Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[N8than]

What do all of you think about right now? I feel like he is top 10 and has some pretty good matchups against other top tiers, but to characters like,,,, and ESPECIALLY

 

[Diddy Kong]

Same.

To quote Mockrock: "He's fast, got strong boxing tools, a kill throw that launches off of platforms & his flame thrower alone wins you games in some important match ups."

& that was just Sm4sh.

He's even more mobile in this game!

Exactly! Charizard is in many ways improved since Smash 4. Only downside is no super armor Rock Smash. Then again I feel his better recovery, OoS options, more damage with Flamethrower, actual approaches and let's no forget the best part; his overall role in Pokemon Trainer as a complete "character". His strenghts suits his weaknesses. Same with Squirtle. Though Squirtle is the exact opposite and is more or less a more functional Sheik.

Also when is the Spring Patch going to happen? Still got more replays I should film before it's gone forever.

I'm also kind of disheartend that with all the recent love shown to underrated characters, Diddy still hasn't made an impression here, and with the overall competitive scene. I also haven't played for a few days, probably should get back at that soon. I am actually more inspired than ever to enter the competitive scene in my country (the Netherlands) because how I feel about my main character. I'm pretty positive I'll be among the best Diddy's soon there. However I'm quite depressed about his current stand in the competitive community.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What do all of you think about right now? I feel like he is top 10 and has some pretty good matchups against other top tiers, but to characters like,,,, and ESPECIALLY

Snake is pretty good right now. One of the poster boys of Ultimate's upper tiered metagame, alongside Palutena and Pichu, due to how popular he is. I think he is either at the lower end of top 10, or close to top 10, because he does have a some issues with those who best deals with his projectile game and can put him in disadvantage stronger than he can to you.

He has shown some pretty good results to his credit, and Salem has been recently added to the list of top Snake mains. Mr. R uses a lot of Snake too, despite also focusing on Chrom, Roy, and YLink as well.

 

[Rizen]

is a top tier but one of the most polarizing. You either have a good answer to him or you don't. Because half his game uses explosives, he gets shutdown hard by absorber type moves. Fortunately his boxing game is really good so he still does okay.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Squirtle is Smash 4 Sheik but with less speed which holds him back from being that good. He may just be barely solo viable (imo) although playing him with Ivysaur and Charizard kind of removes those weaknesses. Ivysaur can kill better and Charizard is faster on the ground.

That's a massive understatement to how amazing and/ or dominant Sheik was in Smash 4. Squirtle doesn't even come close in my eye. Sheik had an amazing everything in 4, minus perhaps kill power, but even then she had solid methods of netting kills.

Squirtle is just a generic rushdown character that honestly doesn't really excell on his own at all.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Guys I've been having a character crisis recently and I have a question:

Are there any true all-around characters in this game?

right now, we have the Marios and the Pits considered as all-around characters. If they fought simon, snake, villager, etc. they'd have to rush them down. That's their answer to the puzzle presented and that's where they're rewarded the most. Counter-camping is much harder. But, if they fought wolf, pichu, a mirror match, peach etc what would their answer be besides a better executed rushdown?

They can't camp, their projectiles suck at forcing the opponent to come towards them (Mario's fireball has consistent speed, size, and angles. Parrying wouldn't be too hard to do consistently. Pit and Dark Pit can introduce variety with timing and speed, but they're not strong enough on their own when the opponents have numerous defensive and movement-based options to combat the issue).

Like basically, my thinking is the Marios and Pits aren't all-around characters, they specialize in close-range combat, and have a few little tools for an alternative way to combat characters who can rushdown better than them, besides rushing them down harder. If that's the case, can someone introduce me to a character who can successfully keep rushdown characters away, but rushdown characters who zone better than them? Someone with options. Does that make sense?

If you like the rush down thing, but prefer safe stage control while keeping good mobility, combos and air game like your mains, Diddy comes pretty close. Otherwise, probably Pikachu. Neither of these characters are easy to learn however. But I think that your playstyle and experience measures most with them. If you prefer the disjoint advantages that Pit offers, try Young Link.

If you want all to have a simple character who has way obvious strenghts and weaknesses and is therefore "all round" try Donkey Kong. He's pretty easy to pick up. But only true pro's can master his true strenghts, which is to perfect your advantage state as well as disadvantage state.

Anyway whatever you do, keep Mario and Pit as secondaries because you have the most experience with them. Any other character you pick, you are gonna relate to your current experience with those characters.

