Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[|RK|]

I think we've carried "top 10" and "top 20" and such too easily from other Smash games.

Never mind the fact that the distinction is arbitrary, but it hardly gets the important point across. There are many characters in this game - YL or whoever else could easily be extremely competitive without having to be listed in the top 10, and - without having to be anything less than top tier.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There is literally, absolutely, totally.. no way. No character that can struggle to kill as much as he can, no character that has the few poor MU's he has, no character that can get outspaced as bad as he sometimes can by the other swordies.. is ever gonna be top 10, let alone best. Calling YL that is just, lunacy, imo. He's no where near close to that good.

YL has a meh disadvantage, lacking kill options compared to several other characters, lacking range compared to other sword characters, dies earlier than several characters, doesn't have astounding combo game, etc, etc. He's very good, but he's not THAT good my man. YL is a fantastic counterpick, YL is a beast in neutral in a LOT of MU's.. but he's just not top 10 material. It's not in his genes.

If you don't think his weaknesses can hold him back much, you've never played some of his iffy-ish MU's in higher level play. YL can SERIOUSLY struggle sometimes. I'm speaking as someone who has used him in tournament several times, he has too many problems to be top 10, god forbid 'best'.

Not for nothing but your personal experience with a character doesn't change their position on the tier list not only that whatever you do in tournaments isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on my thoughts on a character.

As for ylink struggling to kill there's times when he does struggle to kill and there's times when he takes stocks pretty early. Landing the right kill confirm or set up will basically allow for early KOs. If he couldn't confirm into kill moves off half his damn kit I'd probably agree with you. But ya know what he can confirm into kills off an absurd amount of move. It's actually obscene.

As a disclaimer I'm not coming at you or what you do in tournaments. I just base my opinions on what I see going on at the highest levels and try to predict how the character will look down the road. So if what I said makes you feel a certain type of way then maybe you need to grind more.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Not for nothing but your personal experience with a character doesn't change their position on the tier list not only that whatever you do in tournaments isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on my thoughts on a character.

As for ylink struggling to kill there's times when he does struggle to kill and there's times when he takes stocks pretty early. Landing the right kill confirm or set up will basically allow for early KOs. If he couldn't confirm into kill moves off half his damn kit I'd probably agree with you. But ya know what he can confirm into kills off an absurd amount of move. It's actually obscene.

As a disclaimer I'm not coming at you or what you do in tournaments. I just base my opinions on what I see going on at the highest levels and try to predict how the character will look down the road. So if what I said makes you feel a certain type of way then maybe you need to grind more.

Landing said kill confirms with YL isn't always just as easy as that, there are simply better all-round characters than him, more than 10.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Landing said kill confirms with YL isn't always just as easy as that, there are simply better all-round characters than him, more than 10.

Damn it's almost as if your main tools in neutral didn't confirm into kills. My bad what am I thinking.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Damn it's almost as if your main tools in neutral didn't confirm into kills. My bad what am I thinking.

Landing something in neutral isn't guaranteed, y'know. Fact is, while YL fishes for kills in the few ways he can, a lot can happen, especially in a lot of the top tier and high tier MU's. That's why he isn't top 10. YL pretty much always has to confirm into kills outside of high % situations in most MU's, it isn't like he's gonna land a stray hit at 80 that's gonna kill you. By that definition, he's working harder than other characters from the get-go.

If one character has to land a hit into a confirm in neutral, THEN rely on good execution to get a kill at high %'s, compared to another than can straight up land stray hits in neutral and kill at 70 or below.. how does that strike you as 'best'? It's not a matter of one or two, but several characters, having much better general toolkits and options than him. YL can definitely be a threat, even at the highest levels of play, but he just doesn't have what he would need to pull top tier out of his ass.

 

[Sean²]

I think we've carried "top 10" and "top 20" and such too easily from other Smash games.

Never mind the fact that the distinction is arbitrary, but it hardly gets the important point across. There are many characters in this game - YL or whoever else could easily be extremely competitive without having to be listed in the top 10, and - without having to be anything less than top tier.

