Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sean²]

My only theory on Duck Hunt getting the shaft in general is that they are worried Duck Hunt is too annoying in casual play or something. This really does seem like a patch more oriented to moving characters in line to the developers original vision, but it seems like the developers vision is for Duck Hunt to not be a great character.

This was the case for DHD in Smash 4 as well. Like one halfway decent change over the span of 15 patches. I wouldn't get your hopes up on him being a good character this time around either.

 

[The_Bookworm]

My only theory on Duck Hunt getting the shaft in general is that they are worried Duck Hunt is too annoying in casual play or something. This really does seem like a patch more oriented to moving characters in line to the developers original vision, but it seems like the developers vision is for Duck Hunt to not be a great character.

The nerf honestly doesn't really impact Duck Hunt that much imo. Duck Hunt isn't a character that relies on trying on decimate your shields. Each of his projectile's roles functions the same as always. Duck Hunt is simply part of a universal change that nerfed them ever so slightly.


Imo, I think the projectile nerf on shields is getting a little overblown here. Lets not jump into conclusions until it fully presents itself to us. Remember when we all did that in 2.0.0?

 

[Kiligar]

She not, she wasn't even close to #1 before.

I'm hype for the Corrin buffs.

Pichu received tiny nerfs, Lucina received grab buff. Grab buff is huge for Lucina due to shield being an important way to take on aerials. MK Leo already makes frequent use of grabs, but now?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Pichu received tiny nerfs, Lucina received grab buff. Grab buff is huge for Lucina due to shield being an important way to take on aerials. MK Leo already makes frequent use of grabs, but now?

Again, grab buff doesn't really do much at all. It is just a fix for Marthcina and Chroy's dash grabs randomly whiffing when they are not supposed to.

 

[PK Gaming]

But the swordie grab range buff is gross. Lucina is #1 now balance team, congrats.

Think about why they all received the same buff before jumping to conclusions

They did it to fix the issue of those characters whiffing dash grab vs ROB

 

[Kiligar]

Think about why they all received the same buff before jumping to conclusions

They did it to fix the issue of those characters whiffing dash grab vs ROB

I hope you’re right. Swordies are meant to have bad grab games to make up for their many, many other strengths.

 

[Terotrous]

Pretty meh patch overall. Nerfs to Wolf and Snake matter, but the mid and high tiers generally got nothing to help them compete. I wonder if the balance team thinks Snake is a gatekeeper character or something, but I feel the (untouched) Lucina is really the gatekeeper for most of the cast.

 

[Kiligar]

Pretty meh patch overall. Nerfs to Wolf and Snake matter, but the mid and high tiers generally got nothing to help them compete. I wonder if the balance team thinks Snake is a gatekeeper character or something, but I feel the (untouched) Lucina is really the gatekeeper for most of the cast.

Yeah, nerf Lucina and Pichu so their counterparts are viable AND the meta is overall much better. That would’ve been the best thing they could have done.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I wonder if the balance team thinks Snake is a gatekeeper character or something, but I feel the (untouched) Lucina is really the gatekeeper for most of the cast.

I actually think Lucina was potentially not even top 10 before this patch, and she's hardly a gatekeeper in general, she mostly goes even or slightly wins vs most characters, she doesn't really win hard vs many characters. She's not Smash 4 Cloud.

 

[Kiligar]

I actually think Lucina was potentially not even top 10 before this patch, and she's hardly a gatekeeper in general, she mostly goes even or slightly wins vs most characters, she doesn't really win hard vs many characters. She's not Smash 4 Cloud.

I actually think Lucina was potentially not even top 10 before this patch, and she's hardly a gatekeeper in general, she mostly goes even or slightly wins vs most characters, she doesn't really win hard vs many characters. She's not Smash 4 Cloud.

