Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SwagGuy99]

There are also some characters that can shut down the king, like Young Link for example.

Characters with good frame data and good up close game generally destroy DDD. Having good kill potential also helps. and seem to be really bad for DDD as they can abuse his horrid frame data and can combo him so easily.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Speaking of , Ally posted a matchup chart for him a few days ago:

This is my current Snake MU chart. Some could be +0.5 or -0.5. This is based off of what I've played/seen. Remember this is my opinion and doesn't mean I'm correct on everything. pic.twitter.com/50bUp6BbJh

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) April 9, 2019

Note: is supposed to be in the even category, Ally just placed him wrong there.

Some thoughts:

- It looks like a pretty accurate match-up chart for the most part; I'd personally put in the +1 category, he pretty much has everything that makes an exercise in patience for Snake plus an annoying projectile to deal with.

- and strike me as the most confusing, both seem too slow mobility-wise to get around Snake's trapping capabilities and Ike doesn't have a projectile to contest him either. I could be missing something as I don't know these characters very well.

- is also a very bad matchup for Snake in Ally's opinion. I don't know Mega Man very well, so if someone could fill me on this match-up, that would be pretty cool.

I can speak for the Ivysaur match-up against Snake.

Razor Leaf is equally if not more spammable than Snake's projectiles and the main three things that Snakes fear are Uair, Dair, and Vine Whip. Uair leads to more Uair combos, has a huge hitbox that can catch Snake trying to drop grenades or C4s from above. Vine Whip can hit Snake if he tries to recover high while Dair (also a massive hitbox) can cover low recoveries super well (basically a free stock). Obviously, a good Snake can play around these things and mix-up recovery and whatnot but overall I think it's definitely in favor of Pokemon Trainer (not to mention Squirtle can combo 0-50 fairly easily, get in with Withdraw, etc...). Even Charizard isn't bad against Snake, with good speed on the ground to close the gap and the giant hitbox of Bair can get some stocks if Snake tries to recover high.

 

[blackghost]

Speaking of , Ally posted a matchup chart for him a few days ago:

This is my current Snake MU chart. Some could be +0.5 or -0.5. This is based off of what I've played/seen. Remember this is my opinion and doesn't mean I'm correct on everything. pic.twitter.com/50bUp6BbJh

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) April 9, 2019

.

some of those MUs in 1 such as puff, bayo and shiek should be ranked at 1.5 or even 2. pretty mu the entire bayo discord sees snake as 7:3. some players even worse. When the general response to someone asking how your character beats another and you answer "go to character select." its pretty bad.

shiek has to repeatedly win neutral to have a good chance and that wont go over well.

puff loses every grenade trade and then gets anti aired with uptilt. not to mention when you are that light every trapping explosive, nikita missle, or hit just favors snake too hard i'd think that MU is heavily in snakes favor well beyond just plus 1.

 

[FruitLoop]

Characters with good frame data and good up close game generally destroy DDD. Having good kill potential also helps. and seem to be really bad for DDD as they can abuse his horrid frame data and can combo him so easily.

To be fair, anyone that either: Has good frame data/rushdown abilities that can approach safely without worrying about hammer, has lots of range to combat DDD's range to help with defensive gordo control or just having a sword can probably annihilate DDD due to having better frame data, or a character with good zoning options. Basically what I mean is 85% of characters mid tier and above at the very worst goes even vs DDD with most chars just outright winning vs him ironically. Though to be fair Doc vs DDD is prolly like DDD favor slightly and Luigi might be even.

 

[ZephyrZ]

shiek has to repeatedly win neutral to have a good chance and that wont go over well.

I'm no Sheik or Snake player but in theory I think she has a few good tools against Snake. Amazing mobility and frame data gives her the ability to zonebreak. Vanish also seems like it'd be a huge help offstage, and can allow her to bypass Nikita or his Up Smash, which is an ability a lot of characters wish they had.

On paper she should be a character who beats Snake I feel, but only doesn't because of that aforementioned under tuned damage output and kill options. Maybe I'm missing something here but I'd imagine she'd at least stand a fighting chance.

 

[PK Bash]

Characters with good frame data and good up close game generally destroy DDD. Having good kill potential also helps. 

This point is interesting to me because one of the big selling points of DDD is his massive threat bubbles (ftilt etc) that (in theory) synergise well with gordo to keep people out and in my head, it seemed to me that more zoner-type characters would give DDD hell. Villager for example has useful slingshot arcs to poke at DDD's blindspots and catch his jumps/gordos with little risk to himself. You can also see this with MM's pellets and Young Link's Fire Arrows. These chars can funnel him into down tilting a lot just to get through their gameplan. And this has obvious implications for offstage play too, punishing DDD for sitting in place with jumps.

