COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[XSilvenX]

The difference with me is..actual experience rather than more "theory fighter"..

Altering the ledge grab range can also limit some options. Snake might not be able to safely sweetspot the edge by hugging the stage with a rising airdodge after cypher. Other things like recovering a bit lower after a dair, sometimes underneath the edge. Potentially a safe mix-up. Basically these are good options that don't need to be removed. Good options that can be taken advantage of smartly does not equal anti-competitive.

Exactly, another person that THINKS and doesn't blindly make things "harder" for the sake of straying away from vBrawl more.



As for the other topic at hand...

First off I wanna say that I honestly think a lot of the people in here are scrubs (scrubs with good language skills mind you and very persuasive at that).

It's a sad day when people are trying to make AD less effective given how EASILY punishable it is. The funny thing is, since most of the NYC players have been playing Brawl+ MOST people don't even air dodge as much as some of you guys make it seem. So to see you guys complaining about how OP it is really makes me think you guys are bad players. For the most part, if someone gets the chance to airdodge...YOU'RE doing something wrong and not setting up your combos properly or not using the right moves for combos that have stun potential and yes EVERY character has them....Don't tell me bull about how Falcon has an advantage because he has a lot of high stun moves. I was playing with Ninjalink the other day and he went RANDOM and was doing combos with almost every character. It's a matter of finding the right moves that combo. Every char has them and for the most part everyone has combos at low percents. You guys SERIOUSLY wanna make airdodge less powerful when in Brawl+ it isn't even all that powerful. To me it belongs in the "unnecessary changes" bin right alongside shortening ledge grab distance From what I see many of you guys just loooove playing theory fighter with how you make these decisions. I just got done watching 50+ replays from the Brawl+ smashfest (working on a combo vid) I hosted and I fail to see this over powered airdodge that you guys wanna nerf so badly. If you have a problem with people air dodging out of your combos I find that sad because it really shouldn't be happening..

Let me show you how most people get out of combos from what I've seen..

1.Unpredictable DI - Defender goes off course and the Aggressor screws up his followup and drops the combo due to bad positioning.

2.Opponent goes too far - Aggressor uses a move that's too strong and hits the Defender a little bit too far out of "combo range"

3.Hitstun wearing off - Hitstun wears off and the Aggressor gets punished by the Defender's aerial.

4.Airdodging out - Hitstun wears off and the Defender airdodges to the ground or past the Aggressor.


Isn't it weird how the top 3 are legit ways of getting out of combos that we all approve of? I hope you guys see my point. Just incase you don't I'm stating that from my experience with TOP players (not scrubs...not mid-level..not mediocre. All good TOP players that consistently place in vBrawl tournaments and fully understand the mechanics of Brawl+) airdodging in many cases isn't exactly the best option if you want an ADVANTAGE. It will get you out of combos in the case the opponent messes up or your godly DI throws you off so much that you get the ability to but a good player knows when not to chase.... If you seriously get AD'd on in Brawl+ then you're being a little too aggressive ...you can't always chase especially when you see that the Defender's DI trajectory is way off course.

Oh and if you seriously doubt my credibility just youtube my name. Seriously though guys..? From what I read Finns7, Dantarion and goodoldganon are the only guys who seem to understand. And please let us not forget that the only reason airdodging wasn't this much of a big deal in Melee was because Melee's airdodge was bad...VERY bad. So now when we have a viable airdodge it's too powerful, even though it isn't. LOL @ bad players.

 

[Revven]

Exactly, another person that THINKS and doesn't blindly make things "harder" for the sake of straying away from vBrawl more.



As for the other topic at hand...

First off I wanna say that I honestly think a lot of the people in here are scrubs (scrubs with good language skills mind you and very persuasive at that).

It's a sad day when people are trying to make AD less effective given how EASILY punishable it is. The funny thing is, since most of the NYC players have been playing Brawl+ MOST people don't even air dodge as much as some of you guys make it seem. So to see you guys complaining about how OP it is really makes me think you guys are bad players. For the most part, if someone gets the chance to airdodge...YOU'RE doing something wrong and not setting up your combos properly or not using the right moves for combos that have stun potential and yes EVERY character has them....Don't tell me bull about how Falcon has an advantage because he has a lot of high stun moves. I was playing with Ninjalink the other day and he went RANDOM and was doing combos with almost every character. It's a matter of finding the right moves that combo. Every char has them and for the most part everyone has combos at low percents. You guys SERIOUSLY wanna make airdodge less powerful when in Brawl+ it isn't even all that powerful. To me it belongs in the "unnecessary changes" bin right alongside shortening ledge grab distance From what I see many of you guys just loooove playing theory fighter with how you make these decisions. I just got done watching 50+ replays from the Brawl+ smashfest (working on a combo vid) I hosted and I fail to see this over powered airdodge that you guys wanna nerf so badly. If you have a problem with people air dodging out of your combos I find that sad because it really shouldn't be happening..

