Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

(also, I think she could do good in some matchup by playing super campy, a thing which I've never seen being done by her main players in this game, she has ok mobility thanks to her specials + bullet arts and neutralB to force approaches)

She can't really play the campy game in this game. This is from the combination the big nerfs from her neutral special (can't hold charge indefinitely + can't cancel until fully charged), and, most importantly, the big mobility buffs everyone else got.

Nairo 3-0'd Light.. With GANNONDORF..

This.this is....I sorry I dont care what anyone else says..This Collison 2019 has been freaking AMAZING. This is the most fun I have had watching an Ultimate competition yet.

I didn't see the set, but that actually happened?

All that soul-stealing from his streams are finally paying off.

 

[Idon]

Ganondorf Grand Finals...

What timeline am I living in right now?

 

[blackghost]

I do agree that Bayo was -severely- undertuned in this game (her smashes are atrocius + everything that has been said in previous posts), but please try to avoid being overly pessimistic and biased, it takes away some credibility even if the overall points are correct...
Plus I find it hard to believe her to be bottom5 material still, I think she falls more into the "Sheik" category, aka a characters with usable tools (even if some of her moves get labeled as ""dysfunctional"") but that has to be always on point to win.
(also, I think she could do good in some matchup by playing super campy, a thing which I've never seen being done by her main players in this game, she has ok mobility thanks to her specials + bullet arts and neutralB to force approaches)

bayonetta cannot force you to approach. bullet climax has no range use vs onstage opponents unless its lylat (which everyone should now to ban vs her by now. its common knowledge). Bullet arts has a lot of lag as well and bullet arts has no hitstun so im confused how bayo is gonna force you to approach. if you get bayo to shield her fastest OoS option other than a jump is witch twist which is frame 6.
she cannot ledge camp due to both game mechanics and her having no ledge snap option from beneath a ledge.
she cannot run away with her specials because she has massive recovery frames on them. and bayo has never been very fast on the gorund or have good airpeed. so im going to need some clarification on what you mean for bayo to force anything.

 

[KakuCP9]

Welp, back to reality.
Marss forced Nairo to go Palu.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think the discussion should boil down less to "Palutena is actually good" which was fairly obvious, and more "let's dispel the notion that good characters are in need of secondaries".

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Bayonetta is severely overrated. Her neutral is awful, her combo game gets worse and worse the more you understand about the matchup, she has an easier time comboing super heavys but she cannot kill them until 170+%, etc etc.

Her biggest thing is racking up percent, but she can't exactly do that as well anymore. She gets outclassed by characters who do it better, and her strings are always really risky due to the overwhelming threat of *landing*.

Offstage she does good, but using her offstage requires a metric **** ton of skill. For example with most characters, if you hit someone with a Nair offstage they tend to die. If you hit someone with Bayonetta's Nair, Uair, or Fair, chances are they aren't dead unless you carry yourself to the blastzone with them.

You have to memorize a 3 frame window to combo and recover, but at the same time your combos aren't good enough. You have alot of them, but they are all super situational, and unless you are up against ROB (the perfect combination of not heavy enough + big), you aren't going to reliably rack up percent.

And if you look at her damage output as decent, then everything else just falls apart. Worst non-Sheik killpower, formulaic recovery due to Up-B being gimpable, terrible frame data (frame 9 jab, frame 6 OoS that doesn't hit smol boys, 42 frame landing lag from 2 Witch Twists and an airdodge), zero shield pressure, awful throws, zero disjoints outside of smashes, situational projectile, worst counter in the game **by far**, disjointed smashes that clank with jabs, aerials that don't kill at 200%, no killing tilts, no kill move before frame 11, quickest move is frame 6 and is her **up B**, Bat within isn't directional, and one of the lightest characters in the game

I should mention that Bayonetta's Up B alone gives her 19 frames of landing lag. ABK gives her 20. WT to ABK is 25. 2 ABKs is 30. 2 WTs is 32. ABK to DABK is 40. WT, ABK, WT, ABK is 42.

