Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

There was like 1 person in smash 4 who knew how to play charizard.. Sharpy, there were some other decent ones but they didn't come close to his level. Dunno what he does nowadays. Anyway, its pretty hard to accurately judge charizard when no one can play him. When most people pull him out they immediately regress into useless scrubs. I dont get it.

Also, pretty sure Zards fair and bair outranges clouds. They just Arent as disjointed (although zards bair is probs quite disjointed). To the dude who Said Zards aerials dont have great Range: you are convinced the character sucks i get it, its probably true but duuuude out some effort into your posts instead of just eagerly bashing to the point that you start spreading misinformation. I mean you also said his smashes are bad which isnt true either, usmash is pretty dope. Dsmash is fine.

PS: Zards airspeed isnt bad when you consider he has multiple jumps.

Charizard probably just sucks because he lacks something super cheap and hes huge and has a ****y disadvantage state.

One of the biggest reasons I'm so hard on Zard is the second I see him come out, I either get him into a grab, a NAir 1, a DAir or an AA UAir and just start going to town. It's easy on him, almost free. I know this is a general heavyweight problem, but Zard especially doesn't have good disadvantage tools, and it doesn't matter if the person regresses or not when you lock them into a combo that prevents them from ever making any plays good or bad. Zard makes that easy and stuff like having to DI read and tech chase well go out the window when his hurtbox gets clipped by everything you throw out regardless all topped off by him not having any real viable / consistent means of stopping you besides praying for a window for the glorious Down B.

Zard's aerials don't have great range compared to a lot of other disjoints in the game, that's not untrue. FAir isn't hot **** like some people seem to think it is, its range is entire horizontally focused and it's piss for quick anitairs. BAir is.. BAir. UAir, DAir and NAir all have very low range. Zard doesn't have fantastic range, for a character of his size he desperately needs more.

None of the very little Zard can do amounts to anything when it's extremely easy for him to lose neutral and get flexed on until a stock vanishes or Up B makes him vanish against a majority of the roster. I don't know what people see in him, I really don't. Zard makes you easy to punish, easy to combo, easy to kill.. at the trade off of what exactly? He feels like a tacked on character for secondary recovery situations or desperate kills with very little actual use in PT's overall meta. Between Ivy and Squirt, there's pretty much zero reason to ever switch to him outside of maybe the two aforementioned reasons, otherwise he's disproportionately relevant to the character of PT. It's not like Zard just demands you play him perfect to get results or anything, he's actively putting you at a handicap most of the time.

People keep saying since he's bundled into PT he can't be seen as that bad, but I think that logic actually makes him worse. There's no reason to use him with there's two characters that outshine him in every conceivable way bundled into the same character and he just feels like the punishment that briefly comes out when you die as Ivy. If he was crap on his own at least he'd still be Charizard the low tier, not the ****ty 3rd wheel of PT.

 

[Rizen]

One of the biggest reasons I'm so hard on Zard is the second I see him come out, I either get him into a grab, a NAir 1, a DAir or an AA UAir and just start going to town. It's easy on him, almost free.

Who do you play, like online, tournaments etc?

 

[DelugeFGC]

Who do you play, like online, tournaments etc?

I don't play online at all outside of BA friendlies anymore, the lag is too much. I play in local tournaments, weekly's, offline play with a small group, very rarely LAN and in BA's with people from Discord.

But thanks for the stab.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Well, bair sweetspot is safe on shield, kills super early, can be baited into due to multiple jumps and massive range, fair is still among the better fairs and not entirely horizontally focused at all, utilt is fast not without horizontal range and your go to antiair, jab has good range for being f4 allowing it to punish aerials other chars wouldnt, has multiple kill throws, ftilt is ace, kill options oos, strong edgeguarding..

It does matter a lot that youre fighting people who picked up PT for squirtle and ivy, who use zard to finish stocks and recover. Ergo People who suck at him.

Compare videos of Sharpy to your AVG zard.

Edit: Still think hes rly bad tho.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Well, bair sweetspot is safe on shield, kills super early, can be baited into due to multiple jumps and massive range, fair is still among the better fairs and not entirely horizontally focused at all, utilt is fast not without horizontal range and your go to antiair, jab has good range for being f4 allowing it to punish aerials other chars wouldnt, has multiple kill throws, ftilt is ace, kill options oos, strong edgeguarding..

It does matter a lot that youre fighting people who picked up PT for squirtle and ivy, who use zard to finish stocks and recover. Ergo People who suck at him.

Compare videos of Sharpy to your AVG zard.

Better FAir's compared to what? I can name at least 10 off the top of my head that are far better, and when one of your best tools is THAT it's not great.

I also love how you guys make assumptions off of who I fight and such, real mature. Ad hominem attacks sure do win debates. I'm good on this debate, I thought we were talking about a character and not me and if it's gonna go down that road I'd rather dip now before the trip back to middle school starts.

 

[meleebrawler]

When ranking each of PT's pokemon seperately, I think people tend to overestimate both Ivysaur and Squirtle.

Ivysaur is the closest to a functional character solo. Her disadvantage is really bad her recovery is even worse though, and she can have a hard time approaching it maintaining offensive pressure because of her poor mobility. Probably a mid tier solo, imo. I find any claim of solo Ivy being top tier laughable though, which happens on occasion.

