Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

In my opinion...

Low tiers:

Bottom 3:

Mid tiers that keep getting mentioned as low tiers:

Characters that keep getting placed way too low and are likely high up on mid-tier at least:

Low High-Tiers that are currently slept on / not often played:

My 'non status-quo' top tier picks:

Characters that are placed too high on most lists:

Granted none of these except low tier are expansive, mind you. I just felt I'd mention some characters I feel are consistently placed oddly / wrong.

 

[KirbySquad101]

On the subject of low tiers as a whole, I think it's like RK summed up: We don't really know enough about most of the low tiers to justify their positions. After all, most were ready to write off , but both Trela and Tweek have been proving there's a lot more to him than we thought.

I kind of feel that's happening again with . Again, I'm not advocating that he's suddenly high/top tier status like Maister thinks he is, but I won't deny that Maister has been proving that he's got more going for him than we had perceived. I do personally think he's had too many strong showings in both locals and regionals to be regarded as a low tier, but we'll see if his current success stays in the long run.

 

[DelugeFGC]

No, but assigning characters to tiers is basically tradition and I feel most of us can't help it sometimes. I certainly can't.

 

[meleebrawler]

In my opinion...

Low tiers:

Bottom 3:

Mid tiers that keep getting mentioned as low tiers:

Characters that keep getting placed way too low and are likely high up on mid-tier at least:

Low High-Tiers that are currently slept on / not often played:

My 'non status-quo' top tier picks:

Characters that are placed too high on most lists:

Granted none of these except low tier are expansive, mind you. I just felt I'd mention some characters I feel are consistently placed oddly / wrong.

Oh, Charizard, thine job in 's team is truly a thankless one in an environment that largely praises the worth of an individual over the whole. You suffer constant slings and sneers who see you only as the guy who unjustly reaps the benefits of his teammate's hard work, prolong inevitable doom and recover, the latter two being situations one avoids in a perfect world. Nobody ever stops to consider that without you, your teammates would be but mid tiers at best.

Force yourself to stay as Ivy when recovering or facing superior camping and then tell me with a straight face Ivy deserves to be top tier.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I still consider Zard a low tier even though the ONLY reason I consider Ivy TT material is because of the PT package as a whole. I'm not saying he's useless, but as a character on his own he's pretty broken.

 

[Shaya]

Just chiming in to say
"told you Pacman had bayonetta hitboxes now".

That forward air is likely one of the best in the game, it's like, maybe 50% of the potency of S4 Bayo Fair-1, so like, holy crap,super-busted.

 

[Untouch]

Characters I would consider low tier (or lower) are...


I think Maister is in a situation similar to Tweek with Bowser Jr in Smash 4. Game and Watch is probably the best out of the low tiers though I would say.
I think if they changed his FAir a bit he could be higher mid tier, but the change to FAir limits him so much.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Considering it was just discovered IC's have an infinite that works on top tiers such as Pichu and they have seen some exciting lab development, I would not call them a low tier. I'd say they're somewhere in lower mid-tier atm. I also wouldn't call Robin or Sheik low tiers, nor Bayo.

Rest rest, barring MAYBE Isabelle, are total low tier food and I agree with that listing. It's a shame PP is so bad in particular for me, I really wanted to like him. His landing lag feels like Brawl.

 

[The_Bookworm]

For low tiers in my personal opinion.

Characters that are a little undertuned (with characters in greater need for buffs at the right):
Characters that are borderline non-functional:

I would also put and in the undertuned category. However, opinions on after 2.0.0 are all over the place, and time will tell if all the tech that is being discovered can actually be put into practical use. They have great combo potential, but no one has yet to put it to good use.

Obviously by itself is low tier, but I am against the notion that the Trainer's Pokemon should be ranked separately.

I can provide reasons why behind my opinions, but that is what I have.

