Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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And there's hoping Mystearica can beat Seagull in losers again.
But again, another pretty good placement for Zelda in a fairly stacked tournament. One big win against 6WX (don't know if he's still that good in Ult, though).
 

The_Bookworm

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Here is what top 49 looks like:

Winner's
Jw:ultgreninja: vs Leffen:ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf:
Myran:ultolimar: vs UtopianRay:ultpalutena:
Marss:ultzss: vs MuteAce:ultpeach:
Samsora:ultpeach: vs MattyG:ultchrom:
Daybreak:ultwolf: vs Ally:ultsnake:
Pelca:ultsnake: vs Phantom:ultpalutena:
Nairo:ultpalutena: vs MVD:ultsnake:
Dabuz:ultolimar: vs Dark Wizzy:ultmario:


Loser's
Shyguy:ultpokemontrainer: vs MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
Gen:ultpalutena: vs Atomsk:ultkingdedede:
ESAM:ultpikachu: vs Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
LingLing:ultpeach: vs CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
Dexter:ultwolf: vs Mr E:ultlucina:
Mystearica:ultzelda: vs Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
ZD:ultfox: vs ANTi:ultmario:
Zinoto:ultpeach::ultdiddy: vs Salem:ultsnake:
Mr R:ultchrom: vs PkChris:ultness:
Riddles:ultrichter: vs Suarez:ultyoshi:
Geist:ultbayonetta: vs Sinji:ultpacman:
Ice:ultwolf: vs burntsocks:ultyoshi:
Ryuga:ultike: vs MJ:ultrob:
Light:ultfox: vs Frozen:ultpalutena:
Puppeh:ultwolf::ultpokemontrainer: vs Goblin:ultroy:
BobbyWasabi:ultvillager: vs Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda:
 
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Rizen

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Unless your character’s mobility is significantly better than Joker’s, and can wall him out, trying to time out Arsene isn’t really viable.

30 seconds is a long time to play keep away from a character that is essentially Dark Lord Sheik.
I agree you can't fully out-camp Arsene but you can take a big chunk of that time away between keep away and chip damage. It's not like Cloud's limit where you need to keep him out the full time or risk eating a Limit CS. Playing passively when Arsene's out is an effective strategy if you have the tools to do it.
Here is what top 49 looks like:

Winner's
Jw:ultgreninja: vs Leffen:ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf:
Myran:ultolimar: vs UtopianRay:ultpalutena:
Marss:ultzss: vs MuteAce:ultpeach:
Samsora:ultpeach: vs MattyG:ultchrom:
Daybreak:ultwolf: vs Ally:ultsnake:
Pelca:ultsnake: vs Phantom
Nairo:ultpalutena: vs MVD:ultsnake:
Dabuz:ultolimar: vs Dark Wizzy:ultmario:


Loser's
Shyguy vs MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
Gen:ultpalutena: vs Atomsk
ESAM:ultpikachu: vs Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
LingLing:ultpeach: vs CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
Dexter vs Mr E:ultlucina:
Mystearica:ultzelda: vs Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
ZD:ultfox: vs ANTi:ultmario:
Zinoto:ultpeach::ultdiddy: vs Salem:ultsnake:
Mr R:ultchrom: vs PkChris:ultness:
Riddles vs Suarez:ultyoshi:
Geist:ultbayonetta: vs Sinji:ultpacman:
Ice:ultwolf: vs burntsocks
Ryuga:ultike: vs MJ
Light:ultfox: vs Frozen:ultpalutena:
Puppeh:ultwolf::ultpokemontrainer: vs Goblin:ultroy:
BobbyWasabi vs Danbi
Remember when people thought Link was better than Snake? :rolleyes:
 
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Y2Kay

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Gen:ultpalutena: 2-0 Mr E:ultlucina:

Jul:ultrobin: 2-1 JeBB:ultpalutena: (eliminated at 65th place)
Gen beating Mr E is definitely not an upset lol. They go back and forth a lot in NYC locals, but I'm pretty sure it favors Gen as of late.