Mod edit: merged a double post. - Werekill

 

[The_Bookworm]

Congrats Marss for winning Collision!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Congrats Marss for winning Collision!

So a solo ZSS won a pretty freaking stacked competition. (Disreagarsing the controversy with the whole redoing a match with Wishes)

I dunno ZSS may still be pretty good overall I think. High-tier material maybe

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol, Nairo is trending on Twitter for Canada at least.

And while its pretty cool to see solo ZSS win... I wouldn't necessarily call the tournament stacked. Large? Absolutely. Stacked? Eeeeeh there's a lot of names I don't recognize in the top 32 or barely recognize. He wasn't the only pro to show up or anything like that, but its but only top 8/12 had what I would consider some of the best of the best for Ultimate.

 

[Frihetsanka]

MkLeo claims Lucina is overrated:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He makes some good points, and if people start parrying more it's going to be even harder for her to play neutral.

 

[KakuCP9]

What a load of crap. That ***** has long and quick tilts, superb aerials coupled with respectable mobility she can use to dictate the pace of the match and a busted out of shield option to get out pressure should anyone attempt to break into her zone. She doesn't need to rely on her aerials since she can beat anyone on the ground bar Wolf so the notion of Lucina falling out because she's 'basic' or that people can parry her is laughable. Marth is on par with her for the same reasons, but people are trying force them into a aggro playstyle when they have tools to zone and play defense in a way very few of the cast are capable of which is why people think they're weaker than they are (at least when it comes to Marth).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

MkLeo claims Lucina is overrated:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He makes some good points, and if people start parrying more it's going to be even harder for her to play neutral.

Tch.. Is MKLeo going to attempt to downplay every character he mains? Is he going to say Greninja is overated if he does intend to main next and starts winning?.

Also as we have seen with Wolf and Palu. Being "basic" or having a generally linear gameplan in not really that terrible a thing at all if said gameplan is strong and opressive enough

 

[|RK|]

MkLeo claims Lucina is overrated:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He makes some good points, and if people start parrying more it's going to be even harder for her to play neutral.

Said it elsewhere, but I think that just because Leo is prolly right doesn't make Lucina bad. Pick a top tier you CAN'T say bad things about, tbh. It's how this game is made.

 

[Sean²]

Why in the world would you not camp Ganondorf as Fox

Not everyone has the same amount of patience as Mew2king or Hbox.

 

[Lore]

Lmao, Mkleo has been getting a bit ridiculous lately with downplaying every character he plays. Being humble is one thing, but come on.

 

[ZephyrZ]

He makes some good points, and if people start parrying more it's going to be even harder for her to play neutral.

This isn't about Lucy in particular, I do think we're sometimes overrating how much parrying is going to change things up. It'll be rewarding to master for sure, but I don't think it's going to put currently good options down by much. I don't see it being a massive game changer.

Parrying in close to mid range is hard, if not impossible, to do purely on reaction. You'll have to download your opponent's habits and timing in order to do it with confidence. It's far too risky otherwise as if you mess it up, you're basically giving your opponent a free hit if you do. This is especially true against someone like Ike who can get super rewarding combos of his Nair.

Besides, there's always the counterplay of mixing up your timing a little bit, and if your character has two or more moves that are safe on shield or has the ability to cross shields up then all the better.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I don’t think he is saying she is bad. He used to say she was top 3 and now he doesn’t think so any more. But definitely still thinks she is top 10. I don’t think that it’s *that* out there.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

What are you trying to establish here?

It seems to me that the developers made sure Bayo could never end up in top tier because the community made it clear they didn't want to deal with Bayo anymore. I imagine that, even though smash players are used to this stuff, Nintendo takes booing very seriously. Especially if it is at E3 and they are showing off their new blockbuster game.

I don't mean to imply much beyond this, though.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Said it elsewhere, but I think that just because Leo is prolly right doesn't make Lucina bad. Pick a top tier you CAN'T say bad things about, tbh. It's how this game is made.

