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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
and who the f*** might you be? it's sure as hell is my call to decide when MY code gets posted, not some random guy.
His annoyance at the codes being witheld is understandable. Although I can see the reason for this in the first place.

I for one, think the bad blood should die. We don't need another community split.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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Jul 6, 2005
Messages
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Raleigh, NC
You wanna own the codes you wrote?

Are you that egotistic?

Richard Stallman would kick you in the shins about now.
 

Blank Mauser

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Jul 16, 2008
Messages
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You wanna own the codes you wrote?

Are you that egotistic?

Richard Stallman would kick you in the shins about now.
Considering a lot of codes don't have to be made at all and PK does them of his own free will, I would say its best to respect his calls on the use of them.

How is this any different from owning anything else you create? Simply because modifications somehow have this unwritten rule of always being open-source? Its still material he took the time to write and spreading it should be of his own discretion.
 

Thinkaman

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Right, he can release the code in any form he wishes. He, like everyone else in the community so far, has released his codes publicly. I, like everyone else in the community so far, have given him full credit for such. (As was just posted.)
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Right, he can release the code in any form he wishes. He, like everyone else in the community so far, has released his codes publicly. I, like everyone else in the community so far, have given him full credit for such. (As was just posted.)
So why haven't you heeded his wishes?
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Something isn't quite right -- Thinkaman, you said that Paprika gave you the throw modifier and explained how to use it. Then you posted it, giving credit to him, yes, and then he is confused and outraged that you have it / posted it.

Clearly there's a very large misunderstanding going on here. We need to get that sorted out, but regardless, he's asking you to edit it out for now, and I think it would be best to acknowledge his request.

As for the matter of credit on codes, I'm not sure why Amazing Ampharos is making it so difficult -- just post the text files using the names the coders use with the author's names next to them. Suggesting that this established method is an "alternative" format and needn't be distributed as such (the download text still lacks proper names or authors) is incorrect. This is really a small issue, but all of this foot-dragging to acknowledge a fair and simple request has made it into something much larger than it needs to be.

Perhaps if we can get that cleared up then PK might be more inclined to accept your usage of his throw modifier.

I hope we can get this sorted out.
 

Thinkaman

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So why haven't you heeded his wishes?
What wishes? He PM'd me, and in my reply I asked if he did not wish to take credit for it or if the previous public release I saw was a mistake. He did not reply as to either, so I told him I would err on the side of caution and continue to credit him. After not getting a reply for a long enough time, I have decided that since it is sleeping hours in the Netherlands and not replying is understandable, the best course of action would be to take down the engine code temporarily in case it WAS a mistake on the part of the Brawl+ team to release it.

Something isn't quite right -- Thinkaman, you said that Paprika gave you the throw modifier and explained how to use it. Then you posted it, giving credit to him, yes, and then he is confused and outraged that you have it / posted it.

Clearly there's a very large misunderstanding going on here. We need to get that sorted out, but regardless, he's asking you to edit it out for now, and I think it would be best to acknowledge his request.
The code was publicly released; I recognized the code as probably being the one found by Paprika that Almas had posted about, even though there was no credit given. Since this has been a touchy issue lately, I thought giving him credit for the code would be entirely appropriate.

If Paprika does not wish to take credit for this code (which I doubt, since he deserves it fully), I will remove his name from it. Otherwise, I will restore my accessible posting of the code to the community. It is not right for anything to go uncredited.

The sooner this is resolved, the sooner I can get on with my stated objective of collecting throw data.
 

MK26

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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
-___-

He used his USB Gecko to read into the GCT file...by 'publicly released', he means 'publicly released in a form where the explicit intention is to not release the individual code'

EDIT: and when he says 'shared with me', he means 'shared with the community in an inaccesible file format that should be read ut not edited, but I'll try to twist taht around to make it sound like he specifically gave me the code with his permission to use it and post it on swf'
 

CountKaiser

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Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,370
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In space
So lemme get this straight.

Thinkaman took the most recent gct, and essentially reversed engineered it in order to retrieve a code that was in beta stages and was not meant to be released to the public?

This would explain why the newest gct initially didn't have a txt to go with it, the wbr didn't want people to see the throw mod.

If Thinkaman wanted the mod that badly, why couldn't he just ask the wbr for it? If they said "No, you can't have it yet." then he should respect their wishes. Although, in all honesty, it belongs to PK since he made it.

As for people who think that PK shouldn't own something that he himself made, go **** yourselves. Seriously, coding is as much an intellectual property as a book or a food item or whatever. If the creator doesn't want it released to the public because it isn't finished, or they only want a few people to use it, then their wishes should be respected because it belongs to them, not to the public.

More than likely, Thinkaman won't find himself to be in the wrong because the code was sued in the gct,and he feels that anything in it is fair game.