Let me show you how most people get out of combos from what I've seen..

1.Unpredictable DI - Defender goes off course and the Aggressor screws up his followup and drops the combo due to bad positioning.

2.Opponent goes too far - Aggressor uses a move that's too strong and hits the Defender a little bit too far out of "combo range"

3.Hitstun wearing off - Hitstun wears off and the Aggressor gets punished by the Defender's aerial.

4.Airdodging out - Hitstun wears off and the Defender airdodges to the ground or past the Aggressor.


Isn't it weird how the top 3 are legit ways of getting out of combos that we all approve of? I hope you guys see my point. Just incase you don't I'm stating that from my experience with TOP players (not scrubs...not mid-level..not mediocre. All good TOP players that consistently place in vBrawl tournaments and fully understand the mechanics of Brawl+) airdodging in many cases isn't exactly the best option if you want an ADVANTAGE. It will get you out of combos in the case the opponent messes up or your godly DI throws you off so much that you get the ability to but a good player knows when not to chase.... If you seriously get AD'd on in Brawl+ then you're being a little too aggressive ...you can't always chase especially when you see that the Defender's DI trajectory is way off course.

Oh and if you seriously doubt my credibility just youtube my name. Seriously though guys..? From what I read Finns7, Dantarion and goodoldganon are the only guys who seem to understand. And please let us not forget that the only reason airdodging wasn't this much of a big deal in Melee was because Melee's airdodge was bad...VERY bad. So now when we have a viable airdodge it's too powerful, even though it isn't. LOL @ bad players.

Just FYI Silven, the only "you guys" for NADT are kupo and a few other people he's spoken to. The most of the B+broom aren't for it and aren't even 100% sure if ADing is even OP or not (I personally think it isn't OP).

But your post = win. shanus has been trying to explain the EXACT same thing to kupo.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Exactly, another person that THINKS and doesn't blindly make things "harder" for the sake of straying away from vBrawl more.



As for the other topic at hand...

First off I wanna say that I honestly think a lot of the people in here are scrubs (scrubs with good language skills mind you and very persuasive at that).

It's a sad day when people are trying to make AD less effective given how EASILY punishable it is. The funny thing is, since most of the NYC players have been playing Brawl+ MOST people don't even air dodge as much as some of you guys make it seem. So to see you guys complaining about how OP it is really makes me think you guys are bad players. For the most part, if someone gets the chance to airdodge...YOU'RE doing something wrong and not setting up your combos properly or not using the right moves for combos that have stun potential and yes EVERY character has them....Don't tell me bull about how Falcon has an advantage because he has a lot of high stun moves. I was playing with Ninjalink the other day and he went RANDOM and was doing combos with almost every character. It's a matter of finding the right moves that combo. Every char has them and for the most part everyone has combos at low percents. You guys SERIOUSLY wanna make airdodge less powerful when in Brawl+ it isn't even all that powerful. To me it belongs in the "unnecessary changes" bin right alongside shortening ledge grab distance From what I see many of you guys just loooove playing theory fighter with how you make these decisions. I just got done watching 50+ replays from the Brawl+ smashfest (working on a combo vid) I hosted and I fail to see this over powered airdodge that you guys wanna nerf so badly. If you have a problem with people air dodging out of your combos I find that sad because it really shouldn't be happening..

Let me show you how most people get out of combos from what I've seen..

1.Unpredictable DI - Defender goes off course and the Aggressor screws up his followup and drops the combo due to bad positioning.

2.Opponent goes too far - Aggressor uses a move that's too strong and hits the Defender a little bit too far out of "combo range"

3.Hitstun wearing off - Hitstun wears off and the Aggressor gets punished by the Defender's aerial.

4.Airdodging out - Hitstun wears off and the Defender airdodges to the ground or past the Aggressor.


Isn't it weird how the top 3 are legit ways of getting out of combos that we all approve of? I hope you guys see my point. Just incase you don't I'm stating that from my experience with TOP players (not scrubs...not mid-level..not mediocre. All good TOP players that consistently place in vBrawl tournaments and fully understand the mechanics of Brawl+) airdodging in many cases isn't exactly the best option if you want an ADVANTAGE. It will get you out of combos in the case the opponent messes up or your godly DI throws you off so much that you get the ability to but a good player knows when not to chase.... If you seriously get AD'd on in Brawl+ then you're being a little too aggressive ...you can't always chase especially when you see that the Defender's DI trajectory is way off course.

