COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[grim mouser]

Haha, that would be great. Unless it would cause another freeze glitch.

 

[Doval]

Hey guys. I was fiddling around with Debug Pause to check out Brawl's Perfect Shield mechanics, and I noticed something pretty important. The Shield Stun code isn't affecting Perfect Shielding. That is, the stun times when you Perfect Shield in Brawl+ are the same as they'd be if you shielded normally in vanilla Brawl.

Also, does anyone know why the Debug Pause code randomly toggles between registering and not registering Z input when I try to advance a frame? I'm getting arbitrary amounts of time in which trying to advance a frame makes my character start a grab or air dodge, and it's really frustrating. I'm using a Wavebird if that matters.

 

[GHNeko]

Perfect Shielding isnt effective by the shield stun code because Perfect shielding suffers no shield stun at all. So upon PSing a move, with perfect timing and reaction, you can act in a matter of frames that is so little, you're pretty much instant. :V

Only thing you have to wait for is the shield dropping animation.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I can't remember is I asked this before. Me trying to go back to see if I asked this would be a pain with my dial-up....

Is it possible to make a soft reset code for the stage select screen when a stage is being loaded, like how it worked in Melee? I know it's not that necessary, but it would be handy.

 

[Doval]

Perfect Shielding isnt effective by the shield stun code because Perfect shielding suffers no shield stun at all. So upon PSing a move, with perfect timing and reaction, you can act in a matter of frames that is so little, you're pretty much instant. :V

Only thing you have to wait for is the shield dropping animation.

Not trying to be a **** here but this isn't right at all. It didn't work that way in Melee, and unless Debug Pause code is lying to me, it doesn't work this way in vBrawl either. If I Perfect Shield Mario's jab, after the hitlag there's 1 frame before my shield drops - which is how much shield stun the move gives in vBrawl. If I Perfect Shield Fox's n-air, there's 3 frames before I can drop shield, which is the stun time the move gives in vBrawl. If I Perfect Shield Ganon's F-air, there are 5 frames before I can drop shield and attack. Which is, again, the amount of shield stun that move gives in vBrawl. If you Perfect Shield Samus's Charge Shot, there are 8 frames. But these numbers stayed exactly the same in Brawl+ even though the shield stun more than doubled.

Perfect Shielding only:
*Blocks the attack while taking no damage to your shield.
*Blocks the attack while taking no knockback.
*Gets rid of the remaining frames that you're guaranteed to hold your shield for (normally, if your character holds shield for a minimum of 6 frames when you press the shield button, and you block an attack on frame 2, you still have to wait 4 more frames *after the stun* to drop shield. This is not the case with Perfect Shielding; all the frames you were supposed to wait after the stun are dropped.)
*Allow you to use any attack during the 7 frames it takes to drop your shield, assuming of course that you did react and dropped your shield.

It does not remove the shield stun, though obviously this was negligible in vanilla Brawl to begin with.

Naturally this is a minor issue since, as it is now, Perfect Shielding only has a 1 frame window of opportunity in Brawl+, making it very difficult, but it's still wrong, so I figured I'd report it.

 

[GHNeko]

Not trying to be a **** here but this isn't right at all. It didn't work that way in Melee, and unless Debug Pause code is lying to me, it doesn't work this way in vBrawl either. If I Perfect Shield Mario's jab, after the hitlag there's 1 frame before my shield drops - which is how much shield stun the move gives in vBrawl. If I Perfect Shield Fox's n-air, there's 3 frames before I can drop shield, which is the stun time the move gives in vBrawl. If I Perfect Shield Ganon's F-air, there are 5 frames before I can drop shield and attack. Which is, again, the amount of shield stun that move gives in vBrawl. If you Perfect Shield Samus's Charge Shot, there are 8 frames. But these numbers stayed exactly the same in Brawl+ even though the shield stun more than doubled.

