, as she as zero shield pressure, her quickest safe option is running Dtilt, frame 7, or short hop ABK, frame 10, both of which are unsafe. Or she can go for a grab that leads to nothing because her throws suck.

Spoiler: conclusion

At the same time, she has no pressure. Bullet arts are far too laggy, and Bullet Climax is insanely matchup dependent. BC for example does horribly against shorter characters, while it is serviceable against taller ones. Altogether though, it can't beat zoners.​

Your entire game plan is playing an absurd mind game with worse tools than your opponent. Everything good with Bayonetta is punish based, but even then it isn't superb. She has a combo game, and has cool and crazy zero to deaths on YouTube, but once you play the character you realize how stupidly technical and impossible compared to S4 Bayo.​

A simple ladder combo is laggier, more dangerous, and much harder to perform, with much less reward. And even if you succeed, you run the risk of an SD.​

Getting your opponent to kill percent makes life even worse. You have no good kill moves other than back air, and even then that move is absolute jank, requiring perfect placement to do as much as kill at 130% instead of 150% with it. Your smashes are terrible, Witch Time has is awful and may not even work, your kill throw kills a solid 10-50% later than every other kill throw (that is considered a viable kill option) in the game. Bayonetta becomes insanely edgeguard dependent, and even then your aerials alone won't kill. You have to string your specials together to do as much as kill at 120% offstage when Marthcina or Paisy can just smack them with anything.​

She's insanely read dependent and at a constant disadvantage because the neutral *is* her disadvantage state.​

Matchup wise, she does poorly against every good character with the only exceptions being ROB and Ganon due to her combos actually working and her edgeguarding shining through, but even then learning the matchup doesn't make it heavily in her favor.​

She gets destroyed by small characters because of her hitboxes being so awkward. She gets beat by disjoints because everything clanks with everything. She struggles against characters with good recoveries because her biggest strength disappears. She struggles against characters that can beat her to every punch, and have moves that come out at frame 1 to beat her combos like Snake and Luigi. She struggles against characters with good grabs as her reliance on you throwing out something unsafe on her shield is substantially less. She dies early. She's easily pressured. Projectiles scare her. She has the frame data of a heavyweight and she kills like Sheik.​

Super combos on YouTube are less “wow they landing that” and more “wow they did absolutely nothing”. Don't DI up, airdodge out, and learn in what direction to DI so you don't get slapped by a character that is most likely inferior to your own.​

She has minimal tournament results.​

Bayonetta is not a good character. If you have trouble with the matchup, join the Bayonetta Discord and we can politely tell you how to win it. Stupid high risk for moderate reward.​

​

And now let's see some competitive players opinions of Bayonetta:
MKLeo, the man from the famous Smash Bros Invitational with the ladder against Plup's Ridley.
Lima, retired Smash Ult Bayo main who quit.
Tamim, who kinda deleted everything so I got nothing to put here just take my word for it please I provided like 20 sources.
Captain Zack, who plays Bayonetta in pools and has more or less dropped her for Daisy.
Geist, one of very few current Bayo mains who isn't exactly having a good time.

Edit: formatted

 

[Kiligar]

And people get angry when I said the patch was disappointing. I hopefully think that they were simply too focused on stage builder+joker etc to give the patch too much thought, and this wasn’t a well planned patch. There are so many characters who needed a lot, and got nothing. Those were the lucky ones, as some got nerfed and weren’t even top tier (Mii Gunner, Isabelle/Villager). Don’t give up hope non top tier mains. Our time will come, this isn’t Melee or Sm4sh, this is Ultimate.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I said the patch was a disappointment and still stick to that. I, however, am very happy with Joker now.

I don't give a flip about Stage Builder (haven't even so much as used it), I'm happy Olimar got his smashes fixed, I'm happy OVERALL projectiles got a little bit less degenerate in some of the campier MU's, I'm happy Mewtwo got real big boy buffs.. there were a few other things I liked. I do like the new stage, even though I can't play on it for long periods, I actually LIKE the hazards on it and the BF & FD versions are very pretty.. even if headache inducing.