 

[Krysco]

I’ve played this character a decent bit, and I honestly think shotput and the command grab are his only saving graces. Without those moves, his neutral gameplan is almost nonexistent. But since the suplex doesn’t kill, whether you use it or not makes you decide whether to sacrifice a good neutral tool, or sacrifice a decent kill move. Range is pathetic, all the recovery moves are pretty mediocre. Gimping this character feels super easy unless he uses the drop kick up B (cannot remember the name and can’t be bothered to go look, sorry), which can cause some to fear going offstage to challenge it.

IMO I think this character is bottom 3, and easily the worst Mii Fighter. Make suplex an actual kill move, and I think he could go up a bit.

Soaring Axe Kick I believe is the one you're talking about. The one that acts like Climhazzard where you can choose to do the downward strike if you want. From what I've tested, that's really its only use out of the 3. Thrust Uppercut is the best OoS option of the 3, coming out on frame 3 though it doesn't kill. It goes equal distance both vertically and horizontally compared to Soaring Axe Kick. SAK gets to its peak faster and you can't angle it like you can with TU (the latter being angleable much like Super Jump Punch or Blazer). Helicopter Kick is the best one for onstage kills and some sacrificial offstage ones too if you use it for edgeguarding. The legs are also invulnerable during the hitbox (frames 8-37) so it's not 100% free to challenge.

Weak nair can lead to tech chases at high percents which can lead into Onslaught among other things or Onslaught can just be used to punish a commitment or landing from afar. It's punishable on block or if whiffed but all 3 side specials are like that (aside from the obvious Suplex beating shield). I haven't tested Burning Dropkick too much but from what I've read in the Mii Brawler threads, it's not as punishable on block since Brawler bounces back a bit and it still kills, just later than Onslaught does and it's the best one for further helping recovery since it doesn't put Brawler in helpless. I like the 1122 set for the kill power since Brawler desperately needs it but if he's truly super easy to gimp and it becomes too much of a problem, I can imagine 1232 or 1212 (Shotput, Burning Dropkick, Thrust Uppercut or Soaring Axe Kick, Feint Jump) being the better option. I don't mind the weaker recovery for better kill power but then I'm also used to it since I main Chrom.

Forgot to specifically mention Suplex till now but I don't find it too helpful since the range on it is so short and it's still rather punishable along with it not killing. It does 22.6% fresh which is a lot of damage for a grab but opponents don't need to fear it at high percents since it can't kill. So on the ground, it serves near equal use to a standard grab with its main benefit being able to grab in the air.

If I ever get around to going to tournaments, I'll likely try Brawler out and see for myself how good or bad he is but I've got at least some optimism for him so long as rulesets don't restrict his specials.

 

[NotLiquid]

What do all of you think about right now? I feel like he is top 10 and has some pretty good matchups against other top tiers, but to characters like,,,, and ESPECIALLY

Against the PSI boys I think it's a decent matchup but I don't think it's entirely a winning one. They force Snake to rely on CQC as opposed to his standard gameplan of explosion shenanigans when in neutral, and that's an area where they both are fairly strong at. Despite being good Nikita fodder when off-stage, it goes both ways with their tools. Against Inklings, it's not a rosy MU. Setting aside the mobility advantage, Inkling can afford trading hits with Snake's combo breakers relatively often due to being a midweight and because they don't exactly require long combo strings to build a lot of damage. Their up-close pressure is overall better, they can counterplay zoning pressure with splat bombs, and there's almost never a situation where they can be reliably edge guarded. Plus, Snake has virtually no defensive options when off-stage, which is where Inkling can get over her occasional killing struggles, particularly against a heavy body like Snake.

He's very good though, most likely near the upper middle of a hypothetical A-tier. Just being able to reset into neutral is always going to be a boon in any matchup, and he has more than enough burst options to allow him room to make reads in critical situations. If there's something to be said about him it's that getting good at Snake is definitely one of the better testaments to player skill due to how many moving parts there are to account for in his moveset.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don't know if I'd put Snake outright in top tier, he's got a hell of a lot going on but his less fortunate aspects can be really polarizing at times in some MU's. He bodies most of the roster but in high and top tier there's a few characters that can really shut down a lot of his options and give him a hard time. I don't find the MU to be too brutal with Falcon outside of grenades often ruining my combos before they pop off and my burst output gets too high, but when Falcon loses neutral to Snake I actually don't find Snake's advantage to be as difficult to work around as some of the other high/top tiers so comebacks are still definitely possible.

In the MU against Wario I don't think Snake fares great, Wario can munch on Snake's projectiles, Wario lives just as long as Snake and Wario benefits out of living long because it means he's gonna build up waft multiple times. Snake's big-bodied enough to easily get sucked up into UTilt > UAir strings or UTilt > Waft confirms, and he also gets locked up into a lot of Wario's DTilt options pretty easily when his approach is punished. Overall Snake eats combos from Wario pretty bad, but the grenades obviously help this to a point. I think Snake loses the Wario matchup, but not super hard. Call it -1.

