Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lore]

Re: Nairo's Ganondorf, I'm a bit late to the party but I think it serves as solid evidence of something I've believed for a while now: You can't afford to get careless against superheavies. Even if you have a winning matchup, their raw damage-per-hit means you only have to **** up once and suddenly it's an even game again.

I don't think this is exactly a hot take or anything, or even a lukewarm take, but it's something I needed to say.

Re: Pit being a complete milquetoast of a character, IIRC he does have a spike (dair). Dunno how hard it is to land, though.

I think that Smash 4 had your view commonly said, but it was far less true in that game than this one. I love superheavies in Ultimate.

 

[IsmaR]

Bias aside, I'd say Tweek going mostly Ridley until top 8 shows that's not exclusive to super-heavyweights.

He did eventually fall prey to the basically super-heavy/big body disadvantage state, but it was still an impressive showing considering how long he stuck with it.

This and Trela's 1st place win at Shockwave make me hopeful that Prime Saga could have some more good showings from those getting invited.

 

[Diddy Kong]

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There's some nugget of truth to this.

People really hate sword characters not necessarily because they're overbearing, but because they're the best characters at pressuring you to turn your brain off and do something really stupid.

For example, sword characters, the Marthcina variety in particular, are perhaps the best characters at teaching you to not aggressively land. Tired of getting swept up? Think you're gonna get back at 'em with an FAir while recovering? Sorry, you just ate an FSmash or an OoS Dolphin Slash. Think you're gonna go on and get up on ledge? Whoops, you probably got swept up by a dancing blade, and worst case scenario you ate another FSmash. And lord have mercy on you if you think you can do a get-up shield once that soul-wracking sound of them charging their shield breaker is happening. The character is ace at tilting you with multiple little microplays that's gonna send you over the edge and leave an opening to seal a stock.

Lucina is really good, but half of the reason as to why is basic intimidation tactics. It's the same reason Ganondorf still suckers in so many people in 2019 (especially apt now that he too has a sword), but with exchanging raw power for some well appreciated speed that gives her an overt advantage in a game where mobility is king. Lucina's got a laundry list of options available but the most effective ones come from the opponent initiating the approach. If she has to make the first move, her options are generally a bit more predictable. Her disadvantage state is a total mixed bag as such.

Outside of those statistics I can see why Leo believes Lucina might be overrated by the crowd. He's done tremendous work with the character but by that same token he's done a lot of tremendous work with Ike, who we know has a share of flaws people like to forget exists. Also, outside of MKLeo - who is only using her as a secondary - we don't really see a lot of Lucina mains in any of the stacked tournaments. Lucina does really well in regionals, granted, but between Collision 2019, Frostbite 2019, Genesis 6 and Glitch 6, the only dedicated Lucina main that has shown up in all of Top 64 is Mr E. Sure, Nairo and MKLeo secondary the character, but Nairo saw better success mainly using Palutena throughout Collision (of note is how Leffen has said Nairo should be committing to maining her more rather than trying to secondary Lucina), while MKLeo only uses Lucina during select matches. And MKLeo is, well, MKLeo.

Mind you, all of this is, of course, playing devil's advocate. I can absolutely buy the argument that Lucina is Top 5, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless because I can't even disagree with Leo that, compared to other characters on the roster, Lucina is one of the way more basic characters in terms of game plan. She's great at teaching you the importance of why autopiloting is bad.

And again, this is exactly how I'm beating Lucina players with Diddy. Run, space out their approaches, throw Banana, wreck havock. Her moves come out fast, but do have some noticable lag afterwards. And many of the Top Tiers aren't exactly well suited for her style of approaching, which makes her effective against them, but is still a major weakness against anyone who's not playing the rushdown game. She's definitely a strong character, but one with some weaknesses. If you can be effective up close towards her and are fast enough to punish her sword swings, Lucina has a hard time answering that. Much like Ike honestly. Not many of the Top Tiers can counter this style very effectively though. Olimar and Wolf probably have the best chance, and maybe Fox due to his overall speed.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

>mfw someone says Diddy is top tier because of banana

Lucina has literally no weaknesses, the closest thing she has to a weakness is that other characters strengths may be more than her

 

[G. Stache]

On the topic of heavyweights and what nairo was able to do with Ganon (and sorry if I overlap on some of the points already made): The thing about matchups against superheavies is that their matchup chart is inherently less important for the super heavy because they need less interactions to seal a stock (and therefore to close a game) than all other characters while usually making the other player have to win extra interactions just to seal the stock against the super heavy. This is especially true when the super heavy has a good-to-serviceable recovery that can resist edge guards (think DDD, King K Rool and to a point Bowser and DK) to make them even tankier and even more exhausting to deal with over the course of a 3 stock match. When you are playing a super heavy, it’s the same sort of deal that made Lucario so threatening in smash 4. Sure, you can bully the character around after winning 4 or 5 interactions straight, but all it takes is Smash 4 Lucario or Ultimate Bowser to win one or two interactions with your character and suddenly not only is the game evened up - or perhaps even in Bowser’s/Lucario’s favor - but you are most likely beyond tilted that you got exploded on by such a hard hitting character. Heavies in this game are generally faster, stronger and heavier than they’ve ever been and you have to take that into consideration when dealing with them. Yes superheavies will be exploited and juggled and quite frankly bullied hard at times. If I had a dollar for every time I got juggled hard by my friend who’s a Wario main, I’d already be able to buy myself another switch because Bowser in disadvantaged state is that fat Italian’s food. But it goes both ways in this game and heavies can - and will - bully you back. You can sing to the high heavens how hard your character beats the likes of Bowser, Ganon and DK. You won’t be singing the same tune once they manage to hit you. Maybe your character DOES beat each of them hard, who knows? I sure as hell don’t know just yet. But how hard your character wins neutral and how much damage you can rack up means inherently less when Ganon can touch you 3 times and on the third touch you die. I don’t think all these heavies are necessarily great, or even quite good (except I know Bowser is high tier, don’t @ me). But they’re worth to keep an eye on just because how volatile they are in this game.