I believe some people think there is a massive difference between #9-10 and #11-12 for some reason, as if there is a massive jump in how good a character is being one spot outside top 10.

This is why quadrant tier charts are superior to ordered tier lists in every way, especially for a game with 70+ characters. Ties are going to be everywhere and make it harder to objectively order every character.

I'm convinced fighting game players just like ordering things.

 

[Rizen]

YL has a meh disadvantage, lacking kill options compared to several other characters, lacking range compared to other sword characters, dies earlier than several characters, doesn't have astounding combo game, etc, etc. He's very good, but he's not THAT good my man. YL is a fantastic counterpick, YL is a beast in neutral in a LOT of MU's.. but he's just not top 10 material. It's not in his genes.

I agree YL's high tier, not top tier and with most of the stuff. I disagree with the parts in bold.

Disadvantage: YL has one of the better disadvantage states. If he's launched up he can pull a bomb and either throw it down or drift to the side and Z drop it to stop pursuers. Bombs are one of the best disadvantage tools after get out of jail free mobility options. Dair shifts YL's hurtbox, lasts like 60 frames and trades with or beats most upwards attacks except ones with big disjoint. Dair also bounces shields and attacks.
Offstage he can be intercepted but boomerang is great at covering YL. Boomerang returns and has gotten me out of several multi-hit moves like jab and dancing blades. He can mix up his recoveries with a tether, which is great if Ivysaur's trying to Dair him.

Combos: YL has one of the best combo games of the cast. He can air to ground convert off F/N/Bair, all having only 6f landing lag. He can ground to air convert off Dtilt and a few other more situational moves. He can air to ground to air double convert with Fair1/soft Nair>Dtilt>aerial or upB. Dthrow combos into N/Uair. Boomerang and bombs combo into things like Fair. YL can get 20-30% off half his moveset due to combos. I made a metagame thread about it.

I agree keeping track of %s for combos is harder than stray hits like Wolf's Bair. YL takes extensive practice and MU knowledge.

Not for nothing but your personal experience with a character doesn't change their position on the tier list not only that whatever you do in tournaments isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on my thoughts on a character.

In all fairness YL isn't getting top tier results either.

 

[TDK]

Just popping in to say I approve of this year's site facelift.

Also, my dad's brother's neighbour's cousin played the demo, and Joker is smash 4 Cloud with Sheik's runspeed and a better up-b, distancewise.

Have fun!

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Just popping in to say I approve of this year's site facelift.

Also, my dad's brother's neighbour's cousin played the demo, and Joker is smash 4 Cloud with Sheik's runspeed and a better up-b, distancewise.

Have fun!

I'ma need some sauce my good sir. Anything.

 

[DelugeFGC]

What in the hell has happened..


Also Rizen I was heavily intoxicated (life) at the time and didn't express myself as good as I could've. YL does not have a MEH disadv, but he doesn't have the best one, same with his combo game. I never meant to imply those things were bad, or even lacking.. I mainly meant he fell short in those areas compared to some of the other characters, which is mainly what hurts him alongside his lacking kill power and lighter-nature.

 

[KakuCP9]

As hammy as this April fools avi swap is, this is quite a way remember Reggie by. Plus he's the only April fools gag to have an even matchup with Shaq.
*sniff* I'm not crying. You're crying.
At any rate, all hail Doug as our new supreme overlord.
Also when can we get Terry Crews boards?

 

[Sean²]

The joke's on all of us, this site was always about Reggie. The addition of something as stupid as a party game was a total accident, and has just kind of ripped all the soul out of the board. Happy they finally took this to heart and renamed the site, so maybe we can finally stop being so off-topic.

 

[The_Bookworm]

As hilarious as our bodies just became (get it?), I am surprised the big Canada event, Battle of BC 3, went under our noses. Pikachu won both Melee and Ultimate singles of the event (Axe won Melee, and ESAM won Ultimate).