 

[DelugeFGC]

The only reason I don't put Isabelle in low tier is because the few MU's (and it really sadly is.. few) that are in her favor can be a total slaughter if the Isabelle plays a certain way. Isabelle can take out some of the more popular picks atm with relative ease, like Ganon. I personally see her as the gatekeeper of going from low to mid tier, but I can see how a lot of people have problems with her. She definitely isn't a good character and her fundamental design is kind of bad in the first place, I'm not sure it's just a matter of 'oh buff her' because her problems run deeper than that. Sheik is a character that could become a solid high tier with the correct buffs, Isabelle isn't.

Mii Brawler is pretty crap though, I don't understand the hype they've gotten after 2.0.0

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

The only reason I don't put Isabelle in low tier is because the few MU's (and it really sadly is.. few) that are in her favor can be a total slaughter if the Isabelle plays a certain way. Isabelle can take out some of the more popular picks atm with relative ease, like Ganon. I personally see her as the gatekeeper of going from low to mid tier, but I can see how a lot of people have problems with her. She definitely isn't a good character and her fundamental design is kind of bad in the first place, I'm not sure it's just a matter of 'oh buff her' because her problems run deeper than that. Sheik is a character that could become a solid high tier with the correct buffs, Isabelle isn't.

Mii Brawler is pretty crap though, I don't understand the hype they've gotten after 2.0.0

Sheik could without a doubt become a heavy hitter with the most minor of tweeks to her moveset.

What is your opinion on Bayonetta and her placement?

Also I have zero faith in Mind Brawler atm

 

[DelugeFGC]

Sheik could without a doubt become a heavy hitter with the most minor of tweeks to her moveset.

What is your opinion on Bayonetta and her placement?

Also I have zero faith in Mind Brawler atm

I think Bayo is sulking somewhere near the bottom of mid tier, but she could go higher overtime if people develop her. I don't know a lot about her as I've only ever faced one myself in a local tournament outside of offline practice, friendlies, online in BA's and QP / ES and such (faced plenty there) so I can't comment a ton from experience as she's not the most popular pick anymore. From what little I've played of her, what little I've played against in competitive settings and mainly from what I've seen.. she's a bit of a buster.

 

[N8than]

Q for the thread: who do you consider low tier? Granted IDK very much about these characters, because they're never used, but I'd loosely say:
and maybe ?
The more I look at this list the more I realize a lot of it is guesswork based on lack of evidence that they're good so feel free to correct me.

I

In my opinion...

Low tiers:

Bottom 3:

Mid tiers that keep getting mentioned as low tiers:

Characters that keep getting placed way too low and are likely high up on mid-tier at least:

Low High-Tiers that are currently slept on / not often played:

My 'non status-quo' top tier picks:

Characters that are placed too high on most lists:

Granted none of these except low tier are expansive, mind you. I just felt I'd mention some characters I feel are consistently placed oddly / wrong.

Who said and were low tiers?! Both of these characters are clearly high tier (especially who actually has the results to back this)! Also I feel like is pretty underrated and might have some potentially good matchups against top tiers.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I

Who said and were low tiers?! Both of these characters are clearly high tier (especially who actually has the results to back this)! Also I feel like is pretty underrated and might have some potentially good matchups against top tiers.

I see people rate all of the above characters very low on a consistent basis. I'm not saying I agree, I myself understand the slept on main problem, and I won't rest until my boy Falcon bodies the whole roster.

 

[Gérard Majax]

I feel like this thread is kinda derailing again.

I'm late to the "recovery party", but saying that Lucas recovery is bottom 3 is just ridiculous and shows very limited knowledge of the character. Who cares that PK thunder is easy to edgegard (and even then it's not 100% free) when he has a tether, a really good double jump and the best airdodge in the game in terms of distance. Ness is more arguable but I'm not even sure about his bottom 3 status tbh (double jump, airdodge, pkt2 will kill you if you mess up and can't just cheese it with reflectors/pocket/water).

Also I feel like the "Game and Watch fair sucks" meme needs to die. Sure it loses to any hitbox and can feel kinda clunky to use if you are used to the box but thanks god it does, because this move is ridiculously spammable (+ it kills and has reasonable range). Watch any Maister set he spams the hell out of this thing, he may only hit a fraction of the fair he throws but there is pretty much 0 risks to it.