Lucina has at least a slight advantage against the majority of the cast due to how strong every one of her tools are, having a better neutral, advantage, disadvantage and punish game than many characters. Her edge guarding is oppressive as is her disjoints. Not to mention high air speed and ground speed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is Elegant's response to the Luigi Fireball slight nerf:

Yeah I realize every projectile got nerfed, so we good

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) April 18, 2019

Later:

The more I think about it, MU’s like samus, Rob, etc... will be easier for Luigi because of the shield mechanic and no slippery mechanic. So it’ll be easier to get in.....yeah you fuckers are done

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) April 18, 2019

Give me a bit of practice with the new shield mechanic and you guys are actually done for, it’s time

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) April 18, 2019

The man is scheming and is scheming hard.

 

[KakuCP9]

Pretty meh patch overall. Nerfs to Wolf and Snake matter, but the mid and high tiers generally got nothing to help them compete. I wonder if the balance team thinks Snake is a gatekeeper character or something, but I feel the (untouched) Lucina is really the gatekeeper for most of the cast.

I wouldn't say the changes matter that much. Wolf's blaster still forces a response out of your opponent (and still stings quite a bit), you just can't use it close range without risk. Between his buttons (dash attack and bair in particular) and blaster, he's still the same mid-range monster he always was.
Snake's side-b is still a busted af edge-guarding tool, it just doesn't last longer than four hours anymore (the grenade change doesn't matter either since he litters the stage with those things rather than outright throw them at people).
The lack Lucina changes kinda suck (especially to her bair), especially since she's indirectly buffed by the projectile changes (also lets not kid ourselves Frihetsanka , this character is absolutely top tier)
and Marth is not that far behind her in term of strength

 

[Y2Kay]

Let's keep the thread (and smashboards in general) rated PG pls.

But yeah I'm pretty dissapointed with this patch. I deep down like the Megaman nerfs but for that to happen and then do nothing about Palutena and give wolf a slap on the wrist kinda stinks.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This is Elegant's response to the Luigi Fireball slight nerf:

Yeah I realize every projectile got nerfed, so we good

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) April 18, 2019

Later:

The more I think about it, MU’s like samus, Rob, etc... will be easier for Luigi because of the shield mechanic and no slippery mechanic. So it’ll be easier to get in.....yeah you fuckers are done

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) April 18, 2019

Give me a bit of practice with the new shield mechanic and you guys are actually done for, it’s time

— TSUKA (@Elegant_Matt) April 18, 2019

The man is scheming and is scheming hard.

Luigi's recovery is still complete poop, that is the thing that is really holding Luigi back right now. Plus it does not help Luigi vs swords at all
I doubt the universal projectile changes will help too much. But we will have to see. Maybe I am too dumb to see if it will be a difference

 

[Planty]

What I got from this:

In general, projectiles are less effective against shields. It is a little nerf to projectile characters. I think this impacts the most, but they are nevertheless still effective tools.

Unfortunately doesn't have short-hop fair autocancel yet. At least Flare Blitz will no longer whiff against small characters, so I guess that is nice.
They removed the turnip difference between her and Peach. They really are carbon copies now, huh?
Mains of DK got their wish: the Punch appears to have been fixed.
She got some really nice QoL buffs. The pin, up B, and neutral B buffs strike me the best. There is hope for her yet.
Also got some nice QoL buffs. Not entirely sure if these improvements impact him that much, but is nice to see regardless.
Appears to have received yet another "nerf" to her roller, that may be a small buff in disguise.
He is in the game now.
Got some QoL buffs. I don't think it is really impactful, but it is nice to see the croc get some love.
Seems like they fixed copy ability RNG, which is cool. The up B, n-air, and up smash buffs are also nice as well. Not sure what is the point of the down throw change, but ok.
Seems like the Blue Bomber got nerfed. Weakened projectiles on shields and a nerfed Leaf Shield.
Geez this guy got BUFFED. A lot of QoL changes plus a weight increase. Not sure about the magnitude of the weight increase, but it nevertheless nice.
Changes to yo-yo seems like a minor to it, but still stupid good tools. Just not as spammable as before. Seems like it's interaction with shields where it can decimate shields has been fixed.
Minor nerf to side B, but they fixed smash attacks. I guess that means he is buffed?
Hot take: the change to make it easier to hit might be a secret low-key big nerf. Don't know for sure right now, but is interesting to take a look at.
I have absolutely no idea what Rosa's changes mean. Is it good or not?
Got their dash grabs buffed. Nice little fix as they can randomly whiff for no reason (I am looking at you R.O.B.), but it doesn't really do too much.
A few nice QoL buffs for Sheik (f-air buff especially speaks to me), although I am unsure that these changes actually impact the character too much.
Nikita and up smash seems to have received minor nerfs. Not too big of a change, but it gives Snake players less incentive to mindlessly spam them.
Wii Fit got her projectiles nerfed slightly, but really likes the jab and Deep Breathing buffs.
We all saw the down smash nerf coming. Blaster being less effective on shields is a minor nerf to his neutral. He is still one of the best characters regardless of these changes imo.