Oh and if you seriously doubt my credibility just youtube my name. Seriously though guys..? From what I read Finns7, Dantarion and goodoldganon are the only guys who seem to understand. And please let us not forget that the only reason airdodging wasn't this much of a big deal in Melee was because Melee's airdodge was bad...VERY bad. So now when we have a viable airdodge it's too powerful, even though it isn't. LOL @ bad players.

The whole idea was only to compromise for the lack of NADT that some people want. I agree that leaving it the way it is right now is just fine, since AD'ing isn't OP and adding an extra button input before you're allowed to do it wouldn't really help the combo game besides making it easier to mess up.

 

[shanus]

Exactly, another person that THINKS and doesn't blindly make things "harder" for the sake of straying away from vBrawl more.



As for the other topic at hand...

First off I wanna say that I honestly think a lot of the people in here are scrubs (scrubs with good language skills mind you and very persuasive at that).

It's a sad day when people are trying to make AD less effective given how EASILY punishable it is. The funny thing is, since most of the NYC players have been playing Brawl+ MOST people don't even air dodge as much as some of you guys make it seem. So to see you guys complaining about how OP it is really makes me think you guys are bad players. For the most part, if someone gets the chance to airdodge...YOU'RE doing something wrong and not setting up your combos properly or not using the right moves for combos that have stun potential and yes EVERY character has them....Don't tell me bull about how Falcon has an advantage because he has a lot of high stun moves. I was playing with Ninjalink the other day and he went RANDOM and was doing combos with almost every character. It's a matter of finding the right moves that combo. Every char has them and for the most part everyone has combos at low percents. You guys SERIOUSLY wanna make airdodge less powerful when in Brawl+ it isn't even all that powerful. To me it belongs in the "unnecessary changes" bin right alongside shortening ledge grab distance From what I see many of you guys just loooove playing theory fighter with how you make these decisions. I just got done watching 50+ replays from the Brawl+ smashfest (working on a combo vid) I hosted and I fail to see this over powered airdodge that you guys wanna nerf so badly. If you have a problem with people air dodging out of your combos I find that sad because it really shouldn't be happening..

Let me show you how most people get out of combos from what I've seen..

1.Unpredictable DI - Defender goes off course and the Aggressor screws up his followup and drops the combo due to bad positioning.

2.Opponent goes too far - Aggressor uses a move that's too strong and hits the Defender a little bit too far out of "combo range"

3.Hitstun wearing off - Hitstun wears off and the Aggressor gets punished by the Defender's aerial.

4.Airdodging out - Hitstun wears off and the Defender airdodges to the ground or past the Aggressor.


Isn't it weird how the top 3 are legit ways of getting out of combos that we all approve of? I hope you guys see my point. Just incase you don't I'm stating that from my experience with TOP players (not scrubs...not mid-level..not mediocre. All good TOP players that consistently place in vBrawl tournaments and fully understand the mechanics of Brawl+) airdodging in many cases isn't exactly the best option if you want an ADVANTAGE. It will get you out of combos in the case the opponent messes up or your godly DI throws you off so much that you get the ability to but a good player knows when not to chase.... If you seriously get AD'd on in Brawl+ then you're being a little too aggressive ...you can't always chase especially when you see that the Defender's DI trajectory is way off course.

Oh and if you seriously doubt my credibility just youtube my name. Seriously though guys..? From what I read Finns7, Dantarion and goodoldganon are the only guys who seem to understand. And please let us not forget that the only reason airdodging wasn't this much of a big deal in Melee was because Melee's airdodge was bad...VERY bad. So now when we have a viable airdodge it's too powerful, even though it isn't. LOL @ bad players.

My idea is the "compromise" idea to add only a few frames to AD during tumble rather than remove it completely. As Falco400 mentioned, its been an ongoing debate for months with me against and kupo for. I swear people could have written a thesis on both sides of the argument haha.

Also, ill be back near NYC (live ~ an hour from it) in a month and i already spoke with Bum about playing, you want to as well? And if you doubt my credibility, youtube me as well!

 

[kupo15]

Altering the ledge grab range can also limit some options. Snake might not be able to safely sweetspot the edge by hugging the stage with a rising airdodge after cypher. Other things like recovering a bit lower after a dair, sometimes underneath the edge. Potentially a safe mix-up. Basically these are good options that don't need to be removed. Good options that can be taken advantage of smartly does not equal anti-competitive.