To be honest top players have fault in this, in social media you see often top players complaining about other top tiers that aren't theirs, but the moment their character is in the spotlight they began to downplay them because they are really scared of patches and they don't want the dev team to notice them, combining with the fact that the top tiers are really tame so a few nerfs can make a top tier too weak for them and their grind on them can be obsolete, so this is their only option.

 

[Captain Sa10]

Just because a character is “basic” doesn’t make them ineffective (parrying is, and I think will always be, similar to 3rd strike with learning to parry specific things but not everything).

If being “basic” and having no heavy mixups were true to being “overrated” then we’d all be playing mixup characters.

Hell that doesn’t even make sense; not in any fighting game for that matter. Usually it’s the most basic of crap that stays top 10 or higher in most fighting games lol

 

[TimG57867]

The Nario vs. Light set where he whipped out the Ganondorf is already on Youtube:

Matchup seemed to go about how you'd expect in this game: with his incredible speed, juggle capabilities, burst options, and generally stronger frame data Fox controls neutral. Light was able to whiff punish a majority of Nairo's missed moves and used those openings along with general rushdown to combo Ganondorf hard and juggle him heavily while trapping him well on ledge.

But Ganondorf's moves literally doing 3x what many Fox's does blow for blow and his weight let Nairo hang in their until he could finally get that occasional neutral win. And while the conversions were generally 2-3 piece combos and strings, that was all that was needed to basically even things up, particularly against light old Fox. And almost every time Nairo had Light off stage, that Fox was as good as dead.

And that final stock in particular really highlights what a boon his new Sword smashes are. The greater and disjointed reach on them makes it all the likelier for your foe to be caught unawares by them. And they do so much percent and knockback that even if they don't kill outright, they'll have your opponent into a rather awful position in disadvantage that Ganon can easily capitalize on. Light was just at 40%, but that out of left field rev F-Smash tacked a clean 30 on him and sent him careening off stage into such an exploitable position.

Quite hype to finally see Nairo whip out the Demon King in bracket and really hope to see more. Ganondorf's always been the "gets pummeled most of the match but needs just 3 taps to win" character. But the direct changes he got as well as shields being weaker and edgeguarding being so much more rewarding has made plying his trade the most feasible it's been since probably Melee.

 

[Rizen]

MkLeo claims Lucina is overrated:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He makes some good points, and if people start parrying more it's going to be even harder for her to play neutral.

Parrying's hard, much harder than perfect shielding. I thought people would get good at it but you have to make a read in many CQC cases.

HOLY ****, NAIRO PULLED OUT HIS GANONDORF AND WON A MATCH.

EDIT: TWO OF EM.

EDIT:
REVERSE 3-0 WITH GANONDORF.

This ties into what I was saying about the difficulty of being consistent with so many MUs to learn. I was playing vs an Olimar; he won the first game and I won the second. For the 3rd he pulled out Zelda. I had never played the MU and she ended up being more effective than the Olimar I had adapted to. Uncommon MUs can really throw a wrench in the works (not that Ganon's uncommon but at a top level maybe). Expect this kind of upset on occasion.

 

[Shaya]

If you're using a character who doesn't obliterate ganondorf in neutral by virtue of a simple and effective keep-him-out tool, you're dealing with a monster that has like 1/3rd to 50% more range than you do if not more, similar frame data to the humanites/swordies (outranges swordies noticeably too - although swords are one of the best way to deal with him imo), does 2x the damage per hit and KOs you at about 1/3rd the % most chars would.

If you've seen my rant about how good zero suit is thanks to her new forward air, then let it be known that ganondorf's neutral air is essentially a hyper-steroids version of it.

"camping him" is all well and good but if you're attempting to do so through mobility and jumps rather than something zoning like ivysaur's razor leaf/wolf blaster or very keen reactions with a swordie, the threat range and the hilarity that is your landing being called out by wizard foot/dash attack which are difficult to punish on block can put any character to the slaughter in a heart beat.