Cloud I generally don't have a bad time with Snake on, I find it to be in Cloud's favor actually. Cloud has an amazing neutral and isn't locked up in needing long strings or anything to build damage, so he can space Snake out using his speed, hitboxes the size of Mexico and quick neutral thinking. Once Cloud builds Snake up to a higher percent (which isn't hard when Cloud hits pretty hard) Cloud then has multiple options. Cloud can struggle at times against Snake, but Cloud's neutral game in general tends to overtake Snake's at some point in the match in my experience thus far, but I've played two Snakes in an actual tournament setting so my MU knowledge here ain't that great. That said, a lot of the irritations for other characters (namely grenades and an oppressive neutral) don't affect Cloud as strongly.

Young Link I'd probably put even with Snake, they both have some pretty astounding pressure and YL is a speedy piss ant. Ganon gets wiped by Snake. Wolf is either even or in Wolf's favor due to a few variables.. overall though, Snake's general MU spread looks pretty good. It's just that when you knock Snake down, man he falls hard. His worst MU's can be really polarizing.

Any character that shuts down projectile play (like Palu, Ness / Lucas, Etc) is also a pretty big problem for Snake's neutral because it effectively cuts his options in half, but he has good CQC options and pretty decent aerials so this could hurt a lot worse than it does. ROB seems to be able to shut down old Solid too in the right hands.

 

[Krysco]

Also a bit late to the PT talk but I think there's times where talking about the Pokemon as if they're alone is worth mentioning and other times where it isn't. MU charts will often list the 3 Pokemon separately and some will even list PT as well which visualizes how difficult each individual Pokemon is and the character as a whole too. This is a perfect time to mention the Pokemon as if they're solo. Like if you're Zard due to being at high percent and wanting to stock tank then you're stuck with Zard's tools until you choose to switch or lose a stock. How well those tools work at that time in the mu is pretty significant. On the other hand, speaking in hypotheticals like 'if they were 3 separate fighters, this one would be better than this one' is rather pointless since that hypothetical will never happen in Ultimate and all 3 of them always have the option of switching.

It'd be a lot of work but I think it'd be neat if any noteworthy PT mains made 4 separate MU charts. One for each individual Pokemon and one for the character as a whole. Would be a great visual for how drastic the changes are. For example, if Ivy is +2 in an mu but then Zard is a -1 in that same mu. And then of course a general PT one to see how all the available tools stack up against the cast.

 

[Hippieslayer]

snake is just gonna get worse as ppl perfect their punishes and juggles, not top 10 material in the long run at least

 

[bc1910]

Guys I've been having a character crisis recently and I have a question:

Are there any true all-around characters in this game?

right now, we have the Marios and the Pits considered as all-around characters. If they fought simon, snake, villager, etc. they'd have to rush them down. That's their answer to the puzzle presented and that's where they're rewarded the most. Counter-camping is much harder. But, if they fought wolf, pichu, a mirror match, peach etc what would their answer be besides a better executed rushdown?

They can't camp, their projectiles suck at forcing the opponent to come towards them (Mario's fireball has consistent speed, size, and angles. Parrying wouldn't be too hard to do consistently. Pit and Dark Pit can introduce variety with timing and speed, but they're not strong enough on their own when the opponents have numerous defensive and movement-based options to combat the issue).

Like basically, my thinking is the Marios and Pits aren't all-around characters, they specialize in close-range combat, and have a few little tools for an alternative way to combat characters who can rushdown better than them, besides rushing them down harder. If that's the case, can someone introduce me to a character who can successfully keep rushdown characters away, but rushdown characters who zone better than them? Someone with options. Does that make sense?

A lot of the true all rounders are top or high tiers this time around. Yoshi, Greninja, Inkling and Wolf all come to mind. All of them have good mobility, the ability to camp, the ability to rush down, good (or at least decent) recoveries etc. You could probably make an argument for Pikachu as well although he focuses more on his combos.

What do all of you think about right now? I feel like he is top 10 and has some pretty good matchups against other top tiers, but to characters like,,,, and ESPECIALLY

Snake is in a weird position where he generally does well against the top tiers but has quite a few losing MUs as you go down the cast. This is generally due to high tiers and below having more gimmicky/niche tools like projectile absorbs, which the top tiers forgo for tools that are better overall but perhaps not for fighting Snake. Predictably, any character who can limit or prevent Snake's grenade usage will do well against him.

