Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Browny

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Sigh. Are people still saying Joker's combos are bad? Well don't take it from me, let's hear what VoiD has to say.
And this was a very rough, Day 2 guide. As in, not everything here is fully optimized yet. Despite that this video already has Uair loops and kill confirms, even if it doesn't go super in depth on them.

If Joker's combos are "below average" I want to know what average is supposed to be.
No DI and relying on a grounded dair as a 'kill confirm' barely counts, a lot of characters can do that but its way too telegraphed.
 

Zachmac

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No DI and relying on a grounded dair as a 'kill confirm' barely counts, a lot of characters can do that but its way too telegraphed.
The fast faller dropping down on you with the potential to do a tomahawk grab fake out instead isn't exactly what I'd call telegraphed but okay.

I'm experimenting with some of these combos with CPU shuffling set to high right now. I'm kind of an amateur but I'm able to land Fair 1 -> Up Smash and kill Mario at 110% on FD pretty consistently.
 

Siledh

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Honestly, in most cases the damage is miniscule enough that it doesn't matter. Joker gets much more off getting Arsene than someone does landing a projectile.
True, but I am talking as a Link main. 12-18% from fully charged arrow(s) is nothing to scoff at. Hell, even the 6/8/9.6% from the boomerang is pretty damaging. Yea, it is a trade off. Take the damage yo get Arsene more quickly, but it is not free and shouldn't be treated as such. Especially as the knockback side effect doesn't effect zoners.

Now Arsene's reflector and counter are something to worry about as a zoner. The change up requires a different game plan from a zoner and is quite the useful tool in punishing camping/spam and over relience in general on projectiles.
 

Browny

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Having that mixup is only scary if both options lead to kills.

If an enemy seems Joker coming in from the air and thinks "If I expect grab and get daired for not shielding, i lose a stock. but if I shield and I get grabbed, I get thrown and I don't lose a stock" suddenly it becomes very obvious what the better option is. If the joker player responds by predicting more shields and goes for grabs more often that has simply made the joker player more predictable while not increasing the likelihood of them converting that approach to a KO.

This is why a character like pichu is absolutely terrifying. If he lands in front of you and grabs, you can die at 80 to uthrow thunder. Or he doesn't grab, and instead ftilts and you also die at a fairly average %. They can mix it up all day and you have to guess right, or you might lose your stock.

The ability to so-called 'kill confirm' is greatly overblown. What matters is how many options a character has to lead to various kill confirms. Having one confirm only makes you telegraphed and predictable. Plant has an absolutely brutal confirm in dair-usmash which can KO at like 70%. Pity its so obvious when its coming, so what good is it?
 

DelugeFGC

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No DI and relying on a grounded dair as a 'kill confirm' barely counts, a lot of characters can do that but its way too telegraphed.
Man literally explains how different stuff he shows can go for different types of DI's, and considering who he is I'd say he knows to consider it.

I didn't like him myself, I was out here saying he's low tier, but that's a pretty piss argument.
 

Zachmac

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Having that mixup is only scary if both options lead to kills.

If an enemy seems Joker coming in from the air and thinks "If I expect grab and get daired for not shielding, i lose a stock. but if I shield and I get grabbed, I get thrown and I don't lose a stock" suddenly it becomes very obvious what the better option is. If the joker player responds by predicting more shields and goes for grabs more often that has simply made the joker player more predictable while not increasing the likelihood of them converting that approach to a KO.

This is why a character like pichu is absolutely terrifying. If he lands in front of you and grabs, you can die at 80 to uthrow thunder. Or he doesn't grab, and instead ftilts and you also die at a fairly average %. They can mix it up all day and you have to guess right, or you might lose your stock.

The ability to so-called 'kill confirm' is greatly overblown. What matters is how many options a character has to lead to various kill confirms. Having one confirm only makes you telegraphed and predictable. Plant has an absolutely brutal confirm in dair-usmash which can KO at like 70%. Pity its so obvious when its coming, so what good is it?
Okay, I'll admit I wasn't prepared for this to turn into an actual viability argument so I'm gonna dip out here. I was just trying to clarify that yes, Joker has good combos. Whether or not his neutral is good, I'm not confident enough in my opinion on him to say. I haven't played or observed him enough to really say so I'll leave that argument to others. I just wanted people to get their facts straight - Joker does not have a "bad" or "below average" combo game and I don't see how anyone can seriously keep arguing that.