Here are the results of Ultimate singles:

1st: ESAM
2nd: Ally
3rd: CaptainZack
4th: Big D
5th: Pandarian
5th: Exodia
7th: Captain L
7th: Strike
9th: Locus
9th: LetsTickle
9th: Nurse
9th: Ouch

 

[TimG57867]

There’s more to look at than that! From the Results Thread:

Battle of BC 3 (436 Entrants) (British Columbia
1st: ESAM
2nd: Ally
3rd: Captain Zack
4th: Big D
5th: Exodia
5th: Pandarian
7th: Captain L
7th: Strike
9th: Ouch!?
9th: LetsTickle
9th: Nurse
9th: Locus
13th: Firefly
13th: Shoghi
13th: Duwang
13th: Legit247
17th: Proto
17th: Angis
17th: Max Ketchum
17th: Focus
17th: Machu
17th: Kantrip
17th: Irkaz
17th: Snickeldorf
25th: MumsCookie
25th: bSM
25th: Muramasa
25th: Linden
25th: Wagabooga
25th: FedVsRafa
25th: PoundCake
25th: Qphex

ESAM manages to score a big win and puts on another lovely showcase for Pikachu who is interestingly being experimented with Captain L now of all people. Also lot of colorful results in the mix including a 17th placing for the rather underused , Big D’s getting play time on the big stage, Captain Zack further asserting himself as a potent user, a 17th placing of and still being a common pick.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Oh my goodness Dedede get down from there, you're going to hurt yourself. Oh-- oh my-- he has two children held hostage, what????



In all seriousness, what does this say for D3 and ICs? D3, from what I've seen, is the most fought-over superheavy when it comes to placing him in line with the others. Then he Super Dedede Jumps into 4th at a major? Along with ICs, who I've commonly seen as not worth the effort in the long run? Maybe this is just a one-off thing but I'm not too sure.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the surprising lack of Wolfs. Only 1 in top 25? After this whole ordeal over whether he as top tier or not? Is this signifying the character hype fizzling after he was the FotM? I'm not sure.

 

[Impax]

Dont know what all bSM used but theres a match in pools against Big D where he played as snake posted on YouTube.

 

[Sean²]

I feel like Big D's placement was carried a bit by ICs. I didn't watch every VOD, but I saw a higher number of losses when he picked DDD over ICs. He pulled them out a lot in top 8, at least.

I'm not going to dump on his skill, he's clearly amazing to get 4th out of 436, but I wonder if matchup inexperience within top 8 boosted his placing a bit.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the surprising lack of Wolfs. Only 1 in top 25? After this whole ordeal over whether he as top tier or not? Is this signifying the character hype fizzling after he was the FotM? I'm not sure.

Everyone knows the matchup now. Most of Wolf's super high placings outside of locals/regionals and whatnot have been carried by Zackray and Tweek. He's basically S4 Cloud at this point, everyone had him as a secondary, not many actually fully main him. And it's hard to bring out your secondary for any one-off matches if everyone knows your secondary's matchup better than your main's. You're better off trying to stick it out with your main at that point.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

IDK, I play mostly Ness and I really struggle with D3 personally. He seems pretty strong to me, but it could be inexperience with the matchup or any number of other things. His ability to inhale PK Fire makes me second guess throwing it out, but not throwing it out opens me up to having to deal with the bouncing gordos. If he gets a lead he can kind of zone me off stage while I try to commit to approaches, it's really frustrating for me, but it's also something I know I need to work on.

 

[Sean²]

DDD can be annoying to characters who have trouble swatting his Gordo back at him. It's simple with a fast disjoint or projectile, which obliterates half his ability to play neutral. I feel like Ness's fair should be able to do the trick for you? Not 100% sure tbh. I'd probably only try to PK Fire when he's physically unable to suck it in.

 

[Frihetsanka]

King Dedede has the potential to be the best superheavy, and he might be the best superheavy in any Smash game. He certainly has the best results out of the superheavies. I'm inclined to disagree that gordos is an important advantage tool, from what I've seen fighting Dedede mains and watching high-level Dedede players it seems to be more of an advantage (and sometimes disadvantage) tool than a neutral tool. He seems to struggle against characters with good projectile camping, since his approach options seem limited. Characters like Mega Man and Young Link seem hard for him, for instance.