Of the top tiers, Snake beats Greninja, Pichu and probably some of the swordies. Pikachu could be even, but considering that ESAM always switches to Samus against MVD now I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Snake wins it. Snake goes even with most of the other top tiers and loses only to Olimar and Palutena, although I've seen murmurings in the Snake discord of Palutena being an even MU. I personally don't believe Snake loses to Fox given how well MVD does against Light; Snake can still use grenades against Fox pretty freely despite reflector and is heavy enough to withstand quite a beating from Fox whilst being able to finish him off very early with Utilt or even Ftilt. Cosmos did very well against MVD at Full Bloom 5 and the MU is probably underdeveloped, but just thinking about how their tools interact I'd put Inkling as even too.

Outside of top tier, Snake is generally thought to have difficult or losing MUs against Pokemon Trainer (Ivysaur, Squirtle has his uses as well), G&W, Mega Man and the Earthbound kids. Young Link and Samus are often thought to be difficult as well. These characters can all contest or outright nullify Snake's grenade zoning and abuse his disadvantage state effectively. Mii Gunner also bodies Snake in my experience, with or without Ness's down B, as long as you are using the grenade and missile customs.

Overall I'd say Snake is solidly (har har) high tier, but has too many bad MUs to be top tier. It's not difficult to pocket one of the above characters for Snake, and many of them are solid characters that make good mains or secondaries anyway.

 

[Adamonado]

Squirtle is just a generic rushdown character that honestly doesn't really excell on his own at all.

I feel like Squirtle is one of the most underrated characters in this game. He is a small character with incredible combo potential and near lagless moves. While not that fast, his burst movement allows him to get into his opponents easily and deal a ton of damage. He struggles a bit with killing, but he does have a good and safe down smash plus a very strong f smash and up smash for hard reads or unsafe landing punishments, plus he has a kill throw. Of course, if you can't land these kill options, that is when switching to Ivysaur is rewarding. He has a lot of lingering hitboxes making him a character that is rewarded for constantly throwing out moves. Watergun is a silly move that can potentially gimp opponents or put yourself in a good position for Ivysaur dair or some other edgeguard, or you could just use it to mess with opponents in neutral and gain stage control. Withdraw is a great move to pressure opponents who like to stay on the ground, and it is really hard to punish unless it's parried. Overall, I feel like Squirtle is more similar to a toned-down and fair version of Pichu than Smash 4 Sheik, and I'd say that he lands in a low-to-mid high tier position. From what I've heard, Ned has a similar opinion.

 

[blackghost]

snake is just gonna get worse as ppl perfect their punishes and juggles, not top 10 material in the long run at least

i agree with this. like snake exploits lack of player knowledge more so the character MU. only other character that does that to snake's level is bayonetta.

With MVd's snake he has been exploiting smash 4 players that didnt know what snake did. but against brawl vets he has had it rough from the games i've watched. havent seens Salem's snake but salem is, in general, a better player than mvd imo so i probably need to.

 

[Sean²]

Guys I've been having a character crisis recently and I have a question:

Are there any true all-around characters in this game?

right now, we have the Marios and the Pits considered as all-around characters. If they fought simon, snake, villager, etc. they'd have to rush them down. That's their answer to the puzzle presented and that's where they're rewarded the most. Counter-camping is much harder. But, if they fought wolf, pichu, a mirror match, peach etc what would their answer be besides a better executed rushdown?

They can't camp, their projectiles suck at forcing the opponent to come towards them (Mario's fireball has consistent speed, size, and angles. Parrying wouldn't be too hard to do consistently. Pit and Dark Pit can introduce variety with timing and speed, but they're not strong enough on their own when the opponents have numerous defensive and movement-based options to combat the issue).

Like basically, my thinking is the Marios and Pits aren't all-around characters, they specialize in close-range combat, and have a few little tools for an alternative way to combat characters who can rushdown better than them, besides rushing them down harder. If that's the case, can someone introduce me to a character who can successfully keep rushdown characters away, but rushdown characters who zone better than them? Someone with options. Does that make sense?

I mean I feel like all signs here are pointing to Wolf, but thats up to you if you want to bear the burden of being "just another Wolf player" with the rest of us. You could probably make a case for trying Young Link, ROB, Palutena, or even those filthy electric rats. Maybe Lucina but she doesn't have a projectile. I don't play those characters, so I can't give a fantastic review on how they go against certain archetypes, but I do play Richter as well, and can tell you that some of these characters cause me a lot more frustration than others.

 

[Planty]

On the topic of , most players find it to be a winning matchup for her. Gravitational Pull takes his grenades away, equips it so that she can throw it, AND resets the timer (!). Just in that move alone, she nullifies a lot of his projectile game and forces more boxing, where she can deal some damage. Her juggles against Snake are excellent when she is in advantage and she can edgeguard him well. Still though, Snake is quite heavy and very strong, so Rosalina always has to be careful. She doesn't destroy him, but she definitely wins.

Also I've been hearing that has no losing matchups. How true is this?