 

[meleebrawler]

So something I've been thinking about recently:
vs.

Or more specifically, the nature of their sword inconsistencies. Marth having a weak sword everywhere, and at all times, except for the tip, where most of his kill power is held, but he lacks any consistent setups into said tip, forcing marth to fish for openings that also require exact spacing to capitalize on. With Robin, you get 7-8 swings, hit or miss, of high damage, range, and killpower aerials and smashes with reliable setups into them, and then (up to) 10 seconds of weak aerials and smashes with virtually no killpower, less damage, and less range.

Which is the preferable inconsistency to possess I wonder?

EDIT: I suppose Roy would also apply for marth sword inconsistencies, only inverted, although I dont know if he has reliable setups for his sweetspots, unlike marth who does not.

Given Robin's ability to largely control what kind of hits he wants with his sword and numerous back-up plans for when killing with it fails (kill with Thoron, or even Elthunder instead or just stall time with Thunder and Arcfire zoning), that in addition to better setups makes his offence much scarier than Marth's in my eyes.

 

[Foie]

the agility rankings was a good concept but its heavily incomplete.

Feel free to send me some stats to incorporate, or point out innacuracies to fix, and I can update the Agility Score to be more accurate...

The main things we are missing:

• Jump Height
• Hurtbox Size
• Special Move Agility Bonus (ex: quick attack & flip jump, this may be hard to calculate)

If we can calculate a percentage of average, then we can implement it into the score. Here's the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e08_Jsb3nEuCxg7Jgh46_nd5KgueTFvgYz5Gv0hLZLc/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Lore]

Bias aside, I'd say Tweek going mostly Ridley until top 8 shows that's not exclusive to super-heavyweights.

He did eventually fall prey to the basically super-heavy/big body disadvantage state, but it was still an impressive showing considering how long he stuck with it.

This and Trela's 1st place win at Shockwave make me hopeful that Prime Saga could have some more good showings from those getting invited.

Imagine Ridley with the weight to match his size. He's so weirdly lightweight and easy to kill compared to other characters of his size.

Like if they aren't going to buff his weight, they should at least make his recovery better.

 

[Diddy Kong]

>mfw someone says Diddy is top tier because of banana

Lucina has literally no weaknesses, the closest thing she has to a weakness is that other characters strengths may be more than her

That;s not what I'm saying, I'm saying Diddy has a positive matchup against Lucina. Never stated he's Top Tier, but he's definitely underrated.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Imagine Ridley with the weight to match his size. He's so weirdly lightweight and easy to kill compared to other characters of his size.

Like if they aren't going to buff his weight, they should at least make his recovery better.

He's as heavy as Wario so whild it's not a good weight, it could have been worse. Imagine if Ridley weighs as much as Mewtwo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Imagine Ridley with the weight to match his size. He's so weirdly lightweight and easy to kill compared to other characters of his size.

Like if they aren't going to buff his weight, they should at least make his recovery better.

Seems like you never played Mewtwo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Feel free to send me some stats to incorporate, or point out innacuracies to fix, and I can update the Agility Score to be more accurate...

The main things we are missing:

• Jump Height
• Hurtbox Size
• Special Move Agility Bonus (ex: quick attack & flip jump, this may be hard to calculate)

If we can calculate a percentage of average, then we can implement it into the score. Here's the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e08_Jsb3nEuCxg7Jgh46_nd5KgueTFvgYz5Gv0hLZLc/edit?usp=sharing

I don't entirely know how hitbox size affects the agility score. Being big or small doesn't affect how fast the character is, it just affects how easy it is to hit the opponent, which is something completely different.

Imagine Ridley with the weight to match his size. He's so weirdly lightweight and easy to kill compared to other characters of his size.

Like if they aren't going to buff his weight, they should at least make his recovery better.

Just because Ridley isn't as heavy as the other superheavies, doesn't mean he isn't heavy period.

Although a recovery buff wouldn't hurt, I think people are kind of exaggerating his recovery. Ridley has numerous ways to mix up his recovery: take the high route and up B to the legs in the particular down-left angle, go low, airdodge to ledge, and side B. There are, of course, limits to where he starts up, but not as linear as people says. Ridley up B is somewhat easy to intercept during start-up, but it can be tricky, and oftentimes risky, to intercept when the actual move's hitboxes come out, similar to Wolf's up B.

