Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

I agree with all the points you mentioned, although I still feel like a character that benefits from being alive at higher percents has a place in a meta dominated by combo heavy midweights and lightweights that generally kill slightly later than other characters or have trouble getting those kills reliably. The fact that many top players play these kind of characters might shape their perspective so that despite Lucario's weaknesses they view him as a major threat.

I would agree to a point, but as the meta ages things such as less reliable kill setups and etc are likely to fade from several characters. Lord knows I've already found an oodle of confirms, combos and lord knows what else on Falcon despite my own & everyone else's initial impressions of him.. and I've been able to translate that into my play very consistently to improve. It seems Fatality is doing a lot for the character overall, Nick looks pretty good too I'd say. I'm only able to kill sooner and more consistently the more I play him to develop my knowledge of him, and I'm betting a lot of the other combo heavy characters will end up the same. As more players begin to incorporate buffer tech and such into their playstyles, as more is discovered, developed and etc.. this meta is looking exciting. Within said meta, I'm never sure I can seen Lucario placing higher than mid-tier.

When you have to be at the verge of death to do what you do best, it's a problem in this meta. With killing only getting easier as multiple characters get more developed or potentially buffed in the future, without some serious development and some good buffs Lucario could end up REALLY hurting. In the Falcon / Luacrio MU I can usually take him out pretty consistently in the 90-115% range if not a little sooner, sometimes a little later. His aura rarely maxes. Id say doing well with Lucario would require some pretty galaxy brain neutral play and godlike DI. Any character with confirmable moves than can kill early (like Falcon's Knee or FSmash) is a huge threat to Lucario. Especially if said character has good burst output, which Falcon does. I'm not just Falcon-biased to this MU, however, as I've fought my fair share of Luacrio players using Cloud and Ike as well and he didn't fare great then either.

That all said, with stuff such as charge cancels being figured out more and more buffer tech being found for these types of characters in general, Lucario could get some pretty dope play optimization as the meta develops. With a few buffs, he could be a candidate for higher up on mid-tier or low high-tier.. but right now he's not doing too hot. Unless the MU involves the other character not being able to kill well / consistently, Lucario never gets full Aura. I understand Aura is his gimmick, but I really wish they'd make it to where he could function better at low percents. If you're in the white with Lucario coming onto a fresh stock and they're in the red at like 120%, you have pretty much zero chance of killing them outside of some miraculous play like a hard read smash attack or something and you're gonna have to eat some damage before you can. That REALLY screws him

 

[Adamonado]

Most exploitable recoveries: (Just Aether)(Or lack of it, more accurately, if Jigg's is recovering low, she dies)

You don't consider as one of the most exploitable recoveries? Heck, I'd even add to that list

 

[N8than]

You don't consider as one of the most exploitable recoveries? Heck, I'd even add to that list

can use bombs to get back to the stage, but his recovery is still far from good.

 

[DelugeFGC]

You don't consider as one of the most exploitable recoveries? Heck, I'd even add to that list

I consider bad and directly exploitable to be two different things. CF's recovery also isn't totally horrible considering his wall jump, Falcon Dive is just extremely linear. Rockcrocking is the only thing that makes it 'exploitable' really, if that's ever fixed his recovery is easily more so in the middle spectrum of recoveries, it's by no means horrible.. just linear as I said. Some stages let his wall jump do a pretty good job of making him harder to edge guard imo. Falcon Dive isn't a nightmare to ledge-snap sweetspot like in Melee, so outside of rockcrocking I really think the whole 'lel CF recovery bad' thing is a bit overstated these days. Cloud's recovery isn't exploitable in the same vein as Chrom's, it works differently. You can outright cancel the descent of Climhazzard, it's very easy to ledge snap with, Cloud doesn't toss his sword up in the air first to expose him to stuff like caping and he also has a wall jump and Limit Climhazzard to factor in. Luigi and Link's as well aren't recoveries I'd call exploitable, just lacking.