I'd like to say that this is wrong, for the same reason that reverse engineering anything is considered illegal. When a person gives you an executable, they don't want you going through it to figure out the source code behind it. The public is not meant to mess with it. This is essentially the same thing. an executable (gct) was found, and was reverse engineered so that someone could find the source code (txt) to it.

In this regard, Thinkaman can be considered a thief, except he states that PK made it, so it really isn't stealing. However, he still obtained the code via illicit means, which has caused all this ruckus, so it's till wrong. PK didn't want the code released to public, so thinkaman should remove it from here posthaste.

Thinkaman, to address what objections you may have to this, remember that the code is not yours and that you should respect the wishes of the original creator.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
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North Carolina
Although the main weight of this entire argument hinges on the fact that Thinkaman not only stole the code but deliberately posted it against the wishes of the creator, do try to realize one thing:

Once you intentionally disrespect and piss off the people who create these codes, do you think they're going to continue making them? What are you going to do once the main coders who make Brawl+ and Bbrawl possible leave simply because you cannot acknowledge a fair and simple request that takes no effort on your part?

Paprika_Killer has stated multiple times that he does not mind either publicly releasing codes or allowing the Bbrawl developers full access to the codes, given that AA properly titles the codes. Sure, you could go ahead and try to make your own throw mod if he hadn't posted his, but that would take dozens of hours of coding, testing, and debugging. Considering that you could easily fix this with five minutes of work by respecting a fair and logical request which has been stated with no anger or hatred multiple times, I seriously do not see (aside from a stubborn refusal to acknowledge that the coders make these projects possible) any reason why Thinkaman or AA cannot simply follow the basic rules of "ethics" which they seem to put so much pride in.
 

Arkaether

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It doesn't matter if he didn't claim it to be his own, theft is still theft.

Thinkaman can pretend to be a Robin Hood, trying to appear as a hero of justice who gives to the poor public the fruits and treasures of the elitist closed-source coding community, but the fact remains that it is still theft no matter what, and he's not helping the BBrawl image at all.

I don't think many people here have been part of a programming community, which is why a lot of people don't understand exactly how severe this is. In the programming community, a beta testing program is often released to raise interest and to help polish the end result, and reverse engineering it is one of the most ethically bankrupt things you can do. It is regarded as stealing the hard work of the coder, no matter whether you give him credit or not, because reverse engineering a program is the same as picking the lock to their safe, making records of all their important personal documents, and then saying that it wasn't really "theft" because you didn't take the original, or that the safe was "in plain view". Honestly, reverse engineering something is seriously one of THE WORST things you can do, even if you only reverse engineer it FOR YOURSELF. To actually release the contents to the public is beyond unethical, it is simply and utterly one of THE worst things you can POSSIBLY do.

Honestly speaking, Thinkaman and AA, I actually respected you two for creating such a project as BBrawl. Although I may not have liked it, I respected the time and effort you put into it. I began losing a bit of respect after the entire fiasco with AA refusing to acknowledge proper credit, but I still thought of BBrawl as a decent project that I would support even if I did not agree with it.

Now, however, I have not one single resemblance of respect left for Thinkaman, AA, BBrawl, or, in fact, anything affiliated with any of those. This is seriously way, waaaaaay overboard. This is simply just obscene.

I'm not even going into how Thinkaman not only blatantly lied, but pretended he was in the right for doing so.

And don't give me any of this "codes aren't the coder's property" nonsense, anyone who works at all in law or copyright could see that for the idiotic sham that it is. Users are legally entitled to modify copyrighted works for personal enjoyment, as established by Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., and such works as such are the property of the coder and not Nintendo. Please don't try raising bull**** points about things you don't even understand.
 

proteininja

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Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
243
Ahhhh...but Arkaether essentially the .gct file is just 1's and 0's on a computer somewhere. This actually makes PK's creation just a very very large number. Can you copyright the decimal number 10 or 11? Then why should you be able to copyright the binary number 101010010101001011...?

Also, I think we need to call into question copyright law in general, as it does not actually promote progress as intended. There is no copyright law in the constitution. There is only a line that says congress has the power to make laws that protect property in the interest of promoting progress.

Does not releasing an unfinished mod to an ocean of eager coders promote the overall progress of the project?



In Conclusion, everything I have just said is utter BullS***, and Arkaether is 1000% correct. I took "Ethics in Computer Science" last semester, and wanted to have some fun.

Just to make it absolutely clear. Thinkaman's actions are extremely reprehensible, and he should respect whatever PK asks of him after this point. Out of shame if nothing else.
 

Arkaether

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Don't even get me started on how absurd the current implementation of copyright law is, I'll go on for hours.

(As for the very large number thing, you could argue that all objects are very small atoms or all books are very large random assortments of letters, etc, etc.)