I'm also extremely dubious about any "G&W is bottom tier" claim. Like yeah Maister's performance might be a random streak and matchup inexperience and bla bla bla careful careful no bandwagon, but seriously we are talking about a character who has :
- Arguably the best up b OOS in the game, fast, ridiculous range, strings into a uair most of the time.
- Bucket, which is just broken in some matchups (the most obvious being snake, seriously mvd used nades a few time, then got naired -> bucket and died at 0 lmao).
- Really good offstage game (up b is really hard to contest, random key/bombs to edgegard).
- A neutral game which looks arguably more complete than in 4, thanks to landing nair being a thing and chef being usable.
- Reasonable damage output and kill power (nair does 50 billion damage and combos, he still has dthrow combos at low to mid %, dsmash has ridiculous range and kills at like 80).
- Wins over MVD, Esam, last hit last stock against Cosmos, a reasonable showing against Marss (Snake, Pika, inkling and ZSS are all high/top tiers with very different gameplans btw), probably other that I'm forgetting.

Bottom tier characters are usually obvious when you see them. Bayo has close to 0 redeeming qualities and is being deserted by all of her previous mains. Mac trades the worst air game in the game for a ground game which is not even that great. Plant has ridiculously undertuned normals and no neutral game. Even character who I feel are better like Kirby, DDD or Sheik have blatant issues which are easy to point out. Game & Watch? Looked like a fairly complete character to me in the 4 sets I mentioned.
I'm not saying that he is sleeper OP or anything, as I've yet to see him against swords (+ I haven't checked everything Diabolique mentionned about bair being unsafe on shield and stuff and everyone playing the matchup wrong, which could be true on the long term), but saying that he is bottom 3 because "lol bomb sucks" is completely disregarding the amount of tools the character has.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I feel like this thread is kinda derailing again.

I'm late to the "recovery party", but saying that Lucas recovery is bottom 3 is just ridiculous and shows very limited knowledge of the character. Who cares that PK thunder is easy to edgegard (and even then it's not 100% free) when he has a tether, a really good double jump and the best airdodge in the game in terms of distance. Ness is more arguable but I'm not even sure about his bottom 3 status tbh (double jump, airdodge, pkt2 will kill you if you mess up and can't just cheese it with reflectors/pocket/water).

Also I feel like the "Game and Watch fair sucks" meme needs to die. Sure it loses to any hitbox and can feel kinda clunky to use if you are used to the box but thanks god it does, because this move is ridiculously spammable (+ it kills and has reasonable range). Watch any Maister set he spams the hell out of this thing, he may only hit a fraction of the fair he throws but there is pretty much 0 risks to it.

I'm also extremely dubious about any "G&W is bottom tier" claim. Like yeah Maister's performance might be a random streak and matchup inexperience and bla bla bla careful careful no bandwagon, but seriously we are talking about a character who has :
- Arguably the best up b OOS in the game, fast, ridiculous range, strings into a uair most of the time.
- Bucket, which is just broken in some matchups (the most obvious being snake, seriously mvd used nades a few time, then got naired -> bucket and died at 0 lmao).
- Really good offstage game (up b is really hard to contest, random key/bombs to edgegard).
- A neutral game which looks arguably more complete than in 4, thanks to landing nair being a thing and chef being usable.
- Reasonable damage output and kill power (nair does 50 billion damage and combos, he still has dthrow combos at low to mid %, dsmash has ridiculous range and kills at like 80).
- Wins over MVD, Esam, last hit last stock against Cosmos, a reasonable showing against Marss (Snake, Pika, inkling and ZSS are all high/top tiers with very different gameplans btw), probably other that I'm forgetting.

Bottom tier characters are usually obvious when you see them. Bayo has close to 0 redeeming qualities and is being deserted by all of her previous mains. Mac trades the worst air game in the game for a ground game which is not even that great. Plant has ridiculously undertuned normals and no neutral game. Even character who I feel are better like Kirby, DDD or Sheik have blatant issues which are easy to point out. Game & Watch? Looked like a fairly complete character to me in the 4 sets I mentioned.
I'm not saying that he is sleeper OP or anything (I've yet to see him against swords), but saying that he is bottom 3 because "lol bomb sucks" is completely disregarding the amount of tools the character has.