Ganon simply has a bad recovery, but rockcrocking hurts him far more so.. maybe. Doc's isn't really exploitable either, just absolute balls. Perhaps Mac, but it's not really his recovery being exploitable, it's more just.. there's nothing stopping you from gimping him for free, ever.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Characters I would consider Low Tier:



Bottom Tiers?



Mid Tier in this game is humongous, and pretty much meme-worthy at this point. High Tier is also probably way overloaded.

 

[DelugeFGC]

In what world is PP worse than Charizard, Isabelle and Mii Brawler?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Are the Belmonts the only ones who can hit the upper platform on BF without an aerial, just their Usmash? That took me totally by surprise.

Ivysaur can reach it with a grounded Vine Whip. I'll bet Palutena's Up Smash would reach the top platform as well.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In what world is PP worse than Charizard, Isabelle and Mii Brawler?

I actually don't think Charizard is bad. In fact, Charizard is quite underrated. He's got great mobility, rather okay air speed, actual options to approach right now, has a reliable kill throw, better recovery than in 4, good OoS option with U Smash, and well that makes him better in my humble personal opinion than Piranha Plant.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

In what world is PP worse than Charizard, Isabelle and Mii Brawler?

Charizard has the speed, range, and kill power to be threatening. PP only has ptooey to try and control the pace of the game. I think PP is worse.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Charizard has the speed, range, and kill power to be threatening. PP only has ptooey to try and control the pace of the game. I think PP is worse.

Excuse me? A character is more than the sum of its B moves. Patooie is at least a projectile PP can use and PP can make people nasty eat damage if used in galaxy brain plays. At least PP has decent enough aerials across the board, the big thing making them fall apart is the Brawl landing lag on them all. PP has better tools in general than Zard, and PP has gotten better results than I've seen from Zard.

PP Sucks, but Zard definitely isn't underrated. He has serious problems.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of tiers. I wonder how good really is. Because he does have a lot of things working against him. He gets camped-out super easy with either strong projectile zoning or swords and big disjoints. He still has his amazing frame data and combo potential, and once he does get in he can still do some absolutely nutty things to you. I know this was also Luigi in Smash 4, but he seems to stuggle a lot more to get in with the overall changes in this game. Plus his recovery is now legitiametly bad and exploitable due to no more rising cyclone.

I think he is a mid-tier in the same vein as . Has some amazing strenghts you cannot deny, but a lot of notable flaws as well that keeps him from going higher

 

[J0eyboi]

Excuse me?

You do...play the video game Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch, correct?

Charizard is tied for 9th fastest run speed in the game, and his airspeed is roughly average. He's definitely not slow.

His range is also pretty damn good. Utilt, Ftilt, and Bair in particular are massive and disjointed, and it's not like the rest of his moveset is stubby, either. Zard has a lot of problems, but none of them are speed or range.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I actually don't think Charizard is bad. In fact, Charizard is quite underrated. He's got great mobility, rather okay air speed, actual options to approach right now, has a reliable kill throw, better recovery than in 4, good OoS option with U Smash, and well that makes him better in my humble personal opinion than Piranha Plant.

Same.

To quote Mockrock: "He's fast, got strong boxing tools, a kill throw that launches off of platforms & his flame thrower alone wins you games in some important match ups."

& that was just Sm4sh.

He's even more mobile in this game!

 

[DelugeFGC]

You do...play the video game Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch, correct?

Charizard is tied for 9th fastest run speed in the game, and his airspeed is roughly average. He's definitely not slow.

His range is also pretty damn good. Utilt, Ftilt, and Bair in particular are massive and extremely disjointed, and it's not like the rest of his moveset is stubby, either. Zard has a lot of problems, but none of them are speed or range.

I overextended the bold when I attempted to italicize it and then undid it, that's my bad. I wouldn't call any of those attacks massive, though they have definite disjoints that could be situationally useful, but that's the problem. There isn't general application for most of his tools, he's condemned a small basket of meh options and he has no truly great ones.