Although it's still worth mentioning that even if a grab doesn't kill it can still reward you by setting up for an edge guard, ledge trap or just giving you stage control. Sure not nearly as good as actually killing but still not that bad. It's also worth noting that Joker's mobility is also much better then the Plant's so I'm still not sure if that's a fair comparison (plant's horizontal air mobility is objectively worse then Charizard's).
 
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Rizen

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6-0 and a handshake. Btw, not sure why they put Joker in the thumbnail for ESAM considering that he was on screen for 2 minutes at most.


He got some decent buffs in the patch, but he far from the most buffed character in the patch.
Anyone who thinks Ness isn't high tier needs to watch that set. PKT2 is crazy.
Remember when people thought Wolf couldn't kill to save his life?

I'm not about to say Joker is in that same boat entirely, but there's no way in hell frame data/a kit like his puts him anywhere lower than mid tier at the worst.
A lot of that was coming from SSB4 we were used to Sheik and Diddy having having quick, low commitment confirms like Dtilt>Fair/Usmash. Wolf throwing out a f14 Dsmash didn't seem that great but Ultimate is a much safer game for that sort of thing.

I've been finding some success utilizing smashes as YL. Sometimes it's good to throw out strong hitboxes at kill %s; Mario players do it with Usmash all the time.
 
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Seriously, Awestin and FOW make me more and more thinking that Ness is high high-tier if not gatekeeper to top-Tier. He doesextremely well against both electric mice and Wolf has to drop his Blaster nearly completely. He can also absorb tons of Palutena's stuff. Anyway, Ness players keep getting better with him nearly every week.
This character is so good if played correctly but I see why people are still wary of that since FOW doesn't really go to bigger tourneys it seems (nearly all of his local scene was at Prime Saga except him. Not knowing so much about Awestin but I have only seen him in those Shockwave videos.
 

Diddy Kong

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Ness is pretty great yeah, and definitely solo viable. I would also estimate him as a solid high tier. Awestine is really making him work. But ESAM in that set made way too many mistakes. Still good play from Awestine though.

What do we think of the buffed versions of Corrin, Diddy, Sheik and Mewtwo now by the way? They seem to have been buffed quite a lot... are they now comparable at least to their Smash 4 selves?
 

Browny

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Man literally explains how different stuff he shows can go for different types of DI's, and considering who he is I'd say he knows to consider it.

I didn't like him myself, I was out here saying he's low tier, but that's a pretty piss argument.
The uthrow drag down combos are only barely true at low % and require you to follow the enemies DI every time. cross up dair into a grab is good, I didn't know it always did that so its probably decently safe to use in neutral. But A lightweight, combo focused character with an iffy recovery needs to be doing more than 15-35% combos off an opening. Everything is relative, and combos need to be rated with the additional relevance to a characters weight and/or range. You've got peach, wolf, pichu, fox, palu etc all regularly doing 35% without them needing to rely on a risky approach tool. I genuinely feel like his combos aren't enough to make up for his problems, and having your combo starter being an unsafe-on-block tool is a big deal. Sheik was absolutely oppressive in smash 4 because her fair was her combo starter, while also being completely safe to spam in neutral where she would either trade, or be safe. Same with Ikes nair here, he can generally just throw it out where the situation is reset, or he wins.

I can admit I was surprised by some of those combos he showed off, but there needs to be safe set ups into everything there for it to matter much.

Combo characters need to have multiple avenues to open up their combos, or their entire gameplan is just fishing for that one hit and then its easy to counter them. Think or Ryu/Ken, all they really have to approach with is nair and sure if it hits they can get absurd follow ups or just KO you at 60, but its too risky to be relied upon as your only option. If joker loses the lead early, I don't see how hes going to have an easy time forcing the issue to get his combos started.

I dont hate/like Joker or anything. I'm just seeing a lot of people theorycrafting how good he is with little regard to the opponents counterplay options. And when you are dealing with short range, unsafe on block approaches, the counterplay is often very strong. And I didn't see any of that from Void. I get its a combo showcase, but as far as I'm concerned, combo showcases need to factor in how hard it is to get them. There was no shortage of combo showcases for Greninja in smash 4 which were insane, but they all relied on nair. As soon as people were like 'why dont I like... shield this' and suddenly Greninja fell into irrelevance. In this game, that's the story of Ike. He started out incredible with those busted combos until people figured out how to not fall into it.