Squirtle, however, is just bad as a solo character. Take Pichu then remove her projectile and all of her kill power. Even offstage Squirtle struggles to finish stocks because his aerials are just so weak. It might not be a perfect comparison, but that's pretty much solo Squirtle. All he can do is get in with smart play and start a combo. Sheik at least has Bouncing Fish, needles, vanish, more range and more raw speed. All Squirtle can do is go for a hard Smash Attack read with his lousy killing hitboxes, or try to get a grab near the ledge (which ain't easy for a character who prefers to approach in most match ups). Solo Squirtle would be low tier, easily. But he's not a solo character and this doesn't directly have to deal with these massive flaws. Ivy and Zard kill just fine, and Zard can survive at obscene percents sometimes.

Which is why I find ranking solo pokemon is kind of silly. People's perceptions of each one is influenced to heavily by how well they work in the team. Squirt does his job really well in most match ups, so people think solo-Squirt has a good match up spread, where in reality he'd lose a lot more match ups if you were for some reason stuck with just him.

Likewise take Charizard away from the team and his neutral and disadvantage may still suck, but its at least his neutral is still salvagable with stage control and some good reads here and there. In fact, here's a hot take for y'all: A theoretical Solo Charizard would more viable then a solo Squirtle.

It's true that there's historically been many characters with trashy recoveries and disadvantage that manage to be top tier regardless. But Ivy just isn't dominating enough to anyone but lower-tiered characters to justify this.

Oddly enough, even though I agree with things Sheik has over Squirtle, I still kinda think the solo turtle is better than her overall. Withdraw is comparable to Bouncing Fish in neutral, can sometimes get early edgeguard kills with Water Gun (or just use it to help his get good positioning), his combos actually do real damage and his smashes, while hard to land actually kill pretty well when they do. And of course he's super tiny.

One of the biggest reasons I'm so hard on Zard is the second I see him come out, I either get him into a grab, a NAir 1, a DAir or an AA UAir and just start going to town. It's easy on him, almost free. I know this is a general heavyweight problem, but Zard especially doesn't have good disadvantage tools, and it doesn't matter if the person regresses or not when you lock them into a combo that prevents them from ever making any plays good or bad. Zard makes that easy and stuff like having to DI read and tech chase well go out the window when his hurtbox gets clipped by everything you throw out regardless all topped off by him not having any real viable / consistent means of stopping you besides praying for a window for the glorious Down B.

Zard's aerials don't have great range compared to a lot of other disjoints in the game, that's not untrue. FAir isn't hot **** like some people seem to think it is, its range is entire horizontally focused and it's piss for quick anitairs. BAir is.. BAir. UAir, DAir and NAir all have very low range. Zard doesn't have fantastic range, for a character of his size he desperately needs more.

None of the very little Zard can do amounts to anything when it's extremely easy for him to lose neutral and get flexed on until a stock vanishes or Up B makes him vanish against a majority of the roster. I don't know what people see in him, I really don't. Zard makes you easy to punish, easy to combo, easy to kill.. at the trade off of what exactly? He feels like a tacked on character for secondary recovery situations or desperate kills with very little actual use in PT's overall meta. Between Ivy and Squirt, there's pretty much zero reason to ever switch to him outside of maybe the two aforementioned reasons, otherwise he's disproportionately relevant to the character of PT. It's not like Zard just demands you play him perfect to get results or anything, he's actively putting you at a handicap most of the time.

Since you like using Falcon, picture this:

You are facing Ivysaur, and he's just managed to grab you or land a close-range Razor Leaf. What happens then? Well, he'll likely get an immediate nair, vine whip or uair if the percents are correct... and then Falcon will just jump away cuz his airspeed is good enough to easily outrun the sauropod's further attempts to follow up. He doesn't even need to risk going to the edge if he was close to it when it happened. This obviously pales in comparison to all the nasty things Falcon can do to Ivy if he lands his combo starters. That is, unless the trainer switches to Charizard after Ivy gets his licks in. Suddenly Charizard's "laughably unsafe moves" don't seem so funny when you're not in a position to just block them, hm? Zard is easily fast enough to pressure Falcon's landing, whose options there are really only a little better than Zard's. So now you really do just have to go to the ledge to avoid letting Zard do that, but it's a lose-lose because whether the trainer sticks with Ivy here or not, both are great at pressuring in ledge scenarios. No good player should just switch to Zard randomly in a bid to stay alive, his best use is to maximise Ivy's advantage state, and then you keep playing as him for as long as you can keep the ball rolling from there. Including when you manage to score a kill while at high percent yourself. Only once it's clear the opponent has managed to fully reset will he switch to the evasive Squirtle and regroup.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Better FAir's compared to what? I can name at least 10 off the top of my head that are far better, and when one of your best tools is THAT it's not great.

I also love how you guys make assumptions off of who I fight and such, real mature. Ad hominem attacks sure do win debates. I'm good on this debate, I thought we were talking about a character and not me and if it's gonna go down that road I'd rather dip now before the trip back to middle school starts.

Oh ok so the PTs ur fighting just happen to be the exception to the rule and have actually explored and gotten adept at using zard unlike the other 99%?

Reading comprehension: its not you im making assumptions about.