Speaking of his speed, anyway, his run / dash speed and such is nice, but his aerial mobility is pretty crap combined with the meh hitboxes most of his aerials have and I do think it contributes to his problems. It's not as bad as it could be, but it's not stellar. His fall speed also compounds with his size to make him free combo food. His throws don't have the kind of power I'd expect, either.

I don't think losing Rock Smash is the core of his problems or anything like some people do, though. When I think of an extra thicc disjoint, I don't think of a single move on Zard, I think of moves such as Cloud FAir or Ike UAir. Charizard has relatively decent disjoints on a few moves, making them situationally useful at best but the rest of his moves are condemned to an even worse fate. Flare blitz is a tragedy, his smash attacks are extremely punishable and lackluster and his grab is piss too. He doesn't have any kind of significant combo game, follow up game, punish game, offstage game, neutral game or anything. He has a handful of tools that basically atm serve to even out the holes in PT, but he falls apart entirely on his own.

Of the trio that is PT, Zard is the only one of them that makes you feel handicapped and vulnerable when he's forced out. Sure, Squirtle has the kill power of a small baby and Ivysaur can't recover to save his life further offstage, but at least they feel like actual characters with real tools despite their problems. You could play just Squirtle, or just Ivy, and still get good results. Playing just Zard? Not so much.

 

[Foie]

Curious, why do so many people consider anything but low tier? Basically half of the characters mentioned as low tier have better tourney results than her, including: and . Can someone share a high-level match of Puff doing anything noteworthy?

I don't see any ground-shaking improvements from Smash 4, where she was bottom tier. Jab locks and hard reads with sing are basically it, which I don't see working much in high level play. She can't even do a wall of pain with bair...

Yet another nerf to rest doesn't do her any good either. I just see a lot of people consider her mid-tier 4 pretty much just "potential" which is acid which is what happened in smash 4...

 

[DelugeFGC]

Curious, why do so many people consider anything but low tier? Basically half of the characters mentioned as low tier have better tourney results than her, including: and . Can someone share a high-level match of Puff doing anything noteworthy?

I don't see any ground-shaking improvements from Smash 4, where she was bottom tier. Jab locks and hard reads with sing are basically it, which I don't see working much in high level play. She can't even do a wall of pain with bair...

I consider Puff to be somewhere between the ass-end of mid tier, to somewhere near the top of low tier. Even the buffs she received didn't do much at all to help her as it's not really where the problems were.

Also I don't think she's bottom tier or anything, but she is hurting.

 

[NairWizard]

Young Link is fantastic.

When you first play him you might misunderstand him. You might think that he lacks range and disjoint because you keep getting hit by swords, or that he struggles to kill because your opponents are living to 130+.

But these are phantom weaknesses--they won’t actually matter much when you go deeper with the character.

You might wonder why all of his attacks--d-tilt, fire arrow, bomb, b-air, even d-air sometimes--launch his opponent up, because this makes it hard to edgeguard with him; but then you realize the truth: up-b. When properly spaced, up-b kills between 110-130, and he has so many ways to confirm into it that he IS going to get it at the relevant percent. As YL’s opponent you can’t get hit by anything, not even a fire arrow, and it is VERY hard to avoid fire arrow.

The mixups here are unreal; for just one example, YL can jump behind you and feint a cross-up b-air, but drift a little further and then b-reverse a quick fire arrow to hit you instead. Since b-air has little endlag, it’s hard to punish it directly, so very often you’ll try to hit him before he hits you using your superior range--but this just gets you killed, and fast.

Bombs together with boomerang can give him ample cover to nab a setup move too; if you don’t parry, your shield will be worn down enough for him to poke you with either fire arrow to your head or d-tilt to your feet depending on how you angle your shield.

YL has absolutely no issue killing; the more his meta develops, the less you’ll see him struggling with opponents living forever.

