Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Phoenix_is_OK

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Yeah I think it is time for the "Snake isn't a top tier" meme to die. While he has some horrible matchups, he also has some of the most polarizing matches in his favor as well. Hell, sometime side B alone is the whole character lol. He has potentially some of the safest edgeguarding in the game, the best camping game, a frame 1 move that resets the neutral, solid throws, several kill options that come before frame 9, an outstanding anti-air game, crazy shield pressure, etc.

He's several characters worst matchup. Can't approach? Can't edgeguard? Super reliant on combos for killing? Struggle killing? Not uber-fast? Poor recovery? Chances are Snake wins. He only really struggles against specific characters in the game, while I'd argue he has much more matches that are straight in his favor than Peach.

His poor recovery doesn't seem to stop him, and the results prove it.
 
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What are Snake’s “horrible matchups?”
I could be wrong, but, in short:

:ultpikachu::ultfox: rush Snake down hard and prevent him from getting any of his projectile pressure started. Pikachu is also a monster against him offstage.

:ultgnw::ultmegaman: have really strong answers to his projectiles and juggle him for days, especially with their up airs.

Ally posted a match-up chart a while back and he had Fox, G&W, and Mega Man as -1 matchups, I believe.
 
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What are :ultolimar:'s bad MUs (if any)? :ultpeach: maybe?
A video from Myran is on Youtube. The result can be seen at the very end and character specific explanations are also given.

Out of intuition, I'd say fast characters like :ultfox: and :ultgreninja: have a good position against Olimar and other zoning/defensive characters (:ultmegaman::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultzelda:) and this seems to overlap with his MU chart. Richter is probably better because his Holy Water has no fire properties.
 
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I could be wrong, but, in short:

:ultpikachu::ultfox: rush Snake down hard and prevent him from getting any of his projectile pressure started. Pikachu is also a monster against him offstage.

:ultgnw::ultmegaman: have really strong answers to his projectiles and juggle him for days, especially with their up airs.

I think Ally posted a match-up chart a while back and he had Fox, G&W, and Mega Man as -1 matchups, I believe.
Adding onto this, kinda like with Olimar its been brought up before that Ike is a MU that Snake loses. Not by a large amount, but Snake can't out tank Ike in grenade damage due to having the same weight, both have very similar killing power, both screw each other's recovery over. Ike has disjointed range, Snake has his projectiles. The disjointed range comes into play more.
 

Kiligar

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People underrating Snake is silly. Prepatch Nikita invalidated over half the recoveries in the game. Post patch Nikita still invalidates a good third, and makes many more struggle. When snake takes your stock before you take his? Better have one of the easiest kill confirms in the game or your percent will be red before you know it. His up tilt is broken. No really, it’s not properly balanced. Not saying they should or will nerf it, but hitting like an up smash with the safety of a Tilt is comical. It’s like Olimar’s up smash without the light floaty character who needs pikmin management, and Olimar is the best in the game post patch. Pre patch Snake was the 3rd best character in the game from my perspective. The only thing against him were his few bad matchups, otherwise fighting a good Snake didn’t feel like you could even play the game. Snake is a top tier.

On the topic of underrated characters, where’s Yoshi? Can someone explain to me his weaknesses. The only convincing one is the matchup vs swordies but aside from that please hear me out. He has the highest air speed in the game. His grounded speed is ludicrous as well. He has super armor on his double jump, and perhaps the best long range grab in the game, due to the amount of percent he can rack on while you’re in the egg at high percent. He’s heavier in weight than average, yet his hurt box isn’t too cumbersome. He has a very good projectile, which was recently nerfed against shield, but still has combos off of it if it hits. In addition to the air speed, a multi hit Dair and a strong fair make for easy edgegaurds. The only weakness is his interactions with the ledge as far as I understand. What are the dinosaur’s weaknesses. If one can’t be provided then he should be top 10.
 
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People underrating Snake is silly. Prepatch Nikita invalidated over half the recoveries in the game. Post patch Nikita still invalidates a good third, and makes many more struggle. When snake takes your stock before you take his? Better have one of the easiest kill confirms in the game or your percent will be red before you know it. His up tilt is broken. No really, it’s not properly balanced. Not saying they should or will nerf it, but hitting like an up smash with the safety of a Tilt is comical. It’s like Olimar’s up smash without the light floaty character who needs pikmin management, and Olimar is the best in the game post patch. Pre patch Snake was the 3rd best character in the game from my perspective. The only thing against him were his few bad matchups, otherwise fighting a good Snake didn’t feel like you could even play the game. Snake is a top tier.

