Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Emblem Lord]

What it you're the one saying something ridiculous?

Tell me what and why so I can grow as a human being.

What is the point of existing if one does not continue to evolve?

 

[Shaya]

This topic of conversation is something I feel genuinely matters, and the place for it being somewhere with a larger than 200 character limit is vital to it going 'better' than it has been.

If someone wants to make a topic about it (in this subsection) I'll let it fly, or it may get moved to a more appropriate place sometime after.
But this thread is meant to be as pure to metagame discourse as possible.

The modern age of mass-presumption of people's tones, intentions or prejudices is prevalent; giving others the benefit of the doubt before having an empathy-fueled emotional response is difficult - but trying to - is likely necessary to get our scene (if not the world) back on a saner track.

... perhaps I should instead just move the relevant posts to a new topic.... will think about it, big headache right now.

 

[NairWizard]

New topic: name the top/high tier that you secretly think is trash, and explain why, referencing only options, spacing blind spots, and relevant matchups, not just vague blanket phrases like "is too basic" or "can't kill."

 

[Rizen]

Anyway, is a hard character to get a handle on because hardly anyone plays him. He's definitely better than his occasional results and (IMO) probably high tier but it's hard to say precisely how good. I don't expect a surge of TLs anytime soon either. He'll forever be shrouded in fog on the edge of interest.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

New topic: name the top/high tier that you secretly think is trash, and explain why, referencing only options, spacing blind spots, and relevant matchups, not just vague blanket phrases like "is too basic" or "can't kill."

Well right now I do not think any currently thought-of Top or High tier is actually "trash" so to speak, but I do think some may fall of a bit, but still not be terrible.
Is one example , and I was giving him a benfit of a doubt at the start. I may think may fall to mid-mid-high tier status.Yeah it seems that any of his other buffs or Qol improvements he got in ultimate cannot make up for losing his Sheild-cancelable Spin-dash which was the definitive tool of his meta in Smash 4. But hey maybe his mains have yet to really adapt yet and play him to his fullest.
But right now as i see it, once it turns out he actually needs to approach and play he style he was intended to be his weakness become a bit more apparent such as slight struggles vs swords and big disjoints and lacking any consistent kill confrims or strong kill moves to such as simialr speedy rushdown style

 

[Browny]

New topic: name the top/high tier that you secretly think is trash, and explain why, referencing only options, spacing blind spots, and relevant matchups, not just vague blanket phrases like "is too basic" or "can't kill."

Inkling. Its not trash, but it aint top tier. It's carried by top players using them. It has 30% strings which are nice... peach and pichu can do 70%. Its throws are bad and once people learn the uthrow % ranges more, they will simply avoid getting grabbed while in that range.

Its good at pretty much everything, but it doesnt have overly oppressive traits that it can rely on to stomp everyone, its too honest for its own good. Roller is the only 'dishonest' thing about it and given how people are learning how to dodge it more and more, its losing that ability.

It does not deserve a spot in top tier along with Peach, Olimar, Pichu, Wario and Wolf. Arguably Lucina. Its in the next tier down with palutena, ike, fox etc.

 

[Y2Kay]

I am not targeting anyone when I say this.


I feel that a lot of posts in this thread mainly just dunk on easily disagreeable opinions for likes. If there are no easily disagreeable opinions at the time, people simply misconstrue points. Roasting people for bad opinions that nobody had. For example, look what happened to Emblem Lord just now.

This thread isn’t that intellectually stimulating imo because everyone seems too afraid to be wrong. If you got a crazy idea, try your best to back it up with evidence, and if you end up being wrong, oh well.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Anyway, is a hard character to get a handle on because hardly anyone plays him. He's definitely better than his occasional results and (IMO) probably high tier but it's hard to say precisely how good. I don't expect a surge of TLs anytime soon either. He'll forever be shrouded in fog on the edge of interest.

I think tlink down fall will be the difference in his moveset between the other links. Their moveset while similar is a bit different the frame data is pretty similar but I think I prefer Ylink fair nair and bair dtilt and uair to tlinks. Not only that but his arrow are prob the worse of the three. I compare the links because if I think highly of the two but tlink deviates from the strength of the two then I'm not really sold on him. I believe his combo game is more limited than the other two which makes him a bit weaker. So he's prob mid tier or even lower I don't think his mobility makes up for a difference in moveset. So my question is what does toon link have that the others dont and is that enough for him to be rated in high regard.

 

[Browny]

This thread isn’t that intellectually stimulating imo because everyone seems too afraid to be wrong. If you got a crazy idea, try your best to back it up with evidence, and if you end up being wrong, oh well.