I believe Jokers biggest area of potential is people managing Arsene and not 'wasting' it which can be a problem when you can't control when it comes out. That might mean deliberately charging it, and using it early and mid stock, so that way it doesn't automatically come out when the enemy is at like, 60% and its effectiveness isn't the best. You want it to come out when the enemy is above 90, and you especially don't want to get KO'd before making use of its KO ability.
 
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DelugeFGC

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I think the dude is HT now, not even gonna lie, I think we all (myself included) were too eager to put him into a box he didn't belong in. The character genuinely has a lot of potential, especially off the edge (the vertical range on his tether is honestly disgusting, he can get away doing Melee Sheik levels of deep edge guard ****) and once you LEARN his combo game, he has literally zero issue building %. Arsene is mad easy to get out with a couple of reads or just eating a combo or two, and then he has kill confirms or easy enough read options for kills. He can gimp like crazy, too, because of said edge game.

You can't play him like you do literally anyone else on the roster. I'm not just saying this to say it, or because I'm honeymoon.. you all heard me calling him low tier. My mind genuinely changed, so much that I may end up maining this dude. Not only do I see potential in him, he's REALLY ****ing fun to play.

Is he perfect / top tier? Hell no. But he's a definite high tier and he has solid potential. I kept using him in a quest to prove he was bad, and I actually ended up falling in love with him and completely changing my mind.

You guys should give him a chance, seriously. He might surprise you.
 
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Diddy Kong

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All am saying is that I think Joker's neutral is rather easy to beat, as Diddy. I literally haven't lost to a Joker player yet.
 

Nah

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probably not the best idea to base a (broad) statement about a character two days old solely on "I haven't lost to one yet"

What do we think of the buffed versions of Corrin, Diddy, Sheik and Mewtwo now by the way? They seem to have been buffed quite a lot... are they now comparable at least to their Smash 4 selves?
I can't really speak for the other 3 characters, but in Corrin's case I don't think that the changes are as big of a deal as the number of them might make it seem. It's mostly QoL/fixing a couple of multi-hit moves rather than anything game-changing. The only one that probably really matters afaik is the up B changes.

nevermind that the waterball change was completely useless/pointless
 

TTTTTsd

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Joker's pretty fun. Not confident ranking him anywhere, but I do have some general observations:
- Eiha is likely his best reward from a techchase scenario and against big bodies it covers all sorts of things. Also a good projectile in general, strictly for its reward on hit. Improves his damage racking quite a bit!
- His throw combos are really stable (reminds me a lot of Falco in this regard) so thats often going to be your best starter. Thankfully you can score throws at low % from aerials on hit (particularly Nair and even Dair).
- His Bair is RIDICULOUS. Even with the tiny hitbox, its a FAF 31 aerial! Incredible for frametraps, fades, you name it. Arsene Bair is probably his most ridiculous aerial because it retains the 31 FAF but becomes a bit larger and SIGNIFICANTLY stronger.

His problems though, are also pretty poignant. Rebel's Guard is the fastest way to build Persona when you're playing from a lead (i.e. not getting hit) and it can be quite risky, and as many have pointed out his hitboxes are incredibly small. I think his neutral is sufficient as a result of his mobility however. He may have problems contesting smalls and certain characters with large hitboxes. I believe the smallness of his hitboxes in general outside of Arsene really hurts his ability to oppress in neutral.

I do feel his strengths are relevant enough and in the right areas to make him pretty good, though! He certainly feels capable for competition.
 
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Do we know if the percentage a move does correlate to how much time he loses with Aresen once its active? I've noticed the gauge drain differently depending after being thrown and it appears it could be damage based. If so high power pummels and throws could be a good way to stall down Aresen's active time.

Also new? Tech to show, quite possibly will be patched but you can now do attacks while holding an item. https://twitter.com/TFRhythm/status/1119334690500988928?s=20
 
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Gleam

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I actually fear that people will start seeing through Joker and the things that he actually is good at, will begin to turn away from him. I'm getting that initial King K. Rool vibe. A character who seemed to have such good potential, in this case in Arsene. It seems so good, probably because it turns a very questionable character into a very buffed character with strong killing options, projectile and perhaps combo potential. Such a character "feels" really good but things have already been suggested that could hinder it.