On the topic of underrated characters, where’s Yoshi? Can someone explain to me his weaknesses. The only convincing one is the matchup vs swordies but aside from that please hear me out. He has the highest air speed in the game. His grounded speed is ludicrous as well. He has super armor on his double jump, and perhaps the best long range grab in the game, due to the amount of percent he can rack on while you’re in the egg at high percent. He’s heavier in weight than average, yet his hurt box isn’t too cumbersome. He has a very good projectile, which was recently nerfed against shield, but still has combos off of it if it hits. In addition to the air speed, a multi hit Dair and a strong fair make for easy edgegaurds. The only weakness is his interactions with the ledge as far as I understand. What are the dinosaur’s weaknesses. If one can’t be provided then he should be top 10.

Yoshi's weakness.

Can struggle vs swords and sometimes strong zoners like :ultyounglink::ultsnake: despite his great air mobility
Can be edgeguarded and fairly easily ifhe gets caught without his double jump offstage
Sometimes just has a hard time taking stocks without the right read

Yoshi has had some decent results. I say he can potentially be high-tier. But not top 10 material unfortunately
 
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ligersandtigons

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Havent been following the competitive scene much for this game cuz of school, but what's a good general list for the current top 10 players and their mains?

  1. MkLeo - Wolf
  2. Tweek - Wario?
  3. Nairo - Palutena
  4. Light - Fox
  5. Zackray - Wolf
  6. Dabuz - Olimar
  7. Samsora - Peach
  8. VoiD - Pichu
  9. Cosmos - Inkling
  10. Ally - Snake
would this be a pretty fair list??
 

HotelSoapy

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Havent been following the competitive scene much for this game cuz of school, but what's a good general list for the current top 10 players and their mains?

  1. MkLeo - Wolf
  2. Tweek - Wario?
  3. Nairo - Palutena
  4. Light - Fox
  5. Zackray - Wolf
  6. Dabuz - Olimar
  7. Samsora - Peach
  8. VoiD - Pichu
  9. Cosmos - Inkling
  10. Ally - Snake
would this be a pretty fair list??
Samsora should be #2 or 3. MVD is the best Snake.
 

SwagGuy99

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Yoshi's weakness.

Can struggle vs swords and sometimes strong zoners like :ultyounglink::ultsnake: despite his great air mobility
Can be edgeguarded and fairly easily ifhe gets caught without his double jump offstage
Sometimes just has a hard time taking stocks without the right read

Yoshi has had some decent results. I say he can potentially be high-tier. But not top 10 material unfortunately
I think that :ultyoshi: also struggles against fast projectiles somewhat but when you can just jump and rush at opponents with your super fast air speed, it's not nearly as bad of an issue as it would be otherwise.

Havent been following the competitive scene much for this game cuz of school, but what's a good general list for the current top 10 players and their mains?

  1. MkLeo - Wolf
  2. Tweek - Wario?
  3. Nairo - Palutena
  4. Light - Fox
  5. Zackray - Wolf
  6. Dabuz - Olimar
  7. Samsora - Peach
  8. VoiD - Pichu
  9. Cosmos - Inkling
  10. Ally - Snake
would this be a pretty fair list??
Esam with :ultpikachu: maybe?
 
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Myran and Shuton are pretty strong top 10 right now. Myran 9th GENESIS, 3rd Frostbite, 17th Prime Saga, and now 5th at worst at Pound. Shuton 13th GENESIS, 4th Frostbite, 1st Prime Saga.

ESAM with 65th Frostbite, 33rd Prime Saga, and 25th Pound? 7th GENESIS but still not enough to be top 10 right now. Ally probably isn't top 10 unless he does really well at Pound, and even then Shuton should probably be higher since he won Prime Saga.

We could potentially have three Olimar mains in top 10.
 
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I can see Tea :ultpacman: being ranked among them, the guy did fantastic at Frostbite and even better at Prime Saga.

Same applies for Marss :ultzss:, outside of a slightly low placement at Prime Saga, the guy has a really solid track record.

A bit of stretch, but I could potentially see Dark Wizzy :ultmario: rising up among the strongest, ever since Suplex City, the dude’s been really stepping up his game, and placed very well at Pound (13th) just recently.
 
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This is just basing on current ranking, I'm not making predictions for what top 10 will look like in a few months.