Welcome to the internet, where the best substitute for ones own intelligence is to copy+paste what top players say, that way you can further portray yourself as intelligent by saying 'You think you know more than top players' when someone disagrees with you.

The amount of players releasing tier lists that are basically the same is really tiring as well. No one wants to stray too far from the pack except Leffen really but sometimes you really gotta wonder if his opinions are legitimate, trolling, or he is completely unaware of what certain characters are capable of. Pac Man is the biggest example.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Anyway, is a hard character to get a handle on because hardly anyone plays him. He's definitely better than his occasional results and (IMO) probably high tier but it's hard to say precisely how good. I don't expect a surge of TLs anytime soon either. He'll forever be shrouded in fog on the edge of interest.

Funny enough I feel the same way about right now and wow. I thought I would NEVER say that. He may be high tier seems to have the things needed to be high tier at least, but no one really plays him anymore so it is really hard to tell where he stands overall. It kinda makes sense in a way how Cloud is kinda in the fog or on the fringes of thought. I mean if you looking for a dependable fairly easy to use and main/pocket that you can do well with mostly on solid fundamentals. Well say "hello" to you. They have basically taken that identity from him this game.

 

[Heracr055]

Inkling. Its not trash, but it aint top tier. It's carried by top players using them. It has 30% strings which are nice... peach and pichu can do 70%. Its throws are bad and once people learn the uthrow % ranges more, they will simply avoid getting grabbed while in that range.

Its good at pretty much everything, but it doesnt have overly oppressive traits that it can rely on to stomp everyone, its too honest for its own good. Roller is the only 'dishonest' thing about it and given how people are learning how to dodge it more and more, its losing that ability.

It does not deserve a spot in top tier along with Peach, Olimar, Pichu, Wario and Wolf. Arguably Lucina. Its in the next tier down with palutena, ike, fox etc.

I disagree with Inkling being outside of top tier. There aren't that many top players using the character as far as I know (Cosmos and Armada are the most prominent ones I can think of at the moment), so the "carried by top players" statement just doesn't apply. Secondly, one of Inklings' greatest tools is her movement, which assists her offense, defense and mixup game. I still think that people can get more creative with her arsenal as well (splat bombs and neutral B being prome candidates for that). Ink will always make it to where a moment of opportunity can net huge damage for the character. Lastly, Inkling players might find that their edgeguard game is one of the best and go down for kills (we saw shades of this in Armada's gameplay at Summit). Anyways, this is what I feel about the char and time will tell. Edit: the Inklings have a good recovery game that can be mixed up and keep them around for a while.

For a different take: Lucas is a character who I feel does not belong in high tier. He doesn't necessarily have the best tools to play his camping game in PK Fire and PK Freeze. In addition, he doesn't do that well approaching either (PK Fire and zair seem like the best options, the occasional forward air is alright too). He doesn't really have a competent Bair like most characters outside of spikes (which can present a blind offensive spot behing him that a decently ranged bair such as Ness' could've covered). PK Freeze is only an issue if you get hit by it, which isn't that crazy to avoid. I just think he's a bit too "jack of all trades" to cut it with the other characters in this tier. I did my best to avoid Ness comparisons btw

 

[Crooked Crow]

Tell me what and why so I can grow as a human being.

What is the point of existing if one does not continue to evolve?

He really does talk like an anime protagonist. It's sort of impressive, really.

 

[PK Bash]

Lucas is pretty bad honestly.

It's been three and a half months and I still don't know how he is supposed to win.

You have here a character who relies on horizontal spacing but who covers a very limited plane roughly in line with the areas he can place his short hop forward air, which loosely lines up with where your PK Fires/zairs will end up being (obviously they go a little further).
In this game there are too many ways to play around that basically.

In 4, Lucas thrived on counterpoking because in that engine, everyone had bigger jumpsquats, more landing lag, and no directional airdodging (airdodging into the ground of course being very laggy anyway). He could easily zone/wall (jab!) and easily set up and get grabs for combos with the gameplan he had and the only way your opponent could (reliably, and universally - I'm skirting over flip kicks for now) absolve themselves of dealing with both at once was to use their double jump. Huge advantage for Lucas obviously.

Compare that to this game.