 

[Sean²]

Assuming you mean without going airborne at all (so no specials that cause you to leave the ground) there's:

Spoiler

Bullet Artes on certain moves
Trick Shot if set up right
Hydro Pump
Lloid Trap
Up angled Gordo Throw barely and at a specific range (Note: all these moves I'm listing were tested on Kirby as short, wide characters like him are easier to hit than more humanoid characters like Bayo, ZSS and Marth)
MU dependent: (Pocketed Lloid Trap)(thrown arrow)(Bonus Fruit Bell)(at specific positions)
Specific positions with Boomerang
PK Thunder
Metal Blade
Homing Missile at specific positions
PK Thunder, PK Flash
Bonus Fruit Bell, Fire Hydrant at specific angles
Autoreticle, up smash
Thunder
Ptooie, partially/fully charged Long-Stem Strike
Arrows
Bullet Seed, Vine Whip
Robo Beam at specific positions
Up smash, Axe (literally had to wait for Kirby to dip down during his idle animation so this one basically should never count)
Nikita, up smash, technically C4 if it was planted there prior
Certain Pocketed projectiles
Egg Throw
Din's Fire at specific positions

There's also literally anyone during a match that has any of the following: due to item tossing and due to manipulation of the Trick Shot or Fire Hydrant.

On a separate note, with all the low tier talk, I've seen a lot of mention of Mii Brawler. I'm wondering what exactly makes people view him as low tier. I've been quite enjoying the 1122 (Shotput, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump) setup but then I also only play against my one buddy and then online as well which is a terrible gauge for character viability. I assume people regard him as low tier even with all specials because I see no point in ranking the arbitrary 1111 set.

I can say that he does have flaws, namely with not being able to kill if shields are abused. Fthrow kills Mario at the edge of Battlefield near 200% without DI and Dthrow does the same on the Battlefield platforms. Suplex has no kill power so Brawler has no threatening grabs at kill percent outside of the usual gaining positioning. Bair and dair are his only killing aerials at reasonable percents. From what I've used of him, he does seem to have kill set ups with late nair leading into tech chases for potential smash attacks or side specials (Onslaught or Burning Dropkick) and while I haven't gotten around to testing the percents yet, I believe landing uair and landing fair 1 can kill confirm into Helicopter Kick and possibly up smash for the former.

All of the neutral specials are pretty niche but Shotput at least gives him a projectile and it can help dissuade low recoveries as without Soaring Axe Kick or Thrust Uppercut, Brawler can't go too deep for edgeguards (and again, his aerials are mostly rather poor for the job anyways). Feint Jump gives him an amazing horizontal recovery, a better disadvantage in general and it has invincibility to boot (frames 2-4 though he moves a lot in those few frames). Depending on the stage, there's mix up options for landing with it too. You're able to land on the top platform of Battlefield or one of the side platforms or not kick at all and fall through any platforms and the timing is super lenient for when you can kick.

I can imagine there's basically no notable representation for the character and I'm sure there's flaws he has that I either haven't noticed or I haven't seen how severely damning they are for the character (for example, I can imagine he hates having to deal with disjoints which are plentiful at top level play).

I’ve played this character a decent bit, and I honestly think shotput and the command grab are his only saving graces. Without those moves, his neutral gameplan is almost nonexistent. But since the suplex doesn’t kill, whether you use it or not makes you decide whether to sacrifice a good neutral tool, or sacrifice a decent kill move. Range is pathetic, all the recovery moves are pretty mediocre. Gimping this character feels super easy unless he uses the drop kick up B (cannot remember the name and can’t be bothered to go look, sorry), which can cause some to fear going offstage to challenge it.

IMO I think this character is bottom 3, and easily the worst Mii Fighter. Make suplex an actual kill move, and I think he could go up a bit.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I’ve played this character a decent bit, and I honestly think shotput and the command grab are his only saving graces. Without those moves, his neutral gameplan is almost nonexistent. But since the suplex doesn’t kill, whether you use it or not makes you decide whether to sacrifice a good neutral tool, or sacrifice a decent kill move. Range is pathetic, all the recovery moves are pretty mediocre. Gimping this character feels super easy unless he uses the drop kick up B (cannot remember the name and can’t be bothered to go look, sorry), which can cause some to fear going offstage to challenge it.

IMO I think this character is bottom 3, and easily the worst Mii Fighter. Make suplex an actual kill move, and I think he could go up a bit.

I've seen Suplex cause some weird **** with Mii B. losing two stocks when using it offstage, it seems like it has more problems than just lacking kill power if suiciding with it hurts that much. It didn't have the same affect done high though.

 

[Rizen]

I don't play online at all outside of BA friendlies anymore, the lag is too much. I play in local tournaments, weekly's, offline play with a small group, very rarely LAN and in BA's with people from Discord.

But thanks for the stab.

It was a fair question. If you go around saying everything's free it makes us wonder if they were good players. Good players make a big difference. For example I played vs Ridley and completely walled him as YL; it seemed like a fairly strait MU. Then I played another Ridley who was much better. He was ledge trapping me with Dsmash, was zone breaking with parries and SH N/Fairs, shooting fireballs and rushing after them and a whole bunch of stuff I'd never seen. It made me reevaluate the MU.

Similarly I used to think Ganon's recovery was free, than I played one who dropped real low and it was surprisingly hard to challenge.

I'm not saying you're not playing good people and never did. But in this game I question if anything's free. When you think something's free Light's Fox gets reversed 3-0ed by Ganon.