Though you did make a certain point I'd like to address:
Does not releasing an unfinished mod to an ocean of eager coders promote the overall progress of the project?
The answer to this is no, because the unfinished mod is, well, simply put, unfinished, and as such, any works which come from using it will doubtlessly be flawed in certain ways. In fact, if Thinkaman had simply thought for a second, he would've realized that releasing it publicly results only in harming the community as he is willingly spreading a flawed and buggy program rather than respecting the COMMUNITY and waiting until AFTER the complete version is finished before committing his ethically bankrupt act. Have you no shame, Thinkaman?
 

proteininja

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Apr 18, 2009
Messages
243
Don't even get me started on how absurd the current implementation of copyright law is, I'll go on for hours.

(As for the very large number thing, you could argue that all objects are very small atoms or all books are very large random assortments of letters, etc, etc.)

Though you did make a certain point I'd like to address:


The answer to this is no, because the unfinished mod is, well, simply put, unfinished, and as such, any works which come from using it will doubtlessly be flawed in certain ways. In fact, if Thinkaman had simply thought for a second, he would've realized that releasing it publicly results only in harming the community as he is willingly spreading a flawed and buggy program rather than respecting the COMMUNITY and waiting until AFTER the complete version is finished before committing his ethically bankrupt act. Have you no shame, Thinkaman?
Preaching to the choir.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
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North Carolina
Oh, sorry. No offense meant, just making sure to cover an argument that could potentially be raised later on. Nothing against you personally, since I know you were joking on that post.
 

cobaltblue

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Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
455
Arkaether while I agree with most of your points, I fail to see how Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc validates your ownership of any of the codes. I only read a few internet sites of the case but the only thing I see that the case proved was modification of Nintendo games falls under fair use and because it could not be proven that Galoob had any plans to make profit off the modified games.

But as said else where, yea this guy is being a douche for not even wanting to fully credit the code developers using the original code names.
 

Arkaether

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No, the point of Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc was that it established the right of the user to modify a game he had bought. The ruling was that cheat codes/hacks were, in fact, not a derivative work from the original, but if it was to be considered as such, it would fall under the fair usage policy.

Basically, since the user holds the right to modify the content, any modifications he creates from the original content is his right, and thus not owned by Nintendo. And if it's not owned by Nintendo, and the user is the one who created it...well, who do you think it belongs to?
 

MaxThunder

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Norway=)...
Ahhhh...but Arkaether essentially the .gct file is just 1's and 0's on a computer somewhere. This actually makes PK's creation just a very very large number. Can you copyright the decimal number 10 or 11? Then why should you be able to copyright the binary number 101010010101001011...?
uh... what?... so if someone make a big computer game that takes years of planning and programming and testing and etc. and then releases it he cant copyright it cause computers see it just as a very large number?... and if thing were this way... how many games would we have today then? who would take the time to make games for people?
 

Arkaether

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uh... what?... so if someone make a big computer game that takes years of planning and programming and testing and etc. and then releases it he cant copyright it cause computers see it just as a very large number?... and if thing were this way... how many games would we have today then? who would take the time to make games for people?
MaxThunder, it was a joke.
 

cobaltblue

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Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
455
No, the point of Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc was that it established the right of the user to modify a game he had bought. The ruling was that cheat codes/hacks were, in fact, not a derivative work from the original, but if it was to be considered as such, it would fall under the fair usage policy.

Basically, since the user holds the right to modify the content, any modifications he creates from the original content is his right, and thus not owned by Nintendo. And if it's not owned by Nintendo, and the user is the one who created it...well, who do you think it belongs to?
Right, the user was ruled to be able to modify the game and it was proven Nintendo could not stop them due to the fact Galoob was not modifying the game in such a way that the modified game could be made permanent and sold for a profit. Stated in the articles I read I see absolutely nothing about the codes belonging to them nor anything that leads up to your point. If I had a game genie or gameshark manual at hand and it stated that they own any and all codes created by users who used their device, then I'd be more inclined to agree.

It also does not help that these forums are constructed in such a way that they show fear of Nintendo closing them down due to the B+ project in general.
 

Arkaether

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Right, the user was ruled to be able to modify the game and it was proven Nintendo could not stop them due to the fact Galoob was not modifying the game in such a way that the modified game could be made permanent and sold for a profit. Stated in the articles I read I see absolutely nothing about the codes belonging to them nor anything that leads up to your point. If I had a game genie or gameshark manual at hand and it stated that they own any and all codes created by users who used their device, then I'd be more inclined to agree.

It also does not help that these forums are constructed in such a way that they show fear of Nintendo closing them down due to the B+ project in general.
It was ruled that
1) The user had a right to modify the game
2) The modified game was not a derivative work
3) It is not a derivative work, and it does not violate copyright law

The modifications are not classified under derivative works and therefore are not Nintendo's property. They are not Nintendo's intellectual property, and the user is the one who created them. I do not know how to spell it out easier than that.