I'm not sure Juuuuuul beating JeBB is an upset either. He doesn't have a winning record against the top NYC Palu's (Gen, Utopian Ray, Frozen) but these guys are insanely good and he's more than prepared in that MU. Still, that MU is not very good Robin, so I guess it's fine.

:150:
 

Phoenix_is_OK

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I don't see this referenced so I'll bring it up now.

Stun Jacket has been removed from Smash Ultimate. For the most part, stun jacket is nearly impossible to perform in a tournament setting due to some moves being impossible to whiff your counter (Mega Man's Up Smash, Nayru's Love, etc), while others are simply too risky to be seen in a tournament commonly (Ridley's Skewer). Stun Jacket's removal does however help both Bayonetta and Mii Swordsman.

Bayonetta's bullet arts could cause stun jacket, and with it's removal Bayonetta definitely benefits from it. Granted, it's like putting scotch tape on a hole in the floor, but it's a buff so I'll take it.

Mii Swordsman's side b (Airborne Assault) no longer gets it, and because that thing makes counter's whiff frequently (at least against Marthcina from my general matches), it is now even safer against counters as you get seemingly no penalty.

Nothing "big", but something to take into consideration: you can't abuse a glitch on two specific characters/ moves now.
 
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probably not the best idea to base a (broad) statement about a character two days old solely on "I haven't lost to one yet"


I can't really speak for the other 3 characters, but in Corrin's case I don't think that the changes are as big of a deal as the number of them might make it seem. It's mostly QoL/fixing a couple of multi-hit moves rather than anything game-changing. The only one that probably really matters afaik is the up B changes.

nevermind that the waterball change was completely useless/pointless
Agree. Recovery buff is nice and helps, but Corrins neutral is still extremely meh with Pin and DFS being so bad; the same nerfs also neuter her ability to kill and on top of it he kill throws have also been gutted; moreover, her damage per hit is far too low despite the fact that she gets so many free strings from several of her attacks. The patch kinda didn't even begin to fix her issues other than in the recovery department.


I really would like to hear an explanation on what they were thinking nerfing her as hard as they did.
 

Iridium

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Here is what top 49 looks like:

Winner's
Jw:ultgreninja: vs Leffen:ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf:
Myran:ultolimar: vs UtopianRay:ultpalutena:
Marss:ultzss: vs MuteAce:ultpeach:
Samsora:ultpeach: vs MattyG:ultchrom:
Daybreak:ultwolf: vs Ally:ultsnake:
Pelca:ultsnake: vs Phantom
Nairo:ultpalutena: vs MVD:ultsnake:
Dabuz:ultolimar: vs Dark Wizzy:ultmario:


Loser's
Shyguy vs MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
Gen:ultpalutena: vs Atomsk
ESAM:ultpikachu: vs Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
LingLing:ultpeach: vs CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
Dexter vs Mr E:ultlucina:
Mystearica:ultzelda: vs Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
ZD:ultfox: vs ANTi:ultmario:
Zinoto:ultpeach::ultdiddy: vs Salem:ultsnake:
Mr R:ultchrom: vs PkChris:ultness:
Riddles vs Suarez:ultyoshi:
Geist:ultbayonetta: vs Sinji:ultpacman:
Ice:ultwolf: vs burntsocks
Ryuga:ultike: vs MJ
Light:ultfox: vs Frozen:ultpalutena:
Puppeh:ultwolf::ultpokemontrainer: vs Goblin:ultroy:
BobbyWasabi vs Danbi
Phantom is a :ultpalutena:, Shyguy is a :ultpokemontrainer:, Atomsk is a :ultkingdedede:, BobbyWasabi is a :ultvillager:, Danbi uses :ultyoshi: (:ultzelda: too, but not sure for this tourney), MJ is a :ultrob:, burntsocks is a :ultyoshi:, Dexter is a :ultwolf:, and Riddles is a :ultrichter:.