Only Marthcina and Chroy got the dash grab buff and it is more of a fix than an actual buff.

Less shield stun on Luma Shot and Star Bits is self-explanatory, just like other projectiles.

The changes to d-tilt and f-tilt, if I'm understanding correctly (server issues won't let me update to test) are buffs. Ever since smash 4 days, if Luma was tethered to Rosa and they're facing right and they try to f-tilt to the left, Rosalina will turn around and f-tilt like a normal character, and Luma will do his f-tilt from the same position (now behind Rosalina). What this meant essentially was that doing an f-tilt (or any move) in the direction you're facing gives you more range than doing it in the opposite direction.

Apparently this got fixed and now Luma will move in front of Rosalina when doing a turnaround tilt, which is a clear buff (unless, again, I misinterpreted the patch notes). How significant this change is, and whether or not it applies only to f-tilt and d-tilt remains to be seen (f-smash has the same issue, making dashback-> turn around f-smash have much less range than it should)

Also on the topic of Rosalina, the weakening of projectiles benefits her. Though it may not seem like it, she struggles against projectiles due to them hitting Luma through shield along with her big, floaty nature making it difficult to navigate a wall of projectiles. Decreasing shield stun and making parrying projectiles better doesn't fix her fundamental issues against projectiles (that they hit Luma through shield) but it helps.

 

[The_Bookworm]

BREAKING NEWS: THEY DID IT! THEY FIXED IT!
now has the Id (Purpose) victory theme Robin and Lucina has! Can't believe it took them that long for the devs to notice that.


In the meantime, SDX is predictably happy that Mewtwo got the mad buffs.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I checked, and Mewtwo's weight has been increased from value 77 -> 79, which now makes his weight tied with Kirby, Pikachu, and Olimar, with Fox and Sheik now being lighter than him. It seems pretty small on paper, but this is actually a pretty big buff.

 

[meleebrawler]

All the talk about how it's better to be light on nerfs and focus on buffing weaker characters, yet here we are still bemoaning top tiers not getting nerfs that make them not top tier.

Guess deep down, everyone secretly knows the best (but frowned upon) way to increase your non-top tier's viability is discouraging others from using those good characters, any way they can.

At this stage the devs seem more focused on looking for abusable tactics/moves that offer too much reward for little execution on the nerf side, or just harms the pace of the game too easily. For Duck Hunt I will say, the character is currently in purgatory due to being barely used anywhere, even online, thus giving little to no feedback to the devs on what, if anything, needs changing.

 

[FruitLoop]

Anyone have thoughts on joker though?

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

top tiers in this game doesn't have the results to deserve strong nerfs, very light nerfs are enough, buffs to low tiers and fixes are more important for how young the game is, the truth is that there isn't enough data to make big chances for a big part of the roster, not only that the dev team has addressed common complains of the game like proyectiles being too strong, a game with a roster this big doesn't need drastic chances.