We are not removing any options. The compromise would be to add ledge teching and make it harder to come back. You can still come back even if you miss the sweet spot

My idea is the "compromise" idea to add only a few frames to AD during tumble rather than remove it completely. As Falco400 mentioned, its been an ongoing debate for months with me against and kupo for. I swear people could have written a thesis on both sides of the argument haha.

How many times have I told you that you are not removing the option of air dodging?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qPbF7_nAM&feature=channel_page
The option is only removed if the opponent removes it!!!

Seriously. If with both your compromise method and my NADT method, you get punished the same way, what is the difference?

@Sliven: Wow, just too much to respond to I wouldn't know where to start. But generalizing, its a different approach to the game and I can easily call you "bad players" for accepting hit hitstun as a crutch for comboing. The way you don't understand why I don't agree with your thinking is the same way how I don't know how you don't understand mine. Its just a different outlook on the game

 

[Eaode]

@Silven: Lol the only reason I was arguing for NADT back then was exactly because I was playing Theory Fighter. In theory, it's pretty stupid that you get out of a combo for free once the hitstun ends, and it in theory makes the combo game one dimensional.

In practice, the difference is very minimal. We all knew this, but w/e. I can predict airdodges and punish them (although invincibility into the ground into instant shield into roll/block/spotdodge is a pretty powerful escape option), but overall it doesn't change that much. I wasn't really used to punishing AD's before because I am a melee player lol, and AD is only really punishable if they don't land on the ground during it.


So all in all, it's really a mater of taste. The AD is a powerful (but not broken) escape option, but nerfing it or keeping it doesn't really make things better or worse, just different. Arguing that NADT is argued by people who want to make up for a lack of skill

Spoiler

is pretty rude first of all, but

can be countered by the argument that using the airdodge to escape a combo requires less skill. It just depends on how you look at it.

 

[goodoldganon]

Thanks for quoting post like 3 times guys. Makes the page extra long.

 

[GHNeko]

Thanks for quoting post like 3 times guys. Makes the page extra long.

Oh god this.

 

[CloneHat]

I only find AD annoying because it's extremely hard to punish it. It has basically no risk, and you can DI while using it. Making it harder to do won't do anything, people will still do it at all costs. What we need is something to make it less appealing, even if they pull it off. Say there was a one hit KO move; even if we made it so you had to press every button at once, it would still be spammed. We would nerf it.

 

[Swordplay]

I only find AD annoying because it's extremely hard to punish it. It has basically no risk, and you can DI while using it. Making it harder to do won't do anything, people will still do it at all costs. What we need is something to make it less appealing, even if they pull it off. Say there was a one hit KO move; even if we made it so you had to press every button at once, it would still be spammed. We would nerf it.

NO. Maybe in theory but in practice AD is not that hard to punish IF you can predict it.


Once you leave hitstun and go into tumble it should come down to MINDGAMES. Predict which option the opponent will use and punish. Then again the midwest metagame is not able tech skill or any of that but it IS about mindgames so I've had plenty of practice at this.

 

[kupo15]

But punishing an air dodge gives less reward since they are at a completely different location on the stage that you didn't want them to be. This makes air dodging a crutch most of the time when you are not sure of the right action to take because air dodging in most circumstances minimizes punishment easily. This hurts the risk vs reward game

 

[Swordplay]

Maybe for you Kupo.

But after playing a lot I realize that I tend to attack and jump a lot more than airdodge. I don't think it is an abusable option. If my opponent air dodges and I predict it I am often closer to the ground and can even somewhat restart my combo because I predicted and repositioned myself.


Infact there are only 3 characters I airdodge a lot with. They are.....

Link
Samus
Toon Link.

The only reason I do that is because I can attack with zair right out of airdodge but because of that fact AD is a huge part of thier metagame anyway

 

[MBlaze]

I was told to post this here, but is there any way that we could get a code that could make the "My Music" Modifier only work for yourself when you're on wi-fi so it won't freeze the game and or disconnect you from you opponent? Something that could just make only you hear it or something like that so anyone who uses the music swap not change the music back every time? Just a thought that I thought should be considered or looked into...

 

[XSilvenX]

@Silven: Lol the only reason I was arguing for NADT back then was exactly because I was playing Theory Fighter. In theory, it's pretty stupid that you get out of a combo for free once the hitstun ends, and it in theory makes the combo game one dimensional.

In practice, the difference is very minimal. We all knew this, but w/e. I can predict airdodges and punish them (although invincibility into the ground into instant shield into roll/block/spotdodge is a pretty powerful escape option), but overall it doesn't change that much. I wasn't really used to punishing AD's before because I am a melee player lol, and AD is only really punishable if they don't land on the ground during it.