 

[DelugeFGC]

It was a fair question. If you go around saying everything's free it makes us wonder if they were good players. Good players make a big difference. For example I played vs Ridley and completely walled him as YL; it seemed like a fairly strait MU. Then I played another Ridley who was much better. He was ledge trapping me with Dsmash, was zone breaking with parries and SH N/Fairs, shooting fireballs and rushing after them and a whole bunch of stuff I'd never seen. It made me reevaluate the MU.

Similarly I used to think Ganon's recovery was free, than I played one who dropped real low and it was surprisingly hard to challenge.

I'm not saying you're not playing good people and never did. But in this game I question if anything's free. When you think something's free Light's Fox gets reversed 3-0ed by Ganon.

One MU, I said that, and it was relevant to experience. I did get a little hot-shotty, I apologize for that. I guess I really am a Falcon player.

I get flexed on hard by ROB and Megaman, I have definite problems.

We all have opinions, and mine very well may be worthless because I'm a rock. I guess that reference worked better when I had the Havel avatar..

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

As bad as Charizard's disadvantage state is, or even how just 'OK' his neutral may be, he theoretically never had to play either of those things for more than a couple of seconds if the players stop being stubborn and just switch ASAP if things go south. Squirtle and Ivysaur's neutrals really cover the weaknesses there, and switching is so fast that there's really no reason not to switch if your next follow-up isn't guaranteed or at least a 50-50. As for Zard's disadvantage: it isn't like most characters are going to go from their own disadvantage straight into a true kill combo on Zard faster than he can switch back. Switching even has invincibility (I'll look for the frame data in a bit), and Squirtle is deceptively hard to hit. In a world where PT players could even just panic-switch off of Zard the second they no longer have advantage, I don't see how he really does anything to harm the team as a whole. Granted, I highly doubt players will play anything optimally for quite some time, if ever at all, let alone let go of there potential advantage to play it safe, but we'll see. Theory is just theory.

EDIT: Pokemon Switch is intangible frame 1-25, FAF 40, if I'm reading Kurogane Hammer correctly. So like....if it ain't true, then Zard doesn't actually have to deal with it. Welcome to the future of Pokemon Trainer's meta, if folks get a little smarter.

EDIT 2: Also not trying to be smug, I apologise. This is all conjecture, mixed with opinion. Obviously the option isn't literally perfect.

 

[Heracr055]

...meanwhile the Mega Man players have added a not-so-situational jab lock to their arsenal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Wr3ckogniz3/status/1110540258268143617

Starts with forward tilt at early to no percent, follow up with approaching nair, activate the lock with short hop fast fall (at the apex) dair (x3), then run forward up tilt. Nets about 67-70% and is said to be true

Edit: I guarantee the specialists out there are doing this with their respective characters on the down low, and will astound us when stuff like this gets pulled out at regionals and majors. Look at what Maister did at Full Bloom and how in hindsight we say "but of course G&W up B oos is amazing/the best oos option in the game!" But of course we wouldn't t be talking about it if Maister didn't do his fantastic run at Full Bloom. I wonder who the next one to wow us will be...

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

...meanwhile the Mega Man players have added a not-so-situational jab lock to their arsenal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Wr3ckogniz3/status/1110540258268143617

Starts with forward tilt at early to no percent, follow up with approaching nair, activate the lock with short hop fast fall (at the apex) dair (x3), then run forward up tilt. Nets about 67-70% and is said to be true

Edit: I guarantee the specialists out there are doing this with their respective characters on the down low, and will astound us when stuff like this gets pulled out at regionals and majors. Look at what Maister did at Full Bloom and how in hindsight we say "but of course G&W up B oos is amazing/the best oos option in the game!" But of course we wouldn't t be talking about it if Maister didn't do his fantastic run at Full Bloom. I wonder who the next one to wow us will be...

That spooks me something fierce. I really hope training mode is tricking us again.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Does anyone have a graphic or chart or something for aerials ranked from earliest kill to latest kill? Im interested to see how specific characters do alongside others. Namely UAir atm.

 

[KakuCP9]

There was like 1 person in smash 4 who knew how to play charizard.. Sharpy, there were some other decent ones but they didn't come close to his level. Dunno what he does nowadays. Anyway, its pretty hard to accurately judge charizard when no one can play him. When most people pull him out they immediately regress into useless scrubs. I dont get it.

Also, pretty sure Zards fair and bair outranges clouds. They just Arent as disjointed (although zards bair is probs quite disjointed). To the dude who Said Zards aerials dont have great Range: you are convinced the character sucks i get it, its probably true but duuuude out some effort into your posts instead of just eagerly bashing to the point that you start spreading misinformation. I mean you also said his smashes are bad which isnt true either, usmash is pretty dope. Dsmash is fine.

PS: Zards airspeed isnt bad when you consider he has multiple jumps.

Charizard probably just sucks because he lacks something super cheap and hes huge and has a ****y disadvantage state.