He's also probably one of the hardest characters to kill, due to having arguably the hardest recovery to edgeguard out of the superheavies and, well, being a superheavy. Some Dedede mains believe that he's high tier, I'm leaning more towards high-mid myself.

 

[Minordeth]

D3 is not a free win.

Just because Gordos can be reflected doesn’t mean he gets invalidated. He has enough set-ups and mix-ups with inhale and Gordo bounce variations that when coupled with his low-lag aerials make for a tricky MU. In addition, his range on his hammer is sizeable and he is a monster at the ledge.

Beyond that, Big D is a phenomenal player. I have no idea why a D3 and Captain Falcon player in Smash 4 decided to go with ICs, but his skill with the character is deep. Dabuz wasn’t the only player impressed with Big D’s execution of the desync techs and competency with the character.

If anything, Big D carried ICs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DDD can be annoying to characters who have trouble swatting his Gordo back at him. It's simple with a fast disjoint or projectile, which obliterates half his ability to play neutral. I feel like Ness's fair should be able to do the trick for you? Not 100% sure tbh. I'd probably only try to PK Fire when he's physically unable to suck it in.

Yeah I have tried to use fair, but if I try to fair pre-emptively it might mean I get whacked with a late gordo, and I can't afford to take trades.

The answer to this match-up is probably just to take it really slow and react to what he wants to do, I need to explore that more.

Generally when I play Ness, I struggle with characters with better air speed than me or multiple jumps, it makes it difficult to approach them and difficult to chase them down. PK Fire helps make up for that in many matchups but when it's off the table it can be difficult to get in.

 

[Sean²]

No one ever suggested DDD is a free win. I do have a tendency to intentionally exaggerate to add color to my posts, so whoops on my part. No, half his gameplan isn't invalidated if you can hit his Gordo back. Gordos are a crazy ledge trap tool that bait you into making bad decisions or take the Gordo hit. However, hitting Gordos back at him 90+% of the time can make things really hard on him. It's like playing Belmonts against a character with a good reflector. It can turn your best mixup options at times into bad options that can force you to take a more linear approach if their reflect game is on point. The hardest part about fighting him is that he can regularly live past 200% against some characters and has a recovery that can be hard to edgeguard. He can also camp you out on a stage like Battlefield if he really wants to, since the side platforms can force you to approach him from the front, which is never fun.

 

[Locke 06]

Beyond that, Big D is a phenomenal player. I have no idea why a D3 and Captain Falcon player in Smash 4 decided to go with ICs, but his skill with the character is deep. Dabuz wasn’t the only player impressed with Big D’s execution of the desync techs and competency with the character.

If anything, Big D carried ICs.

Big D plays melee ICs

Edit: April fools, he played Brawl ICs.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Yeah I have tried to use fair, but if I try to fair pre-emptively it might mean I get whacked with a late gordo, and I can't afford to take trades.

The answer to this match-up is probably just to take it really slow and react to what he wants to do, I need to explore that more.

Generally when I play Ness, I struggle with characters with better air speed than me or multiple jumps, it makes it difficult to approach them and difficult to chase them down. PK Fire helps make up for that in many matchups but when it's off the table it can be difficult to get in.

Your Gordo answer with Ness is Nair, Bair or Magnet. Fair is inconsistent due to the first hits being low damage multihits. You can also use Fsmash which may still be a OHKO if it hits D3 they may have changed that but obviously he can inhale it now so hitting him isn't as likely.