For one, everybody has more options to handle Lucas' zoning. Frame three jumpsquats let you easily move off his plane of operation I identified at the start of this post. Generally faster overall with less landing lag. Directional airdodging is another option to just tap out without having to double jump. PK Fire is pretty reactable, especially if you're coming at him from either the ground (PARRY) or a high-ish angle where he can't hit you. (I should mention up air has a much bigger hitbox this game and has decent combo potential, but doesn't really kill and in practice is not hugely threatening.) Zair is shorter. Lucas can actually DJC with zair (I know yesterday I said only special moves!) to give it more range but it is a ONE FRAME input and frankly what it gives you just isn't worth it.
Grabbing oos is also weaker, and this game just doesn't let you whiff grabs oos. You're giving them a free aerial.

But the trick with Lucas is working out what to do upon winning neutral, too.

Throw combos are gone and his two main combo starters (nair/dair) don't exactly coalesce with his wider moveset (two moves with very limited range, on a spacing character, and too small to punish much of anything spaced on Lucas' shield - you'll need encyclopaedic mu knowledge if that's ever your plan to know what you can and can't hit). PK Thunder is ok but it's really slow and less applicable than Ness'. PK Freeze is a scrub killer really, you shouldn't be getting hit by that unless you're caught slacking (very linear with a narrow AOE and limited timing mixups. Too easy to predict and move around). For edgeguarding, you're probably wanting to down smash, which is a strong option to be fair if you can establish the situation.

Up throw is still a very good kill throw.

But getting anything going is a lot of effort, dependent largely on the Lucas player's ability to keep constantly winning rock paper scissors and often only getting one hit for winning it. You cannot "fish" with this character. Combos are rare and pressuring people into making punishable errors is very hard. That last bit applies to neutral and advantage honestly.

His stuff just doesn't synergise well enough this game to handle the basic universal options everybody has. When a character is totally floored by just holding shield, in Ultimate where shields are supposed to be weaker, you should already know that character has got no future.

Matchup wise:
Olimar is bad, has always been bad, and will always be bad. Lucas is very precise as is without accounting for a tiny hurtbox that usually stays grounded and can throw pikmin at no risk to block PK Fires or just latch on and deal damage for you, racking up % that Lucas cannot catch up to.

Marth and all his friends can pressure pretty effortlessly. PK Fire can nick their hurtbox if it hits the sword though.

Fox, Pichu, Inkling and Wolf have too many angles of attack for Lucas to handle. Wolf has better leverage in midrange. All of this applies to Greninja as well.

Peach is ok til you get hit or she starts the shield pressure but with a turnip, she definitely has an edge in midrange.

I reckon he loses to Ness, having played it on both sides a number of times. Easy to break Lucas' zone without really committing much and pressure him with forward air and work from that basis.

I can't think of any high or top tier mus that I'd be confident to use him in. Snake's probably his best but that could only be even at best when Snake can parry into his (amply rewarding) tilts or dash attack very freely, and having little trouble putting Lucas in the corner, and indeed keeping him there. Magnet is very baitable. A lot of people look at PSI Magnets and go "omg Snake invalidated" but don't seem to appreciate how flexible Snake and his nades are, especially combined with other stuff he has. Good tool to have though don't get me wrong.

So yeah I'm not liking Lucas in this game. There are other things to be said about Lucas but I reckon I've probably had my fair share. You can probably tell that I think you're putting yourself at an objective large disadvantage if you pick him.

 

[NeonNote]

Fellow Peach/Daisy mains, who do you think are their best matchups (including those in higher tiers)?

 

[NotLiquid]

I'd say Inkling is a top tier character but at a semantics level it's irrespective of the notion that the Backroom generally goes by a lettered tier system. On those terms she'd likely be an A-tier character... but there really aren't that many S-tier candidates in Ultimate and usually the S-tier pool is never that big in Smash in general. At best you'll get a few "top of the top tiers", and I can only think of three, maybe four characters in Ultimate that can be considered a relatively notable cut above anyone below them (if an UBR tier list came out today, it's almost certain that Olimar, Peach, Wolf, possibly Pichu would cover the S-tier). Everyone underneath them have a pretty equal level of blindspots but within the top 10 it is definitely not by a disproportionate amount. Players like Tweek, Cosmos, Light, and Lea/Stroder have done enough work with their respective mains to prove that.

That said, Inkling having "only" 30% strings is definitely a misinformed statement. She can get way more damage off of strings than that. It's not easy to do so, but it ain't easy for Peach to get 70% strings either, a majority of her most devastating combos are very circumstantial. And Pichu? Depending on your character, BAir is possible to SDI out of, so people best learn their lightning loop counterplay before we go back to the narrow assumption that having good combos is the only thing that determines whether you're good. If it was ever so binary a case as "Peach can do 70% combos, therefore she is top tier", you'd think she'd be out there winning way more tournaments.