I don't think Tea has been to enough S and A-tier tournaments to be top 10 right now, especially considering his best placement is 5th at Prime Saga.

Marss is a strong player, but 25th at GENESIS, 17th at Frostbite, 25th Prime Saga means he's probably not top 10 right now. Maybe he'll do really well at Pound (7th if he loses to MVD, 5th is he wins vs MVD and loses vs Ally/Dabuz, 4th if he wins that one but loses to MkLeo/Salem/Myran/Samsora, 3rd if he wins that but loses to Myran/Samsora/Ally/Dabuz, 2nd if he gets to Grand Finals and loses, 1st if he beats everyone from here on out).
 

$.A.F.

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Havent been following the competitive scene much for this game cuz of school, but what's a good general list for the current top 10 players and their mains?

  1. MkLeo - Wolf
  2. Tweek - Wario?
  3. Nairo - Palutena
  4. Light - Fox
  5. Zackray - Wolf
  6. Dabuz - Olimar
  7. Samsora - Peach
  8. VoiD - Pichu
  9. Cosmos - Inkling
  10. Ally - Snake
would this be a pretty fair list??
Ally shouldn’t be there tbh. Doesn’t have the results or big wins not even mentioning he’s possibly not even one of the top two snakes what with Salem and MVD.
 

NotLiquid

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Adding onto this, kinda like with Olimar its been brought up before that Ike is a MU that Snake loses. Not by a large amount, but Snake can't out tank Ike in grenade damage due to having the same weight, both have very similar killing power, both screw each other's recovery over. Ike has disjointed range, Snake has his projectiles. The disjointed range comes into play more.
This post is somewhat funny in hindsight given that Salem just 3-1'd MKLeo. Regardless I think he had the right idea going Ike for the MU.
 

ON-2

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Trust me man nobody sleeping on the FE Gang lol. It's pretty clear they're the early game meta picks.

:150:
As someone who spent a lot of time thinking about ROB's metagame position in Sm4sh, I'll weigh in with some pessimism on ROB's results right now. ROB is always good early in a smash game's life, because the spammable projectiles, easy kill moves, and shorthop nair are hard for everyone to deal with when no one is good at the new shield options and the new neutral game. Not only that, but when people are clumsy and unoptimized with their juggles and advantage state, ROB can get out of jail free when he's juggled right now, when he really shouldn't. The same goes for edgeguarding too: people still don't know how deep they can go to hit recovering characters, so ROB's easy-to-edgeguard recovery isn't getting exploited like it should.

As the playerbase gets better at aggression, edgeguards, and parrying, expect ROB's viability to go down.
Agree. Recovery buff is nice and helps, but Corrins neutral is still extremely meh with Pin and DFS being so bad; the same nerfs also neuter her ability to kill and on top of it he kill throws have also been gutted; moreover, her damage per hit is far too low despite the fact that she gets so many free strings from several of her attacks. The patch kinda didn't even begin to fix her issues other than in the recovery department.


I really would like to hear an explanation on what they were thinking nerfing her as hard as they did.
So I checked yeti's Twitter, and he and other :ultmegaman: mains didn't feel much different at all with Mega Man.
Seems like the nerfs to him were overall pretty minimal, which is good.
Yeah the changes suck but at the end Megaman can live with them. People just knee jerked (including MM mains) and assumed that he was dead. I think it just goes to show just how little the character is understood by the majority of the community. Can't say that's unreasonable though since Megaman requires a fair bit of effort and has a unpopular playstyle.
 

Kiligar

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Speaking of lists, based on my knowledge and knowledge from others I’ve come up with an “example” tier list, which means each tier has three representatives. The representatives may not be perfect, but that’s what peer comments are for.
S tier- Olimar, Pichu, Peach

A tier- Snake, Lucina, Wario

B tier- Falco, Pit, Mario

C tier- Zelda, Kirby, Robin

D tier-Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr, Isabelle

F tier- Little Mac, Little, Mac
(His name wasn’t even mentioned in the patch. They could’ve at least tweaked the side B so you can do it after getting hit)
That’s my list, you may agree with some and disagree with others. I think the plant might be C tier but that’s up for discussion.
 
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This post is somewhat funny in hindsight given that Salem just 3-1'd MKLeo. Regardless I think he had the right idea going Ike for the MU.
From what I heard in the other thread, playing while mad sick so that would do a number. But yeah I'd imagine Ike does better than Wolf or Lucina in the MU.