Perfect Shielding only:
*Blocks the attack while taking no damage to your shield.
*Blocks the attack while taking no knockback.
*Gets rid of the remaining frames that you're guaranteed to hold your shield for (normally, if your character holds shield for a minimum of 6 frames when you press the shield button, and you block an attack on frame 2, you still have to wait 4 more frames *after the stun* to drop shield. This is not the case with Perfect Shielding; all the frames you were supposed to wait after the stun are dropped.)
*Allow you to use any attack during the 7 frames it takes to drop your shield, assuming of course that you did react and dropped your shield.

It does not remove the shield stun, though obviously this was negligible in vanilla Brawl to begin with.

Naturally this is a minor issue since, as it is now, Perfect Shielding only has a 1 frame window of opportunity in Brawl+, making it very difficult, but it's still wrong, so I figured I'd report it.

I stand corrected. :V

I guess then that means PSing follows something different than normal shielding, or maybe the PS is write-protected. Who knows. PSing always seemed to have no stun but that was simply with the human eye. :V

 

[Doval]

Well, considering how little stun vBrawl has (seriously 5 frames for something as beefy as Ganon's f-air?) and considering it didn't get affected by the shield stun increase, I could see why anyone would think that. At first I thought so too, but I had my suspicions so I decided to check different attacks last night.

Offensively, it's just meant to give more out of shield options without the lag of dropping your shield, which is part of why (if it gets fixed) I'd like to see its window relaxed to 2 frames, so that it's still harder than vBrawl but not frame perfect. But until it's fixed I think I'm content to leave it at 1 frame.

 

[GHNeko]

So basically, add shield stun to PSing?

 

[grim mouser]

I think he means the stun on PS should be removed?

 

[GHNeko]

Wait wait. He said PSing gives the same stun like normal shielding in Brawl?

Didn't we double the amount of shield stun that you recieve in Brawl+ through normal shielding?

Did PSing in Brawl give you half the shield stun that normal shields produced.

 

[Doval]

Did PSing in Brawl give you half the shield stun that normal shields produced.

I'm getting the same shield stun with normal shields and perfect shielding in vBrawl. That is, I'm getting 8 frames of shield stun when shielding Samus's Charge Shot normally, and 8 frames when Perfect Shielding it, for example. But in Brawl+, I'm getting 21 frames of shield stun normally, and the same 8 frames of stun when I perfect shield. So perfect shielding does have shield stun already, but it isn't being affected by the code that increased shield stun. So right now Perfect Shielding is giving a frame advantage it shouldn't be giving.

Additionally, it occurs to me that if the conditions for Perfect Shielding could be changed so that it triggers like it did in Melee, the window of opportunity could be relaxed back to its original value (3 frames; which is still 1 less than Melee's 4 frames). Magus told me in the Brawl+ 4.1B thread that in Melee, the window of opportunity for Perfect Shield started when you clicked the L/R buttons, even if you couldn't shield at the time; so holding down the Shield button while stunned would never result in an accidental Perfect Shield if an attack hit your shield while it was coming up after you came out of stun. In Brawl, the window of opportunity starts when your shield comes up, regardless of when you clicked the shield button.

He also said that to Perfect Shield in Melee the attack had to strike the center of your shield, while in Brawl you can Perfect Shield with any part of the shield, but I believe this would be a non-issue when it comes to deliberate perfect shielding since most opponents aim to strike you, not the edge of your shield. In practice I think the only thing that this affected was making it easier to Perfect Shield projectiles.

But I would understand if there are more important codes to work on than changing the Perfect Shield requirements. I think the Shield Stun thing is a real problem, though.

 

[GHNeko]

Tbh, I prefer PSing with little to no stun.

IIRC, there was talk about having a PS take shield damage so that it becomes something that isnt abusable.

 

[Doval]

Having no stun would be cool, but then it'd give such an advantage that the person doing the Perfect Shielding can always counterattack. Even if you made it so that you took shield damage on PS, you'd probably still have to keep the window of opportunity super tight, so it can't be used as a guaranteed counter. Combined with the fact that the defender would get no knockback, so would be at a prime position to use any attack, it'd be very powerful.

If PS doesn't reduce stun, then attacks that are safe will stay safe; at worst they could get jabbed. Unsafe attacks would be subject to worse punishment, since the defender could, say, down smash or forward smash instead of being restricted to grab/up smash/up B, but you wouldn't be punishing an attacker that's using safe attacks, and I think that's important. It would add more options without breaking anything, and you'd be able to loosen up the window of opportunity slightly as well since it's not that abusable.