So all in all, it's really a mater of taste. The AD is a powerful (but not broken) escape option, but nerfing it or keeping it doesn't really make things better or worse, just different. Arguing that NADT is argued by people who want to make up for a lack of skill

Spoiler

is pretty rude first of all, but

can be countered by the argument that using the airdodge to escape a combo requires less skill. It just depends on how you look at it.

Hmm understandable..all I'm gonna say is nowadays THIS far in Brawl people BAIT airdodges...it's just a part of the game and it's not broken...it's just useful. Just be glad we don't have a Melee airdodge. For argument's sake Brawl+'s codeset makes airdodging to ground into shield/sidestep/roll very hard if you don't drop your early %'age combos. And once you reach the threshold for combos (From my experience around 50%) then they're too high to airdodge to the ground. You should see what I'm saying. In Brawl it was a huge problem but it's not so much in Brawl+. Even Swordplay said he most likely will jump out or counter attack out of combos. If the combo is over..it's over that's just how it is..they're either gonna airdodge, jump, or aerial out. The moves in Brawl aren't even meant to be comboable like that. They just have way too much knockback for the opponent to stay within combo range so what we have now is pretty dam good for what it is.

The fact of the matter is, if your opponent airdodges out then you already dropped your combo because a TRUE combo consists of moves done consecutively WITHIN the hitstun window of each attack so if your opponent airdodges out then you simply hit them too far or they DI'd properly. Most characters in this game lack amazing maneuverability to do extended combos so part of continuing a dropped combo is baiting the airdodge or whatever else they're gonna do. I mean of course you don't have to worry about this so much with Marth, Falcon, Fox, and Meta who can chase their opponents down if they go too far horizontally but most characters have to just give up, not chase and plan their next attack.

 

[Greenpoe]

I was told to post this here, but is there any way that we could get a code that could make the "My Music" Modifier only work for yourself when you're on wi-fi so it won't freeze the game and or disconnect you from you opponent? Something that could just make only you hear it or something like that so anyone who uses the music swap not change the music back every time? Just a thought that I thought should be considered or looked into...

Leave the first song of each stage as the normal track, and feel free to modify all the others. Then, turn all tracks to 0% change of playing for the stages that you changed the music. When you want to play online, go back to those tracks and turn the first one to the max, that way, it'll only play that first song if it chooses from your playlist online, so it shouldn't desync.

 

[MBlaze]

Leave the first song of each stage as the normal track, and feel free to modify all the others. Then, turn all tracks to 0% change of playing for the stages that you changed the music. When you want to play online, go back to those tracks and turn the first one to the max, that way, it'll only play that first song if it chooses from your playlist online, so it shouldn't desync.

I was kinda hoping I'd be able to hear my own hacked music, just a though.t. I think the code I suggested could be a possibility though. :O

 

[CloneHat]

Is it possible to make Ganon's side B put you in trip pose so you can't tech it? Kind of like when you landed in the April Fools set...

 

[Shell]

We cannot currently ID the choke with the hitbox code as it exists now, so we're unable to change it all, unfortunately. However, we're looking into alternative fixes.

 

[Mega-Japan]

Why was the buffering time messed with? I've found it to be the most annoying change made in Brawl+ can only keep on hating it, and I don't mean the "oh crap I just suicided thanks to buffering" type of hate, more like "2 codesets just to add an useless code? No good Wi-Fi? WTF?!" type of hate.

Fore some reason, I am not able to load my good ol textures with the Online codeset, which unless I'm completely wrong, is the one that has no mods on the buffering and the Offline code does load textures yet I can't play Wi-Fi with it and has an really annoying *** buffering change. It simply makes things more confusing for people when setting up Brawl+.

"Online or Offline codes?..... I guess the offline one... wait, wtf?! I can't play Wi-Fi with this?! You have the online code? Oh f*ck this"

There's absolutely no need to have two different type of default codes.
"Most players prefer 2-3 frames of buffer, but if you are from melee, you will probably enjoy 0-1 frames. If you come from regular Brawl, you will probably be fine with 10 frames. It's all preference."
Whatever happened to my "we're not trying to clone melee but make brawl more fun" line? I'm from Melee, way back, and I certainly don't enjoy this change, and neither do a lot of Brawl+ players I've asked.

 

[Sph34r]

The hitbox changes make Falcon's knee sweetspot for 4 frames rather then 2 (as I'm told, anyway). Does someone know what the code is for that? I'm looking for the individual knee fix code without all the other stuff.

 

[thesage]

Um... you can choose how many buffer frames you want with the handicap option.

 

[Greenpoe]

Why was the buffering time messed with? I've found it to be the most annoying change made in Brawl+ can only keep on hating it, and I don't mean the "oh crap I just suicided thanks to buffering" type of hate, more like "2 codesets just to add an useless code? No good Wi-Fi? WTF?!" type of hate.