Underweight for his hitbox size and exploitable recovery are noticeable weaknesses that I do think prevents Ridley from being high tier atm, but there are not character crippling weaknesses like some people has claimed. All of this is coming from someone who used to think that it does cripple the character btw.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

There are a lot of other practical factors that contribute to characters feeling slower, like Peach’s 20 frame slower FAF neutral air dodge than Greninja, or her rolls and spot dodges each being a couple frames slower in FAF. The landing lag and FAF of their moves can make them faster or slower to respond to something, in practice. The distance traveled by someone like Chrom or Roy’s air dodge is significant.

I suppose we could define “Agility” without considering anything but movement (and thus no laggy frames) but I’m not sure how practically important that is given how the game is played. Even then, there are a lot of missing factors - like for example, Greninja can hop right over people out of the corner, Peach can float cancel to juke people vertically, ZSS can immediately change momentum with a third jump, etc

I still think the best way to capture this would be some “trial” like thing like PracticalTAD has done for recovery distance and traveling under battlefield, etc

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of super heavies, I've been playing a lot in friendlies. He's an interesting and unique character. His design is based around making the right calls. His startup frame data is very good and he has armor on many attacks. Conversely, he has a lot of lag and a huge hurtbox. K.Rool's main issue however is poor hitboxes for option coverage relative to his size. Almost all K.Rool's attacks are great at hitting a specific area and nowhere else. Utilt is f5, has arm intangibility and great for hitting a bit in front and diagonally above him. But it doesn't hit directly above or behind him. Similarly Ftilt hits infront only, Usmash/Uair hit directly above, and moves like jab have relatively short reach. DA lunges out quickly then stops short. You have to micromanage positioning K.Rool. Pivoting attacks like FTilt and crownerang helps.

He has the large character weak disadvantage state but also lives forever. There are tools to help like an armored Nair and counter/reflector but that's only good for in front. Still it's better than nothing. I was fighting Simon and while it's a losing MU, there were things I could do. K.Rool's recovery is possibly the best on a super heavy although still exploitable.

K.Rool does best with fewer platforms as he isn't great at platform poking yet gets trapped on them himself. What K.rool wants to do is make the opponent guess if he's going to grab or attack, get the opponent in disadvantage and bully them with quick armored hitboxes. He's very scary when intercepting offstage.

Overall I think K.Rool is both underrated and overrated. He's not good but better than a lot of tier lists say. He's a very weird character and different than other heavyweights.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

That;s not what I'm saying, I'm saying Diddy has a positive matchup against Lucina. Never stated he's Top Tier, but he's definitely underrated.

https://youtu.be/GTARnKE4LJg?t=277

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ridley is kinda a weird and interesting case I feel. He is a flawed mid-tier character that still has some very good and things about him you cannot disregard. But for how amazing and scary his advantage state is, he gets bodied just as when he in in disadvantage in lots of cases and meta relevant MU's.

Ridley is one of those characters that if he can get some buffs or Qol improvements to fix or mitigate his flaws in future balance patches, he can become a real threat in this game. (think sad state when he first when was realeased to when he got buffed and became an arguable top-tier)

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Ridley is kinda a weird and interesting case I feel. He is a flawed mid-tier character that still has some very goof things about him. But for how amazing and scary his advantage state is, he gets bodies just as hard when he in in disadvantage in lots of cases and meta relevant MU's

Ridley is one of those characters that if he can get some buffs or Qol improvements to fix or mitigate his falws, he can become a real monster to look out for

Ridley is just one of those characters you can't rank. He's wicked volatile and I expect to see him jump up and down the tier lists.

 

[Diddy Kong]

https://youtu.be/GTARnKE4LJg?t=277

He's lying.

 

[ZephyrZ]

There are a lot of other practical factors that contribute to characters feeling slower, like Peach’s 20 frame slower FAF neutral air dodge than Greninja, or her rolls and spot dodges each being a couple frames slower in FAF. The landing lag and FAF of their moves can make them faster or slower to respond to something, in practice. The distance traveled by someone like Chrom or Roy’s air dodge is significant.

It's worth noting that the FAF you get on your air dodge is directly correlated to fall speed, so that already sort of accounts for that.

I definitely agree that frame data and rolls effect "agility", however. It's why so many people think a lot of superheavies feel slow despite some of them having really good run speeds in this game. Charizard and Fox have very similar run and air speeds (Fox being a little bit faster in both), but the difference seems so much greater then it is because Fox's moves also tend to come out faster, giving you much less time to react.

Another important thing to note is how much certain moves can make a difference. Squirtle can get a burst of speed with Withdraw. Bowser Jr. has his side special, and Ganondorf has his wizard's foot. There's just so many different factors to consider.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

He's lying.

The man straight carried Diddy Kong through 52 consecutive tournament wins in Smash 4. If anyone knows Diddy Kong, it's him.

Edit: I was wrong. The correct answer was 56 according to him, 53 according to his world record title.

 

[epicnights]

Re: Nairo's Ganondorf, I'm a bit late to the party but I think it serves as solid evidence of something I've believed for a while now: You can't afford to get careless against superheavies. Even if you have a winning matchup, their raw damage-per-hit means you only have to **** up once and suddenly it's an even game again.

I don't think this is exactly a hot take or anything, or even a lukewarm take, but it's something I needed to say.