Everything else was a complete, and total let down. The biggest pierce to my heart was my boy Captain Falcon was left wholely untouched. Ganon actually received a 'nerf' despite falling down the tiers faster than a geriatric wash out and the stuff they did to K. Rool REALLY didn't make too much of a difference like so many people seem to think as all of his big problems still remain. Tons of other characters didn't get touched. Sheik's 'buffs' were very underwhelming. NONE of what they did to Corrin did anything to solve that character's biggest problem.. a really wonky neutral.. just, ugh.

Not a great patch at all imo, simply was spiced up by a few great things.

 

[meleebrawler]

And people get angry when I said the patch was disappointing. I hopefully think that they were simply too focused on stage builder+joker etc to give the patch too much thought, and this wasn’t a well planned patch. There are so many characters who needed a lot, and got nothing. Those were the lucky ones, as some got nerfed and weren’t even top tier (Mii Gunner, Isabelle/Villager). Don’t give up hope non top tier mains. Our time will come, this isn’t Melee or Sm4sh, this is Ultimate.

Yeah, those scummy top tier mains will get what's coming to them, being forced to relearn everything every time a patch with huge sweeping changes comes. /s

I said the patch was a disappointment and still stick to that. I, however, am very happy with Joker now.

I don't give a flip about Stage Builder (haven't even so much as used it), I'm happy Olimar got his smashes fixed, I'm happy OVERALL projectiles got a little bit less degenerate in some of the campier MU's, I'm happy Mewtwo got real big boy buffs.. there were a few other things I liked. I do like the new stage, even though I can't play on it for long periods, I actually LIKE the hazards on it and the BF & FD versions are very pretty.. even if headache inducing.

Everything else was a complete, and total let down. The biggest pierce to my heart was my boy Captain Falcon was left wholely untouched. Ganon actually received a 'nerf' despite falling down the tiers faster than a geriatric wash out and the stuff they did to K. Rool REALLY didn't make too much of a difference like so many people seem to think as all of his big problems still remain. Tons of other characters didn't get touched. Sheik's 'buffs' were very underwhelming. NONE of what they did to Corrin did anything to solve that character's biggest problem.. a really wonky neutral.. just, ugh.

Not a great patch at all imo, simply was spiced up by a few great things.

Wait a minute. If opinions of Ganondorf dropped as quickly as you say, how were the devs supposed to respond appropriately?

All this is besides the point that while it's easy to point out ways to improve a character in a vacuum, the potential consequences are beyond us. No amount of reasonable changes will make someone like K. Rool great at competitive 1v1s, because some archetypes are just not cut out for it. Previous attempts at giving big shots to the arm resulted in things like Showtime and Ding-Dong. Do we really want to see a Finest Hour for K. Rool?

 

[Sean²]

Oh, so you just know better than (arguably) the best ness player in the world? Who has a ton of MU experience vs one of the best snake players in the world. Cool.

If you've ever seriously watched Awestin play, he is has a lot of noticeable habits that take him a bit longer to break than most other top players. Can't remember which Bayo player he went up against in the past month or two but it took him getting witch timed like 5 times just for attempting PK Fire followups until he realized to go out of witch time range before trying to do anything. Top players, while better than most, aren’t omniscient. That’s why a lot of them hire coaches.

 

[ZephyrZ]

And people get angry when I said the patch was disappointing. I hopefully think that they were simply too focused on stage builder+joker etc to give the patch too much thought, and this wasn’t a well planned patch. There are so many characters who needed a lot, and got nothing. Those were the lucky ones, as some got nerfed and weren’t even top tier (Mii Gunner, Isabelle/Villager). Don’t give up hope non top tier mains. Our time will come, this isn’t Melee or Sm4sh, this is Ultimate.

People expected big balance changes from 2.0 and that didn't happen. So everyone expected that for 3.0 instead, and that didn't happen either. So why do we have any reason to expect big changes for 4.0?