While Big D is a phenomenal player, D3 is definitely much better than before and it's not just Big D. A look at the results thread and you'll also see names like Peli straight win tournaments with D3. I think the biggest buff he received even more so than inhale is the low lag aerials and jump squat changed. He went from a cumbersome character in the air you didn't really have to respect to now being able to actually land, get strong aerial hitboxes out faster and actually make his presence above you a threat. As opposed to S4 where you just ran up and shielded the falling aerial and combo'd him for 40 and reset the situation. Getting overwhelmed by quick frame data isn't as glaring a weakness as it once was and it shows.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Did Captain Zack use Bayonetta outside of pools? The Bayonetta discord is saying he used Palu

Edit: Against Snickledorf's GnW

The way CZ played is, in my eyes, definitive proof that CZ has still got it

 

[SwagGuy99]

Some really bad matchups that can think of:

vs This is a very bad matchup for Mac. DK can survive until very high percents, he can edgeguard Mac better than most of the cast, he can juggle Mac, keep Mac out, and getting grabbed by DK is a death sentance for Mac.

and vs and These matchups are pretty similar to each other and don't require much thought to see why it is so bad. and may have trouble killing and but and also have trouble getting around fire arrows/pellets and are combo food as well.

vs This one was notorious for being a horrible matchup in Smash 4 and it still is in Ultimate. Pac's Trampoline can be destroyed now but it still gives Mac trouble. Pac Man's recovery is also really good and he can edgeguard Mac as well with f-air and b-air. Also, Mac struggles to deal with hydrant and projectiles and I honestly think that this could be the worst matchup in the game.

vs is pretty bad. can edgeguard, combo, juggle, and outrun and unlike vs , won't be dying at 60% to Ganondorf's attacks.

Ganon's UAir is actually a pretty decent juggling tool because of how large the hitbox is, especially on BF. ROB (though he's a pseudo-heavyweight) has his UAir and Bowser has pretty okay juggling ability for a super. Ridley as well, though that's another pseudo-heavy. Wario can juggle the ever living hell out of you, as can Ike, but those aren't supers either.

's cargo throw also annihilates as I mentioned above along with this edgeguarding. In general, I don't think does any better vs Super Heavies and Heavies than he does anyone else.

 

[Rizen]

As hilarious as our bodies just became (get it?), I am surprised the big Canada event, Battle of BC 3, went under our noses. Pikachu won both Melee and Ultimate singles of the event (Axe won Melee, and ESAM won Ultimate).

Here are the results of Ultimate singles:

1st: ESAM
2nd: Ally
3rd: CaptainZack
4th: Big D
5th: Pandarian
5th: Exodia
7th: Captain L
7th: Strike
9th: Locus
9th: LetsTickle
9th: Nurse
9th: Ouch

Did strike use Fox? ^here it says he did but here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-23175695
it says he just used YL.

I'm the kind of man who accepts results and DDD has them. I don't think he's the best super heavyweight (DK gets results too) but he is looking better than low tier. IMO DDD's a polarizing character based on if you have a good answer to gordos. Like K.Rool, he's a tanky heavyweight who doesn't hit as hard as someone like Ganon but lives a lot longer. DDD's definitely one of the best characters at surviving hits.

and vs and These matchups are pretty similar to each other and don't require much thought to see why it is so bad. and may have trouble killing and but and also have trouble getting around fire arrows/pellets and are combo food as well.

IMO K.Rool loses to YL but only slightly. YL loves to press buttons and K.Rool eats buttons with crown armor, belly armor and his reflector. He lives forever and YL can't kill very early. Somewhere in the match K.Rool's going to make the right call and put YL in disadvantage. K.Rool gets about 20% off grabs no matter how good you can mash because Uthrow alone deals 19%. YL still wins because he can juggle KRool hard and has the speed to punish his bad calls.

 

[Rocketjay8]

vs is pretty bad. can edgeguard, combo, juggle, and outrun and unlike vs , won't be dying at 60% to Ganondorf's attacks.

Pikachu has 79 weight which is about as light as Kirby surprisingly enough. So it's not like he's hard to KO.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I try to avoid bais when it comes to DDD when it comes to his results. Because as a user I feel she is also a very bad MU for D3.
Its one of the few MU's where you can consider Autoreticule and EF actually effective zoning tools. Autoreticule will reflect back Gordos and hit him if he tries throwing them inside ite range. Even without that she has the airiels to counter them imcluding that invincible bair. Plus Auto and EF can actullay wall him out due to his big-body and terrible air mobility. Also yeah he gets nair comboed to no end as you can figure
The only thing in D3's favor is Palu cannot edgeuard him as easily as other Superheavies

 

[DelugeFGC]

Did strike use Fox? ^here it says he did but here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-23175695
it says he just used YL.