 

[SwagGuy99]

Guys I've been having a character crisis recently and I have a question:

Are there any true all-around characters in this game?

right now, we have the Marios and the Pits considered as all-around characters.

Outside of them there are a few characters who I'd consider to be all-around characters.

• all fit (but you already mentioned those)
• If you want to put in a lot of effort to learn them then would fit pretty well.
• still seems to fit this archetype. There's not much he can't do, and while his recovery is bad, it's not or levels of bad.
• doesn't seem to have any huge weaknesses in his kit and he is very adaptable. is kind of similar, but I'd say is the better example.

 

[N8than]

Speaking of vs , what are currently some of the worst matchups in the game? An example that I've heard on twitter is vs /.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Speaking of vs , what are currently some of the worst matchups in the game? An example that I've heard on twitter is vs /.

vs. /

These MU's push K. Rool over the edge while wearing cement shoes.
They both domain the neutral with speed or on-slot of projectiles that force K. Rool off-stage into either a loop of spring gimps or easy Hard Knuckle edge-guards.

Even if K. Rool can make it back to ledge, he still struggles since his ledge-options are so slow & limited.

 

[Sean²]

Also I've been hearing that has no losing matchups. How true is this?

There’s potential in that statement, but players aren’t exactly flocking to pick up Olimar in droves either. There’s still quite a bit of matchup inexperience with this character imo. He’s just a hard character to get good matchup experience against.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There’s potential in that statement, but players aren’t exactly flocking to pick up Olimar in droves either. There’s still quite a bit of matchup inexperience with this character imo. He’s just a hard character to get good matchup experience against.

I am not sure if there exactly losing. But and maybe can appear to give give Olimar some trouble looking at tournament footage so far.

Both Lucina and Wolf have simple and effective ways of fending off thrown Pikmin. Lucina with her disjointed and powerful airiels. Wolf with his blaster

 

[Sean²]

I am not sure if there exactly losing. But and maybe can appear to give give Olimar some trouble looking at tournament footage so far.

Both Lucina and Wolf have simple and effective ways of fending off thrown Pikmin. Lucina with her disjointed and powerful airiels. Wolf with his blaster

Considering how crazy the Shuton vs Myran set was at Frostbite, I can see how the Belmonts could take this matchup since they're one of the few that can outrange Olimar. But Belmonts are Belmonts, and can just die at like 20 getting hit at a weird angle near the ledge. I could maybe see this matchup being even at best for Richter. The thing you really have to do is suffocate Olimar so he can't get any momentum, which is something a lot of characters struggle to do.

For Wolf....yellow pikmin ignore the laser so it can be annoying if he has more than 1 pulled out. He has good moves for getting the pikmin off him though. I'm admittedly not that strong in this matchup because I have played against maybe 3 or 4 decent Olimar players since release. Watching Zackray handle Shuton though, he almost has to rush him down. Again, suffocate him so he can't get any good pikmin combinations. I don't think it's as easy to do since he can't outrange Olimar beyond laser, though. He can also struggle against really short characters as you have to somewhat rely on grounded options or catch them jumping/on a platform.

I barely know anything about the other two. I can see Lucina doing okay since I'm assuming she can quickly get pikmin off her as well.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Olimar is probably the hardest top tier to pick up in the current meta imo, he's extremely unforgiving to those not used to his weird ass playstyle and there's so many little things you have to know in order to do well with him. I think the biggest thing putting him SO far up on the tiers is MU inexperience, though. I still think he's great, but I don't see Olimar holding down top tier forever. As Sean said, not many people play Olimar and getting experience with that MU can be hard.

 

[N8than]

According to Dabuz, loses to /,,,,/,,, and .

I feel like is also a bad matchup for . because he has great get off me options (e.g; nair, psi magnet, up tilt, etc), can juggle him hard, and use pk fire to deal with pikmin (that aren't red). Ness can be especially oppressive when olimar is trying to recover; if the ness player reads that olimar is trying to recover high, then he can use pk thunder to lead into a juggle, and if he reads that olimar is recovering low he can use down air and/or pk thunder. Yes olimar has disjoints, but they don't give ness as much trouble as those of an actual sword character. In conclusion, I feel like the matchup is 55/45 in ness's favor.

 

[DelugeFGC]

According to Dabuz, loses to /,,,,/,,, and .

I feel like is also a bad matchup for . because he has great get off me options (e.g; nair, psi magnet, up tilt, etc), can juggle him hard, and use pk fire to deal with pikmin (that aren't red). Ness can be especially oppressive when olimar is trying to recover; if the ness player reads that olimar is trying to recover high, then he can use pk thunder to lead into a juggle, and if he reads that olimar is recovering low he can use down air and/or pk thunder. Yes olimar has disjoints, but they don't give ness as much trouble as those of an actual sword character. In conclusion, I feel like the matchup is 55/45 in ness's favor.

