Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[$.A.F.]

Not out yet. Hence the incoming. They come out same time as everything else.

 

[Nate1080]

Tbh, I wish they made patch notes available at least a day before the patch drops.

Almost every other game these days does something to that effect.

 

[IsmaR]

Are they out yet? Where can I get them if they are?

Nintendo will likely post them when this announcement gets posted in game (scheduled in a little over 6 hours).

As per usual, we'll have the official thread up and be testing things/interpreting Nintendo's confusing vernacular as soon as it's available.

That thread will be locked to prevent the infinite placebos that get reported. Anything with actual backing/evidence can be posted in the thread Shaya linked.

https://smashboards.com/threads/patch-3-0-0-persona-edition-discussion-thread.482561/

^ Speculah/etc ^

 

[SwagGuy99]

Nintendo will likely post them when this announcement gets posted in game (scheduled in a little over 6 hours).

Cool Thanks!

 

[Rizen]

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-prime-saga-1/events/ultimate-singles/brackets/495899/859565
2GG: Prime Saga (804 entrants) (SoCal)

1. Shuton
2. zackray
3. Light
4. Nairo
5. Ally
5. Tea
7. MkLeo
7. Tweek
9. Samsora
9. Mr. R
9. Dabuz
9. Glutonny
13. YB
13. Mr E
13. Nicko
13. Stroder
17. T
17. quiK
17. Larry Lurr
17. Teb
17. VoiD
17. Myran
17. ven
17. Stryker
25. Sparg0
25. cookieslayer
25. WaDi
25. ImHip
25. ZAKI
25. Megafox
25. Heavy
25. Marss
33. Charliedaking
33. Eon
33. Pandarian
33. Akashic
33. Legit
33. Javi
33. K9sbruce
33. Magister
33. ESAM
33. Ki
33. BestNess
33. Shoe
33. Juice
33. Lui$
33. CaptainZack
33. Mudomo
49. VaLoR
49. AvoiD
49. Circuit
49. Overlade
49. Banana Boy
49. PoisonHealth
49. Klaatu
49. Jonny Westside
49. BBW
49. Lumbre
49. Ismon
49. Captain L
49. Leffen
49. Armando
49. Brandon
49. zael

Spoiler: Rest of top 96

65. Locus
65. PiXL
65. varun
65. sitani
65. Silverfox
65. taiwanman0610
65. Kobazco
65. Jumpsteady
65. Prodigy
65. Ez
65. SM
65. JEFFsoBOMB
65. Pain
65. Cyro
65. Debo
65. Ako
65. SlayerZ
65. Slither2Hunter
65. SnaggleTooth
65. Elegant
65. Salem
65. Brosinex
65. Trela
65. TLTC
65. Vintendo
65. SweetT
65. Rice
65. Z
65. Jakamu
65. Afro Smash
65. Karna
65. Paper

I know Joker's coming but can we talk about YB getting 13th at Prime Saga with Dark Samus? What, if anything, does this mean for the character? TBH I crammed Samus into mid tier because I know little about her. Could she be a sleeper counterpick character or is YB just really good?

 

[Wunderwaft]

I know Joker's coming but can we talk about YB getting 13th at Prime Saga with Dark Samus? What, if anything, does this mean for the character? TBH I crammed Samus into mid tier because I know little about her. Could she be a sleeper counterpick character or is YB just really good?

YB is just really really good, he's the one carrying the character. Samus unfortunately has too many bad stuff to be considered a high tier character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I know Joker's coming but can we talk about YB getting 13th at Prime Saga with Dark Samus? What, if anything, does this mean for the character? TBH I crammed Samus into mid tier because I know little about her. Could she be a sleeper counterpick character or is YB just really good?

Samus seems solid, but whether she is high tiered remains to be seen. If YB or any other Samus player continues to get results like this, then the possibility may seem so. The issue is that YB is most likely going back to being a online threat over in Japan, so showings from him appears to be limited atm. Who knows? Maybe another Samus player would go off and something like what he did in Prime Saga, but time will tell.

I don't think Samus, however, is a good counterpick character. You have to invest a lot of time with the character to get the best showings with her. She must be used tactically and having access to movement options using the charging of Charge Shot also helps too. ESAM is right now the only person who does this, but he played Samus in every Smash game (maining her in 64 and Melee as well) so he already has the experience.

Upper-mid seems to be where she is right now, which is around where she is in Melee as well.