Fore some reason, I am not able to load my good ol textures with the Online codeset, which unless I'm completely wrong, is the one that has no mods on the buffering and the Offline code does load textures yet I can't play Wi-Fi with it and has an really annoying *** buffering change. It simply makes things more confusing for people when setting up Brawl+.

"Online or Offline codes?..... I guess the offline one... wait, wtf?! I can't play Wi-Fi with this?! You have the online code? Oh f*ck this"

There's absolutely no need to have two different type of default codes.
"Most players prefer 2-3 frames of buffer, but if you are from melee, you will probably enjoy 0-1 frames. If you come from regular Brawl, you will probably be fine with 10 frames. It's all preference."
Whatever happened to my "we're not trying to clone melee but make brawl more fun" line? I'm from Melee, way back, and I certainly don't enjoy this change, and neither do a lot of Brawl+ players I've asked.

Go to IRC chat and get the 4.1 beta, where there's just one set for both online and offline, then play with others playing with the 4.1 set.

 

[Revven]

Why was the buffering time messed with? I've found it to be the most annoying change made in Brawl+ can only keep on hating it, and I don't mean the "oh crap I just suicided thanks to buffering" type of hate, more like "2 codesets just to add an useless code? No good Wi-Fi? WTF?!" type of hate.

Fore some reason, I am not able to load my good ol textures with the Online codeset, which unless I'm completely wrong, is the one that has no mods on the buffering and the Offline code does load textures yet I can't play Wi-Fi with it and has an really annoying *** buffering change. It simply makes things more confusing for people when setting up Brawl+.

"Online or Offline codes?..... I guess the offline one... wait, wtf?! I can't play Wi-Fi with this?! You have the online code? Oh f*ck this"

There's absolutely no need to have two different type of default codes.
"Most players prefer 2-3 frames of buffer, but if you are from melee, you will probably enjoy 0-1 frames. If you come from regular Brawl, you will probably be fine with 10 frames. It's all preference."
Whatever happened to my "we're not trying to clone melee but make brawl more fun" line? I'm from Melee, way back, and I certainly don't enjoy this change, and neither do a lot of Brawl+ players I've asked.

Here's the deal.

We had a set buffer of 2 for the LONGEST time. Whenever people wanted to play on WiFi, they would get rid of it usually because WiFi without the full buffer feels kinda crap (and you need it because of the lag). So, for awhile, people were already dealing with two sets. It wasn't until about a month ago, we bothered to separate them. That's what we have now.

In a set we're testing the IRC, there's only need for ONE set because handicap = buffering works online now (however, both opponents must decide on a buffer). Furthermore, the reason why people wanted to change buffering was not just because of "suiciding", but because of precision and accuracy with their character. I don't know about you, but, I hate it when my character does something I don't want him to do (do the wrong attack or jump when I didn't want to or glide when I didn't want to etc). There's multiple reasons why people set their buffer so low and why we have handicap = buffering. Some people like 4 frames, some people like 6. It's too preferenced to stick with a universal buffering (especially when some characters need to AC attacks).

So, in other words, it's just like any other option in the game you can control. I don't see why it is a big deal. Just turn your buffer up to the default of 10 frames (100%) if you really don't care. Just don't be surprised when you **** up because of it.

 

[kupo15]

Um... you can choose how many buffer frames you want with the handicap option.

Yup. And the broom really needs to take my suggestion and format the default settings code to turn handicap ON to 2 frames.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Yup. And the broom really needs to take my suggestion and format the default settings code to turn handicap ON to 2 frames.

I agree with this. Default set at 2.

 

[CloneHat]

I agree with this. Default set at 2.

Uhhh, I agree, but is that really so important?

 

[cAm8ooo]

Uhhh, I agree, but is that really so important?

Not really. But when you have the lines you might as well do it. Plus some people are dumb and dont know what it does, they then play at 0 buffer and think their characters are messed up. They then come to complain to us about it and we have to explain it 50 times. So it just helps to save some time.

 

[Rkey]

Insight on the NADT

I think I solved the argument, hear me out:

- Those who oppose the NADT claims that AD is not OP
- Kupo, who agrees with the NADT, claims that wiggling is easy, and that even when it is put in, all you have to do is learn how to wiggle and then you can AD just the same way...

Do you guys remember the argument about whether we should give the game auto L-cancel? Do you guys remember that in the end, the argument that was:

"All it takes is a month to learn, and then it's all muscle memory. There's no need to implement it really since there's no situation where you'd want to miss an L-cancel."