Aside from that, this was not a good tourney for VoiD. However, I am curious to see how MattyG will fare against Samsora in the Peach MU. Looking out for how he handles his offstage play and what he favors onstage.
 
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I can't imagine reading over that list and the thing that most compels me to respond is the usage of female Robin over male Robin lol
In a way I understand how Arthur feels, given that it absolutely irks me when people use F!Corrin as the default when Smash Corrin's default gender is male(spoiler alert, I hate F!Corrin).
 
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So I checked yeti's Twitter, and he and other :ultmegaman: mains didn't feel much different at all with Mega Man.
Seems like the nerfs to him were overall pretty minimal, which is good.

I actually made a whole tweet thread talking about Mega Man in the new patch. Considering the fact that Yeti and Morpheus both won their stacked locals immediately after in the new patch as if nothing changed, I'm inclined to agree with the nerf not being nearly as detrimental as most seem to think it is. But as always, there were changes that ended up not being documented in Nintendo's Patch Notes on the site so I had to go for a more in-depth look. Feel free to click on the tweet itself to read the rest.

The main takeaway is the effect 3.0.0 had on his shield pressure and to Leaf Shield going into the future. Pellets and Metal Blade did get reduced shield damage which does hurt when you think about how his gameplan plays out, but when you combine the two moves together on top of all his other ways of pressuring shield through Uair, Dair, Fsmash, Crash Bomber, etc, it all still adds up pretty well. Even enough as to where this "universal projectile nerf" doesn't hit him nearly as hard as some other characters and he has enough tools to make up for or play around it. This is even before you factor in how good the fact that he has a normal grab is when combined with his moveset as a whole.

With 3 frames of endlag shaved off, parry is better against projectiles than before but this doesn't mean as much to Mega Man as you'd think since it's not the easiest or meaningful thing to do against pellets anyways. And in this patch, due to parry mechanic changes, it seems harder to "auto-parry" Metal Blade than it used to be; it's quite easy to still get hit by Blade, Uair or Crash Bomb even if you do attempt it.

As for Leaf Shield, 2 Frames off the start and end of the move changes a few things. Most notably is Leaf Shield OOS is slightly worse than before, but it's perfectly workable due to him already having good options in Rising Bair and Usmash OOS in particular which serves the same niche of covering crossups. Leaf Shield OOS is the same frame as Fair OOS now which means it just requires a little more care in which options are chosen and when. He can still do mixups off spotdodge or confirm into it with Metal Blade or make it relatively safe by jumping, running, or even footstooling away with it up.

He lost the ability to cancel an active Leaf Shield with a running forward toss but he still retains the ability to cancel it with Item Pickup (Metal Blade) or Upwards Toss. Which allows for pressure mixups such as this:

And finally, the most important change is an undocumented one:

This improves his approach and mixups due to him having much more control of moving forward with his aerials while retaining access to Metal Blade whether for aggressive followup/shield pressure or for defending himself afterwards with a Z-Drop or Blade Toss OOS.

Lastly, I want to bring up something that was noticed recently. The tweet is self-explanatory:

What interests me however is what it would mean if Mega Man could utilize this in a non-linear way with Metal Blade in his hand. Gonna look into it but I've already seen some progress in this aspect:
1119490947354509312 is not a valid tweet id

If it could be developed further than this it may have some real promising effects on his gameplay but for now, only time will tell.
 
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So that is 3 :ultsnake: and 3 :ultpalutena: In top 48 Winners side at Pound.

I used to think Snake and Palu as "gatekeepers" of high tier. In that they were at the top of high-tier but just not quite as good as the top-tiers
But recently I have to reconsider them both as top-tiers. :ultfox: still wrecks them both however, lol

Snake got small nerfs to Nikita and Up-Smash in 3.0.0 yes, but I dont think it will affect him much at all
 
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Gearkeeper-8a

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So that is 3 :ultsnake: and 3 :ultpalutena: In top 48 Winners side at Pound.