 

[TimG57867]

Seems like they fixed copy ability RNG, which is cool. The up B, n-air, and up smash buffs are also nice as well. Not sure what is the point of the down throw change, but ok.

That Down Throw change is actually quite appreciated. On a wide variety of characters, Kirby has potential to get score big damage off a well positioned F Throw. However, because of the way his F Throw works and Kirby's current specs, once foes generally hit tumble percent (i.e. above 25% in most cases) true throw combos pretty much go off the table. Kirby can opt for a F Throw to Final Cutter, but unless the target either is a big body or fails to DI out, it won't be true. Thus whenever Kirby wins neutral via a grab at mid and high percents, he has to Down Throw to rack up percent while keeping Up Throw fresh as long as possible.

So the Down Throw change helps a good bit because now Kirby has an easier time getting his foes to kill percents with the grabs he gets when Throw Combos no longer work. It also makes the F Throw Low Platform issue on stages like Battlefield a bit more bearable as now you get a bit more percent when you find yourself getting a grab beneath those platforms and being forced to D Throw.

It's a shame they didn't outright fix F Throw yet but the Down Throw buff low key will make it a bit easier to put up with while also giving Kirby a bit more reward off grabs at higher percent.

 

[Rizen]

The nerf honestly doesn't really impact Duck Hunt that much imo. Duck Hunt isn't a character that relies on trying on decimate your shields. Each of his projectile's roles functions the same as always. Duck Hunt is simply part of a universal change that nerfed them ever so slightly.


Imo, I think the projectile nerf on shields is getting a little overblown here. Lets not jump into conclusions until it fully presents itself to us. Remember when we all did that in 2.0.0?

The issue isn't that projectiles do less shield damage but rather that they have less frame advantage on shields. The problem is this was handled as a universal change rather than nerfing things that needed it like Wolf's blaster specifically. So suddenly characters who were not good like Isabelle have less safe Bairs to zone with. Characters who's kits heavily rely on projectiles now have less safety on much of their movesets, like Megaman and Mii Gunner. The nerf seems minimal but it stacks up over a match, especially considering how powerful sword characters already were.

Then there's the power creep. Characters who needed buffs got them but projectile zoners got no compensation for their lessened shield safety. So most projectile zoners, some more than others, have slightly less safe MUs with non-zoners and worse MUs vs buffed characters. These changes may be small but it all adds up across the tier list. Zoners will have a harder time keeping characters out.

Anyone have thoughts on joker though?

Joker hasn't appeared for me even though I bought him. He's probably not out yet.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

One chance that i love is increased stalling on spotdodges, sometimes players couldn't get punished from abusing aerials because they could spam spotdodge after landing with them then retreat and try another safe landing pressure.

 

[Allkings]

after testing joker, he feel really good with really good moves (i really like that uptilt)

edit: and that upb buff onis great

 

[Browny]

Firstly, Joker feels very underwhelming. Arsen might come out pretty easily, but that doesn't make up for an apparent lack of high damaging combos or ways to end stocks early. He can have his near-ungimpable recovery, when he is down in % I can see it being very hard for him to catch up. Relying on Arsen to get a KO isn't going to help when he's the one forced to approach.

Secondly,

 

[DelugeFGC]

Joker has very mid-tierish vibes. Zero knockback / kill power without the Rebellion meter filled.. and if you could fill the meter by doing well that would be fine but you HAVE to take damage / counter hits and risk damage to fill it. That's a really piss combination imo. He also feels like a bizarre Frankenstein of different characters and their kits, having very little besides his gimmick to set him apart. That recovery is a total tragedy, but I will say it has enough vertical leeway to go pretty deep (but only RIGHT at the ledge) for low recovery EG's.

His combo game and zoning is all present, but lackluster. He doesn't seem to do anything SUPER well, and he has clear problems on top of it. Definitely not a Sm4sh Bayo / Cloud / Ryu, feeling more like another Piranha Plant.