I'd love it if you could elaborate a little, particularly on Doc, as I don't yet think these characters necessarily have such compounding advantages - I'd love to consider your perspective.

That said, I do think Ness is strong vs DDD (I've had a lot of exp in this mu, including a valuable set vs Peli) and he falls firmly into your archetype. This is because though, again, he is great at hitting DDD's blindspots (FHPKF on the ground, Forward Air stuffs out his aerials pretty reliably except for back air), has fantastic anti-gordo play (Magnet totally protects Ness, is low commitment and sends gordo back at a useful threatening angle) and powerfully harrases him offstage (fthrow for example often puts DDD in a rough spot, from which if you can use PKT and aerials to harass him out of his jumps/high up B, down smash is exceptionally good on DDD).

I feel like factors such as these are also immensely important when handling DDD, personally. A lot of little things about him to exploit if you have the tools - I feel zoners are best inherently geared to this, with a few interesting exceptions.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I'd love it if you could elaborate a little, particularly on Doc, as I don't yet think these characters necessarily have such compounding advantages - I'd love to consider your perspective.
.

I'd argue that does well here is because of several reasons although I would say it's not unwinnable for .

1. has some of the best frame data in the game along and powerful attacks in general which allow him to KO at pretty early percents.

2. While does have a reflector, pills can be overwhelming and allow for big openings for .

3. Cape is a decently safe option to use against 's recovery (Doc has other good edgeguarding options as well such as down-b).

4. is about on-par with Dedede in movement speed.

5. can juggle and combo Dedede very well (not nearly as well as other characters but it is still worth mentioning).

However, I do think does have some strengths in this matchups that makes this matchup at least somewhat do-able for him.

1. Despite 's slow attacks, his range is very good and if he is able to avoid 's pills, may have some trouble approaching.

2. can edgeguard pretty well.

3. will die just as early to 's attacks (and vice-versa)



Also, in general, these close range characters can either combo to ridiculous percents, punish most of his attacks, and/or juggle him until high percents.

 

[blackghost]

I'm no Sheik or Snake player but in theory I think she has a few good tools against Snake. Amazing mobility and frame data gives her the ability to zonebreak. Vanish also seems like it'd be a huge help offstage, and can allow her to bypass Nikita or his Up Smash, which is an ability a lot of characters wish they had.

On paper she should be a character who beats Snake I feel, but only doesn't because of that aforementioned under tuned damage output and kill options. Maybe I'm missing something here but I'd imagine she'd at least stand a fighting chance.

ok lets say shiek zone break snake and starts a fair string. snakes presses b. shieks loses the trade.
shiek grabs snake and tries for a di mixup on a platform. snake presses b.
shieks vanish isnt invincible on startup now so she has to go through the entire startup animation before she gets hit with Nikita to get away.
i cant see past a lack of dmaage. the goal is to rack up percent then knock someone into the blast zone shiej fundementally is bad at the core aspect of the game.

shiek in ultimate reminds me a little of x-23 in umvc3 (minus the insta kill setup). she has all the tools, mobility, frame data, and utility of a high or top tier but doesnt hit hard enough. not hitting hard enough is a huge liability to overcome. its easier to be a lacking character that hit extremely hard than a well tooled character that hits like a wet noodle.

 

[Shaya]

I think the whole "Snake has all this counterplay and match up inexperience is carrying him" notion is a tad silly, even if I'm about to contradict myself slightly. To briefly summarize why - his recovery and anti-juggle options have been significantly buffed in this game overall. Snake air dodge landing into the ground with a frame-one shield was kinda dumb, but it lost to the same thing it loses to in this game a majority of the time anyway: grab.

Snake pressing B in disadvantage state in an otherwise guaranteed string situation and blowing up the attacker/trading is likely the fault of the aggressor.
There would be some niche/match up exceptions - some characters with really big hitboxes that can just "appear" (Sheik Vanish, sure) and have lacking mobility in some key areas (Dedede and Ike kinda come to mind, but as characters with disjoint they too can mitigate this almost entirely), they might not have the time to reposition themselves or cover escape options as well.

It's about awareness.
Is Snake facing forward or backward at the time? This is something you didn't need to think about as much in Brawl when dealing with Snake's disadvantage state as their facing would always switch to face you after being hit.
Why does that matter? Because Snake's frame one grenade spawns behind him.