That's generally where I feel Ike as a whole is headed. Had his large spike to start off Ultimate's lifespan, is going to have an over exaggerated demise from the whiplash of people figuring out how to go around his general game plan, and then as time goes on people will want an easy secondary to pick up for going up against Snake and Olimar, start combing from the top down, end up on Ike and go "huh, he'd be pretty easy to learn and he has a slight advantage against them... why not?". End up as a high tier that's used as a counter pick option a fair bit: even if you know Ike's game plan some characters can't capitalize on it well.

For bonus points, he also does fairly well against Peach/Daisy. Don't know if that's a MU you'd pick up Ike as a secondary for though, you got to be really on point because Peach/Daisy just blow up any Ike that doesn't know what they're doing.
 

Rizen

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Yoshi's weakness.

Can struggle vs swords and sometimes strong zoners like :ultyounglink::ultsnake: despite his great air mobility
Can be edgeguarded and fairly easily ifhe gets caught without his double jump offstage
Sometimes just has a hard time taking stocks without the right read

Yoshi has had some decent results. I say he can potentially be high-tier. But not top 10 material unfortunately
Yoshi's one of my most played MUs as YL because they're everywhere. I can say Yoshi has a disadvantage in the MU. Yoshi's reward for getting in isn't as high as other high or top tiers and he struggles in neutral. YL's projectiles outclass eggs significantly and YL's sword zones him in CQC. YL basically controls 80% of the game and gets great reward off his conversions, which are largely safe. I think Yoshi's shown up enough to be a solid high tier but this is one MU where he doesn't have a good answer to YL.

Interestingly, I think YL loses to Wario, another high mobility small heavyweight. Something about Wario's rushdown is more smothering than Yoshi's. It would probably be even but Wario lives forever and can kill YL at 70% every 2 minutes with Waft. Wario kills better than Yoshi without it too. Wario's just better than Yoshi :/
 
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Myran was so close during both sets vs Ally. It's just those last minute interactions in those last stock situations that really got him from low percents to death while having a sizeable lead (the combo into uair in the former and the boot in the latter).
Great top 8 overall imo despite the complaints of low level viewers, lots of game 5s and really tough scenarios.
I think the ZSS perception is not gonna change much despite Marss' insane losers run (it'll get chalked up to Marss being Marss).
Snake did fantastic this weekend thanks to the efforts of Pelca, MVD, Salem and of course Pound winner Ally. Any notions that "Snake sucks" are definitely put to bed.
Olimar is now the best character in the game (thanks 3.0).
 
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What are Snake’s “horrible matchups?”
keep your eye on rosalina as well. it may not be a relevant bad mu but that looked horrible for snake. dabuz made a mistake offstage and lost but ally entire gameplan was deleted by gravitational pull.

i'd also add ness to the list of bad MUs for snake, but like rosa not a true tournament present character as of now.

if you play a character that has a -3 or -4 matchup with an irrelevant character it basically doesn't exist.

i just need to add this is why i like dabuz, i feel like he actually learns and experiments with the game.
 
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keep your eye on rosalina as well. it may not be a relevant bad mu but that looked horrible for snake. dabuz made a mistake offstage and lost but ally entire gameplan was deleted by gravitational pull.
Looked like a pretty even MU or slight Snake advantage to me, from what I saw. Sure, Snake gets less from grenades but Rosa also seemed to struggle to kill Snake, killing him around 150-200%, while Snake could fairly easily kill both Luma and Rosa. Ally and Shogun put it as even, MVD as +1 for Snake.

Ness probably doesn't beat Snake, either. Ally thinks it's Even, MVD Even or +1 Snake, Shogun -1 Snake. S1 thinks Ness wins it +1 while BestNess has it as Even.
 

$.A.F.

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So what’s your opinion on PAC-MAN? Dude’s an enigma. Ranked like a mid or low tier consistently, but gets really good tournament results. Especially Sinji and Tea who have consistently made or got close to top 8s at majors.
 
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So what’s your opinion on PAC-MAN? Dude’s an enigma. Ranked like a mid or low tier consistently, but gets really good tournament results. Especially Sinji and Tea who have consistently made or got close to top 8s at majors.
I find Pac-Man to be slightly gravitating towards high tier. His results, combo game, frame data, and potential for growth are all quite impressive. The stuff that Sinji and Tea can do is completely crazy, and I can see Pac only getting better as time goes on.
 