Re: Pit being a complete milquetoast of a character, IIRC he does have a spike (dair). Dunno how hard it is to land, though.

Pit’s got a frame 10 spike directly below him, but it’s particularly weak. Base knockback of *0*, with 80 knockback growth, meaning it’s got the strength of weak Zelda dair, which isn’t exactly impressive. Sure, you get combo potential out of the move with the non-spike hitboxes, but as a spike for an otherwise excellent edgeguarder, it leaves much to be desired.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

The man straight carried Diddy Kong through 52 consecutive tournament wins in Smash 4. If anyone knows Diddy Kong, it's him.

Edit: I was wrong. The correct answer was 56 according to him, 53 according to his world record title.

You could probably say the same thing about Nairo and smash 4 ZSS, yet here we are.

Not saying ZeRo hasn't proven his knowledge of the character, just that we should take his word as one of the many perspectives on Ultimate Diddy (although an especially relevant one).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The man straight carried Diddy Kong through 52 consecutive tournament wins in Smash 4. If anyone knows Diddy Kong, it's him.

Edit: I was wrong. The correct answer was 56 according to him, 53 according to his world record title.

Okay, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But there is a reason why All previous pro Diddy mains, as well as Sheik mains have all but abandoned thse characters in ultimate.

In Smash 4 Diddy and Sheik were neutral gods, with no other character really able to play and monopolize neutral like they could. (yes, not even Bayo) They could not get crazy early jank kills like Bayo or ZSS, but they won just by how overall oppressive they were
.

Now in Ultimate, they still have very strong neutral games, but then there are these problems

• The reward they get off it has been decreased, meaning they have to win it more
• Their Kill power or setups have been nerfed, so now they struggle to kill. Its no longer meme material like in Smash 4, they really have a hard time taking stocks
• Here is the big one, Due to how Ultimate works, the neutral games for almost every relevant character now has been improved from their last iteration So now Diddy and Sheik are really not that special anymore. They do not really have one or two "win neutral insantly" move now and 90% of the roster just has to accept that

I am not saying Diddy is terrible at all. But from a competitive standpoint. There is little reason to use him for how much effort he needs now. When you can pick a character that is much easier to use and succeed with . Or a character that while does take effort to master fully, do give out the reward equal or greater than the effort put in .

Feel free to continue to use Diddy if you like the character and have fun using him. It does not look like he will be greater than mid-tier barring patches and balance changes

 

[Gleam]

There's probably a number of things that can bring Ridley up to High Tier, not all of them necessary but each one potentially strong. Ridley is always going to be combo food and to take that primary weakness away is to create a possibly broken character. Anyway, some improvements.

1.) Give him anothet extra jump. Perhaps more if balances out his other flaws.

2.) Have is projectile come out quicker, making it better for neutral while also being good at edgeguarding. If balance is needed, limit the number of fireballs. Perhaps you could have one fireball come out real fast and the rest charged.

3.) Take away just a bit of the lag on Space Pirate Rush.

4.) Have Wing Blitz be an 8 directional move to both add variation to recovery options and just make it easier for the player.

5.) Increase his mobilty to help deal with being comboed, perhaps at the cost of losing some power or weight. Again, whatever helps with balance.

But when get down to it, what Ridley needs to jump up to High Tier is arguably something to improve his neutral.

Lucina, Roy, ROB, Link, Palutena, Young Link,Snake, Pichu,Wolf plus others are just going to beat Ridley in a straight up fight. Some characters are good enough to both beat him in Nuetral and all but cancel out his advantageous state.

Ridley is on the defensive and he either needs something to help his offense or make it so hes more difficult to kill.

Now tl/dr on the subject of Ganondorf, I'm going to suggest just one thing needed to make him a good to great character, though plenty could be done.

Survival. It can be an improved recovery, better mobilty but I believe Ganon's biggest flaw is that he is far too easy to gimp and keep off stage. Its not uncommon for Ganon to die around 50-70% just because his recovery is so poor. If Ganon could better survive to 120-150% even through gimps, it would help him tremendously.

He'd still have the same flaws such as easily comboed, relative lag and mobilty issues but his ideal of being a bait and punish wirks better.

In this hypothetical case, Ganon can still kill around 70% but opponents would have to get him higher, risking not a comeback during that time, but also having to deal with Rage.

Right now, many characters can kill Ganon jusy as low as he kills them but have a far superior combat system to go along with it. Ganon is, kind of unable to see his true potential, thanks to his flaws.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Ridley's neutral really isn't all that bad against non-projectile zoners, in fact I'd even call it pretty good. D-tilt and Nair on top of his fantastic ground mobility are really all he needs in a lot of match ups thanks to their crazy range. He can deal with Lucina just fine, imo, since he can rival her attack range. His frame data might be lacking but again, his range balances that out. Pichu might be able mess him up if he gets in but getting in with that stubby little range is much easier said then done.

It's just that against projectile spammers his big body makes him an easy target. All Ridley really has going for him in those match ups is his movement speed, but that speed alone isn't enough to allow him to get away with playing super aggro in neutral.

 

[NotLiquid]

GimR has discovered a potential breakthrough in tech chasing. This could definitely end up helping characters who occasionally struggle to kill like Inkling, while also making characters like Greninja and Fox even more powerful.