I used to think Snake and Palu as "gatekeepers" of high tier. In that they were at the top of high-tier but just not quite as good as the top-tiers
But recently I have to reconsider them both as top-tiers.

Snake got nerfs to Nikita and Up-Smash in 3.0.0 yes, but I dont think it will affect him much at all
I don't think we can say who is a gatekeeper because we don't know exactly what is the gap between top tiers and high tiers, even with 4 months of data we still question who is the very best. this didn't happen in any other smash.
 
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Here is what top 49 looks like:

Winner's
Jw:ultgreninja: vs Leffen:ultpichu::ultpokemontrainerf:
Myran:ultolimar: vs UtopianRay:ultpalutena:
Marss:ultzss: vs MuteAce:ultpeach:
Samsora:ultpeach: vs MattyG:ultchrom:
Daybreak:ultwolf: vs Ally:ultsnake:
Pelca:ultsnake: vs Phantom:ultpalutena:
Nairo:ultpalutena: vs MVD:ultsnake:
Dabuz:ultolimar: vs Dark Wizzy:ultmario:


Loser's
Shyguy:ultpokemontrainer: vs MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
Gen:ultpalutena: vs Atomsk:ultkingdedede:
ESAM:ultpikachu: vs Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
LingLing:ultpeach: vs CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
Dexter:ultwolf: vs Mr E:ultlucina:
Mystearica:ultzelda: vs Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
ZD:ultfox: vs ANTi:ultmario:
Zinoto:ultpeach::ultdiddy: vs Salem:ultsnake:
Mr R:ultchrom: vs PkChris:ultness:
Riddles:ultrichter: vs Suarez:ultyoshi:
Geist:ultbayonetta: vs Sinji:ultpacman:
Ice:ultwolf: vs burntsocks:ultyoshi:
Ryuga:ultike: vs MJ:ultrob:
Light:ultfox: vs Frozen:ultpalutena:
Puppeh:ultwolf::ultpokemontrainer: vs Goblin:ultroy:
BobbyWasabi:ultvillager: vs Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda:
I believe MattyG has been using Wolf for the tournament. At least, he has for the streamed sets.
 
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Seems like Joker's already made some waves in his first large scale regional at Ascension IV (256 entrants). MiSaiki placed 7th running solo Joker throughout the bracket while Stroder actually used the character as well, though he won the tournament using Greninja.
 

DelugeFGC

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What are the general thoughts on how this this shield / projectile stuff has ACTUALLY affected the meta? So far it seems it made a much smaller difference than I first anticipated, it only seems relevant in a few MU's (ROB is the only character I've seen truly get hurt by it, his projectile shield pressure was pretty important, but I don't play all the zoners) and overall isn't TOO big a deal.. but it's definitely changing some things.

I've found it's much harder for me to do some of my shield-break punish shenanigans with Olimar using the F/USmash > U/FSmash trick, now I just have to hope Purple USmash > Red USmash is enough to do it with the second USmash charging for a few frames. That's hard to do though, as it risks the shieldstun ending and them acting.. but it doesn't ruin his shieldbreak game, but it did make it harder. That said, his smash attacks actually functioning properly now has definitely made up for it, so I'd say overall he got neither a buff OR a nerf from this patch. He's about the same viability overall. If you can get some hitbox magic going with a charged DSmash (requires a read, but boy is it worth it) it does a METRIC ****load of damage (Purple / Yellow or Yellow / Red is somewhere in the ballpark of 45-55% if both hitboxes connect on a partial to full charge) now that charging his smashes actually works. Only works in certain MU's and requires a read, but it does so much damage in such a short amount of time it can't be ignored as an option, it's the perfect way to punish a predictable roll or getting off a quicker tech chase on a partial charge.
 