Not saying he has some match up advantage against the likes of Fox, but the lack of something silly like Wolf's dash attack to give free on shield pressure that can't be retaliated against reliably, and the lack of off stage tools to end ganon's life when the opportunity presents itself, doesn't bode well for our favourite fluffy spacey.

Very keen to see Ganondorf used more by Nairo.
Should definitely NOT be solo viable though, let's not kid anyone or ourselves.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

But if anyone wants to. Lets talk, does have potential despite being quite "different" from her Smash 4 self for lack of a better explination at the moment. Marss impressive showing at Colission today has to do with her still being strong, or that Marss just plays like a total nut and it happned to pay off for him in full for him this instance. Maybe its a little of both lol. Either way I can see her maybe breaking into high-tier even if its at the lower end of it.

I an hardly an expert. But in the transition , she is kinda in the same situation as with how different they now play only she may work just a wee bit better going though the traniston to this game and all its differences form Smash 4

 

[Shaya]

Zero Suits the same character except she has a rising aerial option now (a pure boon to her toolkit), and doesn't (nor cannot) crutch on grab follow ups anymore, although if you're trying to be smart with her you're probably grabbing just as much, if not more in this game than S4 (as it's less risky and more "guaranteed" opportunities present themselves such as the weaker air dodges).

Feel free to search my older posts in this thread about ZSS (pretty sure I always say 'zero suit').
She has what it takes to be an arguable top tier.
She's a small QoL buff or two from being a lot more enjoyable experience for her players without a significant power boon (i.e. nair/bair hitbox durations) and thus being harder to argue she's not top tier (although still probably a reasonably okay/balanced one: her most rewarding tools still either have high start up or aren't safe).

No inherent losing match ups. What shuts her down or inhibits her?
Only ever working harder against chars with amazing numbers (whom everyone complains about and MUs are generally still all volatile for) or difficulty air vs air, like against Pacman (still my sleeper top tier pick) or Palutena.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Zero Suits the same character except she has a rising aerial option now (a pure boon to her toolkit), and doesn't (nor cannot) crutch on grab follow ups anymore, although if you're trying to be smart with her you're probably grabbing just as much, if not more in this game than S4 (as it's less risky and more "guaranteed" opportunities present themselves such as the weaker air dodges).

Feel free to search my older posts in this thread about ZSS (pretty sure I always say 'zero suit').
She has what it takes to be an arguable top tier.
She's a small QoL buff or two from being a lot more enjoyable experience for her players without a significant power boon (i.e. nair/bair hitbox durations) and thus being harder to argue she's not top tier (although still probably a reasonably okay/balanced one: her most rewarding tools still either have high start up or aren't safe).

No inherent losing match ups. What shuts her down or inhibits her?
Only ever working harder against chars with amazing numbers (whom everyone complains about and MUs are generally still all volatile for) or difficulty air vs air, like against Pacman (still my sleeper top tier pick) or Palutena.

Yea.. She lost her old Smash 4 Jank and clutch factor in exchange for a generally overall improved kit and gaining a working neutral game. How that will work out for her in the long run we will have to see but so far she can still do well in this game given the right effort and dedication invested in her

 

[Diddy Kong]

MkLeo claims Lucina is overrated:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He makes some good points, and if people start parrying more it's going to be even harder for her to play neutral.

This is why I stated Diddy beats her.

In general, linear characters are gonna fall off. Because it will become way to easy to predict them.

Also, ZSS loses to Diddy

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

This is why I stated Diddy beats her.

In general, linear characters are gonna fall off. Because it will become way to easy to predict them.

Also, ZSS loses to Diddy

Lucina has arguebly the best tools in the game. Great range, strings, kill options, recovery, good enough throws, etc.

Diddy has a decently sad recovery V's the Fair to end all Fairs

Tch.. Is MKLeo going to attempt to downplay every character he mains? Is he going to say Greninja is overated if he does intend to main next and starts winning?.