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why we would make it so that PSing would still subject the person to shield damage. :V

 

[CountKaiser]

If that's the case, why PS?

 

[Doval]

I just don't think shield damage is a big enough trade-off. I don't see people getting dangerously close to a shield break in a real match; and if the Perfect Shield is giving them free counterattacks due to the big frame advantage, they'll have plenty of time to recover their shield after they knock their opponent away.

 

[VietGeek]

If that's the case, why PS?

frame advantage?

I mean...that's kinda the real point to it. =V

 

[Magus420]

I'm getting the same shield stun with normal shields and perfect shielding in vBrawl.

This is a clip from vBrawl. The stats for Luigi's Jab 1 are 6 hitlag, 2 shieldstun, and a -1 shield hitlag differential (when it hits a shield the defender is in hitlag for 1 less frame than the attacker).

Sheik begins the grab before Luigi even finishes hitlag, and being a -1 SHD, there's definitely 0 shieldstun here and not the normal 2 frames.

 

[Doval]

Magus: I don't want you to think I'm calling you a liar or anything but...I'm trying to reproduce this right now using Debug Pause, and I'm not getting the -1 differential when I shield Luigi's jab. I'm getting 6 hit lag and 1 shield stun; and the same results when Perfect Shielding. Sheik is keeping her shield up for only 1 frame after the jab regardless of whether it's perfect shield or normal shielding, and the grab is coming out after that 1 frame when Perfect Shielding. This may be a bit brash for me to say, but maybe there's a slight error in the recordings, or there was a miscount? At least, is there any reason why Debug Pause might be untrustworthy? I double check the hit lag frames by Smash DI'ing; it's quite evident because the glow around the shield that appears when the attack hits stays there while I Smash DI away, and suddenly shifts to the shield's new position after the hit lag ends.

I'm also fairly sure I didn't miscount Fox's n-air, Ganon's f-air or Samus's Charge Shot. I'm really, truly getting the same amount of hit lag and shield stun for both normal shielding and perfect shielding in vBrawl. If you can, use the Debug Pause code and see for yourself.

 

[Magus420]

That frame where Sheik begins the grab is frame 2 of Luigi's Jab 1. I know that move pretty well xD http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199907

 

[Doval]

I don't doubt you; but we're obviously getting different results here. No matter how I recount it, I'm not getting this hit lag differential when shielding (and, in fact, I've never seen a move that has it, besides electric moves, because their x1.5 hit lag multiplier doesn't apply when the hit is shielded). Luigi is hitting on Frame 2, both have the same amount of hit lag (5 or 6 frames, depending on whether you include the frame in which the attack strikes; I don't, but it seems you do), Sheik is in Shield Stun on Frame 3 and can start a move on Frame 4 of Luigi's jab.

Obviously there's an error either on your recordings, or the way Debug Pause is handling the frame advance (I wouldn't know about either one.) I'm just telling you the results I'm getting. I'm honestly leaning towards Debug Pause being more trustworthy, simply because I've never seen an attack where the attacker and defender have different hit lag, neither in Melee nor vBrawl.

 

[Magus420]

Sheik's F-Tilt has a +3 SHD. Marth's tipped dash attack has a SHD of -3 while the untipped is +2. I've observed the -1 on the jab using the frame advance myself before, and I'm quite sure the recording is fine, especially with the game clock being there as well. I don't really know why you would be getting different results

 

[Doval]

Ok, I see. For some reason, the hit lag differential isn't applied in Training Mode. The bit about being able to see the game clock tipped me off, I went to Brawl mode and there you go.

However, two things: while I'm getting 5 frames of hit lag instead of 6 now, Sheik's Hit Lag is ending at the same time as Luigi's. Secondly, I'm getting 0 shield stun on Luigi's first jab regardless of whether it's normal shielded or perfect shielded. So, yes, you were right in that there's 0 stun at work here, but wrong in that it's not the Perfect Shield doing it.