All that's fantastic, but when you die for free off the edge most of the time, it kind of goes out the window. My mind is kind of made on that, they've always had a trash recovery, and my opinion on it isn't new. Pointing out all this stuff a character can do on paper is great and I do it at times myself, but when put into situations where edge guarding is possible / likely, PK Thunder gets you killed in a lot of MU's and always has. It's the OG trash recovery.

When I stop taking stocks off of Lucas / Ness for free both in and outside of competitive settings any time I get an edge guard opp, maybe I'll change my mind on it. Lucas / Ness mid-Up B just begs for my DAir and it's easy to 2 frame to boot. Years of this MU have taught me to actively chase Lucas / Ness offstage, even if considered reckless as I finish out my combos / follow ups. It puts you in easy positions to gimp them EVERY time. If you're already airborne / above them when they hit the up special, them landing it is out the window 99% of the time. They also don't have jack to stop me from doing any of this, none of their aerials or specials save them here. I had a partner back in the Melee days who was a die hard Ness man, so I got quite used to fighting him there and in 64, played some Brawl/PM with him too. I'll admit I have very little / zero experience with Sm4sh Ness / Lucas.

They're great onstage in this game imo, but they die for free offstage and always have, that's been true for like 20 years now and I'm sticking to it. I'm not saying there's nothing Lucas / Ness can do to try and prevent getting knocked offstage to begin with, BUT ONCE THAT HAPPENS.. it's usually over if the player against them knows the MU and isn't playing a snail with poor air game. When it comes down to it, the Up B itself is not that reliable in high level play for getting back onstage in a LOT of MU's when it comes time to use it, thus why I have such a low opinion of it. Maybe bottom 3 was harsh, but it'll never leave bottom 10 in my eyes. I still think it's at least bottom 5.

Just like I tell people saying the whip tether doesn't do much at all to assist Simon / Richter, I'll say the same for the Lucas tether. It does no good when you can't get in range to tether without being gimped by half the roster. Even though I'm a Falcon main, I go for offstage play constantly even though I'm fully aware I could end up suffering for it, so maybe I have views based around that.. but still. Characters like Lucina are edge guarding machines, I feel a Lucas / Ness recovery would just quiver in the face of that.. I just can't give PK Thunder / the snakey-boi too much love.

 

[Gérard Majax]

Pk thunder bad.

Well yeah PK thunder is relatively easy to edgegard, sure I'll give you that.

But my point is that Lucas, and to a lesser extend Ness, actually don't have to use it to get back on stage most of the time thanks to magnet, a high double jump, an airdodge the size of a bf platform, and in Lucas case zair. Watch any Lucas set and count how much time they have to use pk thunder to recover, then count how much time Lucas was able to just tether grab the ledge for free. Hint : the latter happens more often than the former.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Well yeah PK thunder is relatively easy to edgegard, sure I'll give you that.

But my point is that Lucas, and to a lesser extend Ness, actually don't have to use it to get back on stage most of the time thanks to magnet, a high double jump, an airdodge the size of a bf platform, and in Lucas case zair. Watch any Lucas set and count how much time they have to use pk thunder to recover, then count how much time Lucas was able to just tether grab the ledge for free. Hint : the latter happens more often than the former.

I know what you're saying, but they don't have stellar air speed either and chasing them offstage for a spike or a BZ launch isn't exceptionally difficult for a lot of characters.

Regardless of that, PK Thunder is their recovery move, and that's more-so what I was referring to with my original question. Not how well a character can make it back on stage in general, but how people would rank Up Specials in relation to how well they assisted their character's recovery. I should've clarified that.

 

[ARISTOS]

Not how well a character can make it back on stage in general, but how people would rank Up Specials in relation to how well they assisted their character's recovery. I should've clarified that.