Look, I'm a Charizard main (well, a PT main who specializes at Zard at any rate). I know this game is full of overtuned, undertuned, and even a few incomplete characters. But overall the game is in a fairly good stop it terms of balance and its a bit of a relief the devs are being cautious about throwing it off, which big sweeping changes can easily do. I think at this point we've just got to accept that.

 

[Kiligar]

People expected big balance changes from 2.0 and that didn't happen. So everyone expected that for 3.0 instead, and that didn't happen either. So why do we have any reason to expect big changes for 4.0?

Look, I'm a Charizard main (well, a PT main who specializes at Zard at any rate). I know this game is full of overtuned, undertuned, and even a few incomplete characters. But overall the game is in a fairly good stop it terms of balance and its a bit of a relief the devs are being cautious about throwing it off, which big sweeping changes can easily do. I think at this point we've just got to accept that.

I don’t think Charizard, Bayo, Bowser Jr., Little Mac etc should get nothing throughout the games entire update history. For now, the patch will suffice. That is as long as in future patches something, something is done for weaker characters. There is a balance team whose purpose is to supervise the balance in the game. This is the most modern, fastest selling Smash game. The biggest Smash game, Smash Ultimate. With all that in mind, I won’t set my expectations to the sky. But at least gradually improve the balance with each ‘balance’ patch. That’s what there for. So that by the end of the update history, there is a reason to use every character in the game. Melee Fox kind of stuff only happened because the game couldn’t be patched. Same thing with Meta Knight. With all the new popularity and better technology, the game does not have to turn out the same way as every previous installments in terms of balance, where 5-10 characters outclass all others. I’m hopeful for a future in competitive smash where each character is nearly as viable an another, no huge gaps.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Pit has a great matchup spread against a variety of characters due to many ways to mix up his recovery and landing, as well as strong edgegaurding and grab combos. Many players don’t know his true potential because of just how underused he is. Remember Maister eliminating well known players in Full Bloom 5, with the character blindly placed into low tier by both Mew2King and Zero? Mr.Game&Watch was brought all the way to the finals, only losing due to an SD. That’s just one example of not being used causing a character to be glossed over.

As for Pit v Top tiers, Gaurdian Orbitars were such a blessing against Nikita, and also worked against grenades and U-Smash for his Snake MU. Vs Pikachu/Pichu, Pit’s F-Throw comes in cinch so much due to it killing Pichu at 100 flat and Pikachu at a little higher. He also has several fast moves which can hit their miniscule hurtboxes, such as down tilt, down smash, jab and Dair. Speaking of fast moves, in overall frame data of all his smash attacks, averaged out Pit has the fastest smash attacks in the entire game. This is due to him having the fastest forward smash, 2nd fastest up smash and 2nd fastest down smash. This speed can pressure an opponent to shield, which introduces Pit’s grab game, which I’d say is top 10 thanks to a few factors.

The frame data on his grabs give him the fastest standing grab and dash grab, as well as 2nd fastest pivot grab. Of course he’s tied with a few characters, but the grab is fast, considering most other of these characters can’t do what he can after a grab. His BnB combo, Down Throw, Dair, Nair deals a sizable 30% in one go, often puts the opponent offstage and can be followed up with a Fair if the opponent does not immediately choose to jump or air dodge. The Fair can combo them into a string of Fairs straight into the blast zone, if you read their DI/Jumps. This is not Pit’s only combo by far though. Dair can combo into itself several times at a certain percent, and then you can use Fair or his arm to get the kill. This doesn’t always work and isn’t always true, but this is an option which the opponent has to be aware of. A simple true combo is down Throw-Fair at mid-high percent to keep the damage going once outside the regular BNB range.

There are many more strengths Pit has that I won’t go into to much depth but I’ll mention a few briefly. He has a great dash attack which once again improves his matchup against the lightweight nightmares in this game, such as Olimar, Pichu/Pikachu, ZSS and Fox. It can kill all these characters at 115 flat with 100% rage, which is important as it keeps the opponent stressed when you approach, with that forward throw a second option after you bait their shield. His edgegaurding is silly at times, due to two factors, his three aerial jumps and his arrows. The arrows can gimp many characters with decent recoveries, set up into kill confirms, while his 3 jumps let me perform an easy edgegaurd. I simply wait till the opponent has to recover, then I hop in place several times clicking the down air input. Very honest character indeed.