I think its less about lacking cheesy stuff and more that there's a bunch of small things that hold him back. Due to jab hitbox reduction, his jab combo can unsafe on-hit in certain circumstances. Other characters like Wolf and Snake suffer from stuff like this occasionally, but since jab is Zard's moneymaker, it hurts him alot more.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There's also the fact that not only his fair doesn't auto-cancel, it has ridiculously high landing lag like its from Smash 4 making spacing with him very difficult since n-air can't cover the ranges f-air does. There also a bunch of other little things like how his d-tilt has no intangiblity/disjoint compared to his heavyweight brethren AND extends his hurtbox something fierce, the fact that flare blitz doesn't snap to ledge forcing him to rely on his tiny jumps/wack air speed to recover, his u-throw killing power getting butchered by DI thanks to the angle it sends people being too shallow, his u-tilt also missing at point-blank range, his bair while powerful, is unwieldy af and his air accel makes it difficult to weave in the air and space it properly (plus burning a jump to to space one aerial is rather unfavorable) etc.
He has cheese for days with some dirty throw mixups into bair and busted OOS options, but the aforementioned deficiencies make him feel more dysfunctional compared to the other superheavies bar K.Rool. He's better than Squirtle, but still has trouble standing on his own unlike Ivy.

 

[Omnos]

Zard better than Squirtle.??????????
Lolwut?

All Squirtle lacks is any good kill moves, other than that he's an amazing character. Crazy combos, amazing damage output, hard to hit, hard to juggle. There are PTs like Ned who win games at their locals mostly using squirtle. He would be solo viable if they buffed his ability to kill.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Guys I've been having a character crisis recently and I have a question:

Are there any true all-around characters in this game?

right now, we have the Marios and the Pits considered as all-around characters. If they fought simon, snake, villager, etc. they'd have to rush them down. That's their answer to the puzzle presented and that's where they're rewarded the most. Counter-camping is much harder. But, if they fought wolf, pichu, a mirror match, peach etc what would their answer be besides a better executed rushdown?

They can't camp, their projectiles suck at forcing the opponent to come towards them (Mario's fireball has consistent speed, size, and angles. Parrying wouldn't be too hard to do consistently. Pit and Dark Pit can introduce variety with timing and speed, but they're not strong enough on their own when the opponents have numerous defensive and movement-based options to combat the issue).

Like basically, my thinking is the Marios and Pits aren't all-around characters, they specialize in close-range combat, and have a few little tools for an alternative way to combat characters who can rushdown better than them, besides rushing them down harder. If that's the case, can someone introduce me to a character who can successfully keep rushdown characters away, but rushdown characters who zone better than them? Someone with options. Does that make sense?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Are there any true all-around characters in this game?

Wolf, perhaps? Lucina is fairly well-rounded but she doesn't have a projectile, but Wolf does.

 

[Impax]

WFT is kind of the opposite. Projectile based but with deep breathing you can get in close a lot easier.

Wolf makes most sense though

 

[DelugeFGC]

Zard better than Squirtle.??????????
Lolwut?

All Squirtle lacks is any good kill moves, other than that he's an amazing character. Crazy combos, amazing damage output, hard to hit, hard to juggle. There are PTs like Ned who win games at their locals mostly using squirtle. He would be solo viable if they buffed his ability to kill.

Agreed. Squirtle has a few problems, but he's infinitely more valuable as a character than Charizard. Squirtle's only real issue is killing, actually.

My biggest problem with Zard if I had to put it into words is that between Squirtle and Ivy, everything a character realistically would need is already there, Charizard just feels like an incomplete / busted tack on to that. I wish Ivy got nerfed and Zard buffed to bring PT overall more in line.

Charizard is there for emergency recovery situations and cheesy early kills. That shouldn't be his place in PT, he should be the stock finisher and/or the survivor abusing rage. Take away some of Ivy's kill power and make Squirtle's recovery a little less good, then give Zard a few correct buffs.. all of a sudden he's an actual member of the PT team.

I think those who do best with PT will be those who make use of the entire kit in their meta development / growth, not those who stick to one character endlessly for whatever reason.

Completely disregarding his value / prowess as a solo fighter, his role in the PT team / meta is greatly lacking and that's my biggest issue. If he were his own character, I'd be less bothered by this. Perhaps the buffs could focus on upping his edge guard ability as well, I feel Zard should have a much bigger role here than Ivy or Squirtle because he's.. a flying dragon.

 

[Rizen]

Zard better than Squirtle.??????????
Lolwut?

All Squirtle lacks is any good kill moves, other than that he's an amazing character. Crazy combos, amazing damage output, hard to hit, hard to juggle. There are PTs like Ned who win games at their locals mostly using squirtle. He would be solo viable if they buffed his ability to kill.

The thing about Squirtle is he's great at low %s but not so much as damage builds up. He's also the 3rd lightest character with G&W.

Like basically, my thinking is the Marios and Pits aren't all-around characters, they specialize in close-range combat, and have a few little tools for an alternative way to combat characters who can rushdown better than them, besides rushing them down harder. If that's the case, can someone introduce me to a character who can successfully keep rushdown characters away, but rushdown characters who zone better than them? Someone with options. Does that make sense?

's great at zoning and has good combos up close. He's fairly well rounded and fits your discription but there are better characters like Olimar, Inkling and Wolf.

 

[Omnos]

The thing about Squirtle is he's great at low %s but not so much as damage builds up. He's also the 3rd lightest character with G&W.


's great at zoning and has good combos up close. He's fairly well rounded and fits your discription but there are better characters like Olimar, Inkling and Wolf.