Just real let down by him, overall, really. He's gimmicky and doesn't scream out potential. The stage is also a let down and kind of gives me a headache after a few matches due to the aesthetic of it. The balancing changes were pretty underwhelming on 75% of the roster, too. This patch was.. real.. meh.

Joker, just. He feels like a risk / reward sort of character, but the reward outweighs the risk and doesn't leave for super promising comeback potential in matches. It seems his player would have to totally dominate the momentum of the match to do consistently with him, and I'd say a lot of his 'magic' in terms of meta potential / growth is going to be heavily MU dependent. I could see him being a viable counterpick for.. some MU's, maybe.. but never super viable. He has a LOT of stuff in his kit, but he's not great at any of it. Being a Jack of all Trades and a Master of None isn't a good trait in Smash.

Once the Persona is out, he doesn't even get THAT crazy huge of a boost to compensate for the risk / damage you had to take to get it out. That's my main problem with him, I also REALLY dislike how Joker just feels like an incomplete character (think Squirtle or Sheik.. i.e. can't kill) without it. I understand having the bulk of his OOMPH so to speak there is fine and all, but I'd like to be able to translate 150%+ into a kill without going for one of a handful of pretty unsafe / predictable options. His recovery is also REAAAALLY bad, the upsides I see people mention don't help the fact it's very limited and linear.

There is little to nothing Joker can do to build % at a decent pace. He's not super adept at camping or zoning. He doesn't have big disjoints or anything crazy to edge guard with. Literally every OUNCE of kill power he has is locked behind his Persona. He's big bodied enough (in terms of just, size) to eat combos easily but not heavy enough to live super long. His disadvantage state seems pretty meh. His options seem super linear and predictable. His recovery is garbage. I actually think he could end up in low tier without buffs, I know he's BRAND new and all but the character seems WAAAAY too underwhelming to be called top/high tier material.

 

[Krysco]

Should be mentioned that not every projectile was listed as having 'reduced power against shield'. Perfect shield/parry buff applies to all projectiles I imagine but the following projectiles had no mention of reduced power against shield:

Spoiler: Long list

and neutral b
neutral b
usmash and dsmash from the sounds of things. Only fsmash and side b were listed as having reduced power on shield. Usmash and dsmash were only listed due to having proper charging
Limit neutral b
neutral b
neutral b
and neutral b
neutral b and down b
neutral b and down b
and down b
neutral b
up b (and most likely any neutral b from others not affected)
neutral b, down b and fsmash at 0%
side b shockwave
and neutral b, side b and up b
side b, down b, fsmash, maybe jab 2 and 3, dair, uair
down b
Shot Put
fair, the Falco neutral b rip off and the first up b
neutral b and fair
/ down b
neutral b and side b
Arcthunder, Thoron, discarded items and Elwind
/ Hadoken
/ missiles and bombs (I'm pretty sure these actually do bonus shield damage. They did in Sm4sh anyway)
neutral b and side b
/ neutral b and down b
side b and usmash
up b
neutral b and down b
side b
down b
side b
neutral b

Oh and any item that isn't turnips was unaffected too

Not the greatest options unaffected and they very well could be and just weren't listed on the site (like what happened with Dark Samus last patch).

As for Joker, frame data is similar to that of swordie characters in terms of startup, Can only really pull off 2 nairs, fairs, uairs or dairs offstage after a short hop while still being able to get back with the tether. Bair has low enough lag to allow 4 after a short hop while still being able to get back. He also gets invincibility when Arsene first appears and leaves, kinda like Shulk with his artes.

 

[ZephyrZ]

At first everyone agreed before that 2.0 would set the precedent for what future patches would probably be like, but after it dropped everyone was like "that's it? They're probably just saving big character changes for 3.0".

Now 3.0 is here and everyone is still surprised that the balance changes are still overall still pretty minor. I can't be the only one who's not really surprised by this, right?