 

[Shaya]

I feel like is definitely a high tier, and most likely in the top 25-30 range. She might go up on tier lists as time goes on, but I do think that she is a solidly good character regardless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she have some poor matchups against short characters like ,, and ? Also does she have any good matchups versus top tiers?

I'll try to keep it simple.
Zero Suit reliably applies a threat Oli generally doesn't have to deal with by being prone to having f-smash and side-b whiff punished thanks to grab. Other long range tools like zair and side-b also allow ZSS to stay out of olimar's main threat zone while still applying pressure. Nair and fair can be used to approach in a way that's safe-ish and clanks with a lot of pikmin stuff while still giving a hit. His disadvantage state is particularly poor in exactly the way Zero Suit wants it to be (poor aerial drift/landing options). Olimar's helmet being a plus-sized hurtbox helps a bit too.
Nairo consistently beat dabuz olimar in s4 and Marss is up 2 sets to 1 vs it in this game (I believe; but the set dabuz won was at like 1am with a visibly exhausted Marss giving up after g1).

Now, why are small characters seen as hard? Coz of Smash4. But do you know why they were hard in smash4?
Because Zero Suits only practical option in neutral was to do a landing nair, a move which has close to 0 frames leeway of mixing up timing against the smaller characters. This combined with holding onto shield and grabs being so safe to throw out let smaller characters have all the ease of reactability in the MU.
Zero Suit's ftilt is now safe on block, has forward air to land and to rise with, and playing passive and reactive towards this is NOT EASY anymore (I would dare to say - NOT VIABLE). Zero Suit can apply pressure to the shields of small characters not once every 40 frames with 0 leeway of mix ups, but basically whenever the hell she wants.

In S4, these match ups were difficult to play, but not actually 'poor match ups' in my opinion. Zero Suit has/d significant range and mobility advantages over Pikachu; Pikachu couldn't actually approach her and relied entirely on punishing failures to punish/bad over committing at all bar top levels of play.
I don't have enough of a strong opinion about the Pikachu match up in this game - Pichu on the other hand is hilarious. Pichu's list of safe moves on block against Zero Suit's boost kick oos pragmatically comes down to ftilt and landing bair. Pichu hurts himself in neutral trying to apply pressure. Pichu dies to boostkick starting from 70%. Zero Suit uniquely is able to flip jump/down-b through basically every trap/set up Pichu has.
The match ups probably even at best for Pichu.

I'm in the camp that believes she beats Lucina/Marth.
Wolf has to deal with being outdone at midrange (i.e. blaster and dash attack aren't as inhibiting like they are in most other mus), she also has the tools to ACTUALLY deal with Wolf's recovery without the risk traditional edge guard characters have. Marss is the "reason" MKLeo stopped using Wolf (he said he would keep using him until he lost after Genesis).

I would go to so far to say nothing's worse than 45:55 out of the rest of the common chars.

While I'm not certain she's top tier, she seems to be in a very favourable position in terms of viability - definitely shouldn't be in line for any nerfs, and already showing to deal with basically anything/everything we're seeing right now.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Said it elsewhere, but I think that just because Leo is prolly right doesn't make Lucina bad. Pick a top tier you CAN'T say bad things about, tbh. It's how this game is made.

He never said Lucina is bad.

 

[N8than]

I'll try to keep it simple.
Zero Suit reliably whiff punishes Olimar thanks to grab. Olimar has to legitimately think a lot more about his forward smashes and side-b/pikmin tosses in neutral - something he doesn't have to vs practically any other character in the game. His disadvantage state is poor.
Nairo consistently beat dabuz olimar in s4 and Marss is up 2 sets to 1 vs it in this game (I believe; but the set dabuz won was at like 1am with a visibly exhausted Marss giving up after g1).

Now, why are small characters seen as hard? Coz of Smash4. But do you know why they were hard in smash4?
Because Zero Suits only practical option in neutral was to do a landing nair, a move which has close to 0 frames leeway of mixing up timing against the smaller characters. This combined with holding onto shield and grabs being so safe to throw out let smaller characters have all the ease of reactability in the MU.
Zero Suit's ftilt is now safe on block, has forward air to land and to rise with, and playing passive and reactive towards this is NOT EASY anymore (I would dare to say - NOT VIABLE). Zero Suit can apply pressure to the shields of small characters not once every 40 frames with 0 leeway of mix ups, but basically whenever the hell she wants.

In S4, these match ups were difficult to play, but not actually 'poor match ups' in my opinion. Zero Suit has/d significant range and mobility advantages over Pikachu; Pikachu couldn't actually approach her and relied entirely on punishing failures to punish/bad over committing at all bar top levels of play.
I don't have enough of a strong opinion about the Pikachu match up in this game - Pichu on the other hand is hilarious. Pichu's list of safe moves on block against Zero Suit's boost kick oos pragmatically comes down to ftilt and landing bair. Pichu hurts himself in neutral trying to apply pressure. Pichu dies to boostkick starting from 70%. Zero Suit uniquely is able to flip jump/down-b through basically every trap/set up Pichu has.
The match ups probably even at best for Pichu.