I can go on about his strengths, but let’s be real, any half balanced character have their weaknesses, and so does Pit. His air speed is a bit lacking, and he is slightly closer to the floaty side than not, but not truly a floaty. His recovery goes far and can go in many angles, but has no hitbox, which can be problematic at times but fortunately he has other options. His neutral is not extremely oppressive, something many top tiers have in common. It’s a decent neutral, but not polarizing. His specials have very limited use on-stage, most of them are defensive bar his arrows, which aren’t that good in the neutral. (Dark Pit? Anyone heard of this character? There’s a reason why there’s two Pits) Also Pit can struggle to kill if you aren’t on your game, but not Sheik level. His forward smash can catch jump on the ledge and kill any character lighter than him at 90. He can gimp and his Fair kills offstage super early. And the Bair gets the job done, this move is so important but I’ll leave it at that. In conclusion, Pit may not be top tier but is definitely not where M2K makes him out to be. He is a threat in the right hands, just has seen very little usage. Sorry for the long post, but there’s so much info I wanted you guys to know.

Pit also has very good traction as well which I don't see being mentioned anywhere. Not too important but he can punish OOS easier than other characters because of it.

Edit: I'm pretty sure it is tied for second best with Dark Pit and is less than only Sonic's.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Rather it was possible for x, y and z to happen in the patch wasn't the point.

I'm still disappointed by it, I don't even play K.Rool or care about most heavies. Was simply an observation, the patch didn't change a lot, but everyone has been waiting for something 'huge'. That's just natural reasoning.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They're going to patch slowly because they did large patches quickly in SSB4 and a number of changes ended up being mistakes (like nerfing Little Mac).

They're not going to go overboard. Or go fast at all. I honestly wouldn't expect more than 2-3 characters to get noticeable changes per patch, and then a slew of bug fixes/changes so minor we realistically don't notice. That is what everyone should expect going forwards: if you're banking on your character getting a large buff you're playing them for the wrong reason. Either play them while accepting the fact they aren't amazing, or great, or good, or viable even, or change characters if being competitive is more important to you.

Also keep in mind they have to balance for every mode, not just 1v1 competitive. Entirely possible that a character is doing only so-so in 1v1 but is absolutely killing it in FFA: you ain't going to buff them in that case, that would ruin the game for other people.

I also seriously expect Bayonetta to either never be buffed or not buffed until over a year from now due to how much damage she did in SSB4 + the infamous double Bayonetta stall in grand finals with the dev there. No smart dev is ever going to let that happen again, particularly not with the same character. With a roster of over 70 characters its better to sacrifice one competitively than risk something like that making it through.

---

Going forwards, its probably going to be more important to start identifying who good character pick character options are see as its unlikely we get any drastic changes via patches any time soon. Characters that have at least a slight edge against one/some of the the common threats, but are easy to pick up. Makes it a lot easier to use a slightly lessor character if you have a good fallback option when needed. Wolf, Snake, Olimar, Lucina, Palutena, Fox, Peach/Daisy are the big ones to have in mind that are common in every region (Pichu ain't common everywhere, neither is ZSS, Greninja, MegaMan, Ness, etc etc). Ain't any character that tackles all of them, so if your main doesn't cover at least 75% of them you're going to want to look at a new main if you want to be competitive and not play just to see how far you can push a character. If your main has trouble with just one or two of that list you can probably pick up a secondary to cover them.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Feel free to disagree, but I'm glad the balance patches haven't made drastic changes. Back in the days of Smash 4, I eagerly welcomed every patch because that game's balance legitimately sucked, to be frank. But now I feel a sense of apprehension when an Ultimate patch rolls around because its balance already seems pretty good. I don't know if that's the general consensus anymore, but I don't want to see the meta get turned on its head five months after release, so the conservative balance changes seem good to me.