The other overblown issue is his range. And yes, he’s absolutely got very limited disjoint with below average aerial mobility, so if you’re trying to air-to-air Chrom or Lucina with your normals you are going to get crushed. The key word here is normals: fire arrow with boomerang and bomb for cover is all you really need to play a solid close-midrange game. Usually the rule of thumb with zoners is that you don’t want to use your zoning tools too close to your opponent. This isn’t so for YL. YL gets tremendous reward from landing his zoning tools at a little beyond point-blank distance and his zoning tools themselves are fast enough to be used safely at that range. You can think of fire arrow as basically a huge sword swing or a fencer’s jab. Absolutely nothing in Chrom’s kit outranges a fire arrow at midrange. So if you’re air to air with him, you can fire arrow safely and he can’t do anything about it. If there’s a boomerang out already before you go in, or you’re holding a bomb, the advantage in neutral is yours.

And even with his low disjoint, he still has a sword--meaning he has some disjoint that’s relevant in some matchups. In particular, his vertical disjoint is solid: d-air is a great tool against brawlers because he spreads his legs/adjusts his hurtbox, and up-air is great both in juggling and combos (you can hit b-air -> up-air -> b-air consistently on medium-height characters on the ground at low percents, and at mid percents up-air is hard to beat even with disjointed normals like Ike’s n-air).

Let’s not forget his tether grab. Tethers are absolutely fantastic against swords, and YL’s is especially effective because you can force characters into choosing defensive options because of the constantly looming threat of fire arrow confirms. Tether characters are actually in a great position in this game universally, and YL enjoys some of the freest grabs in the cast.

YL does have two actual weaknesses--one of these is below average mobility specs (averageish initial dash, poor air specs), which makes him susceptible to pressure, and another is an abusable recovery, which you have to make some mad plays to cover (boomerang/bomb and tether mixups)--but he’s still completely insane. Trust me, you are going to see a breakout performance by some YL main sooner or later at a big major or supermajor. I’d bet on Tweek.

 

[Sean²]

I feel like much of the cast has 0 play time by high or top level players, and as a result, it's not possible to tell how good they are.

I think Doc could be real, but no one really plays him, for example.

There are legitimately too many characters in this game. A lot of characters are going to cap out having mid-level players and/or longtime character purists be their best players as a result - if patches don't push those mid tiers up to the higher end of the list.

 

[|RK|]

There are legitimately too many characters in this game. A lot of characters are going to cap out having mid-level players and/or longtime character purists be their best players as a result - if patches don't push those mid tiers up to the higher end of the list.

Honestly, even Olimar - it's STILL only former Oli mains repping him, and we only know how good Oli is because they're all REALLY good players.

Without that, we'd probably have thrown him in high tier without another thought.

 

[Nocally]

Pikachu would be considered mid tier Without ESAM. Pika would simply not be meta relevant without those results.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

People were, (and some still are) dismissed ZSS at mid-tier at best just weeks ago before Marss started winning with her.



It just kind of happens, epsecilally with a roster this big. Lots of characters who's potential or strengths are not as obvious or apparent at first glace fall under the radar.


Speaking of which. It seems Marss recent success with ZSS had convinced Nairo start learning and using her more seriously, and Tweek has really been practicing YL more and more.

I think this has to do with many pro players being cautious/weary of the potentital balance changes coming in the 3.0.0 update, and that the proved top/high tier characters they have been mostly using in touraments may get nerfed.
So I see players are keppimg characters that are very good , but will likely also fall under the radar of the balance team and avoid nerfs.

Yeah I am looking at you . Lol...umm

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something interesting to note: we all know how much MkLeo believes that Lucina is overrated. Because of that, he began exploring Marth again, and tweeted this a few days ago:

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2 days later:

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The Leo Marth returning?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Something interesting to note: we all know how much MkLeo believes that Lucina is overrated. Because of that, he began exploring Marth again, and tweeted this a few days ago:

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2 days later:

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The Leo Marth returning?