Now, listen to this. For wiggling:

"All it takes is a month to learn, and then it's all muscle memory. There's no need to implement NADT really since there's no situation where you'd want to miss a wiggle."


Does this make sense to you?

 

[kupo15]

I think I solved the argument, hear me out:

- Those who oppose the NADT claims that AD is not OP
- Kupo, who agrees with the NADT, claims that wiggling is easy, and that even when it is put in, all you have to do is learn how to wiggle and then you can AD just the same way...

Do you guys remember the argument about whether we should give the game auto L-cancel? Do you guys remember that in the end, the argument that was:

"All it takes is a month to learn, and then it's all muscle memory. There's no need to implement it really since there's no situation where you'd want to miss an L-cancel."

Now, listen to this. For wiggling:

"All it takes is a month to learn, and then it's all muscle memory. There's no need to implement NADT really since there's no situation where you'd want to miss a wiggle."


Does this make sense to you?

Wrong. The l canceling argument was that there is never a reason why you wouldn't l cancel, not that you would never miss it. With NADT, this does not apply because when the opponent pressures you to remove the option of wiggling, then risking the wiggle is very hard. Why? Because when you wiggle then air dodge, you will NEVER get the same effective air dodge as if you were to just air dodge out. So this also means that wiggling is not the best option all the time making it completely different than l canceling.

Nice try

 

[GHNeko]

inb4Kupo


EDIT: Ahh ****. Ninja'd. inafter Kupo. >:

 

[storm92]

inb4Kupo

Fail.

10failedinb4kupos

 

[Rkey]

Wrong. The l canceling argument was that there is never a reason why you wouldn't l cancel, not that you would never miss it. With NADT, this does not apply because when the opponent pressures you to remove the option of wiggling, then risking the wiggle is very hard. Why? Because when you wiggle then air dodge, you will NEVER get the same effective air dodge as if you were to just air dodge out. So this also means that wiggling is not the best option all the time making it completely different than l canceling.

Nice try

How would u pressure someone to remove the option of wiggling? And also: of course you could have the same effect, if I understood how this wiggling works. Aren't you capable to exit tumble-animation as quickly as hitstun ends?

 

[cAm8ooo]

inb4Kupo


EDIT: Ahh ****. Ninja'd. inafter Kupo. >:

Get **** on Neko

 

[CountKaiser]

I really don't see a problem with AD. It isn't all that appealing, really. Then again, which characters rely on an AD instead of jumping or attacking right out of hitstun?

 

[kupo15]

How would u pressure someone to remove the option of wiggling? And also: of course you could have the same effect, if I understood how this wiggling works. Aren't you capable to exit tumble-animation as quickly as hitstun ends?

You remove the option to wiggle by having your next attack land at around the same time you were to exit hitstun (the 1st frame of tumble)

Technically, you can wiggle out of the first frame of tumble but it is humanly impossible for several reasons:

Pretty sure you can't buffer a wiggle (remember, wiggle is a misnomer, you basically tap once)

You would have to know exactly when you are in tumble instead of hitstun and the majority of the time, the hitstun animation looks very similar to the tumble. So having it not be very clear when you can wiggle out in addition with the pressures of the match also have a powerful effect

I'm not sure about this next one but there maybe a punishment to wiggling early. Like, if you wiggle in hitstun, your next Tap won't register and you need to tap twice. I am not sure on this though. But even if this wasn't the case, if your stick was one side when you went into tumble, there is NO way that you could tap the other side AND air dodge (which has 2/3 3 or 4 vulnerable frames at the beginning) in 1 frame or faster than simply pressing the air dodges button.

I really don't see a problem with AD. It isn't all that appealing, really. Then again, which characters rely on an AD instead of jumping or attacking right out of hitstun?

Remember, I'm not concerned with predicting and punishing. What I am concerned and what makes it OP is how drastically your position changes before and after. I'm sure you would agree that being comboed at the top of the stage as opposed to a foot from the stage is a BIG difference. Well, 1 air dodge lasts long enough to get you this close to ground in which your punishment has been drastically reduced. That is a little OP how you can easily change your position to maximize a lot of punishment and there is nothing the opponent can do to stop it. How do you stop a ghost?