Absolutely. At higher percents squirtle's moves don't connect with each other as well or at all, and doesn't have the kill options to be worth using normally. His recovery is also underwhelming which makes his featherweight status even worse. That's the the great thing about being able to switch to Ivysaur though lol, crazy kill moves with u/d air and vine whip. Plus an annoying projectile, kill throws at high percent and dthrow to up B.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Absolutely. At higher percents squirtle's moves don't connect with each other as well or at all, and doesn't have the kill options to be worth using normally. His recovery is also underwhelming which makes his featherweight status even worse. That's the the great thing about being able to switch to Ivysaur though lol, crazy kill moves with u/d air and vine whip. Plus an annoying projectile, kill throws at high percent and dthrow to up B.

Yeah that's the problem though, between Squirt and Ivy there's little need for Zard to even be there.


Young Link is better than Adult Link imo, the good YL's I see the more my jaw drops regarding that character. Olimar is awesome, but he also has a hell of a learning curve.

Wario is pretty great too but his focus is elsewhere, but Waft is a nuke and you can basically get it off for free with confirms. Everyone I've recommended Wario and YL too has loved them. If you take damage as Wario, well that's a waft. If not, well you have the rest of your kit. He's a bit disgusting honestly. Inkling also has some baller zoning tools but has fire combo and follow up game to go with them, though Inkling is definitely more mechanically demanding on the player than other zoners imo.

 

[meleebrawler]

Agreed. Squirtle has a few problems, but he's infinitely more valuable as a solo character than Charizard. Squirtle's only real issue is killing, actually.

My biggest problem with Zard if I had to put it into words is that between Squirtle and Ivy, everything a character realistically would need is already there, Charizard just feels like an incomplete / busted tack on to that. I wish Ivy got nerfed and Zard buffed to bring PT overall more in line.

Charizard is there for emergency recovery situations and cheesy early kills. That shouldn't be his place in PT, he should be the stock finisher and/or the survivor abusing rage. Take away some of Ivy's kill power and make Squirtle's recovery a little less good, then give Zard a few correct buffs.. all of a sudden he's an actual member of the PT team.

I think those who do best with PT will be those who make use of the entire kit in their meta development / growth, not those who stick to one character endlessly for whatever reason.

Completely disregarding his value / prowess as a solo fighter, his role in the PT team / meta is greatly lacking and that's my biggest issue. If he were his own character, I'd be less bothered by this. Perhaps the buffs could focus on upping his edge guard ability as well, I feel Zard should have a much bigger role here than Ivy or Squirtle because he's.. a flying dragon.

I've been taking these posts seriously but this one comes real close to making me think you're just butthurt about Zard not being the MVP of the group, basically asking devs to gut the other members just to make Zard look good. Squirtle's recovery is barely passable as it is and I don't think you fully grasp how completely awful Brawl Ivysaur was even before getting into the ill-conceived mechanics thrust upon trainer there. Even today Ivy's zoning is rudimentary compared to others. And it would royally suck if Charizard was the only member of the group competent at killing.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I've been taking these posts seriously but this one comes real close to making me think you're just butthurt about Zard not being the MVP of the group, basically asking devs to gut the other members just to make Zard look good. Squirtle's recovery is barely passable as it is and I don't think you fully grasp how completely awful Brawl Ivysaur was even before getting into the ill-conceived mechanics thrust upon trainer there. Even today Ivy's zoning is rudimentary compared to others. And it would royally suck if Charizard was the only member of the group competent at killing.

I didn't make a single comment on Ivy's zoning, I wasn't taking about Brawl Ivy and Squirtle's recovery is still better than Ivy's in most situations when further out from the stage due to how Ivy's functions as a tether.

I didn't play Brawl, I played PM and even then that was BARELY and it wasn't a Pokemon I used. Charizard is the most lacking member of PT, more-so than he should be. I don't even know what half you brought up has to do with what I said. I don't want Charizard to be the MVP, I want him to be functional in comparison to the other two. I don't even play PT nor am I a Pokemon fan. But I'm butthurt, alright, got it.

I really don't think it matters what Brawl PT was like, PM or Sm4sh Zard or any of that. We aren't talking about those games, nor playing them. Charizard is near functionally useless in the overall meta of PT, he's the worst tool you have of the 3 by far. I've brought up why I think this is, and I've been met with personal attacks more than once now. I'm the butthurt one? That I really don't get, I'll say that much, and I'm also not sure why I keep coming up in a discussion about Charizard.

If you think I'm a blithering idiot, fine, I may very well be. But can some of you please stop making stabs at me? That's not civil, it's not intelligent and it contributes to nothing. I'm not doing it to you.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Welp I didn't expect people to start actually repeating me when I said I thought Zard would be better solo, do keep in mind that I am just a wi-fi warrior who thinks he's the bee's knees and wanted to make a super spicy hot take about his main.

Just to clarify my point earlier: I think Squirtle is still more valuable to the team then Charizard. He's an amazing character at low to mid percents, he just lacks a proper kit to be reliable at high percents.

I just think if he was solo, his kill power (which is even worse then Sheik's) and weight would hold him back enough to be be worse then Charizard, but thankfully he doesn't have to deal with that. As a part of the PT team, Charizard is definitely the least consistent, as much as it pains me to admit it.

Edit: The main point of my original post anyway was that I thought it was kind of silly to rank each Pokemon individually anyway, and that we're all kind of baised due to how well they function in the team, which is a point I stand by. They only way to really tell for sure how well each Pokemon is individually is to play them without ever swapping...and I don't think I've ever seen a player who never swaps from their main of the 3 since launch, because they aren't designed to be fully functional on their own.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Moving on from the glorious cheese dragon, Wario is a little ******* who will steal your soul and eat it. You put in all this work on him and he just invalidates it by slinking out of disadvantage once and getting you into one of his waft confirms, then runs around the stage laughing at 130 as you tumble off into the skybox in the background.