Also as we have seen with Wolf and Palu. Being "basic" or having a generally linear gameplan in not really that terrible a thing at all if said gameplan is strong and opressive enough

Reminds me of Leffen saying Squirtle is F tier

 

[Rizen]

's top 5 probably. She's linear but that's because her option coverage is so good. In 6-8 frames she can hit anywhere in a large circle around her. Only a few characters have zoning that good and fast. She's great at controlling space and has the power to get good reward on hit. Especially because her ease of use makes her a good secondary, I don't see Lucina falling off.

 

[Lore]

Yeah Lucina is a character that rewards good fundamentals with a simple-but-powerful character. I agree Rizen; I doubt she will fall off.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I don't have much experience with Pit, so I have a question.

Does Pit's projectile just not bring enough to the table compared to Lucina?

It's not even that it's that Pit doesn't really stand out at all compared to the rest of the cast. His moves KO at reasonable percents but not extremely early, he has good low percent combos and combo throws, he has decent range but not as much as characters like Bowser or Lucina, his speed is pretty average, and he has multiple jumps but a bit of a predictable recovery and slow air speed. His biggest strength is his edgeguarding which is very good because of arrow and becuase his n-air and f-air are multihits that launch horizontally. As a side note: Dark Pit lacks the control of Pit's arrows but his deal more knockback while moving at a faster speed and electroshock arm kills stupidly early on lightweights and middle weights so his edgeguarding is pretty good too.

 

[Lore]

It sounds like he's Mario without the dunk or strong smashes, then. Ouch.

 

[AxelVDP]

bayonetta cannot force you to approach.
[...]
so im going to need some clarification on what you mean for bayo to force anything.

By having the % lead. Camping does not necessarily mean spamming projectiles lol. Get the % lead then jump around (this includes using your burst mobility options too) forcing the opponent to commit to actions, stuff out short hops with bullet climax, tack on dammage with bullet arts if the opponent tries to spam projectiles (also bullet arts are not counted as projectiles iirc so you can't reflect them or clank them). An effective strategy that smash players usually hate.
Bayo's biggest problem is closing out stocks, not racking dmg.
Obviously this gameplan does not work against characters with good mobility and/or good hitboxes to contest you (be it projectiles or disjoints)

Taking as an example the recently posted "agility rankings"

[...]
(You can see the spreadsheet with calculations here)

View attachment 198479

I'd argue she can outmaneuver from like, ROB downwards (a lot of characters should be excluded because they have the aformentioned 'hitboxes' and/or extra mobility options not taken into consideration to contest this) (and yes, she's ranked 36th, but this does not take into account specials, stalling moves, fastfalling moves, hurtboxes and so on, which would make her rank higher)
I'm not arguing she's a good character, just saying you're probably overly pessimistic

 

[Avokha]

So something I've been thinking about recently:
vs.

Or more specifically, the nature of their sword inconsistencies. Marth having a weak sword everywhere, and at all times, except for the tip, where most of his kill power is held, but he lacks any consistent setups into said tip, forcing marth to fish for openings that also require exact spacing to capitalize on. With Robin, you get 7-8 swings, hit or miss, of high damage, range, and killpower aerials and smashes with reliable setups into them, and then (up to) 10 seconds of weak aerials and smashes with virtually no killpower, less damage, and less range.

Which is the preferable inconsistency to possess I wonder?

EDIT: I suppose Roy would also apply for marth sword inconsistencies, only inverted, although I dont know if he has reliable setups for his sweetspots, unlike marth who does not.

 

[NotLiquid]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There's some nugget of truth to this.

People really hate sword characters not necessarily because they're overbearing, but because they're the best characters at pressuring you to turn your brain off and do something really stupid.