I was getting 13 frames of hit lag (by my count; I don't count the frame the move connects) on Samus's Charge Shot and 8 frames of shield stun in vBrawl's training mode for both normal and perfect shielding. I went over to Brawl mode and now I'm getting 14 frames of lag and 9 frames of stun, but both shielding types are still getting the same amount of hit lag/stun. In Brawl+ (Brawl mode) I'm getting 7 frames of hit lag, but only 8 frames of stun when Perfect Shielding and 21 frames of stun when normal shielding.

So I was wrong about shield hit lag differential but power shield is still not working as it should.

 

[Tin Man]

ZZ = Damage Ratio
Just move the decimal place over and act as if its in hex.
For Example, if you want
.8 = 08
1.6 = 10
2.0 = 14

I want 1.0, what number do I put in ?????

 

[Doval]

Should be 0A. So 1.0 -> 10, and 10 in hex is A.

Hex counts as such: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A (10), B (11), C (12), D (13), E (14), F (15). On 16, the first digit becomes 0 and the second digit increases by 1, similar to how in decimal one counts from 0 to 9 and then adds 1 to the next digit on 10. So 16 in hex is 10, 17 in hex is 11, and so on.

 

[grim mouser]

Has shield drop frame time been factored in here? Not sure of the mechanics of that with PS, but it's best to eliminate any possible errors.

 

[Doval]

Factored in how? The question is somewhat ambiguous...but no, I'm not accidentally counting it towards the shield stun time if that's what you mean. You can tell when the shield stun is happening and when the release lag starts because the shield stays visible while you're stunned, but disappears on the first frame of the release lag (assuming you didn't block on the first few frames of shielding, since unless you PS you're forced to leave your shield up 6-7 frames no matter what. But I always made sure to leave the shield up a short while when testing to avoid problems with that.)

 

[grim mouser]

K. Just making sure that was noticed in the frame count, since I can't tell the difference between stun/drop/hitlag in the clip very well. xD

 

[shanus]

Frame data request here:

I need to know the exact number of frames from when diddy is hit out of barrel in the air to when he can act out of it.

 

[Doval]

Wouldn't that depend on what hit him and at what % Diddy was?

 

[GHNeko]

I would image 0% as a starting point.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

I have something you might want to add to your edit agenda. The ability to just hold down A and do the jab combo. I find it completely stupid and not at all pro competitive that if you are within jab range of characters like Ike and Snake that they can just hold down A and they WILL get you in a full combo, even if you dodge, because the first attack just keeps repeating until it lands. I have seen Ike combo a sonic from 20 to 60 just holding A and landing the first hit but missing the second so that he repeats the first attack again. How is that competitive or involve any sort of skill? It's even more excessively stupid in B+ for Snake who does I believe 18% per combo, it does not stale, and it has killing power at around 140%.

 

[grim mouser]

1) That's what the No Auto Jabs code is for. However, it's not in the Brawlplusery's set. You can add it manually if you want.

2) SDI should help you get out of jabs. This is part of the reason hitlag was increased.

 

[CloneHat]

If it didn't wreck Pika, I would love to have it in. Though Foot, the same thing you complained about can also be done manually, so it wouldn't make the difference you're looking for.

 

[V-K]

1) That's what the No Auto Jabs code is for. However, it's not in the Brawlplusery's set. You can add it manually if you want.

2) SDI should help you get out of jabs. This is part of the reason hitlag was increased.

Why isn´t it? Auto Jab sucks.

Is there a PAL no auto jab code?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Why isn´t it?

ANSWER:

If it didn't wreck Pika, I would love to have it in...

Read before you post...
It makes Pikachu's A-A-A multi-headbutts around as rapid as Snake u-tilt spamming...seriously...

 

[V-K]

auto jab sucks anyway

but I guess there is none for PAL...

 

[CountKaiser]

No auto jabs ruins some jabs, such as Pika's and wolf's.

 

[thesage]

Lucas d-tilt is really weird to do consecutively without buffer...

 

[shanus]

I'm not saying with hitstun & hitlag, he has a huge lag tumble state following that that I need to know the frame data for.