 

[Terotrous]

I know I'm so late to the party that everyone has already gone home but whatever! It's time for new character impressions!

Played a bunch of Joker tonight, and I'm liking him quite a lot. I feel like he's a very solid character, he's very fast and fluid and his moveset just feels like it flows well. Contrary to what you might expect, I don't feel like he's super reliant on the Persona, obviously it makes him a lot better (side B especially) but you're by no means gimped without it, it's more like a nice bonus when it's out rather than a crutch that he's totally reliant upon. He's got loads of nice crossups thanks to his speed, obviously dash attack crosses up (this alone makes me want to main him, I so miss my old Yoshi dash attack), but he can also cross up with most of his aerials as well, which is good because Nair is sometimes shield grabbable without persona.

FSmash is a surprisingly great attack, with or without persona, it's very fast, it's fairly safe if it hits from max range, and it kills pretty early. I was playing some matches vs a Palutena and I noticed that FSmash OOS is actually a true punish vs Palutena FSmash, which is pretty huge. It's also just a pretty solid option to challenge landing hitboxes that might not be spaced properly because its hitbox seems pretty advantageous, and his great ground speed makes it very easy to get optimal spacing.

One weakness he seems to have for sure is recovery, he has like no way to land onstage so you can pressure his ledge options or attempt to 2frame him every time, or just go out there and hit him with a big hitbox like a Lucina sword or something. Tether does go really far and that helps some but he's definitely on the easier end of the cast to edgeguard.

I could actually see myself maining this character, in a lot of ways he reminds me of what I used to like in Smash 4 Yoshi. He's still a fairly honest character (unless someone has discovered some kill setups in the last few days that I haven't seen), but his moveset generally feels pretty strong across the board, with a good mix of mobility and power. I don't think he's going to be anywhere near top tier without some consistent kill setups but I could see him in high tier for sure, he just feels quite solid all around.

 

[webbedspace]

I love Bayonetta and all her mains' arguments are valid, but I swear that if Rosalina or Shiek got 1/20th of the outcry she's getting, the low-tier discourse would be a bit less repetitive.

What I'm wondering is, is Olimar really "definitely top 1" as some have declared off the backs of Shuton's and Myran's recent wins? Feels to me like another over-reaction to coincidentally close victories for the character, much like with Wolf. But, maybe it's true, and the only thing saving us from a space gnome meta is the (possibly mythical) conception that Pikmin management has a high skill floor.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I love Bayonetta and all her mains' arguments are valid, but I swear that if Rosalina or Shiek got 1/20th of the outcry she's getting, the low-tier discourse would be a bit less repetitive.

What I'm wondering is, is Olimar really "definitely top 1" as some have declared off the backs of Shuton's and Myran's recent wins? Feels to me like another over-reaction to coincidentally close victories for the character, much like with Wolf. But, maybe it's true, and the only thing saving us from a space gnome meta is the (possibly mythical) conception that Pikmin management has a high skill floor.

The thing is that Olimar got apparently buffed (I don't know how much) while other top-tiers (Wolf, apparently Peach as well(?)) got nerfed. I mean, the Wolf nerf isn't all that huge but a nerf nonetheless.
And I think people will eventually adapt to how Olimar plays since he fights like no other of the top-tiers and you, as the opponent, have to keep track of the Pikmin line-up as well. So you have to focus even more on your opponent then usual and that can get taxing.
You can say that people are using chars that have a bad MU against Olimar. The current top-tier are characters that have to fight up-close with him (Wolf, Peach, Lucina) and in order to get there they have to break through the wall of Pikmin and when they do they are already at 50%+. There's a reason why other zoning and more defensive characters like the Belmonts, Snake, Zelda have a relatively good time with Olimar. Ness apparently does well against Olimar, too.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The thing is that Olimar got apparently buffed (I don't know how much) while other top-tiers (Wolf, apparently Peach as well(?)) got nerfed. I mean, the Wolf nerf isn't all that huge but a nerf nonetheless.