Why would you limit it to just Up Specials? Boost Kick is mediocre as recovery but ZSS is not easy to edgeguard without needing a 1000IQ, so obviously having a bad Up-B is not the end all be all regarding recovery.

It makes more sense to look at things in total

 

[DelugeFGC]

Why would you limit it to just Up Specials? Boost Kick is mediocre as recovery but ZSS is not easy to edgeguard without needing a 1000IQ, so obviously having a bad Up-B is not the end all be all regarding recovery.

It makes more sense to look at things in total

Because the question was wholely related to up specials in relation to recovery? It's not the end-all factor of recovery, I've stated this, but that's not that I was gauging. Not really US either I guess, I suppose just 'the recovery move(s)' of a character. Not factoring in anything outside of B moves. I'm aware this isn't the sole factor, if it were Puff would be the worst character in the game in terms of recoveries. I was just gauging opinions related to recovery MOVES, I suppose.

 

[|RK|]

Out of curiosity - how many of you saying G&W is low tier have played a good G&W?

 

[Rizen]

I

Who said and were low tiers?! Both of these characters are clearly high tier (especially who actually has the results to back this)! Also I feel like is pretty underrated and might have some potentially good matchups against top tiers.

IMO Ness is high tier.
Like I said, IDK a lot about those characters but it seems like Lucario never does anything and his frame data is lacking. Fastest ground move UTilt f6, jab f 7, all around kind of meh except f4 Dair and he doesn't have a ton of disjoints to justify it (although with aura he gets some).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Out of curiosity - how many of you saying G&W is low tier have played a good G&W?

The fact that you can count the number of G&Ws that exist on one hand alone talks about his long term viability more than anything else.

IMO Ness is high tier.
Like I said, IDK a lot about those characters but it seems like Lucario never does anything and his frame data is lacking. Fastest ground move UTilt f6, jab f 7, all around kind of meh except f4 Dair and he doesn't have a ton of disjoints to justify it (although with aura he gets some).

Yeah uh... Lucario is pretty clearly not high tier. I'm not sure he's even in the upper half of mid. Dude's frame data is kinda poop, aura doesn't seem to be single handedly carrying him in MUs as much, he's not a fan of all of the swords in top/high tier either. He's always going to have the potential to blow somebody up, but so does Ganondorf, DK, K. Rool, Falcon, etc etc.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Out of curiosity - how many of you saying G&W is low tier have played a good G&W?

Our state's PR G&W seemed to drop the character when Ultimate hit.

Not looking good where I'm from.

 

[|RK|]

The fact that you can count the number of G&Ws that exist on one hand alone talks about his long term viability more than anything else.

You could have said the EXACT same thing about Greninja. Just a few weeks ago, Dabuz was questioning why no one was playing the char despite it being so good. And lets not get started on Shulk.

Our state's PR G&W seemed to drop the character when Ultimate hit.

Not looking good where I'm from.

Most G&W's thought he was terrible on launch. Maister included IIRC. Many of them are coming around after spending more time with him.

But let me go over some notes instead of being cryptic:

Game & Watch has a worse neutral flat out. Or at least, a weirder one. He pretty much has bair and fair baits in neutral (I'm told the hitbox increase was helpful). He can basically put on pressure with fair to make you do something - shield, attack, whatever. It's not amazing in my experience, but it's there & people aren't really always experienced with it. Bair is also a thing, and nair - which is a constant hitbox unlike S4. But that's not the important bits.

The important part is that his juggling, ledgetrapping, and disadvantage are all improved from Smash 4.

Disadvantage is kind of obvious. He can't be easily edgeguarded without a hard read on his up b, and he can mix it up, drift, attack out of it, so forth. Helps that it's extremely quick, too. But that's only offstage disadvantage - in a game where shield pressure is king, up b oos is INCREDIBLE, and very few players are prepared for it. Almost any button you press on his shield will be stuffed, and he can use it to lead into his advantage state.