Edit: Also 1 more hour left until 3.0.0. Hype!!!

 

[Avokha]

You have to invest a lot of time with the character to get the best showings with her. She must be used tactically and having access to movement options using the charging of Charge Shot also helps too. ESAM is right now the only person who does this, but he played Samus in every Smash game (maining her in 64 and Melee as well) so he already has the experience.

Upper-mid seems to be where she is right now, which is around where she is in Melee as well.

Edit: Also 1 more hour left until 3.0.0. Hype!!!

Do you guys think that a character requiring a large amount of investment and practice to do well with inherently hurts that characters viability? After all, it's not like said character isn't capable of doing very fancy things in the game, but the amount of experience required would mean less people effectively utilising said characters traits, and therefore less results. Thoughts?

 

[meleebrawler]

Do you guys think that a character requiring a large amount of investment and practice to do well with inherently hurts that characters viability? After all, it's not like said character isn't capable of doing very fancy things in the game, but the amount of experience required would mean less people effectively utilising said characters traits, and therefore less results. Thoughts?

At the end of the day, if that effort can get you results at the top level, isn't that all that matters? Characters like , and aren't really thought of any less for being unintuitive/difficult to use effectively.

 

[Minordeth]

I know Joker's coming but can we talk about YB getting 13th at Prime Saga with Dark Samus? What, if anything, does this mean for the character? TBH I crammed Samus into mid tier because I know little about her. Could she be a sleeper counterpick character or is YB just really good?

YB is really good and Damus is a good character. It helps that her kit actually got tweaked to flow together now.

Beyond QoL tweaks, probably the two biggest buffs she got are:

1.) Bombs being better.

Bombs getting a buff helps immensely to her walling ability, and makes her Sm4sh weakness to rush-down characters, like Fox, more manageable. They are also key to escape grounded pressure with the addition of CS canceling, and add to her overall aerial mobility, especially in disadvantage.

2.) Charge Shot canceling.

Infinite applications here. Her movement and conditioning game become something else now that CS can be canceled into imagination.

YB is just really really good, he's the one carrying the character. Samus unfortunately has too many bad stuff to be considered a high tier character.

What “bad stuff” are you talking about? Because, so far the misconceptions about the character outweigh accurate info.

The_Bookworm - Esam isn’t the only Samus to use CS-based movement at all. Every Samus uses her CS-based movement to varying degrees.

Also, YB vs Void got uploaded folks, if you want to see how the buff of the aforementioned moves came in into play.

Disclaimer: some NSFW language in the background.

 

[Rizen]

YB is really good and Damus is a good character. It helps that her kit actually got tweaked to flow together now.

Beyond QoL tweaks, probably the two biggest buffs she got are:

1.) Bombs being better.

Bombs getting a buff helps immensely to her walling ability, and makes her Sm4sh weakness to rush-down characters, like Fox, more manageable. They are also key to escape grounded pressure with the addition of CS canceling, and add to her overall aerial mobility, especially in disadvantage.

2.) Charge Shot canceling.

Infinite applications here. Her movement and conditioning game become something else now that CS can be canceled into imagination.



What “bad stuff” are you talking about? Because, so far the misconceptions about the character outweigh accurate info.

The_Bookworm - Esam isn’t the only Samus to use CS-based movement at all. Every Samus uses her CS-based movement to varying degrees.

Also, YB vs Void got uploaded folks, if you want to see how the buff of the aforementioned moves came in into play.

Disclaimer: some NSFW language in the background.

Yeah, they've got a deranged fan there game 3, lol.
It's sets like this that keep me from saying Pichu is a contender for best character. He dies so early to everything. One good read at 60% and Pichu's history.

 

[The_Bookworm]

We are now in countdown mode for 3.0.0. Less than 10 minutes left before this thread explodes from analyzing patch notes.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We are now in countdown mode for 3.0.0. Less than 10 minutes left before this thread explodes from analyzing patch notes.

*25% Analyzing patch notes and 75% people randomly coming out of the woodwork with placebo claims

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45075#

This is it. There is actually universal changes as well.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So far it looks like most top-high tiers were left alone and many low to mid tier characters got some buffs.

I cant say for sure but the only notable nerfs top-tiers are to Wolf's Down-Smash, Snakes Nikita and maybe Pichu getting bigger hurtboxes in some areas

 

[NotLiquid]

https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45075#

This is it. There is actually universal changes as well.