Anyway, as far as overrated top/high tiers, it's not the most fun discussion primarily because it does feel like a dunking contest in some aspects but I'm gonna say Link is a character that really hasn't impressed me as much as I expected he would. He has some cute tricks but he has an incredibly linear close quarters game that makes it easy to predict most of his options once you manage to circumvent his tools - which most of the top 10 are able to do either through mobility or an equal amount of mid-ranged pressure. Yes, up B is a really powerful out-of-shield attack, but it leaves Link incredibly vulnerable to the point that it's a gamble. He has great mid-range potential, no doubt, but with a game that has Snake in it, I'm not sure what Link offers that Snake just doesn't do better.

I was actually gonna say Young Link at first, but then I kinda realized several things that can be said about him also apply to his older incarnation - and oddly YL hasn't had as much of a comparable splash despite him being all the rage pre-release.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In all honesty, some characters might seem to be meant to be co-mained. The Chus for example, one is safe and one is explosively unsafe. I think it would be great if players as VoiD learns Pikachu, and ESAM learns Pichu. That would make them a stronger force to reckon with overall. Same with the likes of Chrom / Roy, Link / Young Link and maybe even Lucina / Marth. That this hasn't happened yet surprises me actually.

Also if I where to make a S Tier, I'd say it's .

 

[MG_3989]

So I see a lot of people leaving Lucina out of the top 5 lately and I don’t understand why. She lacks any clear weaknesses imo and is the pretty much the most well rounded character in the game (she doesn’t have a projectile but she doesn’t need one). Yeah she doesn’t have crazy combos like Peach and Pichu, or a projectile like Wolf’s laser, or Olimar’s upsmash and his capability to stone wall people and then flip a switch to aggro but she has Fsmash, dolphin slash, and a sword. I understand she doesn’t have the highest threshold out of the top tiers (it’s pretty damn high tho), but she’s also the safest and I would argue that makes her likely to be the most consistent. I don’t see how she’s left out of top 5 honestly

 

[The_Bookworm]

Is it just me (and it could be just me), or am I seeing a drop in ? Ever since VoiD's 2nd placement in Genesis 6, no one including VoiD himself has ever gotten that peak in results. No Pichu player got top 12 in Frostbite, and VoiD got 7th in Summit (and his wins mainly came from Melee players). Then Captain L released a video that Pichu back air OoS can be SDI'ed and avoided. VoiD himself is also considering using more secondaries in his matches.

Ironically, this all happened when ZeRo claimed that is the best in the game. Then again, ZeRo is the person who thought is the best character in SSB4 at one point.

 

[Roguewolf]

So what do you guys think of duck hunt in this game. Poor pooch doesn't ever get mentioned. Personally I think hes better in this game. Because he can actually kill But other than that kinda unchanged. Thoughts?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Is it just me (and it could be just me), or am I seeing a drop in ? Ever since VoiD's 2nd placement in Genesis 6, no one including VoiD himself has ever gotten that peak in results. No Pichu player got top 12 in Frostbite, and VoiD got 7th in Summit (and his wins mainly came from Melee players). Then Captain L released a video that Pichu back air OoS can be SDI'ed and avoided. VoiD himself is also considering using more secondaries in his matches.

Ironically, this all happened when ZeRo claimed that is the best in the game. Then again, ZeRo is the person who thought is the best character in SSB4 at one point.

Well I dont really consider Pichu quite reaches top 5. Top 10 area maybe. But I not sure she is falling of that bad

I kinda see how many pro players seem to be learning how to fight her better and capitialze on her weakness a bit more. I.e poor range and surprisingly not as fast and mobile as you would first think.

That is why Pichu may struggle with the "comsistent" FE swordies

 

[The_Bookworm]

So what do you guys think of duck hunt in this game. Poor pooch doesn't ever get mentioned. Personally I think hes better in this game. Because he can actually kill But other than that kinda unchanged. Thoughts?

While he is technically better, the game engine isn't really doing his playstyle too many favors. He is fortunately more fit to handle CQC than in SSB4 thanks to his buffs, he kind of has Lucas syndrome in which his moveset doesn't really stack up to the buffs over characters got. He is kind of outclassed by other zoning characters who got more noticeable buffs from SSB4 (i.e. Mega Man and Olimar).

I would say maybe mid tier. Probably at the lower end of mid tier, but nothing lower than that.