1.) Simply running away until it runs out. Perhaps easier said than done but not an impossibility.
2.) Zoning and chipping away the Persona gauge.
3.) I'm also unsure of how well Persona Joker's combo potential is compared to his Base Form.

I believe that people will find a way around Arsene, just because its natural to adapt to things. People will learn the flaws of Arsene, whatever they might and then use and manipulate them to their advantage. It's happened to nearly everyone and some characters adapt and still keep going while others fall to the side. :ultkrool: was a character who didn't seem to be able to adapt (and then got several nerfs on the way) and it severely effected him.

Arsene Joker will be no different and the question is, can he adapt well enough to keep going or are his buffs to such a form great enough that, even hindered, he still proves a threat? At his point only time will tell.

Then you have Base Joker who, regardless of how much one might think his capabilities are, there's no doubt he has fundamental problems. People have suggested that Base Joker even has a questionable neutral and if that's true, that's a problem. Having a weak neutral is one of the worst things you can have. It's the primary reason that :ultpiranha: is such a weak character.

This is the reason that, even with Joker's good capabilities, I don't think I can put him in High Tier. For one, I think there are plenty of high tier characters who could give Persona Joker a fight. They've got just as good mobility, killing power, arguably better combo potential, edgeguarding, projectile, etc. The only difference is that, none of them are forced to "cool down" into a weaker version of themselves for about 1-2 minutes.

There is no way I can see Joker getting into High Tier if he continues have such a flaw but if Arsene continues to be as good as it feels, I can see him reaching to Upper Mid, maybe just cradling the line of High Tier.

Overall, if Arsene can continue to be successful and Base Joker can improve, Joker can definitely see himself as a High Tier character if not better.

If People find ways around Arsene, if Base Joker continues to have these issues and can't adapt, it won't surprise me one bit if he falls all the way down near the bottom of Mid or Top of Low.
 

NotLiquid

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So some fleeting thoughts after messing around a bit with Joker's
. It actually provides him with some unique crossup options. Aerial rain storm has 10 frames of landing lag, and given that the attack has some generous hitstun close range, he can combo out of it when doing a shorthop. At least based on my limited testing, it seems to true combo into up smash which gives him another non-Arsene kill confirm at around 115%, though I don't think FSmash applies.

There are caveats to that, such as the fact that it is a slower option to a FAir 1 (though not slower recovering), and I think I read somewhere that it's -6 on block so it's not entirely safe. But there are some upsides to this thing. For one, Joker can shift his momentum during the input, meaning that if the opponent wants to punish it, they're going to have to make a read on where Joker will end up. Another mixup Joker is granted using this is opting against even utilizing the rainstorm at all and going for a waveland out of the blank shot. Joker's waveland has 10 frames of landing lag (possibly give or take here assuming my frame counts are off) - way less than a traditional waveland from a directional air dodge. He essentially gets a free option select on landing. Obviously the opponent can just jump out of it but that's also kind of a good thing when Joker's aerials are as versatile as they are.

Anyway that's my random
thoughts for today on how it could theoretically be employed.
 
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PK Gaming

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I'm sorry but with exception to the usage of Arsene, there is not one kill confirm Joker has in his base form. Someone show me evidence that Base Joker has any kill confirms when the most he can combo is at about 100% and needs to get opponents up to around 120-180% (depending on the move) to get them into kill percentage.
https://youtu.be/Pk8BiBf0UKk?t=446

This was literally a day 1 discovery.

None of Base Joker's combos work past 100% In fact I don't know if any of them go past 80%. He's got a few true combos at low percent such as:
Down-Throw+Nair/Fair and Uair. It takes some good timing but he can do Fastfall Nair+D-tilt. Utilt can be comboed into a few moves up until around 50%. These are not good damages but the thing is, that sense of "damage lacking" may very come from the fact that Base Joker has such poor killing power.
The vast majority of combos in this game don't work past 100% and their value comes from how effective they are at low % . How is this an argument?

Sorry to say but I don't see much use in his gun beyond very select points. Get a bit of chip damage, do a little bit of spacing. It's basically a much worse Fox Blaster and it desperately needs either damage increase or hitstun...aka what Persona gives it. Eiha is honestly a much better projectile that does allow for some spacing, but is also heavily laggy and easily canceled by a lot of regular attacks. I don't know if I can say Eigaon is a top class projectile but being the buffed up version of Eiha, it's certainly more useful.