And Snake's grenades don't explode just because you hit him, they have to hit the grenade too. A tiny hurtbox, spawning in a static position
(Smashers, smh, gonna complain about not being able to hit Pichu but complain about hitting Grenades, smh smh smh </facetiousjoke>).
Hitbox extension is a thing that makes this trickier, but general rule of thumb is you aim for his head or legs.

Awareness leads you into choosing to wait or pick a more optimal position instead of continuing your bread-and-butter muscle memory string or combo.
So if Snake is facing away from you, maybe one should look at dashing through/underneath them, landing and looking for a grab or flipping from a horizontal attack to a vertical one. If a wavebounce is on the cards (hint: it's 4/5 of the cards in his hand), expecting the flip of nade position is important, but I believe it's 4ish frames before the nade moves "behind him" when he does (the switch to a vertical option here is ideal).

This waiting opens options up for Snake such as a semi-reactionary aerial, which for a character like Sheik can be pretty difficult to cover (outranged/outdisjointed/outdamaged and hurtbox shifting moves, fun). In general this comes down to back air, so him facing away from you, his already "good" disadvantaged position. Why are you trying to beat him where he has the most options/where he's at his best?
More developed counterplay involves taking advantage of being a lower % and being able to use laggy / free fall inducing moves mid-string and maintaining frame advantage at the cost of some more %.

-----

I didn't mention in my previous post, but another thing to strive towards: if you don't have a means of justifying a statement thoroughly, or it's something we all should know, there's not much point in making a post to state the obvious. It is known, Khaleesi.
Generically listing some characters that share some perceived "capability".
e.g. So characters with good frame data give heavies issues once they get in? Or that they move fast and can run away from a slower character?
This is an observation that could be made by those who have not even played the game before! You don't need to have a Bachelors in Mathematics to know 1+1=2. There can be a very fine line between guessing and a hypothesis, I know.
We can do better!

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

My two cents on DDD.

DDD's frame data is odd. He actually has a good number of decent, fast attacks. He just doesn't get anything from those moves. No significant shield pressure. No early KOs from his safe stuff. But he does have a lot of good buttons. DDD ends up playing for a bunch of single hits, hoping that he gets you off the stage where he can really shine. But its a painful process.

The problem is almost everything DDD does is safe for your opponent to shield. DDD's game plan is to make sure you don't shield. You have to use Gordos to keep your opponent from shielding all the time, since they do decent shield damage. This forces them to commit to attacks or move around them. Then you can actually play neutral, fishing for the whiffs and poor defensive options.

Outside of block? DDD has pretty solid numbers.

On the ground, his u-tilt and d-tilt are frame 7 and 6 with end lag in the high 30s. That is right on par with Wolfs tilts, for comparison. Grab is frame 8, with decent range, but grabs suck in general in this game. You aren't surprising anyone with a dash grab from DDD!

From a short hop, he has a Nair @ frame 7 or a Fair @ frame 13. Worst one you would throw out in neutral is Bair @ 17. End lag in the teens. Only slightly slower than the aerial powerhouse; Ike. Its only a few frame difference.

But heaven forbid your opponent shields...

He does have some frame problems on shields;

1) His tilts suck on block. Dtilt and Utilt have speed, but no range, so if your opponent blocked, you are probably getting hit. F-tilt has the range, buts its frame data disappoints; with 12 frames to start up, 10 frames of active hit box and ~20 frames of vulnerability at the end. You have to be careful with it. Thankfully it has range, but a jump out of shield nullifies it handily. Online warriors love this move, since the lag makes it appear much safer than it really is. Most characters can punish it on block in the absence of lag.

2) Inhale is the real disappointment for him, frame data wise. 20 frames to be useful. Takes almost a second to wind down if you whiff or if the opponent shields. Still 30+ frames even if you snag something. Most projectile users can just shoot a second one to keep pressure up. Better off using aerials to cancel projectiles or shields to approach. Inhale just has such terrible frame properties that it is rarely helpful for shoring up what I think its design was supposed to do; help approach.

3) His disadvantage on block with aerials is considerably higher compared to top tiers too. You aren't pressuring shields without Gordos. Even with a Gordo + an aerial, you don't have great follow ups to a block, so you can't immediately pressure. 90% of the time its better to just dash back on block and reset neutral (Zaki does this a lot!). I wish Inhale was a command grab...

But his real weakness is reward; not risk.