I'm the kind of man who accepts results and DDD has them. I don't think he's the best super heavyweight (DK gets results too) but he is looking better than low tier. IMO DDD's a polarizing character based on if you have a good answer to gordos. Like K.Rool, he's a tanky heavyweight who doesn't hit as hard as someone like Ganon but lives a lot longer. DDD's definitely one of the best characters at surviving hits.

IMO K.Rool loses to YL but only slightly. YL loves to press buttons and K.Rool eats buttons with crown armor, belly armor and his reflector. He lives forever and YL can't kill very early. Somewhere in the match K.Rool's going to make the right call and put YL in disadvantage. K.Rool gets about 20% off grabs no matter how good you can mash because Uthrow alone deals 19%. YL still wins because he can juggle KRool hard and has the speed to punish his bad calls.

I'd say K. Rool loses that MU a little harder than that. On paper K. Rool has several tools capable of dealing with a character like YL, but in practice K. Rool is a lumbering hurtbox without any real amount of speed outside of his dash (he's sluggish overall), and he gets punished for things that you wouldn't even consider a 'mistake' in other MU's. The answers he does have to a character like YL do stick out in the MU, but his issues hold him back SO much that they don't end up evening the playing field much. His linear recovery is one of the few I feel comfortable hopping on top of with a YL DAir and its endlag or something (off the platform or a full hop, mind you) to stop it.


Also Dedede could very well be mid-tier. I personally stick him in low-tier for, similar reasons to most, but he's one of those characters I fully acknowledge has the means and promising to ascend a fair bit higher than that spot. On paper he's trash, but in practice he keeps getting results..

 

[Rizen]

I'd say K. Rool loses that MU a little harder than that. On paper K. Rool has several tools capable of dealing with a character like YL, but in practice K. Rool is a lumbering hurtbox without any real amount of speed outside of his dash (he's sluggish overall), and he gets punished for things that you wouldn't even consider a 'mistake' in other MU's. The answers he does have to a character like YL do stick out in the MU, but his issues hold him back SO much that they don't end up evening the playing field much. His linear recovery is one of the few I feel comfortable hopping on top of with a YL DAir and its endlag or something (off the platform or a full hop, mind you) to stop it.

K.Rool's upB recovery beats YL's Dair.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

As for Big D's Ice Climbers, he played pretty much the same way he does at his locals. Big D missed a lot of grabs and damage from those. In one of his games, he got a landing n-air at 0% but lost a lot of damage because he did not convert it into a grab. Big D played well but he can work on his edgeguarding more by using Blizz Wall (Blizzard desyncs) to easily cover the ledge with one Climber and use the other to punish roll in, or any other option the opponent may have chose.

In the Exodia set, match-up inexperience carried Big D. Exodia respected Blizz Wall too much (which resulted in him standing there not punishing Ice Climbers), and Ice Climbers in general. Add to that, the hype in the venue gave Big D a leg up. He only used desynched F-throw to f-air once, but he did get ledge trump > f-smash a few times. A lot of clips where the community popped off and Tylor on Twitter posted clips, were just basic Ice Climbers stuff that the people in attendance were unaware of. As for the Captain Zack set, he grew a brain in Game 2 and that was when Big D started to fall apart.

Some Ice Climber players say that Big D is just a good player who uses desyncs as he see fits, and I can see that.

Edit: Oh, and as for that teleport during one of the games, that's been in since Day 1, I've heard it called the Squall Glitch. No clue exactly why this happens but all I know is that you have to use Squall Hammer during a match to set it up.

Edit 2: Big D usually makes it grands at his locals. He is good at putting on a show. You guys can find at least 2 grand finals of him vs LetsTickle, an Inkling player.