That said, I think he's fantastic. That dash attack makes me so happy, Wario Land 2 and 3 were a big part of me growing up with the GBC.


Also as a solo character Squirtle would be one of the worst characters in the game, he has no way to kill and no way to do anything consistent after like 60-80%. My comments on him and Ivy were more surrounded around the function of them as a team on PT, not as individual characters. As individual characters the only one that could stand on their own is Ivy and even then with that recovery and with some of Ivy's worse MU's.. that's still debatable.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Cosmos just posted his match-up chart for Inkling a few days ago:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/CosmosZR/status/1111012983512203266

Definitely looks like the spread of a top tier character; based on the chart, Inkling seems to do a better job against swordies than most other characters. Also a bit surprising to see R.O.B. of all characters that Cosmos thinks gives Inkling a slightly hard time.

Then again, I don't play Inkling, so I don't really know enough about the character to confirm if this spread is accurate or not.

 

[DelugeFGC]

As a Falcon player, I'd agree with the placement. Falcon's not at a huge disadvantage, but he's going to really have to put in some work to carry him through. Cloud can struggle as well for a variety of reasons, Inkling is one of the few characters that can consistently **** Cloud up offstage (even if Cloud is the one doing the edge guarding) with his nation sized hitboxes, I think Young Link is really close to even but, again it could still be in Inkling's favor. Inkling feels like one of Wario's worst MU's, but he doesn't have many imo so that's definitely the sign of a top tier. I can't comment on many other characters.

 

[DJ3DS]

Cosmos just posted his match-up chart for Inkling a few days ago:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/CosmosZR/status/1111012983512203266

Definitely looks like the spread of a top tier character; based on the chart, Inkling seems to do a better job against swordies than most other characters. Also a bit surprising to see R.O.B. of all characters that Cosmos thinks gives Inkling a slightly hard time.

Then again, I don't play Inkling, so I don't really know enough about the character to confirm if this spread is accurate or not.

ROB forces Inkling to approach, can box well when Inkling does, and has gyro to stuff roller approaches. His size and floatiness makes up throw up air difficult to confirm at kill percents, and he has the freedom in recovery to avoid Inklings edgeguards whilst being extremely good at edgeguarding in return - you can walk off side b and it will catch inkling up b to ledge very well.

Of course, Inkling can do a ton of damage to ROB when they get in, but that's not really special for Inkling.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cosmos just posted his match-up chart for Inkling a few days ago:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/CosmosZR/status/1111012983512203266

Definitely looks like the spread of a top tier character; based on the chart, Inkling seems to do a better job against swordies than most other characters. Also a bit surprising to see R.O.B. of all characters that Cosmos thinks gives Inkling a slightly hard time.

Then again, I don't play Inkling, so I don't really know enough about the character to confirm if this spread is accurate or not.

Something interesting there, and a few other people pointed out, is that he considers solo Squirtle even, but PkMn Trainer as a whole as a +1 matchup. Part of me feels like he put her there as the average of all her Pokemon's matchups (Squirtle is even, Ivysaur is +1, and Charizard is +2). However, as PkMn Trainer, you can simply just stick to Squirtle the whole time (unless you die, although it is not that difficult to cycle back to Squirtle), and use the other Pokemon's advantages if neccessary.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

For the sake of the argument, and because I have nothing better to do here sorry guys, do you think Charizard has a significantly better matchup than both Ivy and Squirt?

 

[DelugeFGC]

For the sake of the argument, and because I have nothing better to do here sorry guys, do you think Charizard has a significantly better matchup than both Ivy and Squirt?

Solo? Squirtle is pretty much toast in most MU's due to his complete inability to kill on his own 99% of the time, so I'd say Zard would do better than him nearly across the board. Ivy has a lot of good MU spread, but the few bad MU's Ivy has are REALLY hard on the character, but it's better than what Zard has.

 

[Rizen]

I can see YL losing slightly to Inkling, although I haven't played a good inkling myself. Inkling outclasses YL. He's speedier and basically has a sword with all his disjointed weapon attacks. The character's a little crazy. IMO he's top tier.

IMO ranking PT's pokemon solo is like ranking Shulk's Arts individually. Ivy has an abysmal recovery but so what? You can swap to charizard. It's like saying Shulk's smash art is bad because it can't deal damage- that's why he has buster. A successful PT knows how and when to use each pokemons' strengths. Frankly none of the pokemeon would fair well solo and they weren't designed that way. Ivy seems best until you get her offstage and find she has Belmont's recovery without the uppercut for when you're under the ledge.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I can see YL losing slightly to Inkling, although I haven't played a good inkling myself. Inkling outclasses YL. He's speedier and basically has a sword with all his disjointed weapon attacks. The character's a little crazy. IMO he's top tier.

IMO ranking PT's pokemon solo is like ranking Shulk's Arts individually. Ivy has an abysmal recovery but so what? You can swap to charizard. It's like saying Shulk's smash art is bad because it can't deal damage- that's why he has buster. A successful PT knows how and when to use each pokemons' strengths. Frankly none of the pokemeon would fair well solo and they weren't designed that way. Ivy seems best until you get her offstage and find she has Belmont's recovery without the uppercut for when you're under the ledge.