 

[NotLiquid]

Is it just me (and it could be just me), or am I seeing a drop in ? Ever since VoiD's 2nd placement in Genesis 6, no one including VoiD himself has ever gotten that peak in results. No Pichu player got top 12 in Frostbite, and VoiD got 7th in Summit (and his wins mainly came from Melee players). Then Captain L released a video that Pichu back air OoS can be SDI'ed and avoided. VoiD himself is also considering using more secondaries in his matches.

Ironically, this all happened when ZeRo claimed that is the best in the game. Then again, ZeRo is the person who thought is the best character in SSB4 at one point.

I'm really split on Pichu because on one hand yes, Pichu has a great set of buttons that all have applicability and are also deceptively strong, easy to score kills with, but on the other hand it's hard to ignore that this is one of those top 10 characters - sharing the dubious honor with Fox - that isn't allowed to make a single mistake. Even if you set aside the adequate mobility and stumpy range, Pichu being borderline ungimpable has never struck me as some major "wow" factor to the character because it only exists to compensate for how its weaknesses would be so much more blatant if it actually was gimpable, considering it dies about 30-40% earlier to errant hits than any other character would.

Granted, again those explosive options are so good that it may be possible to overlook its weaknesses. But at the same time Smash players have a very regular tendency to consider the maximum documented exchange as the broad strokes of a character's overall top competitive worth while generally looking aside whether or not consistency can be applicable to it. Pichu to me doesn't feel like it's consistent enough compared to much of the cast's best, which is why I'm so hesitant to say whether it qualifies as top 5. It makes a strong case for itself when it's firing on all cylinders, but we've seen VoiD when he's inconsistent, and when that happens, Pichu shatters - pretty violently might I add.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So I see a lot of people leaving Lucina out of the top 5 lately and I don’t understand why. She lacks any clear weaknesses imo and is the pretty much the most well rounded character in the game (she doesn’t have a projectile but she doesn’t need one). Yeah she doesn’t have crazy combos like Peach and Pichu, or a projectile like Wolf’s laser, or Olimar’s upsmash and his capability to stone wall people and then flip a switch to aggro but she has Fsmash, dolphin slash, and a sword. I understand she doesn’t have the highest threshold out of the top tiers (it’s pretty damn high tho), but she’s also the safest and I would argue that makes her likely to be the most consistent. I don’t see how she’s left out of top 5 honestly

Being well-rounded doesn't necessarily mean top 5, and she does have some weaknesses (Greninja being a hard MU comes to mind). Anyway, let's check at characters based on how likely they are to be top 5:

Almost guaranteed right now: Peach/Daisy, Wolf.
Nearly guaranteed: Olimar
High probability: Fox, Pichu
Decent probability: Pikachu, Lucina, Greninja, Inkling, Wario, Palutena, Snake
Could be up there due to potential: Chrom, Roy, Shulk, Pokémon Trainer

So... Even if we count Peach and Daisy as one (which I think we should), we only really have two spots left for top 5. I'm going to talk a little about Fox, Pichu, and Pikachu now.

Fox: I do think he's top 5, even if we disregard results Fox has very few bad MUs (as far as I know), great explosiveness, a very solid kill confirm in nair to up-smash, oppressive advantage state, and great mobility. This character seems stronger than Lucina to me.

Pichu: I could go either way with Pichu. Pichu has greater flaws and greater strengths than Lucina, so it's possible that he's going to lose more MUs and fall off. For the time being he seems stronger, but time will tell, I suppose.

Pikachu: Remember pre-release when people, even ZeRo, thought Pikachu was going to be one of the best characters? What happened? I'm not quite sure, the character still seems really, really, really good to me, and while he might not be top 5, he's probably fairly close to it, and (if we are to believe ESAM) his MU spread is very balanced. What are Pikachu's greatest flaws? I suppose being light and sometimes struggling to kill, but he's noticeably heavier than Pichu, not much larger, and nair leads to down-smash and up-smash, and he can also f-smash or up-smash raw to kill, or edgeguard (or thunder), so his kill potential isn't that bad. He can also camp really well, unlike Pichu.

Greninja or Inkling could potentially be top 5 as well. Lucina might fall over time since she probably doesn't have all that much more left to discover while other characters might have tricks not yet discovered (Inkling, being a newcomer, might have a lot of hidden potential). Shulk seems really strong as well and could potentially be top 5, and I've seen a few top players even place him around that area. I wonder if we'll see any Shulk player start getting great results in majors?

Ironically, this all happened when ZeRo claimed that is the best in the game. Then again, ZeRo is the person who thought is the best character in SSB4 at one point.