Edit 3: I said that Big D, landed a F-throw to fair desynch, but in fact he did not (watching the set now and that part just happened). He just did Down throw to f-air which is not true if you DI away from Ice Climbers. Last time I brought it up in the server, I was told that Down throw to f-air is never true, so I guess Exodia must of thought it was so that's why he did not try to escape it.

Edit 4: Big D used Squall Hammer so much and his opponents let him get away with it. The move is punishable but it does autocancel or lowers the recovery frames if you do mash the move and the Ice Climbers leave the ground. This does not increase the damage of the move.

 

[DelugeFGC]

K.Rool's upB recovery beats YL's Dair.

Doesn't the blade beat nearly everything that can't outright beat it via the hitbox? K Rools heli-blades, I mean. YL DAir is mainly something I use when K Rool goes high and I can use the platforms or the full hop and get him right as he lands or as he goes into the sputter. YL DAir has too much endlag to go low with it regardless without a direct hit to bounce back on stage / to the ledge with, which isn't something I'd bank on. If K Rool goes low I chuck bombs down, if he goes middle I try to get him with FAir or NAir usually, sometimes UAir depending on positioning. DAir is by far the one I find myself being able to use the most though, as K Rool's recovery doesn't leave him a lot of positive room to go low without eating a ton of damage first (2-3+ bombs) or dying outright. Bombs don't always work, but I find they usually do if you can angle them right and move toward that option quickly. You can also sometimes get in low angled boomerangs that will clip him in the back, but this is rare.

Basically the situation ends up with K Rool trying to recover low or middle a handful of times, eating a bomb, FAir, NAir, maybe a boomerang or a fire arrow, etc.. then he starts trying to go for more ballsy recoveries up high which YL can pretty much always get to with DAir if you read it beforehand to position yourself. If not, UAir or FAir will do it, but I can usually bounce off of K Rool twice with DAir if he's not at high %'s so I prefer that move, plus it kills okay at higher percents. Regardless of which tool is used, though, YL has so many to contend with K Rool's linear recovery in multiple situations, making YL's kill problems far less severe in that MU.

 

[NotLiquid]

Cosmos posted his own personal tier list and while I'm not particularly in the mood - and kinda tired altogether - of discussing the minutiae of someone's ordering (even though I think the characters that encompass the top 20 is a fair selection considering how most characters are really good in this game), I find it kind of interesting that he considers Olimar sixth best/an S-tier gatekeeper rather than an actual S-tier character. And I highly doubt MU bias is reflective of that position considering he believes Olimar is one of the few bad matchups his main has.

Personally I think the character may as well be the best character in the game, but maybe someone can make a compelling reason as to why that might not be the case. Everything about Olimar just seems kind of stupidly overtuned and haphazardly designed to the point that I'm not really sure what weaknesses he really has.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I'd put Olimar, Wario and Fox in top tier personally. Otherwise I'd move Cloud up one tier. Otherwise it's mainly just small bickerings over specific tier placements, overall that's one of the better tier lists I've seen. (Without drawing every comparison here, my signature has my personal feelings on the matter if one wanted to compare the two for some benign reason.)

I feel tier placements in high and top tier and gonna be one of the biggest points of contention in Ult, simply because of how many truly viable characters there are.

 

[Rizen]

I more or less agree with his tier list^.

Doesn't the blade beat nearly everything that can't outright beat it via the hitbox? K Rools heli-blades, I mean. YL DAir is mainly something I use when K Rool goes high and I can use the platforms or the full hop and get him right as he lands or as he goes into the sputter. YL DAir has too much endlag to go low with it regardless without a direct hit to bounce back on stage / to the ledge with, which isn't something I'd bank on. If K Rool goes low I chuck bombs down, if he goes middle I try to get him with FAir or NAir usually, sometimes UAir depending on positioning. DAir is by far the one I find myself being able to use the most though, as K Rool's recovery doesn't leave him a lot of positive room to go low without eating a ton of damage first (2-3+ bombs) or dying outright. Bombs don't always work, but I find they usually do if you can angle them right and move toward that option quickly. You can also sometimes get in low angled boomerangs that will clip him in the back, but this is rare.