I would disagree and put it in Olimar's favor. Reads with PK Thunder aren't easy to pull off in higher level play, and Olimar can alter his recovery by chucking out Pikmin. Olimar is way better at being campy than Ness because Olimar reaps way more out of it on top of not camping the same way other characters do all while still remaining a large threat, and nothing Olimar does is going to lead into heavy use of things such as psi magnet and such like in other projectile character MU's with Ness. When Ness loses neutral to Olimar, it becomes FAR more in Olimar's favor than Ness'.. and Olimar also has an easier time in neutral against Ness if he plays right. I'd call Olimar / Ness like 60 / 40.

Olimar gets way more from remaining noncommittal the entire match when compared to Ness, and that can go a long way in this sort of MU. If Olimar were slow or extremely floaty as opposed to kind of floaty, it may be different.. but as is Olimar can juke out most of what Ness throws out all while putting out noncommittal, effective pressure.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness doesn't beat Olimar I entertain it being even but not winning for Ness and I get high level practice in the matchup. Olimar can be hard to actually approach and forces Ness to rely pretty hard on PKF to actually get pass the wall of Pikmin, on a platform stage, Olimar can reliably avoid these PKFs if he stays under them. (Stage is pretty important in this MU). Olimar damage output is bar second to none, Ness can keep up but it's not always enough to keep percentage gaps close per stocks. PKT isn't the most effective tool in the MU, Olimar can whistle through it. Speaking of Whistle, if Ness has to recover with PKT2 (avoidable but not always). Whistle is one of the safer ways to body block the move (obviously has risk but with the the removal of guaranteed teching, no character can reliably body block the move anymore like in S4 aside Olimar.) Ness can't really afford any screwups in this matchup, Olimar punishes way to hard. Definitely not in his favor.

Since Snake-Ness came up I will say the Mother Kid-Snake MU isn't bad for Snake. Speaking of Ness-Snake, Snake doesn't win but he's not helpless. His CQC game is still solid enough that he can play without explosives but it is fairly linear and he is forced to come at Ness in a fairly linear fashion which leads to easy PKF punishes. I do want to say that people overrated the level that Snake can bait magnet. Ness can while healing off the explosion of Snake's nades, those nades CAN still hurt Snake. If snake tries to use nades to bait magnet all Ness has to do is catch the nade first if it's an option and the explosion will hurt Snake if he tries to get close. Ness also has the option of just not using magnet and letting the Snake get counter baited into a dash attack he can punish.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Ness doesn't beat Olimar I entertain it being even but not winning for Ness and I get high level practice in the matchup. Olimar can be hard to actually approach and forces Ness to rely pretty hard on PKF to actually get pass the wall of Pikmin, on a platform stage, Olimar can reliably avoid these PKFs if he stays under them. (Stage is pretty important in this MU). Olimar damage output is bar second to none, Ness can keep up but it's not always enough to keep percentage gaps close per stocks. PKT isn't the most effective tool in the MU, Olimar can whistle through it. Speaking of Whistle, if Ness has to recover with PKT2 (avoidable but not always). Whistle is one of the safer ways to body block the move (obviously has risk but with the the removal of guaranteed teching, no character can reliably body block the move anymore like in S4 aside Olimar.) Ness can't really afford any screwups in this matchup, Olimar punishes way to hard. Definitely not in his favor.

Since Snake-Ness came up I will say the Mother Kid-Snake MU isn't bad for Snake. Speaking of Ness-Snake, Snake doesn't win but he's not helpless. His CQC game is still solid enough that he can play without explosives but it is fairly linear and he is forced to come at Ness in a fairly linear fashion which leads to easy PKF punishes. I do want to say that people overrated the level that Snake can bait magnet. Ness can while healing off the explosion of Snake's nades, those nades CAN still hurt Snake. If snake tries to use nades to bait magnet all Ness has to do is catch the nade first if it's an option and the explosion will hurt Snake if he tries to get close. Ness also has the option of just not using magnet and letting the Snake get counter baited into a dash attack he can punish.

Agreed on the Olimar vs. Ness MU, you said what I had a harder time trying to say considering I don't play either character. Well put.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of vs , what are currently some of the worst matchups in the game? An example that I've heard on twitter is vs /.