I don't know what perplexes me more, the fact that Olimar actually seems to have gotten buffs or that Bayonetta got nerfed(?!) yet again. At least Olimar seems to do less shield damage with certain attacks.

Inkling's roller got another "nerf" in that it may look like a nerf on paper but because of where that nerf was applied it's technically a buff. Very few Inkling players ever get any use out of re-accelerating roller (i.e turnaround, etc), so the fact that knockback on it is lessened means it might actually open up combos in the extremely rare chance you get hit by it. Since it's almost entirely used as a kill confirm for the time being, it's pretty much untouched. I don't think this character is going to get any major changes anytime soon.

Wolf's neutral got nerfed. Blaster does less shield damage, and DSmash won't be as great of a read anymore. I can see why Zackray may have been labbing for other characters.

Corrin got buffed as hell.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Better grabs to all swordies.
It's over, man.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Almost every projectile was nerfed against shields in some way. Its not that Bayonetta was targeted, its part of a universal effort.

 

[ARISTOS]

This is less a "change things up" patch and more seems to bring characters closer to the developers vision.

Projectiles as a whole seem to have gotten nerfed though.

got injected with horse steroids

 

[zeldasmash]

Damn, Corrin. So far, you are looking like the winner of the patch. Mewtwo coming quite close.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This is less a "change things up" patch and more seems to bring characters closer to the developers vision.

Projectiles as a whole seem to have gotten nerfed though.

got injected with horse steroids

I wouldn't be calling the buffs "horse steroids" until we actually know the magnitude of impact. Same with Corrin and K.Rool's buffs. Could be such minor changes to numbers that they're barely noticeable.

 

[$.A.F.]

Anyone else having server communication errors?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

King K. Rool Forward Air Attack - Increased the high-damage range.
King K. Rool Side Tilt Attack - Increased the high-damage range.
King K. Rool Up Throw - No longer affected by the wind while throwing.
King K. Rool Side Special - Reduced the power against shields.
King K. Rool Down Special - Reduced vulnerability when the counter succeeds, reduced vulnerability when the counter fails.
King K. Rool Up Air Attack - Reduced vulnerability.


**** yeah baby!

 

[Siledh]

Seems zoners have been primarily targetted in this patch. An attempt to lessen campy playstyles?

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

So uh... Yeah... Um. They really listened to the community regarding Bayonetta.

I expected nothing and Im disappointed.

In better news: the patch notes seem to be super good for some people, with some characters getting buffs that, while I don't think will help them too much, are nonetheless good buffs (Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina), and other characters getting some pretty good buffs to help them out (Corrin, Mewtwo especially), and finally some bug fixes (DK, Olimar).

I'm still super disappointed and may quit if it wasn't for my outstanding trying spirit (please kill me) I would prolly quit. In the meantime, let's lab some stuff out and see where we go from here.

Congrats to the lucky mains.

 

[blackghost]

So far it looks like most top-high tiers were left alone and many low to mid tier characters got some buffs.

I cant say for sure but the only notable nerfs top-tiers are to Wolf's Down-Smash, Snakes Nikita and maybe Pichu getting bigger hurtboxes in some areas

most of the characters that needed buffs received something well except bayo.

 

[Rizen]

All zoners got a little bit worse with no compensation. Meanwhile sword characters got better dash grabs and several deserving characters got buffed. This shifts the meta away from projectiles who weren't really dominating it anyway. Not a good day for YL. It won't suddenly make his MUs bad but it's a tad easier to rush him down now.

I predict strong results from the FE gang. Swords were already good and they indirectly got better. Ironically it doesn't necessarly help heavyweights as many of them like DDD got their projectiles nerfed.

 

[DJ3DS]

King K. Rool Forward Air Attack - Increased the high-damage range.
King K. Rool Side Tilt Attack - Increased the high-damage range.
King K. Rool Up Throw - No longer affected by the wind while throwing.
King K. Rool Side Special - Reduced the power against shields.
King K. Rool Down Special - Reduced vulnerability when the counter succeeds, reduced vulnerability when the counter fails.
King K. Rool Up Air Attack - Reduced vulnerability.


**** yeah baby!

I think it's premature to celebrate this. It's just improved sweetspots and less lag on a counter and upair, the latter of which may still be far too laggy to be usable anyway. None of these buffs really do anything meaningful for k rool.