Basically the situation ends up with K Rool trying to recover low or middle a handful of times, eating a bomb, FAir, NAir, maybe a boomerang or a fire arrow, etc.. then he starts trying to go for more ballsy recoveries up high which YL can pretty much always get to with DAir if you read it beforehand to position yourself. If not, UAir or FAir will do it, but I can usually bounce off of K Rool twice with DAir if he's not at high %'s so I prefer that move, plus it kills okay at higher percents. Regardless of which tool is used, though, YL has so many to contend with K Rool's linear recovery in multiple situations, making YL's kill problems far less severe in that MU.

The most successful K.Rool recoveries I've seen go low under the stage and diagonally up along the bottom. His recovery's good enough he can afford to airdodge. I can get a bomb in but killing K.Rool from his recovery is difficult. He does take a ton of damage offstage though. Going high just seems like a bad idea.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I more or less agree with his tier list^.

The most successful K.Rool recoveries I've seen go low under the stage and diagonally up along the bottom. His recovery's good enough he can afford to airdodge. I can get a bomb in but killing K.Rool from his recovery is difficult. He does take a ton of damage offstage though. Going high just seems like a bad idea.

It may just be my MU's man, it never seemed like the most galaxy brain play when I saw it. K Rool also isn't nearly as popular at locals as he was online earlier on, so I haven't fought many outside of the good old ES / QP / BA. Three, overall, actually.. and I've probably fought like 50 Wolf's so that's definitely saying something. He's not as well represented as early predictions made him out like he would be.

I feel like most of the contention and controversy over tier stuff will be over high tier, maybe about the lower end of top tier to a point but high tier (specifically spots 6-19, high tier + / A tier) looks like it's gonna take a while to REALLY get a handle on. Though I feel the real sleeping dragon is mid tier, and where specific placements will go there. Characters like Simon/Richter for example have piss general MU spread due to glaring issue(s) with their kit (for them, it'd mostly be recovery related obviously) BUT are some of the most viable counterpick characters on the roster for a lot of MU's and can't simply be counted out as useless. There's a lot of characters who have this ability in the mid to low tier (mostly mid) range, so many that I think the list of viable counterpicks is gonna be the biggest, list, of the overall characters one could play competitively and could be the more important aspect of the tier list to look at. Counterpicks are huge in Ult it would seem.

 

[NotLiquid]

More new tech found by GimR. It turns out that shield shifting doesn't actually shift the parry hitbox, meaning that theoretically, you can afford a few extra frames of reaction time to parry and also reliably react to multiple options such as both fast fall/slow fall attacks. This isn't really that useful of a technique unless your character is medium-sized and also has a generous shield shift, it's essentially useless on big/small bodies, but it might be worth exploring for some characters.

 

[Browny]

Cosmos posted his own personal tier list and while I'm not particularly in the mood - and kinda tired altogether - of discussing the minutiae of someone's ordering (even though I think the characters that encompass the top 20 is a fair selection considering how most characters are really good in this game), I find it kind of interesting that he considers Olimar sixth best/an S-tier gatekeeper rather than an actual S-tier character. And I highly doubt MU bias is reflective of that position considering he believes Olimar is one of the few bad matchups his main has.

Personally I think the character may as well be the best character in the game, but maybe someone can make a compelling reason as to why that might not be the case. Everything about Olimar just seems kind of stupidly overtuned and haphazardly designed to the point that I'm not really sure what weaknesses he really has.

It sure is odd how so many people admit that they don't know enough about most characters to rank them properly, while also consistently putting them in the same place as everyone else. Almost like they're too afraid of having a different opinion...

At least he ranked the Pits good. They are severely underrated, possibly the most in the entire game. And good that G&W is finally getting recognised. Imagine people thinking you are bottom tier because 1 move got nerfed, while literally everything else was either buffed hard, or left as it was and his moves are generally very good to begin with.