The big difference that DDD has to the top tier threats isn't the frame data. Its the reward you get from his attacks.

DDD's safe moves kill at higher %s than top tiers, despite being a heavy. Its a problem, since you don't have to respect DDD's hitboxes like you do with say... Ganon. His u-tilt isn't killing until like, 130%? D-tilt doesn't send people far enough away to put them in compromising positions. His Fair isn't going to hit outright until really high %s. His Nair sends people out at a non-threatening angles. Up air doesn't end stocks likes Ike's or Palu's can. You really have to build up %s.

Because his safe stuff isn't threatening stocks, your opponent can usually play the long game since you don't have options outside of Bair or Jethammer to end stocks quickly, which are both easy to avoid on stage. Bair fishing is obvious since the DDD is too slow for RAR to catch you off guard and Jet Hammer only punishes obvious approaches or be used at the ledge. DDD becomes almost totally reliant on edgegaurds and ledge traps to take stocks. He is pretty good at this, thankfully, but it creates a big hole in his game.

 

[Rizen]

For super heavies there are characters like and (less-so) who despite being heavy are glass cannons. I've seen Ganon kill Ivysaur at 80% with upsmash and die at 80% from being faired by Lucina twice offstage. Then there are tanks who don't hit as hard but live forever: . Their survival ability adds up over a match. At some point on the road to 200%+ DDD is going to get you offstage or land a power move like smash or DA. If you don't kill DDD outright he'll probably make it back to the ledge between his armored upB and multiple jumps. Weight is important; it determines who wins trades and how much room for error you have. DDD wouldn't be nearly as good if he wasn't so tanky.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

[

For super heavies there are characters like and (less-so) who despite being heavy are glass cannons. I've seen Ganon kill Ivysaur at 80% with upsmash and die at 80% from being faired by Lucina twice offstage. Then there are tanks who don't hit as hard but live forever: . Their survival ability adds up over a match. At some point on the road to 200%+ DDD is going to get you offstage or land a power move like smash or DA. If you don't kill DDD outright he'll probably make it back to the ledge between his armored upB and multiple jumps. Weight is important; it determines who wins trades and how much room for error you have. DDD wouldn't be nearly as good if he wasn't so tanky.

I think I would almost and how he seems to have the lowesr results of superheavies outside of despite being toted as the best super-heavy for a while

Maybe it has to do with DK having am overall terrible disadvantage state, even or a super-heavy. Likely among the worst in the game.
Bowser has a good Oos move in Up-B nd his "tough guy" to eat weaker hits at early %. D3 and. K.Rool have good recoveries that allow them to actullay live a very long time (plus K.Rools belly armour).



plus his recovery has been nerfed a bit from Smash 4 and is easily exploitable. So he kinda seems a glass cannon at times too.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

For super heavies there are characters like and (less-so) who despite being heavy are glass cannons. I've seen Ganon kill Ivysaur at 80% with upsmash and die at 80% from being faired by Lucina twice offstage. Then there are tanks who don't hit as hard but live forever: . Their survival ability adds up over a match. At some point on the road to 200%+ DDD is going to get you offstage or land a power move like smash or DA. If you don't kill DDD outright he'll probably make it back to the ledge between his armored upB and multiple jumps. Weight is important; it determines who wins trades and how much room for error you have. DDD wouldn't be nearly as good if he wasn't so tanky.

I think it was a conscious design approach to super heavies. But it really speaks to the engine; if or or or had better recoveries they would move up the list, likewise, hitting harder would bring him up, or giving some better frame data would bring him up. Nintendo seemed to really be aware of the fact that their engine didn't make weight a liability this time around. Seems to me like they undertuned specific aspects of each super heavy to it balance out.

Online stats will probably prevent any meaningful buffs to the super heavies though. was the writing on the wall.

 

[$.A.F.]

I think it was a conscious design approach to super heavies. But it really speaks to the engine; if or or or had better recoveries they would move up the list, likewise, hitting harder would bring him up, or giving some better frame data would bring him up. Nintendo seemed to really be aware of the fact that their engine didn't make weight a liability this time around. Seems to me like they undertuned specific aspects of each super heavy to it balance out.

Online stats will probably prevent any meaningful buffs to the super heavies though. was the writing on the wall.

Actually even Sakurai himself said that K. Rool was nothing special online and he had an average win rate. He actually thought the character was fine and only listened to the community complaining.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Actually even Sakurai himself said that K. Rool was nothing special online and he had an average win rate. He actually thought the character was fine and only listened to the community complaining.