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Rizen

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What are the general thoughts on how this this shield / projectile stuff has ACTUALLY affected the meta?
Parries being faster vs projectiles is the main thing that affected YL because his projectiles were never good for shield breaks anyway. It's not a big change because they're rarely used. I feel sorry for characters like Samus who could break shields with big charged shots. Ironically YL got a slightly better MU vs them.
 

DelugeFGC

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Parries being faster vs projectiles is the main thing that affected YL because his projectiles were never good for shield breaks anyway. It's not a big change because they're rarely used. I feel sorry for characters like Samus who could break shields with big charged shots. Ironically YL got a slightly better MU vs them.
I've tried to get into the habit of making my FSmash's with Olimar not predictable enough to parry since before the patch, so on that end it didn't affect much on him.. but it definitely messed with his shield-break game. The window to pull it off is a lot tighter now, and can sometimes be escaped outright no matter how well you do your execution.

it is really useful to have a wall jump? (what is :ultjoker:'s fsmash's frame data because i find it somewhat fast or it's me?)
I think USmash is F10, DSmash F15 and FSmash is F16, but I could be wrong on that. FSmash is definitely the slowest and USmash the fastest, however. Also, yes, it is.. but it's situational.
 
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DelugeFGC

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Pretty sure the Gun is Frame 12 and Side B is Frame 16, the Counter Frame 3 and I do not know the Up B's data,

Outside of jab, grabs and DTilt Joker doesn't have a ton of immediate options, but he has an extremely fast (frame 3) counter that builds up to Arsene that makes up for this, WITH Arsene the counter is actually a pretty large threat due to how absurdly fast it comes out. Otherwise, Joker is more read-focused and about playing smart, his mobility OUTSIDE of frame data and his speed is all pretty good still.

I'd say he's actually in a pretty balanced, good place.
 
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DJ3DS

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What are the general thoughts on how this this shield / projectile stuff has ACTUALLY affected the meta? So far it seems it made a much smaller difference than I first anticipated, it only seems relevant in a few MU's (ROB is the only character I've seen truly get hurt by it, his projectile shield pressure was pretty important, but I don't play all the zoners) and overall isn't TOO big a deal.. but it's definitely changing some things.
ROB, really? Every ROB main I've spoken to is pretty happy about the patch as we were never getting shield breaks or pokes anyway - laser and gyro never did good shield damage. We use the projectiles to block off options, catch jumps and set traps. The projectile changes only reduce shield damage, not shieldstun, so Rob is largely unaffected.

I'd expect it to be more relevant to someone like Samus, whose projectiles did meaningful shield damage in the first place.
 

DelugeFGC

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All Joker's frame data's here.

There's counter-play to Joker. His tether recovery has to go directly under the ledge so you can use long lasting aerials there rather than chasing him offstage. Rebel Guard has 33f endlag so you can wait out the animation and smash on reaction.
The only time you're gonna get a Smash off is if Down B outright whiffs in my experience, if Joker pops RG on reaction due to how fast it comes out, there's not a ton of options you have. You still have to punish it precisely EVEN IF you can get out of endlag of whatever move you used in time to get through the startup of another, otherwise it's gonna feed RG more OR he'll have moved / potentially punished you.

It's a definite option, but I wouldn't call it a super consistent one. I've been using Down B more reactionary than on-read, and I've been getting better results outright. It has a lot of endlag / cooldown, yes, but it comes out HELLA fast so.. that matters.

ROB, really? Every ROB main I've spoken to is pretty happy about the patch as we were never getting shield breaks or pokes anyway - laser and gyro never did good shield damage. We use the projectiles to block off options, catch jumps and set traps. The projectile changes only reduce shield damage, not shieldstun, so Rob is largely unaffected.