 

[Kiligar]

The balance patch is extremely disappointing to put it simply. The best thing they did was nerf Wolf D-Smash. Mii Gunner got straight up destroyed. Mid tier characters, such as my main Pit, as well as Duck Hunt, Falco, Rosalina, Dr.Mario etc received nothing for them to take on the top tiers. As for the projectile meta being nerfed, nice. But the swordie grab range buff is gross. Lucina is #1 now balance team, congrats. Why the pessimism? We’ve waited a long time for this patch, and with all the hype the low tiers remain low bar K.Rool, and all the top tiers are barely touched.

 

[KirbySquad101]

actually seems to be one of the best beneficiaries from this patch; not just from his own buffs, but zoners and strong projectiles were basically his kryptonite in a lot of match-ups; this definitely makes things more manageable for him. Of course this is just stuff in theory, so I don't want to be too certain.


That said, poor; this is the 2nd time he's been nerfed now, and unlike the first time, he didn't get any compensation at all. Meanwhile, and are getting grab buffs, which does sound confusing at first glance, but I imagine it was because the developers intended to have their grab range be that good from the start.

EDIT: Also, didn't get a nerf to his Chef. Swweeeeeeeeeetttttttttttttttt.

 

[Gleam]

These patches seem to really indicate that there's less emphasis on buffing or nerfing on any kind of competetive level and more just fixing up what the developers see as errors. Some of these have really helped out characters like Corrin, who needless to say, certainly deserve the love.

But take Ganondorf who is now more easily damaged in the air. Who knows, this might have been an error that was effecting Ganon over the rest but instead of necessarily balancing a character, it just makes an already weak character struggle even more.

Plant is similar, it's nice that things like his Neutral Special got buffed but that's not what Plant struggled with. If anything, his neutral special was one of the things that was actually good about him. You'd expect maybe some buffs on his aerials, maybe fix up his Up-B so there's less vulnerability when landing, etc.

Overall, I think it gives a telling sign of what the developers are really looking at and it's not necessarily to make the character's better or worse as it is, again, to just kind balance out what they might see as overall errors to the game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What I got from this:

In general, projectiles are less effective against shields. It is a little nerf to projectile characters. I think this impacts the most, but they are nevertheless still effective tools.

Unfortunately doesn't have short-hop fair autocancel yet. At least Flare Blitz will no longer whiff against small characters, so I guess that is nice.
They removed the turnip difference between her and Peach. They really are carbon copies now, huh?
Mains of DK got their wish: the Punch appears to have been fixed.
She got some really nice QoL buffs. The pin, up B, and neutral B buffs strike me the best. There is hope for her yet.
Also got some nice QoL buffs. Not entirely sure if these improvements impact him that much, but is nice to see regardless.
Appears to have received yet another "nerf" to her roller, that may be a small buff in disguise.
He is in the game now.
Got some QoL buffs. I don't think it is really impactful, but it is nice to see the croc get some love.
Seems like they fixed copy ability RNG, which is cool. The up B, n-air, and up smash buffs are also nice as well. Not sure what is the point of the down throw change, but ok.
Seems like the Blue Bomber got nerfed. Weakened projectiles on shields and a nerfed Leaf Shield.
Geez this guy got BUFFED. A lot of QoL changes plus a weight increase. Not sure about the magnitude of the weight increase, but it nevertheless nice.
Changes to yo-yo seems like a minor to it, but still stupid good tools. Just not as spammable as before. Seems like it's interaction with shields where it can decimate shields has been fixed.
Minor nerf to side B, but they fixed smash attacks. I guess that means he is buffed?
Hot take: the change to make it easier to hit might be a secret low-key big nerf. Don't know for sure right now, but is interesting to take a look at.
I have absolutely no idea what Rosa's changes mean. Is it good or not?
Got their dash grabs buffed. Nice little fix as they can randomly whiff for no reason (I am looking at you R.O.B.), but it doesn't really do too much.
A few nice QoL buffs for Sheik (f-air buff especially speaks to me), although I am unsure that these changes actually impact the character too much.
Nikita and up smash seems to have received minor nerfs. Not too big of a change, but it gives Snake players less incentive to mindlessly spam them.
Wii Fit got her projectiles nerfed slightly, but really likes the jab and Deep Breathing buffs.
We all saw the down smash nerf coming. Blaster being less effective on shields is a minor nerf to his neutral. He is still one of the best characters regardless of these changes imo.