The worst I've found is vs . YL is a heavyweight destroyer; he's great at walling them and exploiting their disadvantage while having a few tricks to keep his disadvantage from being too bad. DDD has the worst mobility of any heavyweight, bad frame data (unlike Incineroar and Ridley) and no good burst options (DA is very slow and loses to projectiles and Dtilt has poor reward). All YL's projectiles and his sword bounce back Gordos so they're more of a liability to DDD. DDD can suck up a projectile and spit it out but YL can jump over it while angling down more projectiles. It comes down to DDD has to shield a lot while creeping closer and go for hard reads. He lives forever but DDD's disadvantage state is horrible in this MU.
I imagine DDD struggles vs Belmont too.

According to Dabuz, loses to /,,,,/,,, and .

I feel like is also a bad matchup for . because he has great get off me options (e.g; nair, psi magnet, up tilt, etc), can juggle him hard, and use pk fire to deal with pikmin (that aren't red). Ness can be especially oppressive when olimar is trying to recover; if the ness player reads that olimar is trying to recover high, then he can use pk thunder to lead into a juggle, and if he reads that olimar is recovering low he can use down air and/or pk thunder. Yes olimar has disjoints, but they don't give ness as much trouble as those of an actual sword character. In conclusion, I feel like the matchup is 55/45 in ness's favor.

I think Dabuz is selling Olimar short a little but it really goes to show how tool vs tool interaction between characters spreads across tiers. Zelda has good tools to combat Olimar even though she's probably a lower mid tier.

 

[DelugeFGC]

/// vs. is a slaughter.

The worst MU I can think off of the top of my head just from personal experience is vs. . Isabelle just gets wrecked badly.

 

[N8than]

I would disagree and put it in Olimar's favor. Reads with PK Thunder aren't easy to pull off in higher level play, and Olimar can alter his recovery by chucking out Pikmin. Olimar is way better at being campy than Ness because Olimar reaps way more out of it on top of not camping the same way other characters do all while still remaining a large threat, and nothing Olimar does is going to lead into heavy use of things such as psi magnet and such like in other projectile character MU's with Ness. When Ness loses neutral to Olimar, it becomes FAR more in Olimar's favor than Ness'.. and Olimar also has an easier time in neutral against Ness if he plays right. I'd call Olimar / Ness like 60 / 40.

Olimar gets way more from remaining noncommittal the entire match when compared to Ness, and that can go a long way in this sort of MU. If Olimar were slow or extremely floaty as opposed to kind of floaty, it may be different.. but as is Olimar can juke out most of what Ness throws out all while putting out noncommittal, effective pressure.

1) I meant PK Thunder the projectile, not PK Thunder 2, the first of which is actually very easy to make reads with. Also olimar can't chuck pikmin while using his up b
2) When I mentioned PSI magnet, I was referring to its hit box while being held that deals constant damage to anything that enters it, which makes it good tool for taking care of pikmin that are latched on to ness. I also said that psi magnet would be used heavily in this matchup like it would be against a character like snake, i merely mentioned it as an option to kill pikmin that are latched onto ness. This along with the other options i mentioned make it very easy for ness to deal with pikmin in neutral.

 

[N8than]

Ness doesn't beat Olimar I entertain it being even but not winning for Ness and I get high level practice in the matchup. Olimar can be hard to actually approach and forces Ness to rely pretty hard on PKF to actually get pass the wall of Pikmin, on a platform stage, Olimar can reliably avoid these PKFs if he stays under them. (Stage is pretty important in this MU). Olimar damage output is bar second to none, Ness can keep up but it's not always enough to keep percentage gaps close per stocks. PKT isn't the most effective tool in the MU, Olimar can whistle through it. Speaking of Whistle, if Ness has to recover with PKT2 (avoidable but not always). Whistle is one of the safer ways to body block the move (obviously has risk but with the the removal of guaranteed teching, no character can reliably body block the move anymore like in S4 aside Olimar.) Ness can't really afford any screwups in this matchup, Olimar punishes way to hard. Definitely not in his favor.

Since Snake-Ness came up I will say the Mother Kid-Snake MU isn't bad for Snake. Speaking of Ness-Snake, Snake doesn't win but he's not helpless. His CQC game is still solid enough that he can play without explosives but it is fairly linear and he is forced to come at Ness in a fairly linear fashion which leads to easy PKF punishes. I do want to say that people overrated the level that Snake can bait magnet. Ness can while healing off the explosion of Snake's nades, those nades CAN still hurt Snake. If snake tries to use nades to bait magnet all Ness has to do is catch the nade first if it's an option and the explosion will hurt Snake if he tries to get close. Ness also has the option of just not using magnet and letting the Snake get counter baited into a dash attack he can punish.

I know snake isn't helpless because he has nikita and range, but it still is one of his worst matchups. I guess i can agree with you on olimar being closer to even though, albeit more advantageous for ness than olimar.