Well damn, if emotional arguments are getting things patched then we are really screwed.

It would help tremendously if we had access to Quickplay data...

 

[Lacrimosa]

I appreciate Zelda at least being listed as a neutral matchup.

But between Nayrus "get-off-me"/reflection and her own zoning options that bypass or neutralize his, I'd say she may have a slight advantage over Snake... not to mention if they clash in CQC Zelda will usually win-out because of her magic sparkles.

But that's just this posters opinion. I'm no pro.

What I also noticed is that Snake can really edgeguard Zelda (and all other reflector characters, so it's not just her but Palu, Fox, Wolf etc. as well). Nikita falls flat in these MUs but against Zelda, Snake also can't really make usage of his upSmash because her teleport has a hitbox.
I didn't watch MVD vs. Ven, so it would be nice to see how MVD deals with that instead.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well damn, if emotional arguments are getting things patched then we are really screwed.

It would help tremendously if we had access to Quickplay data...

Eh K.Rool didn't really receive any significant nerfs that effect him much at higher level play, just some slight tweeks to make the angry internet hordes shut up. Unlike Incineroar, who actually did receive a significant buff to his survivability.

Most superheavies are in a decent spot this game anyway though. We've seen Ganondorf used as a crazy counterpick, Triple D and Incineroar getting better results then expected, Bowser and DK appear to be lowering in usage but still haven't disappeared off the map completely, and even Charizard seems to be going up in use in some match ups as PT mains start to get more comfortable with him. Not every character needs to be, or should be, a high tier. If not a single superheavy got a buff for the rest of Ultimate's life cycle I'd be content, unless DLC powercreep came along and invalidated them or something.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Well damn, if emotional arguments are getting things patched then we are really screwed.

It would help tremendously if we had access to Quickplay data...

The balance team have more power and experience this time compared to smash 4, one of the lesson they learned was to not make social media the primary source of opinion on balance, they make test based on their own testers, online matchs data, and external opinions, hopeful they stay on this path considering that this game social media community is far more louder that smash 4.

 

[Rizen]

I was labbing and found Bair1 combos into Fsmash (on Mario) starting around 70% with good timing. This is huge because Fsmash is by far YL's strongest kill move and now there's a lower % combo into it. Fair1 combos into Fsmash at around 135% but by then you could also have killed by comboing into the faster but weaker U/Dsmashes. I haven't seen anyone really use this at early %s (like around 100%). Bair1 is risky but this is a big step in fixing YL's late killing problem.

 

[Shaya]

Actually even Sakurai himself said that K. Rool was nothing special online and he had an average win rate. He actually thought the character was fine and only listened to the community complaining.

Translations can be irksome, but I got the exact opposite impression from his varying Ultimate-era articles.
He doesn't want to make balance changes based off of community complaining anymore, and laments how much they did so in Smash4.

 

[NeonNote]

who do think the "best" character in ultimate is? personally, I think it is peach, but I wanna know what other people think

I think it might be Lucina. Although I main Peach, I think her range issues against sword characters keeps her out of the top spot. Not sure where she falls within the top tier though.

 

[$.A.F.]

Translations can be irksome, but I got the exact opposite impression from his varying Ultimate-era articles.
He doesn't want to make balance changes based off of community complaining anymore, and laments how much they did so in Smash4.

Well yes. The balance team decided that and Sakurai went along because he gave up balance control pre Ultimate. He personally didn’t want jack done to him. Error on my part.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

If I can switch up topics. Being a zard enthusiast i've been wondering what specifically about zard should be buffed? I've heard a lot of general suggestions but nothing concrete.

 

[NotLiquid]

Joker is releasing tomorrow. His main gimmick is the fact that he has a counter that works as a stand mechanic, kinda like a combination of Incineroar's Revenge and Cloud's Limit. He builds meter by using his counter, and when it's full, all of his regular attacks are powered up, and all of his specials get an "upgraded version" for a limited time.

Really interesting character with high mobility. Hard to say how he'll fare competitively since there's been nothing quite like him before. Mementos also seems like it could be a counterpick stage once hazards are off.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Joker is releasing tomorrow. His main gimmick is the fact that he has a counter that works as a stand mechanic, kinda like a combination of Incineroar's Revenge and Cloud's Limit. He builds meter by using his counter, and when it's full, all of his regular attacks are powered up, and all of his specials get an "upgraded version" for a limited time.