I'd expect it to be more relevant to someone like Samus, whose projectiles did meaningful shield damage in the first place.
I don't play ROB really, but I have witnessed some multi-hit Laser > Gyro ****ery eat up shields quickly on many occasions. Gyro / Laser would weaken the shield, then Side B or DSmash could likely break it if they kept shielding. Now that's harder. I didn't say it was a BIG deal, but it does hurt his shield pressure some. I saw it mainly as a means to WEAKEN a shield before Side B finished it, but it wasn't like, a THING.

I will say, I definitely have seen ROB players (even in tournament) wreck a shield-happy player through a synergy of projectiles (typically Gyro) into conditioning into a Side B, now Gyro and Laser won't be damaging the shield as much, so Side B / DSmash is less likely to break it. But I'm not saying this was ever a big part of ROB's game to begin with, simply a potential option that's gone.

Don't listen to much I say relating to ROB, though. I haven't played him much, and he's legitimately one of my worst MU's (it's all the damned Gyro, I swear imo that thing is more annoying than Snake's grenades) which definitely means I don't know as much as I need to. I really need to learn him better, he's the only high tier that gives me consistent problems anymore between my mains / counterpicks.
 
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Omnos

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I'm pretty sure the projectile damage nerf affected Samus and DDD the most. They had decent shield break setups that don't work anymore. Overall the nerf feels good though, maybe not needed but shield being better vs projectiles is nice.
 

The_Bookworm

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I'm pretty sure the projectile damage nerf affected Samus and DDD the most. They had decent shield break setups that don't work anymore. Overall the nerf feels good though, maybe not needed but shield being better vs projectiles is nice.
Even from there, Samus' Charge Shot got stealth buffed in the fact that it is now safer on-shield.
Dedede's Gordos still does its job well, especially in ledge-trapping, so there is that.
 

Lavani

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afaik charge shot was only "buffed" in training, because prior to 3.0.0 training forced Spirits On which made it ignore hitlag modifiers. Might be wrong, but if you try it in a Spirits On game now it'll probably match the old numbers.

That said the shield damage nerfs also seem like they're minor; if they stop shield break setups from working on a perfectly healthy shield they should still pop one that's anything less than that. Seems more like a light QoL tap on the wrist than anything.

Parrying projectiles no longer being the worse option is great, on the other hand.
 
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We haven't really talked about Ike in a while, and while I suspect some may see that as telling in and of itself, this video ZeRo put out the other day seems like it brings up a decent point of conversation.


He feels that Ike is falling behind the meta due to a multitude of factors, chief of those being (in a condensed recap)

  • Incredibly linear neutral. His entire game plan revolves around hitting NAir, and if he can't hit it, he gives up his stage advantage to fish for a more defensive option like grab, dtilt or such. It leads to there being extremely little variance in playstyle between mid and top level Ike players.
  • Mediocre frame data. On ground, Ike's tools aren't the best, and in the air, a multitude of characters comprising the high tier and above have burst options to combat Ike's best options, almost all of which are his aerials. Ike's playstyle being so contingent on jumping is at odds with the fact that most characters won't let him jump.
  • Really bad disadvantage. Ike's only landing options are NAir and counter, and at the ledge he has some pretty mediocre recovery options, all of which require him to commit to a hard read that is punishable. This is of course compounded by his bad off-stage presence and recovery.
In essence, he suspects the character is going to drop in competitive representation as Ultimate moves to being a more nuanced game whereas Ike has comparatively a basic and stagnant meta that is generally unappealing to prospective players, on top of which his poor ledge-play, recovery, and edgeguarding are all sub-par when those elements become increasingly important to have.

The proposed solution here would be to fix his frame data on several moves to give him a little more of a flexible playstyle, but given the recent Smash patch (which came out after this video) seems to lean into the angle that balancing in this game seems more contingent on realigning characters to fit more into an "intended vision" rather than rounding out flaws, people might not want to hold their breath for a buff when it comes to him.
 