But I'm not talking about Persona am I?
Standing gun isn't very good (so far), but vertical gun from the air is pretty effective. Eigaon is fast, covers a lot of range and racks up an absurd amount of damage on it. It's very good.

You mean the gun that has nearly no damage or hitstun? Sure that might work against Little Mac or Ganon but it's not going to do much against anyone with a decent recovery. You may mean Gun Special via Persona/Arsene and in that case, perhaps so. I make it very clear I'm talking about Base Joker, without the buffs he gets from Persona and I'm starting to question if anyone is actually getting that.
https://youtu.be/_AcO0dtIhQI?t=298
https://twitter.com/InfernoOmni/status/1119339051042123776

Gun is undeniably good for edgeguarding. Do more research instead of acting about a move you don't fully understand.

Right back at ya.
Don't be smug when you don't even have a grasp on how combos work in Smash Bros.

It kind of does though. If Base Joker needs to get people up to 150% on many of his moves but dies at around 120%, that means he needs to put more effort in both landing hits and avoiding damage. Most character's don't have this problem. Even :ultpiranha: with his poor killing power can at least survive a good 150-180% thanks to combination of his weight and recovery. Character's usually have a balance of some sort between their killing power and the percentage they're usually killed at. Arsene seems to ultimately be what helps Joker balance out hat issue.
I'm not going to refute this because it's a nonsensical argument, but you really need to stop bringing up unrelated characters to support your arguments. It's not very effective.

That sounds like an episode for trouble. Why would I want to build up something passively, unless you mean passively different than what I think. Do you mean like, do it via damage taken and not counter? There's only three ways to get that gauge up.
Arsene's mechanics means that you will build up Arsene around the 70% point on your first stock, without using Rebel's guard. Arsene is a pretty consistent presence in every match.

You need to put more effort into your arguments. Do research so you have something to stand on, back up your points with tangible arguments instead of nebulous claims and irrelevant character comparisons. And use less text to get your points across.
 

Emblem Lord

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All am saying is that I think Joker's neutral is rather easy to beat, as Diddy. I literally haven't lost to a Joker player yet.
And?

What of it? You made a statement with no meaning.
 
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Lavani

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Do we know if the percentage a move does correlate to how much time he loses with Aresen once its active? I've noticed the gauge drain differently depending after being thrown and it appears it could be damage based. If so high power pummels and throws could be a good way to stall down Aresen's active time.
Meshima gave a thorough breakdown of gauge mechanics on twitter [1] [2]

tl;dr ver:
gauge fills when Joker takes damage, fills by about x2.7 during Rebel's Guard, and fills at x0.2 rate for damage taken by allies
arsene lasts 30sec by default and disappears faster with damage taken, how much damage affects the gauge depends on how many fighters are in the match but a 1v1 requires 150% to empty it in one go
damage dealt by joker doesn't affect gauge fill or drain
gauge also fills faster when Joker's down in stock
 

Gleam

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Nothing suggest Base Gun is anything good, but it also has its quirks. Being weak doesn't necessarily mean being useless. I've already said that Eigaon is a good projectile, never once suggested it wasn't. Gun doesn't spike but that was noted in the Twitter Thread, but I can see it's usage as the suggested stage spike. That's definitely something I didn't know about until now.

Don't be smug when you don't even have a grasp on how combos work in Smash Bros.
Look, I'm sorry if my attitude came off as smug as I had no intention of that, but your attitude came off the exact same way to me.

I will say there are certainly things about Joker that I didn't expect that are very nice which definitely gives me a broader impression of him than I had before.
 
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Meshima gave a thorough breakdown of gauge mechanics on twitter [1] [2]

tl;dr ver:
gauge fills when Joker takes damage, fills by about x2.7 during Rebel's Guard, and fills at x0.2 rate for damage taken by allies
arsene lasts 30sec by default and disappears faster with damage taken, how much damage affects the gauge depends on how many fighters are in the match but a 1v1 requires 150% to empty it in one go
damage dealt by joker doesn't affect gauge fill or drain
gauge also fills faster when Joker's down in stock
Thank you for this. So essentially it's similar to Shulk's artes in that damage will drain the timer quicker. Something I do with Shulk is once I grab him I take as long as I possibly can to throw him to try and stall out as much time as possible on his arte timer so this would work against Arsene. Additionally using your strongest damage throw or longest throw animation can be optimal depending on the situation to further drain out Arsene.