Really interesting character with high mobility. Hard to say how he'll fare competitively since there's been nothing quite like him before. Mementos also seems like it could be a counterpick stage once hazards are off.

my friend you need to remember that top players hate slants and asymmetric stages, but hopeful gets an opportunity.

 

[KakuCP9]

I really hope Rebel's guard isn't going turn out like Shulk's shield art during hitstun which will make pressuring him at best unintuitive or worse, outright dangerous.

Also, a bigger barrier for this stage will be copyright claims that prevent certain tracks to be played on stream.

Also he has a gun :o

 

[Shaya]

https://smashboards.com/threads/patch-3-0-0-persona-edition-discussion-thread.482561/

^ Speculah/etc ^

 

[Rizen]

Eh K.Rool didn't really receive any significant nerfs that effect him much at higher level play, just some slight tweeks to make the angry internet hordes shut up. Unlike Incineroar, who actually did receive a significant buff to his survivability.

I think the upB hitbox nerf made it so certain spikes can hit him. It was warranted; upB used to be ridiculous.

If I can switch up topics. Being a zard enthusiast i've been wondering what specifically about zard should be buffed? I've heard a lot of general suggestions but nothing concrete.

Reduce Fair and/or Nair's landing lag. Give Zard an aerial to approach with.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Speaking of Zard: Don't you think we should then nerf Ivysaur a tiny bit if we are going to buff the Zard? Because Ivysaur is alreadya great character with some flaws but if we make Zard stronger without touching Ivy at all then this character will probably blow up.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I forgot which time 3.0.0 is coming put. I know it is today, but what specific time it is released. I can tell this thread is going to busy with all Joker and character changes discussion.

I think the upB hitbox nerf made it so certain spikes can hit him. It was warranted; upB used to be ridiculous.

Reduce Fair and/or Nair's landing lag. Give Zard an aerial to approach with.

The funny thing about Zard fair is that it is literally 1 frame away from autocanceling in a short hop. Literally shave off one frame and it autocancels again like in SSB4.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I forgot which time 3.0.0 is coming put. I know it is today, but what specific time it is released. I can tell this thread is going to busy with all Joker and character changes discussion.


The funny thing about Zard fair is that it is literally 1 frame away from autocanceling in a short hop. Literally shave off one frame and it autocancels again like in SSB4.

Last I heard, there's scheduled server maintenance that's supposed to end around 9PM eastern time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Last I heard, there's scheduled server maintenance that's supposed to end around 9PM eastern time.

It starts at 8:50 est and ends at 11ish est.

 

[Lore]

I'm very excited to see how 3.0 shakes things up, especially with Joker.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Last I heard, there's scheduled server maintenance that's supposed to end around 9PM eastern time.

I think that I've heard two things but I'm not sure which one's right. One says this morning, the other one says around 9:00ish tonight.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Patch notes incoming! Wooooooooooo!

Let's get some buffs going around!

Also, Joker looks mighty strong, I'd say he has a solid shot at top twenty.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Patch notes incoming! Wooooooooooo!

Let's get some buffs going around!

Also, Joker looks mighty strong, I'd say he has a solid shot at top twenty.

It's too soon to tell but he has an interesting kit for sure. I'm excited to try Joker out 12 hours from now and see how he stands up against the rest of the cast.

 

[blackghost]

Actually even Sakurai himself said that K. Rool was nothing special online and he had an average win rate. He actually thought the character was fine and only listened to the community complaining.

if this is true this sets horrible precedence an also confirms what happened to virtually every smash 4 top tier.... This will come up again. if you play a top tier that alone may get characters like snake, pichu, wolf, and lucina nerfed.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'm especially looking forward how he handles reflectors, especially Wolf/Fox. A lot of his kit relies on projectiles, based on the trailer.
It would be also interesting if his grabbling hook acts like a commend grab or if it can be avoided by shielding. If the first is the case then Battlefield looks like a really good stage for him.
But yeah, a lot of speculation.

 

[blackghost]

I'm especially looking forward how he handles reflectors, especially Wolf/Fox. A lot of his kit relies on projectiles, based on the trailer.
It would be also interesting if his grabbling hook acts like a commend grab or if it can be avoided by shielding. If the first is the case then Battlefield looks like a really good stage for him.
But yeah, a lot of speculation.

the bullets dont appear to hitstun so reflecting them doesnt matter.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Patch notes incoming! Wooooooooooo!

Let's get some buffs going around!

Also, Joker looks mighty strong, I'd say he has a solid shot at top twenty.

Are they out yet? Where can I get them if they are?