It wasn't a buff so much as a fix. His smash attacks used to not increase in power when charged like they should, but now they do.

Honestly it's not a big deal, landing a charged smash attack is both risky and required a read so while it does make Olimar stronger it won't significantly shake up any match ups or anything. Anyone who's freaking out over these buffs is probably overreacting a little.

 

[blackghost]

I love Bayonetta and all her mains' arguments are valid, but I swear that if Rosalina or Shiek got 1/20th of the outcry she's getting, the low-tier discourse would be a bit less repetitive.

except for the fact that shiek just got buffed and Rosalina isnt in nearly as and a place as bayonetta is. rosalina was never a popular character to begin with it makes sense she wouldnt have that community outcry. before Bayonetta was in the game Rosalina was public enemy number 1.

characters are low tier for different reasons:
1. design doesnt work well lil mac. you cannot make a character be that dysfunctional in the air in a game that is platform fighter it doesnt work. I saw this same thing happen to hsien-ko in umvc 3. her design didnt fit the game.
2. overall changes to the engine rosalina. faster pace, better frame data on almost every character and anti-projectile mechanics. similair to what happens to ryu in some street fighter games.
3. kit doesn't mesh/ incomplete gameplan. Bowser jr. he needed more than frame data buffs.

Bayonetta falls out of all of these categories. Because she fits into multiple plus an outside factor: the community itself. In a game that has heavy offense and damage and frame data buffs on every character (except her) it makes it come across to people familiar with her that she was nerfed out of spite. Which is not something a game dev should ever do in a fighting game. Thats why the Bayonetta mains are upset. Wishing a character to disappear from use is rude to their player base and mains and it has effectively happened and trying to silience or dismiss thier arguments isnt gong to make them stop. if you dont like it ignore it but with mk Leo tweeting out stuff like this https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/1120409921487613953 it isnt going to end anytime soon.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Does anyone think may be falling off just the slightest bit. No Pichu's got into top 8 at Pound or Prime Saga (altough a Pichu won a pretty stacked Japan tourney so that was not a bad week overall). Void got 2nd place at Genesis correct but has not got any top 8 placings at other supermajors.

I dunno are pro players learning how to deal with her. 3.0.0 gave her slight nerfs with apparently getting increased hurtboxes during some moves or animations, but I am not sure it it makes any noticable difference. No notable Pichu players have said anything about it.

Right now I dont think Pichu is the best character, or maybe not in top 5. Still think she is a top 10 character.

 

[Rizen]

What I'm wondering is, is Olimar really "definitely top 1" as some have declared off the backs of Shuton's and Myran's recent wins? Feels to me like another over-reaction to coincidentally close victories for the character, much like with Wolf. But, maybe it's true, and the only thing saving us from a space gnome meta is the (possibly mythical) conception that Pikmin management has a high skill floor.

Like I said earlier, Olimar's a contender for #1 but not definitively. There's a small group of top tiers that you could make the argument any of which are #1 however it's comparing apples to oranges. They all have unique strengths.

Does anyone think may be falling off just the slightest bit. No Pichu's got into top 8 at Pound or Prime Saga (altough a Pichu won a pretty stacked Japan tourney so that was not a bad week overall). Void got 2nd place at Genesis correct but has not got any top 8 placings at other supermajors.

I dunno are pro players learning how to deal with her. 3.0.0 gave her slight nerfs with apparently getting increased hurtboxes during some moves or animations, but I am not sure it it makes any noticable difference. No notable Pichu players have said anything about it.

Right now I dont think Pichu is the best character, or maybe not in top 5. Still think she is a top 10 character.

I agree Pichu's top 10 yet not top 5. He seems amazing but if the opponent makes one read at 60% Pichu's dead. He makes Fox look like a middle weight he's so light.