 

[Rkey]

You remove the option to wiggle by having your next attack land at around the same time you were to exit hitstun (the 1st frame of tumble)

Technically, you can wiggle out of the first frame of tumble but it is humanly impossible for several reasons:

Pretty sure you can't buffer a wiggle (remember, wiggle is a misnomer, you basically tap once)

You would have to know exactly when you are in tumble instead of hitstun and the majority of the time, the hitstun animation looks very similar to the tumble. So having it not be very clear when you can wiggle out in addition with the pressures of the match also have a powerful effect

I'm not sure about this next one but there maybe a punishment to wiggling early. Like, if you wiggle in hitstun, your next Tap won't register and you need to tap twice. I am not sure on this though. But even if this wasn't the case, if your stick was one side when you went into tumble, there is NO way that you could tap the other side AND air dodge (which has 2/3 3 or 4 vulnerable frames at the beginning) in 1 frame or faster than simply pressing the air dodges button.

So it basically comes down to the fact that we get a tiny bit more hitstun?

I don't like it when there's unneeded pain when playing a game. I remember that when I played melee I watched a lot of fox pro videos, and I decided to main him. However, the pain and suffering of shorthopping (what was the window, like 2 frames where you had to release the jump button not to full-hop? '>_>) and turn-around waveshine and things like that made me practice untill I had blisters on my thumbs (I'm dead serious). I switched to samus later on, and I'm telling you right now, what's the point? Forcing everyone to learn a new AT to get the same result as you had before (since I understood that you wanted to add NADT and lower the hitsun slightly) does NOT make sense.

The only viable argument for this would be that making an AD will take slightly more time than any other action needed, and if that's what we want, can't we just simply add two extra frames of hitstun which only matters for the AD, meaning that you can do an attack or jump during those 2 frames but not AD? I'm against this too, but if we have to compromise, I could settle with this, I guess...

No, I couldn't now that I think about it, sry.

No offense Kupo, I just want b+ to be good and I'm letting you know my opinion. I don't want to upset anyone here.

 

[kupo15]

But its not adding a stupid AT. Your other out of tumble options are not affected meaning you can painlessly attack or jump or fast fall from tumble and skip wiggling altogether. It all comes down to whether or not your opponent pressures you. If they are not, then you can take your time tapping once to escape and if they really are not pressuring you, you can even just use an aerial. IMO, I don't see how using an aerial to escape tumbling is any different than air dodging when its safe to do so. It in fact is better because its quicker.

I want b+ to be great and I think this is the way to do it

 

[Rkey]

But its not adding a stupid AT. Your other out of tumble options are not affected meaning you can painlessly attack or jump or fast fall from tumble and skip wiggling altogether. It all comes down to whether or not your opponent pressures you. If they are not, then you can take your time tapping once to escape and if they really are not pressuring you, you can even just use an aerial. IMO, I don't see how using an aerial to escape tumbling is any different than air dodging when its safe to do so. It in fact is better because its quicker.

I want b+ to be great and I think this is the way to do it

I still don't get why I should have to wiggle, and let's say you're being juggled by ness headbut. You dissapear at the top of the screen and you know that if you can't escape the next headbut, you're done for. However, Ness is "Too slow™", and you get out of hitstun. In this case, I can't do an aerial and THEN do my AD. I would want to do it right away, but without wiggling I can't do that, therefore I have to do this weird stuff and then AD. It doesn't add anything to the game besides from what i said before, and then my other option is actually better even though it's still not good.

You're saying that adding NADT won't be a big deal, then why should we?

 

[CloneHat]

NADT means that heavies will get hit by that ONE attack they could have dodged, possibly leading into a grab, starting a whole other combo.

 

[kupo15]

I still don't get why I should have to wiggle, and let's say you're being juggled by ness headbut. You dissapear at the top of the screen and you know that if you can't escape the next headbut, you're done for. However, Ness is "Too slow™", and you get out of hitstun. In this case, I can't do an aerial and THEN do my AD. I would want to do it right away, but without wiggling I can't do that, therefore I have to do this weird stuff and then AD. It doesn't add anything to the game besides from what i said before, and then my other option is actually better even though it's still not good.

You're saying that adding NADT won't be a big deal, then why should we?

I don't completely understand your example. "I can't do an aerial..." what do you mean? Also, it all depends on how much time you have before the uair lands. Don't forget you could also fast fall so that the uair misses which is instantaneous.

NADT does add to the game but the I was saying how wiggling isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. Keeping pits side b going...now THAT is a pain and more painful than wiggling.

But you tell me. How do you prevent someone from air dodging when they are invincible? Unless, of course, you want your entire brawl+ combo game to be nothing BUT hitstun activate combos as opposed to seamlessly interweaving true combos and strings as one whole.

NADT means that heavies will get hit by that ONE attack they could have dodged, possibly leading into a grab, starting a whole other combo.

Completely false. If this is your concern, then your hitstun is way too high.

High hitstun is a crutch because combos are easy to perform. A lower hitstun and NADT results in combos that require good DI prediction and outsmarting your opponent.