Wow as soon as I made my whole speil. Well as stated inprevious post.Whether MKLeo really thinks Lucina is overated or not, he maybe fears Lucina is going to a target for nerfs the upcoming patch, while Marth is kinda out of peoples attention . So..in that case why not keep Marth as a backup?

 

[Siledh]

Ptooie can work as well.

Ivysaur can reach it with a grounded Vine Whip. I'll bet Palutena's Up Smash would reach the top platform as well.

Fair, but excluding specials, that really only leaves Palu's Upsmash and Snake's.

I just treat the whip/chain like a sword, so it really surprised me it had that vertical range.

 

[Avokha]

There are legitimately too many characters in this game. A lot of characters are going to cap out having mid-level players and/or longtime character purists be their best players as a result - if patches don't push those mid tiers up to the higher end of the list.

I can see this dilemma. There are only so many top level players out there, all with there own personalities and motivations that factor into playing the characters that they play. I can't really think of really a single top level character loyalist repping any of the perceived weaker characters, fighting to prove their characters worth.

The obvious solution to this lack of top player distribution throughout the roster would be for each playerbase to grow their own top level players, but I suppose that's easier said than done.

 

[Rizen]

It's kind of pointless to talk about in a vacuum because he's part of a team but IMO he's underrated. Zard's low tier but has a good f4 jab, great OoS game, pretty good mobility and a great recovery.

Honestly it's more of an issue with large characters in general. Although most are in mid tier imo none are high tier or above. DK's probably the best but he suffers from big hurtbox syndrome like the rest. The truth is sacrificing a little weight to not be a beach ball bouncing above a concert in disadvantage is worth it. Super heavies may be viable but just aren't a high tier build.

Are the Belmonts the only ones who can hit the upper platform on BF without an aerial, just their Usmash? That took me totally by surprise.

All the Link's bombs and several specials can but IDK if you're counting those. Shulk's Utilt might be able to reach idk (Edit, nope!).

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

I know I'm late to the bashing Charizard party, but I have to say that attempting to rank Trainer as three separate characters is never going to work. Charizard is a poor character, but his down B is broken because it makes all his moves magically good.

Charizard isn't straight trash, and is super exploitable in certain matchups, but that never matters ever because you have Squirtle or Ivysaur to squash people with.

If Charizard was a standalone character however and you ignored my pointless convo, Id put him in the bottom 10. He's just poor. But, again, that doesn't really matter.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think tiering PT as multiple characters was inevitable, especially since they were given individual numbered designations on the roster.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

It's kind of pointless to talk about in a vacuum because he's part of a team but IMO he's underrated. Zard's low tier but has a good f4 jab, great OoS game, pretty good mobility and a great recovery.

Honestly it's more of an issue with large characters in general. Although most are in mid tier imo none are high tier or above. DK's probably the best but he suffers from big hurtbox syndrome like the rest. The truth is sacrificing a little weight to not be a beach ball bouncing above a concert in disadvantage is worth it. Super heavies may be viable but just aren't a high tier build.

All the Link's bombs and several specials can but IDK if you're counting those. Shulk's Utilt might be able to reach idk (Edit, nope!).

I think tiering PT as multiple characters was inevitable, especially since they were given individual numbered designations on the roster.

I mean of course, but it should always be remembered that Charizard is going to have plenty of results for a "low tier"

 

[DelugeFGC]

I mean of course, but it should always be remembered that Charizard is going to have plenty of results for a "low tier"

Oh I know, but there are people out there who exist who solely-focus on one character of PT and never use the rest, even if they REALLY should in some situations.

 

[Rizen]

I mean of course, but it should always be remembered that Charizard is going to have plenty of results for a "low tier"

In terms of tier lists I always rank as one character in lower high tier. Like I said before, the whole is greater than the parts.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Everybody needs to sit down and let Mac take his true spot in SS tier, anyway. PT included.