For example, sword characters, the Marthcina variety in particular, are perhaps the best characters at teaching you to not aggressively land. Tired of getting swept up? Think you're gonna get back at 'em with an FAir while recovering? Sorry, you just ate an FSmash or an OoS Dolphin Slash. Think you're gonna go on and get up on ledge? Whoops, you probably got swept up by a dancing blade, and worst case scenario you ate another FSmash. And lord have mercy on you if you think you can do a get-up shield once that soul-wracking sound of them charging their shield breaker is happening. The character is ace at tilting you with multiple little microplays that's gonna send you over the edge and leave an opening to seal a stock.

Lucina is really good, but half of the reason as to why is basic intimidation tactics. It's the same reason Ganondorf still suckers in so many people in 2019 (especially apt now that he too has a sword), but with exchanging raw power for some well appreciated speed that gives her an overt advantage in a game where mobility is king. Lucina's got a laundry list of options available but the most effective ones come from the opponent initiating the approach. If she has to make the first move, her options are generally a bit more predictable. Her disadvantage state is a total mixed bag as such.

Outside of those statistics I can see why Leo believes Lucina might be overrated by the crowd. He's done tremendous work with the character but by that same token he's done a lot of tremendous work with Ike, who we know has a share of flaws people like to forget exists. Also, outside of MKLeo - who is only using her as a secondary - we don't really see a lot of Lucina mains in any of the stacked tournaments. Lucina does really well in regionals, granted, but between Collision 2019, Frostbite 2019, Genesis 6 and Glitch 6, the only dedicated Lucina main that has shown up in all of Top 64 is Mr E. Sure, Nairo and MKLeo secondary the character, but Nairo saw better success mainly using Palutena throughout Collision (of note is how Leffen has said Nairo should be committing to maining her more rather than trying to secondary Lucina), while MKLeo only uses Lucina during select matches. And MKLeo is, well, MKLeo.

Mind you, all of this is, of course, playing devil's advocate. I can absolutely buy the argument that Lucina is Top 5, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless because I can't even disagree with Leo that, compared to other characters on the roster, Lucina is one of the way more basic characters in terms of game plan. She's great at teaching you the importance of why autopiloting is bad.

EDIT: While we're on the note of Lucina, MuteAce has voiced his agreement with Leo - though he goes as far to say that he doesn't even consider her a top 10 character (narrowly missing out).

 

[N8than]

I feel like is definitely a high tier, and most likely in the top 25-30 range. She might go up on tier lists as time goes on, but I do think that she is a solidly good character regardless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she have some poor matchups against short characters like ,, and ? Also does she have any good matchups versus top tiers?

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

By having the % lead. Camping does not necessarily mean spamming projectiles lol. Get the % lead then jump around (this includes using your burst mobility options too) forcing the opponent to commit to actions, stuff out short hops with bullet climax, tack on dammage with bullet arts if the opponent tries to spam projectiles (also bullet arts are not counted as projectiles iirc so you can't reflect them or clank them). An effective strategy that smash players usually hate.
Bayo's biggest problem is closing out stocks, not racking dmg.
Obviously this gameplan does not work against characters with good mobility and/or good hitboxes to contest you (be it projectiles or disjoints)

Taking as an example the recently posted "agility rankings"


I'd argue she can outmaneuver from like, ROB downwards (a lot of characters should be excluded because they have the aformentioned 'hitboxes' and/or extra mobility options not taken into consideration to contest this) (and yes, she's ranked 36th, but this does not take into account specials, stalling moves, fastfalling moves, hurtboxes and so on, which would make her rank higher)
I'm not arguing she's a good character, just saying you're probably overly pessimistic

You have to gain the percent lead to have a percent lead, and with Bayonetta's neutral that isn't relatively easy as she has no real approach options. You either shield when she is at a distance and spotdodge her grabs.

I'd argue that your plan for the character constitutes stalling in a way. If the only way to play a character is to force the opponent to lose the neutral, then your character is pretty terrible.