You think we'll learn by patch 4.0 not to be so obsessed with future balance changes?

 

[Rizen]

I agree Joker feels underwhelming. He's like Sheik who traded a little speed for range. His range is still mediocre and so his zoning. There isn't much to add that hasn't already been said :/

 

[NotLiquid]

Oh dear Joker may be a problem lol pic.twitter.com/32MLOI6H2E

— Lythero 🎮 (@Lythero) April 18, 2019

So about Joker's edge guarding....

 

[Rizen]

Oh dear Joker may be a problem lol pic.twitter.com/32MLOI6H2E

— Lythero 🎮 (@Lythero) April 18, 2019

So about Joker's edge guarding....

That looks good but I wonder if most characters can simply mash upB to survive. Fox might have trouble due to having to charge upB.

 

[NotLiquid]

Joker's dropdown aerial options are really interesting. The Greninja UAir already speaks for itself, and if people figure that one out, he's not going to need Arsene that much to take a stock when FSmash is a dangerous kill option at 95% onward (though I'm a little mixed on whether that can reliably sweetspot). His FAir is also an interesting one because the first hit actually props up the opponent at a fixed knockback that can be followed up with another aerial. At critical percents both FAir and DAir are great kill moves at the ledge which can both be combo'd off of FAir 1, and yeah, the aforementioned UAir can also be used, possibly with a dropdown. Now of course me and my noted self being garbagio at actually playing Smash I'm a little too human to pull this stuff off consistently but I reckon if even I can figure out and do that stuff at some kind of level then I'm pretty confident his eventual top players can shoot even higher. Given that Joker can also jablock (and allegedly can do so very easily), dragdowns aren't his only gimmick when it comes to killing.

The question is going to be whether his regular damage racking without Arsene is going to be good enough make these setups feasible. There's already a healthy string of "training mode" combos on Twitter which need actual application. I don't get the immediate sense that Joker needs to win as many exchanges as Sheik's squeaky toy moveset, but I could be wrong on that. His grappling hook also has some really deceptive reach. No Inkling by any means as far as basic recovery, but he should have virtually no problem going off stage to edgeguard, and considering how his aerials are all very good, his off-stage game may be something to look out for. I absolutely would not sleep on him off-stage, because that's most likely where a lot of his "early kill options" that people are worried about will stem from.

I don't know what to make of his up tilt yet. Seems like an extremely good anti-air but with that knockback it isn't going to lead into anything.

Tl;dr I think he's good and I don't think kill options are going to be his achilles heel. His neutral is what's suss. If his standard form gets optimized, I think he'll end up solid. Most likely not beyond high tier, but good enough that he should be fine as far as main material goes.

 

[Wunderwaft]

What “bad stuff” are you talking about? Because, so far the misconceptions about the character outweigh accurate info.

Jab doesn't combo into itself. Extremely floaty. Huge end lag on her grab and tilts. Charge shot has big startup and end lag. F-air's hitboxes are inconsistent and sometimes don't connect at all when they should.
Samus is by no means terrible. She's a good mid tier with a high skill cap, but she's not this sleeping beast you imagine her to be.

 

[Nemesis561]

Joker has very mid-tierish vibes. Zero knockback / kill power without the Rebellion meter filled.. and if you could fill the meter by doing well that would be fine but you HAVE to take damage / counter hits and risk damage to fill it. That's a really piss combination imo. He also feels like a bizarre Frankenstein of different characters and their kits, having very little besides his gimmick to set him apart. That recovery is a total tragedy, but I will say it has enough vertical leeway to go pretty deep (but only RIGHT at the ledge) for low recovery EG's.

His combo game and zoning is all present, but lackluster. He doesn't seem to do anything SUPER well, and he has clear problems on top of it. Definitely not a Sm4sh Bayo / Cloud / Ryu, feeling more like another Piranha Plant.