In S4, uair was generally used to harass people, but was never really something to worry about unless it came from a dthrow at very specific percents. If it could hit you, G&W was uncomfortably close. Now? Look at Marss vs Maister, and I want you to remember that ZSS still has among the best disadvantage states in the game. You can take so much damage from being above G&W, and he doesn't even have to commit to being next to you in order to hit you. Those uairs rack up damage from a distance, and G&W can mix it in with other moves like nair and up b in order to keep pressure going.

So maybe the best place to go is ledge - where chef will ensure you eat another billion percent for trying to escape. And G&W is pretty good at edgeguarding too - he can go extremely deep without worrying about not being able to recover.

That's without talking about bucket being nigh lagless now, which is REALLY good in a game where projectiles are powerful. He can throw it out without commitment and get a ton of reward from it.

Overall, G&W is a weird character to place. He seems to thrive more off the fact that you'll eventually do something dumb - like try to hit his shield - and then he'll play his game from there. His neutral really isn't amazing, but he doesn't necessarily play from making the opponent do anything. He kind of plays from the opponent choosing to do something on their own - if that makes sense.

But I get why people think he's low tier if they don't see or play against this type of stuff. I think he's somewhere in higher mid tier or possibly higher? Hard to rank anyone in this game. But I wouldn't put him in bottom anything.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Shulk is a high tier with top tier growth potential imo. More technical, but once someone decides to take Shulk far I feel Shulk has absolutely disgusting potential, I've 0-deathed people in like 7 seconds with Shulk using things such as buster cancel to smash combos.. he's VERY good.

 

[PK Bash]

So we know that Simon's recovery is "exploitable". But has anyone actually looked at why this recovery is "exploitable"?

Whenever Simon is forced or can be forced offstage, there is basically a 50-50 in play on whether or not Simon will airdodge to stage or whether he will do something else (jump or tether primarily). Losing the 50-50 should mean losing your stock.
(Simon is afforded one additional mixup, the early up B, but you do not need me to explain why this is bad and not a real option for him to avoid this consistent 50-50.)

Once you understand this, exploiting this character's recovery is laughably easy. Every character can exploit this somehow.

Here I'll look at examples from a very recent Simon set where Simon is forced offstage. I deliberately went for a set of Simon vs Villager because I'm trying to prove a point here, but I'm sure all of you can think of ways to apply this basic principle to your own main (these examples should bear fruit for most every character).
n.b. Simon does not die at every example, but the point is, he most certainly could have done.


Example 1: Simon does not airdodge (Simon chooses Jump)
https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=97
Note how Simon is not offstage at time of jumping, yet still the 50/50 applies (Villager is able to act first, prompting an action).

Example 2: Simon does not airdodge (Simon chooses tether)
n.b. mis-spaced, but had this nair connected that would have been a stock.
https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=351
2a: https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=399 covers every angle

Example 3: Simon airdodges
https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=433
This is probably the clearest example in the set of the situation you get when Simon guesses right with an airdodge in these situations.

Hopefully this is an adequate explanation of why Simon's recovery is bad, rather than just saying "it's exploitable" and leaving it at that.

So if you ever wondered why you never see this character at top level...

 

[DelugeFGC]

So we know that Simon's recovery is "exploitable". But has anyone actually looked at why this recovery is "exploitable"?

Whenever Simon is forced or can be forced offstage, there is basically a 50-50 in play on whether or not Simon will airdodge to stage or whether he will do something else (jump or tether primarily). Losing the 50-50 should mean losing your stock.
(Simon is afforded one additional mixup, the early up B, but you do not need me to explain why this is bad and not a real option for him to avoid this consistent 50-50.)

Once you understand this, exploiting this character's recovery is laughably easy. Every character can exploit this somehow.

Here I'll look at examples from a very recent Simon set where Simon is forced offstage. I deliberately went for a set of Simon vs Villager because I'm trying to prove a point here, but I'm sure all of you can think of ways to apply this basic principle to your own main (these examples should bear fruit for most every character).
n.b. Simon does not die at every example, but the point is, he most certainly could have done.


Example 1: Simon does not airdodge (Simon chooses Jump)
https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=97
Note how Simon is not offstage at time of jumping, yet still the 50/50 applies (Villager is able to act first, prompting an action).