 

[DelugeFGC]

1) I meant PK Thunder the projectile, not PK Thunder 2, the first of which is actually very easy to make reads with. Also olimar can't chuck pikmin while using his up b
2) When I mentioned PSI magnet, I was referring to its hit box while being held that deals constant damage to anything that enters it, which makes it good tool for taking care of pikmin that are latched on to ness. I also said that psi magnet would be used heavily in this matchup like it would be against a character like snake, i merely mentioned it as an option to kill pikmin that are latched onto ness. This along with the other options i mentioned make it very easy for ness to deal with pikmin in neutral.

I know he can't Pikmin Throw during Up B, but he can BEFORE it, and most good Olimar players aren't going to recover in a manner that allows easy use of PKT gimps, I know how you were referring to it and Psi Magnet, what I said still stands in the MU. If you want to argue it being even that's easier, but it beign in Ness' favor is a little out there. Olimar doesn't have to commit to most of what he does in this MU and can put Ness in the more unfortunate position when in neutral most all the time, and once Ness loses neutral to Olimar.. he has a pretty hard time in disadv. against him.

All said, it's not a slaughter or heavily in Olimar's favor. I just don't see any real way Ness is gonna be at an advantage in the MU.

 

[Allkings]

does even have a winning match up? (and does wreck someone hard?)

 

[Untouch]

I don't know the matchups well at all, but I feel Mac may do well against some of the heavies, namely Charizard, Bowser and Ganondorf, because of their lack of range.

 

[DelugeFGC]

does even have a winning match up? (and does wreck someone hard?)

Among the high / top tiers, Mac doesn't do any work, no. Among mid and low tiers, he can give , , & a hard time. , & aren't really lacking in range at all compared to Mac and I have no idea what the person above me is talking about.

Chrom has several very good MU's, , , , , , , /, & all get absolutely bodied by him in the mid / low tiers, and in high tier he does pretty decently against & though not by some absolutely huge margin, his speed and range can just shut their neutral down pretty hard. Outside of mid and low tier I wouldn't say he totally wrecks anyone, though. He has some good MU's in high tier for a lot of the same reasons as Lucina, but when certain aspects of offstage play or recovery come into any of it Chrom falls into a trash can. is widely regarded as a low mid-tier or high low-tier character but if he gets Chrom offstage in ANY position where Chrom has to use his Up B, Doc gets a free stock off of Chrom. Issues like that are mainly what plague him.

 

[N8than]

does even have a winning match up? (and does wreck someone hard?)

I remember in smash 4 Sol thought little mac had an even matchup against sheik, so maybe the fact that sheik is much worse and her lack of kill power is even more crippling means that little mac might have a winning match up against her.

 

[Sean²]

According to Dabuz, loses to /,,,,/,,, and .

I feel like is also a bad matchup for . because he has great get off me options (e.g; nair, psi magnet, up tilt, etc), can juggle him hard, and use pk fire to deal with pikmin (that aren't red). Ness can be especially oppressive when olimar is trying to recover; if the ness player reads that olimar is trying to recover high, then he can use pk thunder to lead into a juggle, and if he reads that olimar is recovering low he can use down air and/or pk thunder. Yes olimar has disjoints, but they don't give ness as much trouble as those of an actual sword character. In conclusion, I feel like the matchup is 55/45 in ness's favor.

He's probably better at the game than I'll ever be, but this smells like downplay to me.

I've been guilty of it before, but why is it so hard to accept your character is good? Many of those seem like matchups he just might not like, not ones that are actually bad for Olimar.

does even have a winning match up? (and does wreck someone hard?)

Mac...maybe characters who can't outrange him and can't easily gimp him. So maybe Mii Brawler? Sheik? Who knows?

Chrom can destroy most of the big bodies.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I wouldn't say so, Sheik can easily outmaneuver Mac in neutral, camp him, outrange him, etc. Sheik has serious issues in Ult, but her playstyle / design hasn't changed that much, damage output and knockback are what hurt her. So Mac isn't in any better a position, which is to say.. he's still in a meh one in that MU. Sheik can't gimp Mac as easily as many others can, but she can play around him in every other possible way.

Mac's range basically has to be looked at entirely from the perspective of his grounded moves, Sheik actually has viable (in terms of the hitbox, not the damage / KB) aerials pretty much across the board and in combination with her tilts, specials and speed can just run Mac in circles while chipping away. Mac's speed also has to be looked at pretty much entirely from a grounded perspective, he's lightning there but once characters go airborne he can have a hard time.. platforms or not.

 

[Sean²]

The question is, does anyone actually know the Sheik/Mac matchup? Does anyone care enough? I'd say he might be able to armor through a lot of her stuff, but she has needles to keep him out.

I feel like there's probably <1% chance to publicly see that matchup in the current patch.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Low tier tournaments do happen from time to time.