I will say there are certainly things about Joker that I didn't expect that are very nice which definitely gives me a broader impression of him than I had before.
Just make sure you are actually researching things before you make definitive statements about them and if you can't make a definitive statement about it don't pose it as a fact. It will definitely help with posting quality and help you gain insight better. This thread can be a wonderful resource, it was for me during smash 4 (Thank you whoever did that Corrin pin breakdown in the Smash 4 thread. Once I learned I could punish pin OOS with Nair it got a lot easier). And it still can be for Ultimate but we need to make sure we post in a way that makes it so.
 

Gleam

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damage dealt by joker doesn't affect gauge fill or drain
I know Base Joker can't but I could have swore Persona Joker could keep his gauge increased with consecutive attacks. I must have misinterpreted that because I thought a good Joker might be able to keep Persona up longer with good oppression. In fairness, that probably helps balance him out more.
 
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True, but I am talking as a Link main. 12-18% from fully charged arrow(s) is nothing to scoff at. Hell, even the 6/8/9.6% from the boomerang is pretty damaging. Yea, it is a trade off. Take the damage yo get Arsene more quickly, but it is not free and shouldn't be treated as such. Especially as the knockback side effect doesn't effect zoners.

Now Arsene's reflector and counter are something to worry about as a zoner. The change up requires a different game plan from a zoner and is quite the useful tool in punishing camping/spam and over relience in general on projectiles.
you aren't getting 12% from an arrow on joker using rebel guard. in the trailer, joker took 4 percent from a peach pot fsmash. camping joker out and letting him farm out arsene is not a good gameplan. thats a horrible trade.
 

The_Bookworm

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Going to repost and update the notable upsets in Pound 2019 so far. Not so much right now:
Pipp:ultsnake: 2-1 JeBB:ultpalutena:
Mystearica (He played :4bayonetta: in SSB4, but not sure if he plays her in Ultimate) 2-1 Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
SciFire:ultsnake: 2-1 Fatality:ultfalcon:
Danbi:ultyoshi: (Wins Over) Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina:


Just a reminder, but this is the thread for Pound 2019:
https://smashboards.com/threads/pound-2019-disucssion-thread.482735/


Edit: Fatality posted this.
 
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Gleam

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Unless your character’s mobility is significantly better than Joker’s, and can wall him out, trying to time out Arsene isn’t really viable.

30 seconds is a long time to play keep away from a character that is essentially Dark Lord Sheik.
I'm not too sure about that. There quite a few characters who even if they don't have superior mobility to Joker, still do have good mobility, often with a nice projectile and a neutral that's just as good as Joker's own. Some characters do not have the mobility or capability to time out Arsene. :ultyounglink:can for all intents and purposes, run and jump around the stage and avoid Arsene, using projectiles to hinder Joker and when Joker does manage to get in, Young Link's own neutral is a powerful tool in and on itself.

Young Link might take a few licks here but he can maneuver around Joker if he tried. Another problem is that, while Joker's Arsene can last 30 seconds, thanks to damage depleting the game, you probably aren't going to have it that long. :ultyounglink::ultwolf::ultpichu::ultgreninja::ultfox: and many others within High or Top Tier have a good enough game to give even Arsene trouble. I think Arsene in most matches will probably last around 10-15 seconds. Part of me kind of wishes that Joker's Arsene would have some of it's killing power and knockback decreased in exchange to letting him get off stronger, more precise combos to build up.

But that's just me.

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Speaking of Arsene, has anyone had trouble with the few frames of lag that occurs when you're standing and Arsene disappears? It's rare but once in a while, when I'm focused on a match and don't know what my meter is, I sometimes find myself in that position. I'm standing, maybe I was guarding and then get punished due to that short but notable window of immobility.

Hopefully that gets patched out. Rare as it is, it is still annoying when it happens.
 

DelugeFGC

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I'm not too sure about that. There quite a few characters who even if they don't have superior mobility to Joker, still do have good mobility, often with a nice projectile and a neutral that's just as good as Joker's own. Some characters do not have the mobility or capability to time out Arsene. :ultyounglink:can for all intents and purposes, run and jump around the stage and avoid Arsene, using projectiles to hinder Joker and when Joker does manage to get in, Young Link's own neutral is a powerful tool in and on itself.