ZeRo has a tendency to claim that characters are #1 even if he doesn't fully understand the character. If you're knowledgeable about Pichu and watch his video you'll see that he has some gaps in knowledge when it comes to Pichu (and other characters as well, such as Corrin).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Frozen 2-1 Cosmos Cosmos in an upset. But a very close match.

But yeah. Inklings difficulty to kill is an issue despite how optimal Cosmos is with the character. The two gamea Frozen won came down to last stock situations with both players attempting to fish for thier kill options. Unfortunately for Cosmos, Palu's are better than Inkings

 

[NotLiquid]

Why the heck is a Smash Ultimate exclusive tournament running Bo3 in Top 48

 

[Hippieslayer]

Inkling. Its not trash, but it aint top tier. It's carried by top players using them. It has 30% strings which are nice... peach and pichu can do 70%. Its throws are bad and once people learn the uthrow % ranges more, they will simply avoid getting grabbed while in that range.

Its good at pretty much everything, but it doesnt have overly oppressive traits that it can rely on to stomp everyone, its too honest for its own good. Roller is the only 'dishonest' thing about it and given how people are learning how to dodge it more and more, its losing that ability.

It does not deserve a spot in top tier along with Peach, Olimar, Pichu, Wario and Wolf. Arguably Lucina. Its in the next tier down with palutena, ike, fox etc.

Kinda like the Pits to me albeit better I guess.

On another note, why the hell is Leffen using Roy? Doesn't look convincing at all when he uses him. Looked a lot better when he went Chrom in squad strike or whatever that mode is called. Isn't it fairly obvious Roy will not cut it? Roy def not top tier material.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I did some testing:
Greninja, battle field center stage, fsmash % get a red spark kill against an idle cpu:

Pichu:85%
Fox:92%
Pikachu:96%
Olimar:97%
Greninja:99%
Peach:103%
Wolf:103%
Lucina:103%
Inkling:105%

Not the most scientific test, but I wanted to see for myself how this plays out in practice

Also did the same test but at the very edge of bf:

Pichu:60%
Inkling:75%

Anyways my observations are that while Pichu gets vaporized pretty early, a lot of the perceived top tiers aren’t very heavy either (I know Ike and Wario are arguably up there and I didn’t test them). And the difference seems less pronounced at the edge although I’m not sure why.

Edit: also I don’t think this is that controversial, but people thinking shulk is top tier seem a little out there to me. His results are by far the worst of the hopefuls, he has really slow frame data and attributes outside of Monado, and I feel like people are sort of banking on him having some undiscovered really dishonest tech but I’m skeptical that that wouldn’t get patched out in 2019.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Tweeks Ridley is pretty nuts. Showing just how scary and strong the Space Pirate dragon advantage state is despite all his other shortcomings. I wonder Tweek using Ridley to get tournament level practice to use for Prime Saga?

 

[Repli.Cant]

So apparently Peach and Daisy do have a difference, besides hurtbox that is.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Is this enough to put them apart from each other? I'm not too sure. On one hand, playing Daisy might be a detriment when you don't kill with that stitchface, but on the other hand, how often would that happen?

Also depends on if Daisy's low percent combos are affected at all by this.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Edit: Sniped lol.

Outside of maybe some niche uses in MUs I think Peach's would always be superior than Daisy's due to the differences in turnips.

 

[Heracr055]

Marss 3-2 Wishes in a ruling on coaching that I'm sure will spur a lot of discussion in the coming days

 

[Frihetsanka]

Is this enough to put them apart from each other? I'm not too sure. On one hand, playing Daisy might be a detriment when you don't kill with that stitchface, but on the other hand, how often would that happen?

Also depends on if Daisy's low percent combos are affected at all by this.

It might affect combos off of turnips as well, yes, and in general having a bit less knockback at non-KO % is good for combos, so Peach might just be the better character, overall.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I knew it.

As soon as one tiny alteration was found between Peach & Daisy, people are eagerly calling one superior to the other...

Don't you love people who instantly jump to conclusions...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Marss 3-2 Wishes in a ruling on coaching that I'm sure will spur a lot of discussion in the coming days

Oh? Do tell.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Oh? Do tell.

Guy in the audience shouted advice at Wishes, like "He's going to jump", Marss got upset and in game 5 he stormed off in anger after dying (Wishes had a slight lead). Wishes waited for a little bit and then took the game. TOs decided that the game should be replayed because of "coaching", Wishes didn't like that so he forfeited.