In seirousness, I'd put PT in mid High-Tier myself. Ivy is too good.

 

[Siledh]

It's kind of pointless to talk about in a vacuum because he's part of a team but IMO he's underrated. Zard's low tier but has a good f4 jab, great OoS game, pretty good mobility and a great recovery.

Honestly it's more of an issue with large characters in general. Although most are in mid tier imo none are high tier or above. DK's probably the best but he suffers from big hurtbox syndrome like the rest. The truth is sacrificing a little weight to not be a beach ball bouncing above a concert in disadvantage is worth it. Super heavies may be viable but just aren't a high tier build.

All the Link's bombs and several specials can but IDK if you're counting those. Shulk's Utilt might be able to reach idk (Edit, nope!).

I was mostly thinking of tilts or smashes.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Simon / Richter benefit immensely from platforms despite projectile-heavy characters with strong neutrals typically preferring flat stages, vampire killer is a nightmare when you're below it.

 

[Rizen]

Simon / Richter benefit immensely from platforms despite projectile-heavy characters with strong neutrals typically preferring flat stages, vampire killer is a nightmare when you're below it.

Their whips and axes are great at platform pressuring.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Their whips and axes are great at platform pressuring.

UTilt is pretty much impossible to avoid on the lower BF plats and USmash / UAir also leave you in a position where even the top platform is never safe. Neutral B can give people hell on platforms too.

It's really a shame about their abysmal recovery, they have such astounding pressure and promise otherwise, but man gimping them is so free.

 

[Krysco]

Are the Belmonts the only ones who can hit the upper platform on BF without an aerial, just their Usmash? That took me totally by surprise.

Assuming you mean without going airborne at all (so no specials that cause you to leave the ground) there's:

Spoiler

Bullet Artes on certain moves
Trick Shot if set up right
Hydro Pump
Lloid Trap
Up angled Gordo Throw barely and at a specific range (Note: all these moves I'm listing were tested on Kirby as short, wide characters like him are easier to hit than more humanoid characters like Bayo, ZSS and Marth)
MU dependent: (Pocketed Lloid Trap)(thrown arrow)(Bonus Fruit Bell)(at specific positions)
Specific positions with Boomerang
PK Thunder
Metal Blade
Homing Missile at specific positions
PK Thunder, PK Flash
Bonus Fruit Bell, Fire Hydrant at specific angles
Autoreticle, up smash
Thunder
Ptooie, partially/fully charged Long-Stem Strike
Arrows
Bullet Seed, Vine Whip
Robo Beam at specific positions
Up smash, Axe (literally had to wait for Kirby to dip down during his idle animation so this one basically should never count)
Nikita, up smash, technically C4 if it was planted there prior
Certain Pocketed projectiles
Egg Throw
Din's Fire at specific positions

There's also literally anyone during a match that has any of the following: due to item tossing and due to manipulation of the Trick Shot or Fire Hydrant.

On a separate note, with all the low tier talk, I've seen a lot of mention of Mii Brawler. I'm wondering what exactly makes people view him as low tier. I've been quite enjoying the 1122 (Shotput, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump) setup but then I also only play against my one buddy and then online as well which is a terrible gauge for character viability. I assume people regard him as low tier even with all specials because I see no point in ranking the arbitrary 1111 set.

I can say that he does have flaws, namely with not being able to kill if shields are abused. Fthrow kills Mario at the edge of Battlefield near 200% without DI and Dthrow does the same on the Battlefield platforms. Suplex has no kill power so Brawler has no threatening grabs at kill percent outside of the usual gaining positioning. Bair and dair are his only killing aerials at reasonable percents. From what I've used of him, he does seem to have kill set ups with late nair leading into tech chases for potential smash attacks or side specials (Onslaught or Burning Dropkick) and while I haven't gotten around to testing the percents yet, I believe landing uair and landing fair 1 can kill confirm into Helicopter Kick and possibly up smash for the former.