Young Link might take a few licks here but he can maneuver around Joker if he tried. Another problem is that, while Joker's Arsene can last 30 seconds, thanks to damage depleting the game, you probably aren't going to have it that long. :ultyounglink::ultwolf::ultpichu::ultgreninja::ultfox: and many others within High or Top Tier have a good enough game to give even Arsene trouble. I think Arsene in most matches will probably last around 10-15 seconds. Part of me kind of wishes that Joker's Arsene would have some of it's killing power and knockback decreased in exchange to letting him get off stronger, more precise combos to build up.

But that's just me.

---
---

Speaking of Arsene, has anyone had trouble with the few frames of lag that occurs when you're standing and Arsene disappears? It's rare but once in a while, when I'm focused on a match and don't know what my meter is, I sometimes find myself in that position. I'm standing, maybe I was guarding and then get punished due to that short but notable window of immobility.

Hopefully that gets patched out. Rare as it is, it is still annoying when it happens.
I've had the last thing about the Arsene lag happen to me and cause me to get stuck on the ledge ala a D3 Gordo for like two seconds. It's clearly some sort of bug, now way is it intentional.

I also dislike the screen tear thing that pops up sometimes when you get Arsene, it's distracting for both players.



All said the dude has demonstrable combo game for days, can rack % pretty consistently provided you know what to do, has literally no issues killing at all (and can even kill early) due to factors such as Arsene and him being horrifying to come back onstage against in most MU's and has pretty legit mobility once you get a hang of it. He doesn't live super long, but he doesn't die early either. If you know how to use his guns + his recovery, you shouldn't be dying from being knocked too far out often, either.. ESPECIALLY if you have Arsene.

Almost (not all, but almost) all of the problems a lot of people (including myself) have mentioned about Joker go away the second you learn how to use him properly. Sure, he has holes, and he's no top tier.. but it's getting kind of hard to argue he has real high tier potential, even if not the upper-echelons of high tier. He has amazing edge guarding potential and very good mobility, that alone can go a LONG way.. and it's far from all he has.

I'm probably gonna end up maining him, in my use of him (ironically trying to prove he sucked) I've fallen in love with his playstyle. I like combos, and I like being stupid off the ledge.. (guess I'm always gonna be a Falcon player at heart) and Joker is very good at both on top of having several other variables to his kit.
 
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Zachmac

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I swear that people think Arsene is supposed to give you a free win or something. Of course Arsene has counterplay, he'd literally be broken if he didn't.

Part of the beauty of Arsene is that when he's out, your opponent suddenly has to give you a lot more respect. It's like when Incineroar triggers revenge in this case, except that Joker actually has the mobility to chase an opponent down. Even if your opponent flees to stall it out, you're still gaining corner pressure from which you can abuse with your increased hitbox size, and even if they try to aggressively fend you off they still have to take risks to do so. At the very least you might be able to hit a stray side special for a lot of free damage.

You'll also find that Joker's mediocre frame data will seem much more impressive when he has both the range and power to back it up. Suddenly he's hitting like a heavyweight who doesn't have severe endlag issues or a massive hurtbox.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Camping Arsene is completely terrible, but not strictly because its 30 seconds. The actual reason is that damage Joker takes w/ Arsene out also drains the gauge, and that's a big deal. Its incentive for you to hit him anyways, even if its more difficult. It's the primary reason I wouldn't camp it out.
 

Arthur97

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Camping Arsene is completely terrible, but not strictly because its 30 seconds. The actual reason is that damage Joker takes w/ Arsene out also drains the gauge, and that's a big deal. Its incentive for you to hit him anyways, even if its more difficult. It's the primary reason I wouldn't camp it out.
So, just keep punching him till he goes down.
 

The_Bookworm

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For those who are not caught up to speed, a lot of upsets have occurred in Pound 2019. Here they are:

Winner's
Mystearica:ultzelda: 2-1 Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
Mystearica:ultzelda: 2-0 6WX:ultsonic:
SciFire:ultsnake: 2-1 Fatality:ultfalcon:
Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda: (Wins Over) Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina:
Daybreak:ultwolf: 2-1 Light:ultfox:
Gen:ultpalutena: 2-0 Mr E:ultlucina:
Jw:ultgreninja: 2-1 MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
MuteAce:ultpeach: 2-1 ESAM:ultpikachu:
Geist:ultbayonetta: 2-1 Frozen:ultpalutena:
Dexter 2-1 CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
BobbyWasabi 2-1 VoiD:ultpichu:
Shyguy 2-0 Salem:ultsnake:
MattyG:ultchrom: 2-0 Larry Lurr:ultfox::ultwolf:
Phantom 2-1 Laid:ultlucina:
Ice 2-1 Goblin:ultroy:


Loser's
Lemon 2-0 Fatality:ultfalcon: (eliminated at 97th place)
Jul:ultrobin: 2-1 JeBB:ultpalutena: (eliminated at 65th place)
Atomsk 2-0 Raptor:ultyoshi: (eliminated at 65th place)
Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda: 2-0 Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina: (eliminated at 65th place)
 
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Arthur97

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User was warned for this post
For those who are not caught up to speed, a lot of upsets have occurred in Pound 2019. Here they are:

Winner's
Mystearica:ultzelda: 2-1 Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
Mystearica:ultzelda: 2-0 6WX:ultsonic:
SciFire:ultsnake: 2-1 Fatality:ultfalcon:
Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda: (Wins Over) Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina:
Daybreak:ultwolf: 2-1 Light:ultfox:
Gen:ultpalutena: 2-0 Mr E:ultlucina:
Jw:ultgreninja: 2-1 MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
MuteAce:ultpeach: 2-1 ESAM:ultpikachu:
Geist:ultbayonetta: 2-1 Frozen:ultpalutena:
Dexter 2-1 CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
BobbyWasabi 2-1 VoiD:ultpichu:
Shyguy 2-0 Salem:ultsnake:
MattyG:ultchrom: 2-0 Larry Lurr:ultfox::ultwolf:
Phantom 2-1 Laid:ultlucina:
Ice 2-1 Goblin:ultroy:


Loser's
Lemon 2-0 Fatality:ultfalcon: (eliminated at 97th place)
Jul:ultrobinf: 2-1 JeBB:ultpalutena: (eliminated at 65th place)
Atomsk 2-0 Raptor:ultyoshi: (eliminated at 65th place)
Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda: 2-0 Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina: (eliminated at 65th place)
Must you use the Female Robin icon when from what I've seen he uses Male Robin more?
 

Arthur97

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Didn't know that. I thought he uses female Robin more. Fixed and noted.
I don't know for that particular match, but what I've seen of him he uses both with a leaning toward Male Robin though the thumbnails would always show Female Robin even if he only used her for one match. Really bugs me. It's kind of like Joker being on that one thumbnail despite hardly being used.
 
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For those who are not caught up to speed, a lot of upsets have occurred in Pound 2019. Here they are:

Winner's
Mystearica:ultzelda: 2-1 Seagull Joe:ultwolf:
Mystearica:ultzelda: 2-0 6WX:ultsonic:
SciFire:ultsnake: 2-1 Fatality:ultfalcon:
Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda: (Wins Over) Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina:
Daybreak:ultwolf: 2-1 Light:ultfox:
Gen:ultpalutena: 2-0 Mr E:ultlucina:
Jw:ultgreninja: 2-1 MkLeo:ultwolf::ultlucina:
MuteAce:ultpeach: 2-1 ESAM:ultpikachu:
Geist:ultbayonetta: 2-1 Frozen:ultpalutena:
Dexter 2-1 CaptainZack:ultdaisy:
BobbyWasabi 2-1 VoiD:ultpichu:
Shyguy 2-0 Salem:ultsnake:
MattyG:ultchrom: 2-0 Larry Lurr:ultfox::ultwolf:
Phantom 2-1 Laid:ultlucina:
Ice 2-1 Goblin:ultroy:


Loser's
Lemon 2-0 Fatality:ultfalcon: (eliminated at 97th place)
Jul:ultrobin: 2-1 JeBB:ultpalutena: (eliminated at 65th place)
Atomsk 2-0 Raptor:ultyoshi: (eliminated at 65th place)
Danbi:ultyoshi::ultzelda: 2-0 Pink Fresh:ultlucas::ultlucina: (eliminated at 65th place)

MkLeo, Light, Void, Salem, ESAM and lots more notable players already in losers. Top 48 losers bracket tomorrow is going to be an utter bloodbath
 
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The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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A 2-0 victory by Sinji:ultpacman: eliminates VoiD:ultpichu: at 49th place.

It is not the end of the run for Pichu, as Leffen is still in Winner's side (which guaranteed him 25th place), but still a notable turn of events.
 
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