The only problem is that Zard doesn't mesh as well with PT as Squirtle and Ivy do. I just wish he had more of a role. The character you briefly switch to in order to recover or net an early kill isn't the ideal place for him in the trio imo. I just wish he had more value to the team, somebody obviously has to be the worst just like someone has to be the best, but he's disproportionately less useful than Ivy and Squirtle.

I think if Flare Blitz were fixed, he was given a pinch more aerial mobility and maybe he had less landing lag on FAir and more range on moves like NAir and DAir he'd be in a really good place, I also think Ivy packs too much kill power for the role she's supposed to play.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Something interesting there, and a few other people pointed out, is that he considers solo Squirtle even, but PkMn Trainer as a whole as a +1 matchup. Part of me feels like he put her there as the average of all her Pokemon's matchups (Squirtle is even, Ivysaur is +1, and Charizard is +2). However, as PkMn Trainer, you can simply just stick to Squirtle the whole time (unless you die, although it is not that difficult to cycle back to Squirtle), and use the other Pokemon's advantages if neccessary.

At this point, I think a lot of people who do things like that in PT match ups aren't looking at "does this pokemon's kit win dolo", but rather "can this pokemon do its job in the match up".

At low to mid percents Squirtle is a little outclassed by Inkling in terms of mobility and range (not by a ton), but still has the frame data to compete. But inevitably Squirt is going to have to switch at some point, either to kill or to hold off death, and Inkling can exploit that.

For the sake of the argument, and because I have nothing better to do here sorry guys, do you think Charizard has a significantly better matchup than both Ivy and Squirt?

In terms of how much they carry a match up for PT as a whole, not really. Maybe Little Mac because of flamethrower cheese. Squirtle and Ivysaur carry in most match ups.

You don't play Superheavies because of their amazing match up spreads, though. Their strength comes largely in their clutch factor, which is also what makes them so inconsistent.

 

[NotLiquid]

Cosmos just posted his match-up chart for Inkling a few days ago:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/CosmosZR/status/1111012983512203266

Definitely looks like the spread of a top tier character; based on the chart, Inkling seems to do a better job against swordies than most other characters. Also a bit surprising to see R.O.B. of all characters that Cosmos thinks gives Inkling a slightly hard time.

Then again, I don't play Inkling, so I don't really know enough about the character to confirm if this spread is accurate or not.

Funny, I feel like with both this chart and Tweek's performance with Wario I get the sense that both these character's presumed "weakness" when it comes to swordies feel like they're much more of a non-issue than one would think - especially Inkling considering people don't realize quite how nuts her BAir is. She already has some of the best mobility and frame data in the game, and with a generous disjoint like that move, her spacing is actually underrated as hell.

Something interesting there, and a few other people pointed out, is that he considers solo Squirtle even, but PkMn Trainer as a whole as a +1 matchup. Part of me feels like he put her there as the average of all her Pokemon's matchups (Squirtle is even, Ivysaur is +1, and Charizard is +2). However, as PkMn Trainer, you can simply just stick to Squirtle the whole time (unless you die, although it is not that difficult to cycle back to Squirtle), and use the other Pokemon's advantages if neccessary.

Squirtle is absolutely obnoxious to go up against. His small frame and air mobility makes it extremely tough for him to get juked out of any of Inkling's moves, and it's sort of exasperated by the fact that Inkling does not have a very good NAir. It's her fastest move that she can throw out as an anti-air, but its hitboxes only cover her legs, meaning Squirtle is effective at exposing some real blind spots. Squirtle wrecks Inkling in the air.

What makes the matchup at least somewhat tolerable is that Inkling can combat him fairly easily on the ground. Roller is pretty good against him, and DTilt is a bit of a saving grace for Inkling. It stuffs out a lot of moves Squirtle has and makes for a good multi-hit poke.

Still, in terms of broad strokes I do think Pokémon Trainer doesn't really benefit from sticking exclusively to Squirtle in the matchup, given that having a leg-up in neutral can build diminishing returns once either character reaches higher percents.

 

[Rizen]

Charizard and Squirtle are 2 sides of a coin. Squirt is great at low %s but can't kill and dies early. Charizard is their to kill and survive to high %s. Char is one of the better stock tankers with good weight and a great recovery. IMO tanking with him is underutilized. They're both equally important to the team. Ivy's more rounded and better at filling various roles.

- especially Inkling considering people don't realize quite how nuts her BAir is. She already has some of the best mobility and frame data in the game, and with a generous disjoint like that move, her spacing is actually underrated as hell.





Still, in terms of broad strokes I do think Pokémon Trainer doesn't really benefit from sticking exclusively to Squirtle in the matchup, given that having a leg-up in neutral can build diminishing returns once either character reaches higher percents.

To both these things, yes!

 

[SwagGuy99]

Zard better than Squirtle.??????????
Lolwut?

All Squirtle lacks is any good kill moves, other than that he's an amazing character. Crazy combos, amazing damage output, hard to hit, hard to juggle. There are PTs like Ned who win games at their locals mostly using squirtle. He would be solo viable if they buffed his ability to kill.

Squirtle is Smash 4 Sheik but with less speed which holds him back from being that good. He may just be barely solo viable (imo) although playing him with Ivysaur and Charizard kind of removes those weaknesses. Ivysaur can kill better and Charizard is faster on the ground.