I'm in the camp that believes she beats Lucina/Marth.
Wolf has to deal with being outdone at midrange (i.e. blaster and dash attack aren't as inhibiting like they are in most other mus), she also has the tools to ACTUALLY deal with Wolf's recovery without the risk traditional edge guard characters have. Marss is the "reason" MKLeo stopped using Wolf (he said he would keep using him until he lost after Genesis).

I would go to so far to say nothing's worse than 45:55 out of the rest of the common chars.

While I'm not certain she's top tier, she seems to be in a very favourable position in terms of viability - definitely shouldn't be in line for any nerfs, and already showing to deal with basically anything/everything we're seeing right now.

Bit aggressive, but thanks for the explanation anyways.

 

[Shaya]

Bit aggressive, but thanks for the explanation anyways.

There was no intentional aggression in my tone towards you.
My apologies for it coming across that way.
(I really just wanted to somehow respond with just a paragraph ['keep it simple'] rather than doing another shortish essay which doesn't cover everything but hopefully enough and and and and - which generally exhausts me, but I failed. And posing questions within a response is a means of further engagement/articulation and was to the wider-audience and not just yourself. Otherwise, idk).

 

[N8than]

There was no intentional aggression in my tone towards you.
My apologies for it coming across that way.
(I really just wanted to somehow respond with just a paragraph ['keep it simple'] rather than doing another shortish essay which doesn't cover everything but hopefully enough and and and and - which generally exhausts me, but I failed. And posing questions within a response is a means of further engagement/articulation and was to the wider-audience and not just yourself. Otherwise, idk).

Don't worry about it, your response was really helpful and I appreciate the effort you went to.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I'll try to keep it simple.
Zero Suit reliably applies a threat Oli generally doesn't have to deal with by being prone to having f-smash and side-b whiff punished thanks to grab. Other long range tools like zair and side-b also allow ZSS to stay out of olimar's main threat zone while still applying pressure. Nair and fair can be used to approach in a way that's safe-ish and clanks with a lot of pikmin stuff while still giving a hit. His disadvantage state is particularly poor in exactly the way Zero Suit wants it to be (poor aerial drift/landing options). Olimar's helmet being a plus-sized hurtbox helps a bit too.
Nairo consistently beat dabuz olimar in s4 and Marss is up 2 sets to 1 vs it in this game (I believe; but the set dabuz won was at like 1am with a visibly exhausted Marss giving up after g1).

Now, why are small characters seen as hard? Coz of Smash4. But do you know why they were hard in smash4?
Because Zero Suits only practical option in neutral was to do a landing nair, a move which has close to 0 frames leeway of mixing up timing against the smaller characters. This combined with holding onto shield and grabs being so safe to throw out let smaller characters have all the ease of reactability in the MU.
Zero Suit's ftilt is now safe on block, has forward air to land and to rise with, and playing passive and reactive towards this is NOT EASY anymore (I would dare to say - NOT VIABLE). Zero Suit can apply pressure to the shields of small characters not once every 40 frames with 0 leeway of mix ups, but basically whenever the hell she wants.

In S4, these match ups were difficult to play, but not actually 'poor match ups' in my opinion. Zero Suit has/d significant range and mobility advantages over Pikachu; Pikachu couldn't actually approach her and relied entirely on punishing failures to punish/bad over committing at all bar top levels of play.
I don't have enough of a strong opinion about the Pikachu match up in this game - Pichu on the other hand is hilarious. Pichu's list of safe moves on block against Zero Suit's boost kick oos pragmatically comes down to ftilt and landing bair. Pichu hurts himself in neutral trying to apply pressure. Pichu dies to boostkick starting from 70%. Zero Suit uniquely is able to flip jump/down-b through basically every trap/set up Pichu has.
The match ups probably even at best for Pichu.

I'm in the camp that believes she beats Lucina/Marth.
Wolf has to deal with being outdone at midrange (i.e. blaster and dash attack aren't as inhibiting like they are in most other mus), she also has the tools to ACTUALLY deal with Wolf's recovery without the risk traditional edge guard characters have. Marss is the "reason" MKLeo stopped using Wolf (he said he would keep using him until he lost after Genesis).

I would go to so far to say nothing's worse than 45:55 out of the rest of the common chars.

While I'm not certain she's top tier, she seems to be in a very favourable position in terms of viability - definitely shouldn't be in line for any nerfs, and already showing to deal with basically anything/everything we're seeing right now.

Well I am not to knowledgeable. It looks like ZSS may actullay do well vs Olimar and Wolf from what you said and looking at competitve footage. So that is 2 currently relevant top-tier MU's that bode well for her.

 

[Y2Kay]

Alright guys, time for some spicy, super hot takes.

Now this is merely a prediction. I'm not entirely sure if I'm off-base with this. If there's some flaws in my logic or something I forgot, please lemme know.

I think, in the long run, Greninja will be a better tournament pick than Fox.

Now, time for my reasoning.

As some of you may remember, I made a post a while back comparing Greninja to Fox, my opinions on their differences have differed slightly.

I still believe that they are similar in the aspect that their win conditions are both to get their opponent in their oppressive vortex of frame traps, tech chases, and landing traps. Back then, I state Fox's advantage state, in terms of damage is slightly better than Greninja, but I believe this is no longer the case. I think they are without a doubt evenly matched in terms of raw damage. The advent of attack cancel bair extensions and optomized tech chases off of dragdown up air are my reasons for this.