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I think Ally just was a bit caught off-guard by how Dabuz played Rosaluma. I wouldn't say that MU is in Rosa's favor by only one showing.
 
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Mikazuki

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Hmmm... Don't the Belmonts do well against Olimar? I remember Shuton doing well with him against Myran. (Or was it the other way around? I don't remember lol)
Myran won against Shuton's Olimar, but it still gave him a lot of trouble. Axe and holy water come at a weird angle for Olimar to intercept it. Axe cuts through Pikmin like butter and it's long lasting hitbox makes it hard to whiste through it. Dabuz agrees that Belmonts are a bad MU. He also thinks Zelda is a tough MU for Olimar.
 
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Nemesis561

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So what’s your opinion on PAC-MAN? Dude’s an enigma. Ranked like a mid or low tier consistently, but gets really good tournament results. Especially Sinji and Tea who have consistently made or got close to top 8s at majors.
In my opinion, Pac man is easily high tier. In smash 4 I felt like he was a giant gimmick, way too overly reliant on setups and the opponent lacking matchup experience. In this game his buff to his grab and followups off grab demand respect, as well as good normals allow him to not necessarily be so reliant on only setups.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but his smash attacks seem better in this game. His f smash in particular lingers for quite a while and has decent cool down (for an f smash) which allows him to net some much needed early kills. Back throw also kills at a respectable percent. In smash 4, opponents would regularly live up until 150+ vs pac man, while he would have to scramble to find a kill. But in this game it seems as if Pac man has a bit of an easier time getting earlier kills, allowing him to play with a lead which is extremely difficult for the opponent to deal with
 
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Birdy974

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Looked like a pretty even MU or slight Snake advantage to me, from what I saw. Sure, Snake gets less from grenades but Rosa also seemed to struggle to kill Snake, killing him around 150-200%, while Snake could fairly easily kill both Luma and Rosa. Ally and Shogun put it as even, MVD as +1 for Snake.

Ness probably doesn't beat Snake, either. Ally thinks it's Even, MVD Even or +1 Snake, Shogun -1 Snake. S1 thinks Ness wins it +1 while BestNess has it as Even.
I actually think since the last update Snake loses to Ness because his magnet destroys nikita most of the time now
 
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Re: Ness

I play Ness and I think he is high tier at a minimum. I also think his weaknesses are very real and pronounced, though he isn't helpless in most scenarios. He seems weak to projectile zoners to me (the Links and Belmontish characters, in particular) but he's not helpless here as he does have a great advantage state against those characters and Magnet pressure is also pretty good against them. Magnet also can help him to get inside.

What I like about Ness is that he can get absurd reward from reads in most situations. His ability to devastate on a defensive read is best in class. If you roll, Ness will kill you. If you airdodge and Ness knows the direction you're going, Ness will kill you. If you take the same route recovering twice, Ness will kill you. If you're a player who likes to make hard reads or even "soft" reads that cover multiple options at once, Ness is a great pick for you.

His recovery is admittedly an issue, but the weakness is mitigated a bit by his airdodge, Magnet stalling, b-reverses to add some unpredictability to his trajectory, and his ability to recover high and low from relatively far distances.

He's really short when he crouches, so you can use this to be pretty annoying to some of the sword characters (crouch when they approach and punish on whiff).

I think ness seems quite good, very strong. Maybe not on the same level as Peach and Pichu etc., but certainly not far behind either.
 
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Looked like a pretty even MU or slight Snake advantage to me, from what I saw. Sure, Snake gets less from grenades but Rosa also seemed to struggle to kill Snake, killing him around 150-200%, while Snake could fairly easily kill both Luma and Rosa. Ally and Shogun put it as even, MVD as +1 for Snake.

Ness probably doesn't beat Snake, either. Ally thinks it's Even, MVD Even or +1 Snake, Shogun -1 Snake. S1 thinks Ness wins it +1 while BestNess has it as Even.
they are basing that MU based on what experience? this one match is the only data we have to go on for high level rosa in ultimate's 3 months.
That didnt look even it depended on player error for that outcome. yes rosa will kill snake late but snake wasnt even doing damage for large portions of the game which is unsettling for the snake. snake has to commit to dash attack or ftilt to kill luma.

MVD has been abosolutely rocked by Aweestin so when it comes to the ness MU saying snake wins seems really questionable to me. I thought MVD had lost to other high level ness players as well like bestness and FOW. (i could be wrong about this)
 
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