 

[Kiligar]

Rosalina used to be my secondary, but she didn’t get the buffs she needed. She received 2 changes in the patch for the positive, which have uses but don’t directly increase her killpower/damage. The nerfs to her ‘projectiles’ really put me off. They weren’t that good to begin with, so those nerfs were silly. Rosalina needs better knockback growth on her kill throws, a slightly stronger Uair and Nair, and a Lums that lasts longer, from my experience. She didn’t receive any of these. I even used to have L. Mac as my secondary before Rosa, but you can see the patch notes of the previous patch for yourself. I’ve spoken to Rosa mains and Sol about what they’d like to see, and the patch was exactly what we’ve been complaining about for many different reasons. Well, is it reasonable to hope for these changes in 4.0.0? I’ve just decided to focus on what my characters have now instead of what they don’t have, but I still have that faint glimmer of hope hidden away. Ultimate has the best meta we’ve seen out of all Smash games so far, but it’s still possible to make it better.

One thing I’m wondering about is attack cancels. Is it possible to pull them off consistently at tournaments, rather than in training room? Is it possible to pull them off online? With consistent attack cancels, the meta would be vastly different. There are some underused characters that become broken with Attack Cancels, with one we know for sure being Rosalina, but I’d like to learn more about the applications of them across the huge roster.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Feel free to disagree, but I'm glad the balance patches haven't made drastic changes. Back in the days of Smash 4, I eagerly welcomed every patch because that game's balance legitimately sucked, to be frank. But now I feel a sense of apprehension when an Ultimate patch rolls around because its balance already seems pretty good. I don't know if that's the general consensus anymore, but I don't want to see the meta get turned on its head five months after release, so the conservative balance changes seem good to me.

Yeah I agree with this. This game's balance is better, not just on a character basis, but on a mechanics basis. There's a really good balance between the different archetypes right now. I still think the heavy grappler archetype is a little bit underrepresented (I mean there's Snake but still), but we have rushdown, zoning, pixie, footsies, and all-rounder styles represented in the top 10. That's because the game is mechanically solid and tight and supports more characters and playstyles than past games have.

It's also for that reason that even low mid tier feels viable to me. Advantage state is powerful in Ultimate, and most characters can do a lot with it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah I agree with this. This game's balance is better, not just on a character basis, but on a mechanics basis. There's a really good balance between the different archetypes right now. I still think the heavy grappler archetype is a little bit underrepresented (I mean there's Snake but still), but we have rushdown, zoning, pixie, footsies, and all-rounder styles represented in the top 10. That's because the game is mechanically solid and tight and supports more characters and playstyles than past games have.

It's also for that reason that even low mid tier feels viable to me. Advantage state is powerful in Ultimate, and most characters can do a lot with it.

What the hell is a pixie fighting style?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What the hell is a pixie fighting style?

A Pixie character is a character with overwhelming options (normally mobility) but very low vitality. They are typically loaded up with very powerful options within their archetype or across several, depending on the game. These are often rushdown characters but often are zoners, hybrids, grapplers or anything really. An example of a pixie in Smash Ultimate would be Pichu. An example in Street Fighter would be Akuma, or maybe Cammy.

 

[Xenophon of Athens]

What are you guys thought on Inkling's place in the meta? I think it's an interesting case where a character was proclaimed one of the best, if not the best, character in game early in the game and even MKLeo said he considered the character the best in game during genesis.

However aside from Cosmos it doesn't look like a character all that well represented in the upper echelon of competitive play despite the initial perception. Pound for example had zero Inklings in the top 50 and there wasn't much representation in Prime either. But there was a good amount in the Japanese tournament earlier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What are you guys thought on Inkling's place in the meta? I think it's an interesting case where a character was proclaimed one of the best, if not the best, character in game early in the game and even MKLeo said he considered the character the best in game during genesis.

However aside from Cosmos it doesn't look like a character all that well represented in the upper echelon of competitive play despite the initial perception. Pound for example had zero Inklings in the top 50 and there wasn't much representation in Prime either. But there was a good amount in the Japanese tournament earlier.

Inkling is really that good. No one wants to play Inkling because they're boring. It's just a milquetoast allrounder character without a lot of flavor IMO.