 

[|RK|]

Is it just me (and it could be just me), or am I seeing a drop in ? Ever since VoiD's 2nd placement in Genesis 6, no one including VoiD himself has ever gotten that peak in results. No Pichu player got top 12 in Frostbite, and VoiD got 7th in Summit (and his wins mainly came from Melee players). Then Captain L released a video that Pichu back air OoS can be SDI'ed and avoided. VoiD himself is also considering using more secondaries in his matches.

Ironically, this all happened when ZeRo claimed that is the best in the game. Then again, ZeRo is the person who thought is the best character in SSB4 at one point.

You could make that argument about any character, considering 1st & 2nd place at any tourney kinda bounces around.

And then, VoiD says he's using more secondaries because Pichu can be stressful... Everyone has a secondary for the most part, or they're looking into one.

 

[Heracr055]

Marss was looking for the TO during the set but he was in the back room, hence why he got up and left to find him

Edit: Reading that they might do the runback offstream

Edit 2: Marss won

 

[Repli.Cant]

I knew it.

As soon as one tiny alteration was found between Peach & Daisy, people are eagerly calling one superior to the other...

Don't you love people who instantly jump to conclusions...

Well... Yeah. If this ends up meaning Peach is better or vice versa... that's what we're here to talk about. No reason not to theorize on something like this. Who knows, there might even be more differences.

It's not like everyone trashing the other princess because of one difference. It's just discussion. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I knew it.

As soon as one tiny alteration was found between Peach & Daisy, people are eagerly calling one superior to the other...

Don't you love people who instantly jump to conclusions...

For what reason are we here if not to debate the minutia of an otherwise fairly balanced game? I mean honestly, this is a smash game where every character has a functioning moveset and we have a top 5 instead of a top 1. For now. That's a huge victory for this series, lol.

In brawl the difference between characters was like, you had moves that straight up didn't work right (Mario dtilt) or you got chain grabbed to death by Falco. In Ultimate it means your Turnips are a bit worse.

Anyone else sort of terrified of good game and watch players? That character gives me nightmares.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

I may be the vocal minority here but I truly cannot find Bayonetta viable in any sort of competitive play, and Tamim getting 5th at Glitch was nothing more than a fluke. I understand some are very anti Bayonetta, and I am very vocal towards my side of the argument, but I want to discuss this nonetheless factually. Although I hold SB to a very high regard so I know y'all won't rip me to shreds.

Bayonetta, as a whole, was so dominant in Smash 4 for obvious reasons. These reasons needed to be nerfed and I have no issues with them:

• Frame 4 Witch Twist that gave you the best followups in the game.
• Fair 1 which, in combination with Witch Twist, made mix-ups into True Combos
• Witch Time, which was outright broken
• Obvious other reasons but these three are the most apparent

Going into Ultimate, all three of these were nerfed heavily. Witch Twist is now frame 6, among some other changes (namely it being more susceptible to DI), Fair 1 has so much lag that your only option is to autocancel into Fair23, and Witch Time is... well I assume you've seen.

The big issue here is that Nintendo went further... and further, and further, and didn't really know when to stop. Smash 4 Bayonetta is quite possibly the most flawed a "broken" character can be because she has definite weaknesses that, while they can be avoided, are still there. Nintendo failed to address her biggest flaws in the process of nerfing her, so now you have a character void of her broken stuff (good), void of what made her outstanding (oh), and her bad jank still unpatched (sad).

The character had several flaws from Smash 4 that still haven't been fixed:

• Multihits: Bayonetta's multihits are possibly the worst connecting ones in the game if it wasn't for, say, Ken. Up tilt doesn't connect properly if you hit them either: at a specific angle, or with enough rage. Utilt is possibly her best combo starter and it is inconsistent. There is a video of Tamim losing a stock to MKLeo's Ike because Utilt did a flawed hit, his opponent recovered before the move was over, and smacked Bayo several cities over. Side Tilt has the same issue likewise, where Ftilt 2 and 3 will not connect. This is especially true if your opponent isn't hit by Ftilt 1, they get hit by 2, and 3 just does it's thing. Witch Twist, despite being much less susceptible to SDI, can still be mashed out of. Hell, the move just sometimes won't carry your opponent into the later hits of the move. Thank you single hit witch twist, very cool. Finally, you have Heel Slide, which can be teched and/ or DI'ed out of. This on its own is poor, but seeing how every multihit in the game seems to work better than in 4 it is just depressing.
• Smash Attacks: I legit didn't know how they could somehow not make them better, but instead worse. Here we are though. All 3 Smash Attacks have a reduced charge multiplier of 1.2x, inside and outside of witch time. They clank with literally everything. EVERYTHING. Fsmash has 2 less frames of startup, but because they didn't fully compensate the move it has an additional frame of end lag vs the previous game. My personal favorite here: Fsmash still has a goddamn blind spot right in front of Bayonetta. And because her smashes are stationary, running into her makes Bayo move backwards but the fist stay in place. You can literally outrun her smashes thanks to the blindspot.
• Landing Lag/ Recovery Frames: They reduced landing lag on 3 of her moves: Uair (10 to 8, which is great), Fair (14 to 12, which still isn't enough), and Bair (12 to 8, which is really really nice). But they didn't do enough in a game where Shulk's Nair is frame 6 for landing. They made Dair 2 frames slower. Downwards Afterburner Kick can no longer autocancel, and it gives her 20 frames of landing lag if you don't do the landing hitbox. Her combos have this much landing lag based on the combination: 19, 25 (-1 from 4), 30, 32, 40, and 42 (-1 from 4). It's such a petty difference that it might as well not exist, where heavyweights can't undergo the amount of lag that Bayonetta receives from touching the ground. Held Nair and Held Uair have 8 and 6 more frames of landing lag, but it makes zero sense as to why. In Smash 4, this would be a noticable nerf, as the slower gameplay and safer options made held Nair a big part of her kit. But in Ultimate, these moves are simply mediocre without the nerf (not to mention their nonexistant knockback and high FAF without landing), and with the nerf are literally unusable. They also added lag to held Fair and Bair for some god forsaken reason.
• Shield Pressure: Bayonetta won't break your shield, she has no way of doing so. Her throws are terrible. You can sit in shield and eat grabs until she can Fthrow you at 165% at the ledge. Side B not crossing up or doing the second hit doesn't help either.
• Bullet Arts: Honestly these might as well be taunts if we aren't counting whiffed jab 1234 and Fsmash.

You have the "**** Bayonetta in particular nerfs"

• Airdodges: Bayonetta is one of two characters in the game to have a "reduced airdodge speed". The other is Little Mac. Thank you Nintendo, very cool. In addition, Bat Within always teleports Bayonetta downwards, meaning offstage this could kill her, and onstage this makes her recovery predictable. Bat Within is overrated: it can teleport you to the blastzone, you still take damage, it is predictable, Pokemon Trainer has a frame 1 dodge that is like 10x better than Bat Within.
• Smash Multiplier: Already stated above, she only has a 1.2X charge. This is only for Bayo, unless you want to count Olimar not being able to charge his smash attacks.
• Bullet Climax: Every charge move in the game, minus BC and Limit, has been buffed to be easier to charge, with lower penalties to charge. Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, you can no longer cancel during charging, and you can only hold it for 5 seconds before it autoreleases. Not a major nerf, but a middle finger to Bayo nonetheless.

You have the massive, seemingly uncalled for nerfs:

• Up Air and Neutral Air cannot kill at 245% center stage. Held Nair and Uair are borderline useless unless you go super offstage with held Uair. It is much harder to ladder people, and now it is impossible to finish them with Uair. The move is a great combo tool, but changing a move from killing at 120% to 200+% is just... wow. Both of these moves should kill at 200%, bare minimum, and they don't even do that.
• Bayonetta's Side B (Heel Slide) is pretty awful. No true combos off it unless you are at like 10%, the second hit sometimes isn't true, you can sometimes tech between hits, you can shield it and punish. The move is 71 frames one hit, 72 frames both hits. The move relies entirely on the second hit to be usable, and the removal of it on shield makes it dead in the water. It is all risk minimal reward.
• Dair kills later (on and offstage), has more FAF, has more landing lag, and still doesn't have consistent air into landing hitbox.
• Bair kills later, has more FAF, and has a worsened sweetspot
• Witch Time: This needed to be nerfed. But it still had issues that weren't fixed. It's now a frame 8 counter, with 60 FAF, that only nets you anything meaty past 90%, you can be outprioritized in your own counter, early percents are useless, more than 3 whiffs are useless, etc. Any other counter does more damage at lower percents, and kills earlier/ more consistently.
• Witch Twist: Can still be SDI'ed out of, DI hurts it more, single hit witch twist is terrible while it was good in 4, the grounded hitbox doesn't hit short characters (Pichu, Pikachu, Jiggly, Kirby), and it doesn't snap the ledge... it a game where nearly everything snaps the ledge at some point.

There is more stuff but I've written this for like 30 minutes and I'm tired. I'm here for a discussion, not a roast. Let's have some fun.
Edit: Formatting, added stuff