All zoners got a little bit worse with no compensation. Meanwhile sword characters got better dash grabs and several deserving characters got buffed. This shifts the meta away from projectiles who weren't really dominating it anyway. Not a good day for YL.

Only Marthcina and Chroy got the dash grab buff and it is more of a fix than an actual buff.

 

[blackghost]

The balance patch is extremely disappointing to put it simply. The best thing they did was nerf Wolf D-Smash. Mii Gunner got straight up destroyed. Mid tier characters, such as my main Pit, as well as Duck Hunt, Falco, Rosalina, Dr.Mario etc received nothing for them to take on the top tiers. As for the projectile meta being nerfed, nice. But the swordie grab range buff is gross. Lucina is #1 now balance team, congrats. Why the pessimism? We’ve waited a long time for this patch, and with all the hype the low tiers remain low bar K.Rool, and all the top tiers are barely touched.

a few things
1. mii gunner wasnt destroyed by the choice of balance mii gunner was destroyed by a system change thats slighlty different although the same result
2. trust me im upset at this patch as well. when i compare how much attention shiek, corrin, and king k got and i look at bayonetta, ken, issabelle, and a few others its really uneven. bayo discord is in shambles and is vocally (and rightfully upset). given most beleiveher not getting buffed is nitendo being scared of the juvenile smash community's reponse.
3. i dont wish for a nerf happy patch changes i think they touched some obvious ones that needed to be reeled in (read nikita) but overall dont destroy good characters just because they are good. someone will always be the top.
4. normally a patch of this size would have more changes especially since it received its own announcement. I found it underwhelming.
5. yes you are right swords will be king.
6. get ready for a lot of DDD complaints online larger sweetspots matter a lot.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

All zoners got a little bit worse with no compensation. Meanwhile sword characters got better dash grabs and several deserving characters got buffed. This shifts the meta away from projectiles who weren't really dominating it anyway. Not a good day for YL. It won't suddenly make his MUs bad but it's a tad easier to rush him down now.

I predict strong results from the FE gang. Swords were already good and they indirectly got better. Ironically it doesn't necessarly help heavyweights as many of them like DDD got their projectiles nerfed.

Well the projectile nefs dont really affect Palu in any way because you should rarely use them for zoning ro "spam them" except when up against big, slow characters barring .

Wait...swords are better, Corrin gets mad buffs and Lucina gets a buff for some crazy reason. FE BIAS IS STILL REAL GUYS!!! lol

 

[Lacrimosa]

I really want to know what Olimar's changes mean.
Is this a change like 2.0.0(?) adjusted his WoL/with spirits performance? If that's the case that's a nerf for him but from the wording alone we can't (or at least I) can't tell if that's a buff or nerf.
Wel'll see. The download seems to crash after a few seconds .

 

[NotLiquid]

Pretty sure lapsed Sheik mains are going to gravitate towards Joker. He feels like a good version of her; crisp mobility and great strings, although unlike her, becomes an actual threat if you're anywhere above 70% when he's on his meter game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The balance patch is extremely disappointing to put it simply. The best thing they did was nerf Wolf D-Smash. Mii Gunner got straight up destroyed. Mid tier characters, such as my main Pit, as well as Duck Hunt, Falco, Rosalina, Dr.Mario etc received nothing for them to take on the top tiers. As for the projectile meta being nerfed, nice. But the swordie grab range buff is gross. Lucina is #1 now balance team, congrats. Why the pessimism? We’ve waited a long time for this patch, and with all the hype the low tiers remain low bar K.Rool, and all the top tiers are barely touched.

Not sure if the change "destroyed" MIi Gunner. It makes its projectiles slightly less effective on shields, but the general gameplan is still there.

The dash grab buff to Marthcina and Chroy isn't too much of a buff. It is more of a fix of the fact that their dash grabs would randomly whiff for no reason (especially against R.O.B.).

 

[Sean²]

The best thing they did was nerf Wolf D-Smash.

Going to argue the Nikita nerf was by far the most needed change. Snake is likely still top tier but might not be able to whip Nikita out to get an edgeguard from the entire way across the stage.

 

[FLGibsonIII]

My only theory on Duck Hunt getting the shaft in general is that they are worried Duck Hunt is too annoying in casual play or something. This really does seem like a patch more oriented to moving characters in line to the developers original vision, but it seems like the developers vision is for Duck Hunt to not be a great character.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lucina is #1 now balance team, congrats.

She not, she wasn't even close to #1 before.

I'm hype for the Corrin buffs.