And her percent racking ability is, again, decent. She can do a stupid good combo with a read, but she has nothing more than insane mix-ups that you can airdodge out of. Once you hit 100% her combos fall apart and you struggle to land more than 2 hits at a time. Her tilts stop working due to their terrible hitboxes, her smashes suck ass, her edgeguarding requires you to be in the blastzone, her kill throw is wicked late, etc. She can struggle to get you to a high percent if you have experience, and once you get there you have to go further to close a stock.

In the video Tamim vs that one ROB in tournament, Tamim got Fair 123 above the blastzone at 110% and it didn't kill. He got Fair 123 decently early in the far right blastzone and he SD'd and ROB lived.

 

[blackghost]

By having the % lead. Camping does not necessarily mean spamming projectiles lol. Get the % lead then jump around (this includes using your burst mobility options too) forcing the opponent to commit to actions, stuff out short hops with bullet climax, tack on dammage with bullet arts if the opponent tries to spam projectiles (also bullet arts are not counted as projectiles iirc so you can't reflect them or clank them). An effective strategy that smash players usually hate.
Bayo's biggest problem is closing out stocks, not racking dmg.
Obviously this gameplan does not work against characters with good mobility and/or good hitboxes to contest you (be it projectiles or disjoints)

Taking as an example the recently posted "agility rankings"


I'd argue she can outmaneuver from like, ROB downwards (a lot of characters should be excluded because they have the aformentioned 'hitboxes' and/or extra mobility options not taken into consideration to contest this) (and yes, she's ranked 36th, but this does not take into account specials, stalling moves, fastfalling moves, hurtboxes and so on, which would make her rank higher)
I'm not arguing she's a good character, just saying you're probably overly pessimistic

i think im being realistic with what she is.
the agility rankings was a good concept but its heavily incomplete. Bayo has no edge cancels, has massive RCO lag upon using her mobility specials, and has no b reverses for mobility purposes. A characters agility is based on more than just frame data and speed. she fights ROB well not because of his lack of mobility but because his mobility is low and his size is great and unlike bowser and other heavies doesnt have an armor innate ability or armored move(s). But the main reason bayo fights ROB well is the top. he cannot use it. Even with witch being frame nine with little reward with the top its easy to trigger.

 

[Foie]

You have to gain the percent lead to have a percent lead, and with Bayonetta's neutral that isn't relatively easy as she has no real approach options. You either shield when she is at a distance and spotdodge her grabs.

I'd argue that your plan for the character constitutes stalling in a way. If the only way to play a character is to force the opponent to lose the neutral, then your character is pretty terrible.

And her percent racking ability is, again, decent. She can do a stupid good combo with a read, but she has nothing more than insane mix-ups that you can airdodge out of. Once you hit 100% her combos fall apart and you struggle to land more than 2 hits at a time. Her tilts stop working due to their terrible hitboxes, her smashes suck ***, her edgeguarding requires you to be in the blastzone, her kill throw is wicked late, etc. She can struggle to get you to a high percent if you have experience, and once you get there you have to go further to close a stock.

In the video Tamim vs that one ROB in tournament, Tamim got Fair 123 above the blastzone at 110% and it didn't kill. He got Fair 123 decently early in the far right blastzone and he SD'd and ROB lived.

Sounds like post-melee Jigglypuff actually: a sluggish bait and punish character that doesn't get enough reward on the punish, and doesn't have the tools (ie. projectiles) to bait.

Definitely a recipe for low tier.

On the topic of Bayonetta, some people here think she's overrated... but I haven't seen a single person rank her highly. Nobody is singing her praise. I'd say she's pretty accurately perceived, mid-tier at best.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Re: Nairo's Ganondorf, I'm a bit late to the party but I think it serves as solid evidence of something I've believed for a while now: You can't afford to get careless against superheavies. Even if you have a winning matchup, their raw damage-per-hit means you only have to **** up once and suddenly it's an even game again.

I don't think this is exactly a hot take or anything, or even a lukewarm take, but it's something I needed to say.

Re: Pit being a complete milquetoast of a character, IIRC he does have a spike (dair). Dunno how hard it is to land, though.