Just real let down by him, overall, really. He's gimmicky and doesn't scream out potential. The stage is also a let down and kind of gives me a headache after a few matches due to the aesthetic of it. The balancing changes were pretty underwhelming on 75% of the roster, too. This patch was.. real.. meh.

Joker, just. He feels like a risk / reward sort of character, but the reward outweighs the risk and doesn't leave for super promising comeback potential in matches. It seems his player would have to totally dominate the momentum of the match to do consistently with him, and I'd say a lot of his 'magic' in terms of meta potential / growth is going to be heavily MU dependent. I could see him being a viable counterpick for.. some MU's, maybe.. but never super viable. He has a LOT of stuff in his kit, but he's not great at any of it. Being a Jack of all Trades and a Master of None isn't a good trait in Smash.

Once the Persona is out, he doesn't even get THAT crazy huge of a boost to compensate for the risk / damage you had to take to get it out. That's my main problem with him, I also REALLY dislike how Joker just feels like an incomplete character (think Squirtle or Sheik.. i.e. can't kill) without it. I understand having the bulk of his OOMPH so to speak there is fine and all, but I'd like to be able to translate 150%+ into a kill without going for one of a handful of pretty unsafe / predictable options. His recovery is also REAAAALLY bad, the upsides I see people mention don't help the fact it's very limited and linear.

There is little to nothing Joker can do to build % at a decent pace. He's not super adept at camping or zoning. He doesn't have big disjoints or anything crazy to edge guard with. Literally every OUNCE of kill power he has is locked behind his Persona. He's big bodied enough (in terms of just, size) to eat combos easily but not heavy enough to live super long. His disadvantage state seems pretty meh. His options seem super linear and predictable. His recovery is garbage. I actually think he could end up in low tier without buffs, I know he's BRAND new and all but the character seems WAAAAY too underwhelming to be called top/high tier material.

This post is going to age very very poorly lol

 

[Rizen]

Quick's Samus here does a good job of showing what she can do:

Samus looks solid.

 

[Browny]

This post is going to age very very poorly lol

Explain where. Or better yet, name a trait that Joker is better than at least say... 20 other characters at. KO'ing, recovering, edgeguarding, combos, camping, walling, approaching or any others you can think of.

He might not be bad right off the top, but its hard to see how he is going to hang with the characters who can take him for a 0-50% ride where he can't do that in return, outlive them or KO earlier.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Anyone else having server communication errors?

I was last night yeah. I tried for an hour and ended up not getting the update yesturday. Are these issues over?

Edit: My thoughts after looking through the patch notes:

At the moment, after looking at the patch notes, the most buffed characters (to me) seem to be:

1. Another case of a relatively ignored Mid Tier getting some well deserved buffs to a lot of their moveset. Corrin got some really good changes and is by far probably going to be the most affected by their buffs in this patch.

2. Wow they really thought this character needed buffs. Got increased damage and range on some attacks and increased weight.

3. I can't believe they actually buffed this character after the last patch. Most of his buffs probably aren't going to affect his viability much, but they seem noticeable enough to put him here.

HM: He just got a few good QOL buffs that increased his frame data, damage and kill potential a little on a few of his moves. Nothing major, but still not bad.

HM: got a bit of attention and while I think more could have been done to make him better, he was one of the more buffed characters in this update.

And now for I think who got hit the hardest in this patch:

1. Mega Man got hit hard in 2.0.0 and because of the universal projectile nerfs and additional nerfs to Leaf Shield, he just got worse here.

2. Snake's b-air got increased kill power but up-smash and his specials got quite a bit worse. I don't think he's going to fall out of top tier or anything, but these changes are pretty big.

3. Most of her projectiles are now worse against shield and her moveset revolves around projectiles.

HM: This one may come as a surprise but let me explain. Side-b is used a lot to pressure shields (in combination with down-b or at least that's what Villager mains did in Smash 4 it felt like but there really aren't any good Villager mains to go off of in Ultimate) and it can no longer do that as effectively. f-air and b-air got the same treatment. Why did they have to be so mean to Villager .