Example 2: Simon does not airdodge (Simon chooses tether)
n.b. mis-spaced, but had this nair connected that would have been a stock.
https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=351
2a: https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=399 covers every angle

Example 3: Simon airdodges
https://youtu.be/TUet27GEcrI?t=433
This is probably the clearest example in the set of the situation you get when Simon guesses right with an airdodge in these situations.

Hopefully this is an adequate explanation of why Simon's recovery is bad, rather than just saying "it's exploitable" and leaving it at that.

So if you ever wondered why you never see this character at top level...

I've seen high level Simon / Richter, but no top level Simon / Richter.

As many problems as they have, I'd like to see them developed more. They are interesting characters.. that ****ing recovery though..

I've blocked their stage tether with my character's body (jumping out in front of the ledge, usually trying to trade with them to knock them out as I know I can afford it) on more than one occasion and watched them die as they kept falling, and if you run up to the ledge real quick a lot of S / R players will brain scramble, throw out NAir and die even freer.


Most exploitable recoveries: (Just Aether)(Or lack of it, more accurately, if Jigg's is recovering low, she dies)

Lucas I may feel differently about. His PK Thunder yields high distance launches compared to the Ness one, so his ability to stay further out to avoid edge guards does give his recovery more credit.

 

[Avokha]

I've seen high level Simon / Richter, but no top level Simon / Richter.

As many problems as they have, I'd like to see them developed more. They are interesting characters.. that ****ing recovery though..

I've blocked their stage tether with my character's body (jumping out in front of the ledge, usually trying to trade with them to knock them out as I know I can afford it) on more than one occasion and watched them die as they kept falling, and if you run up to the ledge real quick a lot of S / R players will brain scramble, throw out NAir and die even freer.

You should be aware that if the belmonts tether is in range to connect to the ledge, attempting to block the tether attempt by putting your characters body in the tethers path won't prevent the tether. The chain will go through you and automatically catch the ledge, so you need to hit the belmont out of the tether attempt. Luckily, because of this, there is no risk of trades occurring if the belmont opts to tether, so it's somewhat free to hit them out of it.

 

[DelugeFGC]

You should be aware that if the belmonts tether is in range to connect to the ledge, attempting to block the tether attempt by putting your characters body in the tethers path won't prevent the tether. The chain will go through you and automatically catch the ledge, so you need to hit the belmont out of the tether attempt. Luckily, because of this, there is no risk of trades occurring if the belmont opts to tether, so it's somewhat free to hit them out of it.

That's basically what I'm doing. I'm aware that it tethers regardless, if it touches the ledge, our vampire slaying hero is safe.

But if you wildly jump out like a suicidal leopard, they'll usually screw up their positioning, hit you and whiff the ledge.. and just.. drift down.. sweet prince. Or mindlessly NAir for some reason and die. Your body moving in front of the ledge usually makes them react in odd ways, though these are local tournament and online S / R players so I'm sure it's not a super viable means all the time. I usually challenge them directly offstage with aerials, but this has been one method I've seen success with.

One thing I've seen people less familiar with the MU do is run out and get hit by Up-B, nearly every time. Unless S/R is right under the ledge to snap it, this isn't a move you should be getting hit by and it's super easy to interrupt / punish.

Ironically, Simon / Richter REALLY suck in the.. mirror-matchup. Their whips are a nightmare for one another when one is offstage and one isn't. Gimping Simon / Richter AS Simon / Richter is so free. Irony at its best.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Q for the thread: who do you consider low tier? Granted IDK very much about these characters, because they're never used, but I'd loosely say:
and maybe ?
The more I look at this list the more I realize a lot of it is guesswork based on lack of evidence that they're good so feel free to correct me.

I'm not sure I'd call low/bottom tier. Lloyd Rocket and his recovery alone keep him out of low/bottom tier as a lot of the worse characters can't mess with his recovery or get past lloyd rocket (and f-air and b-air).