There are a few notable advatanges that Greninja has over Fox, that I think will be of more value in the meta:

1. Greninja can force approaches with Water Shuriken, while Fox cannot
2. Greninja has excellent edgeguarding, Fox, due to his bad recovery, cannot go deep for edgeguards often
3. Greninja's disadvantage is actually pretty good for a fast faller, Fox . . . not so much
4. Greninja has significant range advantages in certain match ups that Fox cannot abuse

I think these particular advantages are more significant in more matchups. In relevant matchups, such as , ,, , and others, Greninja being able to safely force approaches, and edgeguard while not being easily edgeguarded himself makes a huge difference in these MUs.

Of course, Fox has some things over Greninja, most notably:

1. Greninja has no OOS options as strong as Fox Nair or Up smash
2. Fox Nair allows him to ledgetrap very effectively

But I don't think these advantages really help Fox as much as Greninja's advantages, however. Greninja doesnt have deadly reversal's OOS like fox, but Full Hop OOS gets him out of pressure against most characters, and raw reading ledge options with Fair, along with Forward Tilt and forward throw makes his ledgetrapping good enough to keep up. Fox does better than Greninja against and maybe , but I'll need to see more before I confidently say that. Otherwise, they do about the same in matchups, while Greninja has a slightly easier time against swordsmen and lower mobility maulers like Peach.

So overall, I think Greninja's performs better in more relevant matchups than Fox. if there's something I'm not quite grasping about this comparison, lemme know.

 

[Browny]

I have decided that this game is extremely well balanced... but the idea of buffing characters to bring them up might actually be significantly harder than nerfing a few down. It feels to me like there is no more than 4 defined tiers with the vast majority of characters only really good as a counterpick to hit the enemy with matchup unfamiliarity. No order whatsoever here

I know that people hate nerf culture, but sometimes you have to look at what some characters in top tier have and if you had to somehow bring 50 characters up to their level of nonsense, we'd be entering brawl- where everyone has some absurd jank and 3 stocks doesnt seem like enough to determine who is the better player. It is literally impossible to buff a character like little mac, up to the level of fox, without him being able to KO you at 40% with fsmash since you can't just buff him by making his aerial game or recovery miles better, thats completely against the design philosophy of the character. you dont want everyone to be the same level of busted. you want them all as strong, but very differently.

Simple things like fox's usmash have its range returned to smash 4, theres no reason whatsoever that move had to get buffed. Shadow sneak as a recovery option is just too free and too powerful. uthrow thunder on pichu is far too easy and too powerful.

Nerfing these things would NOT remove those characters from top tier, it just would make them a bit more honest. Its unfair when a combo character like sheik's most damaging combo does like 30% while pichu can do 40% with its eyes closed or with 5 minutes of practice, 70% with lightning loops. I don't want sheik to be brought up to standard by doubling her damage which is legitimately what it would take. Just even the playing field.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

Yes some nerfs are better for the meta.
Although I think the devs will be focusing on buffing the characters who need a little help. ( etc...)
However, I disagree heavily on your statement.
It's completely possible to make him a fairly tasteful high tier.

Examples:
-Fix all his moves to link and hit correctly.
-Revert his old grounded Side-B distance.
-Allow him to get his Side-B back after being hit like in Sm4sh.
-Slightly increase his full hop or double jump height.
-Reduce the endlag on aerial KO Punch so it gives him a horizontal recovery boost.
-Heavily reduce the endlag on fully charged Neutral-B.
-A high damaging &/or decently threatening kill throw.

He doesn't need to be entirely polarizing to make a splash in the meta.

 

[Rizen]

Alright guys, time for some spicy, super hot takes.

Now this is merely a prediction. I'm not entirely sure if I'm off-base with this. If there's some flaws in my logic or something I forgot, please lemme know.

I think, in the long run, Greninja will be a better tournament pick than Fox.

Now, time for my reasoning.

As some of you may remember, I made a post a while back comparing Greninja to Fox, my opinions on their differences have differed slightly.

I still believe that they are similar in the aspect that their win conditions are both to get their opponent in their oppressive vortex of frame traps, tech chases, and landing traps. Back then, I state Fox's advantage state, in terms of damage is slightly better than Greninja, but I believe this is no longer the case. I think they are without a doubt evenly matched in terms of raw damage. The advent of attack cancel bair extensions and optomized tech chases off of dragdown up air are my reasons for this.

There are a few notable advatanges that Greninja has over Fox, that I think will be of more value in the meta:

1. Greninja can force approaches with Water Shuriken, while Fox cannot
2. Greninja has excellent edgeguarding, Fox, due to his bad recovery, cannot go deep for edgeguards often
3. Greninja's disadvantage is actually pretty good for a fast faller, Fox . . . not so much
4. Greninja has significant range advantages in certain match ups that Fox cannot abuse

I think these particular advantages are more significant in more matchups. In relevant matchups, such as , ,, , and others, Greninja being able to safely force approaches, and edgeguard while not being easily edgeguarded himself makes a huge difference in these MUs.