All of the neutral specials are pretty niche but Shotput at least gives him a projectile and it can help dissuade low recoveries as without Soaring Axe Kick or Thrust Uppercut, Brawler can't go too deep for edgeguards (and again, his aerials are mostly rather poor for the job anyways). Feint Jump gives him an amazing horizontal recovery, a better disadvantage in general and it has invincibility to boot (frames 2-4 though he moves a lot in those few frames). Depending on the stage, there's mix up options for landing with it too. You're able to land on the top platform of Battlefield or one of the side platforms or not kick at all and fall through any platforms and the timing is super lenient for when you can kick.

I can imagine there's basically no notable representation for the character and I'm sure there's flaws he has that I either haven't noticed or I haven't seen how severely damning they are for the character (for example, I can imagine he hates having to deal with disjoints which are plentiful at top level play).

 

[ZephyrZ]

When ranking each of PT's pokemon seperately, I think people tend to overestimate both Ivysaur and Squirtle.

Ivysaur is the closest to a functional character solo. Her disadvantage is really bad her recovery is even worse though, and she can have a hard time approaching it maintaining offensive pressure because of her poor mobility. Probably a mid tier solo, imo. I find any claim of solo Ivy being top tier laughable though, which happens on occasion.

Squirtle, however, is just bad as a solo character. Take Pichu then remove her projectile and all of her kill power. Even offstage Squirtle struggles to finish stocks because his aerials are just so weak. It might not be a perfect comparison, but that's pretty much solo Squirtle. All he can do is get in with smart play and start a combo. Sheik at least has Bouncing Fish, needles, vanish, more range and more raw speed. All Squirtle can do is go for a hard Smash Attack read with his lousy killing hitboxes, or try to get a grab near the ledge (which ain't easy for a character who prefers to approach in most match ups). Solo Squirtle would be low tier, easily. But he's not a solo character and this doesn't directly have to deal with these massive flaws. Ivy and Zard kill just fine, and Zard can survive at obscene percents sometimes.

Which is why I find ranking solo pokemon is kind of silly. People's perceptions of each one is influenced to heavily by how well they work in the team. Squirt does his job really well in most match ups, so people think solo-Squirt has a good match up spread, where in reality he'd lose a lot more match ups if you were for some reason stuck with just him.

Likewise take Charizard away from the team and his neutral and disadvantage may still suck, but its at least his neutral is still salvagable with stage control and some good reads here and there. In fact, here's a hot take for y'all: A theoretical Solo Charizard would more viable then a solo Squirtle.

 

[Game7a1]

I can imagine there's basically no notable representation for the character and I'm sure there's flaws he has that I either haven't noticed or I haven't seen how severely damning they are for the character (for example, I can imagine he hates having to deal with disjoints which are plentiful at top level play).

LeeT still plays Brawler (1111), and he's doing very well in New England (well MA, but my point still stands). He probably might be PR'd there if looking at the local data is correct. Will be interesting to see how he performs at a national.

 

[Hippieslayer]

There was like 1 person in smash 4 who knew how to play charizard.. Sharpy, there were some other decent ones but they didn't come close to his level. Dunno what he does nowadays. Anyway, its pretty hard to accurately judge charizard when no one can play him. When most people pull him out they immediately regress into useless scrubs. I dont get it.

Also, pretty sure Zards fair and bair outranges clouds. They just Arent as disjointed (although zards bair is probs quite disjointed). To the dude who Said Zards aerials dont have great Range: you are convinced the character sucks i get it, its probably true but duuuude out some effort into your posts instead of just eagerly bashing to the point that you start spreading misinformation. I mean you also said his smashes are bad which isnt true either, usmash is pretty dope. Dsmash is fine.

PS: Zards airspeed isnt bad when you consider he has multiple jumps.

Charizard probably just sucks because he lacks something super cheap and hes huge and has a ****y disadvantage state.