Edit: Also, in general, I don't really think that there are too many low tiers in Smash Ultimate although I do think there are a lot of characters in mid tier which are characters that I consider to be (at the very least) situational counterpicks that may work well if you also play a high/top tier character. Right now, my definition of a Low Tier in Ultimate are characters who's weaknesses are very hard to work around and whose strengths are exploitable and/or characters who have little to no relevant matchups in Top or High Tier. Most mid tiers (like for example) have some relevant matchups that they win. ( for and for are some good examples).

So here's my thoughts

Low Mid Tier (AKA Could be Low Tier in the Future but I see some possible room for growth; This is ordered):

I really can't decide on this one so he gets to go between these tiers:

Low Tier (May have some very situational uses but are poor characters overall with minimal strengths, lackluster gameplans, and/or significant weaknesses):

Is really that Bad that he gets Bottom Tier to himself:

 

[Fastblade5035]

Q for the thread: who do you consider low tier? Granted IDK very much about these characters, because they're never used, but I'd loosely say:
and maybe ?
The more I look at this list the more I realize a lot of it is guesswork based on lack of evidence that they're good so feel free to correct me.

The only ones I am experienced enough in to confidently consider 'low tier' material are
, and maybe . The first 4 are all suffering from either core design flaws to their moveset, frame data, or just design as a whole. The last two are iffy because while I personally feel they are completely underwhelming and worthy of being there, I have heard enough whispers of potential with them. I don't necessarily agree with it but who knows, maybe eventually one of these icie combos will actually break out and dominate a tourney. Until then though I'd keep considering Icies at the bottom.

 

[Siledh]

Are the Belmonts the only ones who can hit the upper platform on BF without an aerial, just their Usmash? That took me totally by surprise.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Are the Belmonts the only ones who can hit the upper platform on BF without an aerial, just their Usmash? That took me totally by surprise.

Ptooie can work as well.

 

[Illusion.]

Our state's PR G&W seemed to drop the character when Ultimate hit.

Not looking good where I'm from.

Your location is set as Texas, but we’ve never had a G&W on the state PR. Who are you referring to?

 

[Lore]

Your location is set as Texas, but we’ve never had a G&W on the state PR. Who are you referring to?

Pretty interested in this answer as well, as a Texas and G&W outsider.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

I think everyone is underestimating Lucas' recovery. He can come back from the stage seemingly anywhere with Up B, has a tether, great airspeed, best double jump in the game, etc.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Your location is set as Texas, but we’ve never had a G&W on the state PR. Who are you referring to?

Oh that.
I don't actually live in Texas, that's just an old inside joke I never bothered to changed. lol

I'm referring to Jerm from NE.
He was PR a few times in Sm4sh.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think everyone is underestimating Lucas' recovery. He can come back from the stage seemingly anywhere with Up B, has a tether, great airspeed, best double jump in the game, etc.

Lucas gets more distance out of PK Thunder, doesn't he? If so, he can hang back further from the stage to avoid edge guarding in some MU's, but in others (like Lucina who can chase you most anywhere offstage safely up until the BZ) it could still screw him if it needs to be used. I've been able to stop his tether pretty consistently by following him offstage during my combos and follow ups which usually either leaves him open to a knee or DAir. Sometimes NAir, or BAir if I attack cancelled / RAR'd before leaving the stage. If you stop AT the stage, him and even Ness can make it back pretty alright.

I'm pretty reckless with offstage play and I try to take things as far as I can reasonably can all the time, so maybe I'm biased.

 

[N8than]

IMO Ness is high tier.
Like I said, IDK a lot about those characters but it seems like Lucario never does anything and his frame data is lacking. Fastest ground move UTilt f6, jab f 7, all around kind of meh except f4 Dair and he doesn't have a ton of disjoints to justify it (although with aura he gets some).

I agree with all the points you mentioned, although I still feel like a character that benefits from being alive at higher percents has a place in a meta dominated by combo heavy midweights and lightweights that generally kill slightly later than other characters or have trouble getting those kills reliably. The fact that many top players play these kind of characters might shape their perspective so that despite Lucario's weaknesses they view him as a major threat.