HM: Down-smash is worse (cheers) and blaster is worse against shields. Nothing huge, but they do limit two of Wolf's better moves.

 

[Nah]

tbh I'm just glad that they didn't gut anyone in this patch. There's still more things that they could/should do, (and they could've been a little more selective with what projectiles got the shield change), but when people complain about Lucina being top tier, I think that we're in a pretty good spot regarding top tier balance/power level. It'd be no fun to gut characters in this case.

You think we'll learn by patch 4.0 not to be so obsessed with future balance changes?

nah

 

[ARISTOS]

3.0.0 ICE CLIMBERS ARE BROKEN. get ready for a monster coming at you.

instant cheerless grab. unlimited options. super easy. controller footage included. #SSBU_TECH #SSBU_IC #SSBU_ICS pic.twitter.com/AzaP8szuDI

— v23 (@v23God) April 18, 2019

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

3.0.0 ICE CLIMBERS ARE BROKEN. get ready for a monster coming at you.

instant cheerless grab. unlimited options. super easy. controller footage included. #SSBU_TECH #SSBU_IC #SSBU_ICS pic.twitter.com/AzaP8szuDI

— v23 (@v23God) April 18, 2019

Delete this

In all seriousness tho, what changed in 3.0.0 that caused this? Is it a bug?

Re: 3.0.0: I got what I wanted, I think. Minimal changes, nerfs to projectiles were necessary. I know no one wants to hear it, but without perfect shielding from past games, projectiles are really strong in this game by comparison. From what I understand they only nerfed their shield damage, which I think is fair. Samus and so forth need buffs, absolutely, but I don't think blocking a missile + charge shot should immediately shield break just in principle.

I still think Wolf dsmash is too good at the ledge, but at least it will kill a little bit later. Ness is my main and I think the yoyo nerfs are more than justified. I like the direction of the buffs to Kirby and Mewtwo, hopefully there will be more coming down the pipe.

This was a good, sensible, careful patch and we should all be grateful for it, as should we be grateful for Joker not being (at least apparently) busted on release.

 

[NotLiquid]

Explain where. Or better yet, name a trait that Joker is better than at least say... 20 other characters at. KO'ing, recovering, edgeguarding, combos, camping, walling, approaching or any others you can think of.

He might not be bad right off the top, but its hard to see how he is going to hang with the characters who can take him for a 0-50% ride where he can't do that in return, outlive them or KO earlier.

I'm not going to make a list of characters here, but Joker's edgeguarding, camping and recovering are most certainly not bottom 20 by said approximation. Joker can actually camp relatively easy given that he's got good mobility, a low-profile dash, Gun not being considered a projectile, and the dodges off of gun not being affected by the dodge lag multiplier. If anything I suspect in short term a lot of his game plan is going to revolve around camping given his fast attacks, mobility and sub-sword range. His edgeguarding is solid given that two of his moves kill off-stage, one of them basically being a Falcon/Ganondorf Nair, and having a third move that's actually able to gimp low recoveries pretty violently. Combo game is worth questioning but you're not going to find quick results when the character has barely been available for 10 hours yet. KO potential is definitely not low-tier given he has multiple ways to hit confirm into aerials, dragdowns and jab locks.

Considering how easy he actually builds Arsene when he's getting worked, it's not actually all that bad. Right now he gets rewarded for failing to camp, and zoners are going to suck against him given that projectiles = free meter. He's a high skill floor character, which might not be a good thing given that most Smash players right now are going to be looking for "easy wins", but my initial impression of him is that they put out a pretty good character who's only "underwhelming" in the sense that he doesn't meet up the same expected standard of "busted DLC", or the assumption that any character that isn't top tier material has to worthless. Most of his actual problems in the game are likely going to mean he will end up struggling against zonebreaker characters. But the poster that claims he leans Piranha Plant is a borderline laughable statement that yes, I have to suspect is a take that will age pretty badly.