Of course, Fox has some things over Greninja, most notably:

1. Greninja has no OOS options as strong as Fox Nair or Up smash
2. Fox Nair allows him to ledgetrap very effectively

But I don't think these advantages really help Fox as much as Greninja's advantages, however. Greninja doesnt have deadly reversal's OOS like fox, but Full Hop OOS gets him out of pressure against most characters, and raw reading ledge options with Fair, along with Forward Tilt and forward throw makes his ledgetrapping good enough to keep up. Fox does better than Greninja against and maybe , but I'll need to see more before I confidently say that. Otherwise, they do about the same in matchups, while Greninja has a slightly easier time against swordsmen and lower mobility maulers like Peach.

So overall, I think Greninja's performs better in more relevant matchups than Fox. if there's something I'm not quite grasping about this comparison, lemme know.

Fox's blaster has good DPS and can force approaches. Fox players just never choose to do this for some reason.

I agree Gren has some things over Fox but in many ways he feels like a watered down Fox. Fox's comparative frame data is better. Gren has a nice f5 Dtilt that leads into Fair, Fox's f3 Utilt combos into its self several times then aerials. Gren's Fair is f16, Fox's Bair is 9. Nair F 4, G 12. Grab F6 G 10 (you sunk my battleship). Fox's Nair is a big advantage over Greninja's air to ground game. Fox vortexes* better. Fox's kill game is better imo with Usmash and Nair confirms. A fast grab means it's less safe to shield vs Fox and Gren's grab is very slow for a non-tether. Like you mentioned Fox has an OoS game.

There are several aspects where Greninja is great but Fox is amazing. Gren's really good but I still think Fox is better.

*it's a verb now: deal with it.
_______________________________________

OT, Tweek's YL is looking tight, although with room to grow. The last 3 games support my evaluation of YL vs Palutena being even.

 

[Y2Kay]

Fox's blaster has good DPS and can force approaches. Fox players just never choose to do this for some reason.

I agree Gren has some things over Fox but in many ways he feels like a watered down Fox. Fox's comparative frame data is better. Gren has a nice f5 Dtilt that leads into Fair, Fox's f3 Utilt combos into its self several times then aerials. Gren's Fair is f16, Fox's Bair is 9. Nair F 4, G 12. Grab F6 G 10 (you sunk my battleship). Fox's Nair is a big advantage over Greninja's air to ground game. Fox vortexes* better. Fox's kill game is better imo with Usmash and Nair confirms. A fast grab means it's less safe to shield vs Fox and Gren's grab is very slow for a non-tether. Like you mentioned Fox has an OoS game.

There are several aspects where Greninja is great but Fox is amazing. Gren's really good but I still think Fox is better.

*it's a verb now: deal with it.
_______________________________________

OT, Tweek's YL is looking tight, although with room to grow. The last 3 games support my evaluation of YL vs Palutena being even.

Greninja's up tilt has great combo potential. It may be slower than Fox's but his tongue intangible giving him a large disjoint that hits above and behind him. Fox's back air maybe faster, but it has less range, has less knock back, less damage, and no autocancel windows.

What makes you think Fox vortex's better? Greninja's vortex is deadly mostly because of how strong his aerial mobility and jumps are after he lands a hit. I'd argue Greninja's mobility makes much more suited for juggling, though fox's up air maybe slightly better.

Fox's kill confirms are honestly not better than Greninja's. Fox Nair and Greninja Down Tilt are both absurdly potent.

It's definitely not safer to shield against Greninja. Greninja's reward off of grabs is leagues better than Fox. And having such a polarizing midrange option as Greninja's Dash Attack makes it very easy for Greninja to condition people to shield. Greninja's grab weakness feels overstated imo, the range of the grab definitely offsets it, except for OOS purposes.

 

[Rizen]

What makes you think Fox vortex's better?

Fox has better frame data, Utilt combos into its self and Fox has better air to ground conversions.

The speed of a grab matters a lot. I'm saying this as someone who's main has a f12 tether grab. Slow grabs can't tomahawk, they can't out-button and have to be used as a read.

Fox also has better tournament results, not that results are everything.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Fox's blaster has good DPS and can force approaches. Fox players just never choose to do this for some reason.

I think it's simple. Campy/Lame play is frowned upon; the crowd boos, leaves, or you get blown up on the internet (see Scrubquotes). The spectators want a show, and players believe that they have to fight like everyone else to win.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You could probably say the same thing about Nairo and smash 4 ZSS, yet here we are.

Not saying ZeRo hasn't proven his knowledge of the character, just that we should take his word as one of the many perspectives on Ultimate Diddy (although an especially relevant one).

I agree with everything except that Diddy would be Mid Tier. He does have options to kill you know. I haven’t had many moments that % leads up to 200% or something. More like 150% max. Banana > F Smash works well and D Tilt > U Smash also has utility. This is what makes Diddy better than the other Mid Tiers. He’s lower High Tier probably. Just needs a buff or two to be really viable again.

Then again, calling a character Mid Tier in Ultimate has become a meme of sorts.

I also think there's definitely 6 Tiers in Smash. There's no way a character like Zelda is on the same page as DK, Diddy, Yoshi, Link, Ganondorf or Falco. I estimate Diddy is about as good as those characters, and a cut above the other characters often categorised as Mid Tier as Dr.Mario, Robin, Duck Hunt and Bowser Jr.