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We haven't really talked about Ike in a while, and while I suspect some may see that as telling in and of itself, this video ZeRo put out the other day seems like it brings up a decent point of conversation.


He feels that Ike is falling behind the meta due to a multitude of factors, chief of those being (in a condensed recap)

  • Incredibly linear neutral. His entire game plan revolves around hitting NAir, and if he can't hit it, he gives up his stage advantage to fish for a more defensive option like grab, dtilt or such. It leads to there being extremely little variance in playstyle between mid and top level Ike players.
  • Mediocre frame data. On ground, Ike's grounded tools aren't the best, and in the air, a multitude of characters comprising the high tier and above have burst options to combat Ike's best options, almost all of which are his aerials. Ike's playstyle being so contingent on jumping is at odds with the fact that most characters won't let him jump.
  • Really bad disadvantage. Ike's only landing options are NAir and counter, and at the ledge he has some pretty mediocre recovery options, all of which require him to commit to a hard read that is punishable.
In essence, he suspects the character is going to drop in competitive representation as Ultimate moves to being a more nuanced game whereas Ike has comparatively a basic and stagnant meta, on top of which his poor ledge-play, recovery, and edgeguarding are all sub-par when those elements become increasingly important to have.

Yea. People joke and meme that Ike is "nair" the character. But then it came to light that is kinda thrtruth. Nair is really only Ike's good neutral optiod n anywhere really and while its really good. It does make him super liner and predictable. The only reason all his other airiels are threatening is due how they can combo and kill-comfrim out of nair.

At least :ultpalutena: as a set of very strong and effective airiels even disregarding her own nair, and a decent ground options her dash-attack and strong grab game which is not that common in Ultimate
 
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after this event i kinda have to hop off the anti-snake train he's a top tier. and looking at this event it seems clear to me (regardless of how the final few rounds shake up) that peach is number one in smash ultimate. I like to form my character tier lists assuming optimization and not factoring in player error during matches.

peach excels in all forms of offense: grab mixups, killthrow, resets, juggling, drag downs, cross ups, and more. Peach's fair may be the best normal in the game. Nair and bair are exceptional as well.
her mobility allows her to form unique approaches there was a moment in the during pound where a peach short-hopped and floated over a pikachu projectile and spaced out fair for game (against ESAM of course). the movement and counter was super quick and it was an attack that no other character can even think of using.

even if defensively her lack of speed can lead her to be juggling and struggle to recover sometimes, offensively she is beyond most of the cast. SHe only has one bad normal overall (ftilt) and it isnt really bad it just is sorely lacking in comparison to her other tools.
 

DelugeFGC

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Think Peach and Daisy are a bit (just a bit, that's the keyword) overrated, honestly. Won't bother opening up Pandora's Box by expanding upon that though.
 
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Rizen

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We haven't really talked about Ike in a while, and while I suspect some may see that as telling in and of itself, this video ZeRo put out the other day seems like it brings up a decent point of conversation.


He feels that Ike is falling behind the meta due to a multitude of factors, chief of those being (in a condensed recap)

  • Incredibly linear neutral. His entire game plan revolves around hitting NAir, and if he can't hit it, he gives up his stage advantage to fish for a more defensive option like grab, dtilt or such. It leads to there being extremely little variance in playstyle between mid and top level Ike players.
  • Mediocre frame data. On ground, Ike's tools aren't the best, and in the air, a multitude of characters comprising the high tier and above have burst options to combat Ike's best options, almost all of which are his aerials. Ike's playstyle being so contingent on jumping is at odds with the fact that most characters won't let him jump.
  • Really bad disadvantage. Ike's only landing options are NAir and counter, and at the ledge he has some pretty mediocre recovery options, all of which require him to commit to a hard read that is punishable. This is of course compounded by his bad off-stage presence and recovery.
In essence, he suspects the character is going to drop in competitive representation as Ultimate moves to being a more nuanced game whereas Ike has comparatively a basic and stagnant meta that is generally unappealing to prospective players, on top of which his poor ledge-play, recovery, and edgeguarding are all sub-par when those elements become increasingly important to have.

The proposed solution here would be to fix his frame data on several moves to give him a little more of a flexible playstyle, but given the recent Smash patch (which came out after this video) seems to lean into the angle that balancing in this game seems more contingent on realigning characters to fit more into an "intended vision" rather than rounding out flaws, people might not want to hold their breath for a buff when it comes to him.
Ike gets combos off grab and Dtilt too right? His f4 jab is also very good so I think ZeRo's underrating his ground game. Ike's a very strait forward character but so are Wolf, Lucina and Palutena. IMO Ike's main problem is he's a high tier living in a top tier world. That and mediocre mobility. Players like MKLeo have moved on to greener pastures with Wolf. Ike's not bad at all, he's just not as good as some characters.
 
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Ike gets combos off grab and Dtilt too right? His f4 jab is also very good so I think ZeRo's underrating his ground game. Ike's a very strait forward character but so are Wolf, Lucina and Palutena. IMO Ike's main problem is he's a high tier living in a top tier world. That and mediocre mobility. Players like MKLeo have moved on to greener pastures with Wolf. Ike's not bad at all, he's just not as good as some characters.
His great grab combos are brought up in the video and DTilt is indeed a good combo starter. The issue with those tools is that as far as aggressive options go they're not ideal. NAir is always going to be Ike's default approach option to anything because it's safe on block, has good range and has very little landing lag. The logic here is that when coupled with pretty mediocre frame data, those are the only other solid options Ike has in neutral once NAir stops working, which isn't particularly ideal and makes him kind of an open book in terms of game plan. Essentially he's pretty beholden to a dominant strategy.

I feel the main insinuation is less that he was bad and more that sentiments have kind of shifted on him, and less in a "this character I played day one was actually not good all along (i.e K. Rool)" but more "this character that has actual results to his name is probably going to drop because of the way the meta game may be shifting".
 

Rizen

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His great grab combos are brought up in the video and DTilt is indeed a good combo starter. The issue with those tools is that as far as aggressive options go they're not ideal. NAir is always going to be Ike's default approach option to anything because it's safe on block, has good range and has very little landing lag. The logic here is that when coupled with pretty mediocre frame data, those are the only other solid options Ike has in neutral once NAir stops working, which isn't particularly ideal and makes him kind of an open book in terms of game plan. Essentially he's pretty beholden to a dominant strategy.

I feel the main insinuation is less that he was bad and more that sentiments have kind of shifted on him, and less in a "this character I played day one was actually not good all along (i.e K. Rool)" but more "this character that has actual results to his name is probably going to drop because of the way the meta game may be shifting".
I haven't seen the video but still say ZeRo's underrating Ike's ground game. Ike has good footsies between his grab, f4 jab and big disjointed tilts. Yes Nair is the best approach but that doesn't make his ground game bad. I've seen Ikes play a fortress style ground game that revolved around spacing his sword with pivots and quick jabs/grabs as GTFOs and it worked well. Ike's hard to get in on and he controls a lot of space. This also makes his advantage state one of the best in the game.

But like I said there are better characters pushing him out of the meta like Palutena and Lucina.
This is what Pound 2019 top 8 looks like:

Winner's
Myran:ultolimar: vs Samsora:ultpeach:
Ally:ultsnake: vs Dabuz:ultolimar:

Loser's
MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina: vs Salem:ultsnake::ultlink:
Marss:ultzss: vs MVD:ultsnake:


Triple Snakes and double Olimars. Interesting top 8.
It's nice to see Salem doing well after realitively low results at the Prime Saga, and using Link too. Same goes for Marss. It's hard to be consistent in Ultimate.
 
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