Seriously, rather than "reading articles", perhaps you should actually look a bit into copyright law, the case documents, and actual law?

As for your second paragraph, ever heard of "being cautious"?
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
712
Hello everybody.

First of all, let me make very clear that this post is my own opinion; I don't represent either Amazing Ampharos or Thinkaman. However, I'm a programmer and a scientist, and this whole code credit debate blows my mind. I could take a conventional approach and reply to each of the posts over the last few pages in turn, but let's face it, that's not going to be very effective. I don't want to be confrontational; I just want to get certain points across.

This essay is divided into four parts. In the first part, I show that the paprika killer, zxeon, et al., are hypocrites, and feigning indignation. In the second part, I show that the doctrine of “codes as property” is patent nonsense. In the third part, I discuss the “reverse engineering” controversy regarding the throw modifier code. In the final part, I respond to the various emotional appeals that are being thrown around.

PART 1: A STORY

Instead of a point by point analysis, I'd like to start off by telling a story. This story takes us back to the end of last year, well before AA or Thinkaman had even conceived of Balanced Brawl. AA and I have always been academics. In December 2008, we observed that various basic Brawl game mechanics were still shrouded in mystery. For example, the exact workings of stale move decay were completely unknown. People had various vague ideas about how it worked, but the extant research provided only approximations, which were inconsistent with the evidence. We decided to figure out precisely how damage was calculated in Brawl, out of a love for the game.

I am a computer scientist, but I haven't done any Brawl hacking, partially because I never bothered to buy a USB Gecko. However, this didn't set us back—instead we adopted a traditional evidence-based, black-box approach to figuring out these mechanics. AA did most of the evidence collection, tediously using sequences of moves hundreds of times against various stage obstacles and opponents. Using the evidence, we made charts and graphs, and came up with a model that turned out to be exactly right. At the same time, we also investigated a bunch of other mechanics, but our greatest accomplishment at that time was stale move mechanics, and I'd like to think this was a substantial contribution to the community.

We posted these results on December 13, 2008. The thread can be found here. The Brawl+ people had been looking to modify the stale moves system in Brawl for quite some time. As it turns out, this research was exactly what they needed to create a stale moves code. It was published by spunit262 some time shortly after. His post in the Brawl Codes thread can be found here. In this post, you can find the following “Thanks Note”:

spunit262 said:
Special thanks to ColinJF and Amazing Ampharos from SWF, Thanks to their research on damage calculations (poetically stale moves) I was able to make the Decay code extremely quickly, and provide me with a good foot hold for several other codes.
Clearly, no one is denying that our research was the basis of this code. If the present fiasco is to be any indication, key Brawl+ people—like The Paprika Killer—take attribution very seriously. So naturally I would expect my and AA's names to be attached to this stale moves code everywhere it is appears. In fact, given the present fervency, it could be characterised as nothing less than an outrage for this code to appear anywhere without giving credit to AA and me.

The definitive place to get Brawl+ related codes is the Brawl+: Code Agenda thread. Out of curiosity, I just now took a look at the stale moves code in that thread and this is what I saw:



Much to my surprise, there is absolutely nothing crediting AA or me for our research which directly led to the creation of the code. This is surprising because we are told in this thread that such an oversight is a heinous offense against property. Mere forgetfulness cannot excuse something like this—it's obvious that the credit was simply not worth giving in the eyes of the Brawl+ leaders. As will become obvious later in this essay, this lack of credit does not bother me. I do work because I want people to be able to use it, not because I want to get credit. But no one ever asked me whether I felt that way, and if people like the paprika killer are to be taken seriously, it should have been my call whether I wanted to be credited. Instead, the credit was just slipped under the rug.

What can we infer from this? That the brawl+ leaders do not actually care all that much about credit, and that their outrage in the present thread is nothing but a smokescreen designed to cause chaos. However, their ulterior motives do not make them wrong. Nor does their hypocrisy. It merely casts doubt on their character.

Quite a lot has been said about how AA and Thinkman relegated the code credit to the end of the opening post, rather than listing it after each code. But nothing has been said about why this matters. The code authors have been credited sufficiently. It is difficult to understand why anybody could care about the credit being given later in the post, rather than beside each code. In the following sections, I examine some possible reasonings behind this thinking, and show that they are all wrong.

PART 2: BUT IT'S MINE

The notion that the first person to publish a code should be able to control its use is nothing short of preposterous. The basis of all property is scarcity. There are only so many cars to go around, so if a particular car is in my possession, it cannot also be in your possession. This is why there is a market for cars; they are scarce, and as such their marginal value is above zero.

Numbers—including programs and codes—are not scarce. If I make a copy of a code, it does not necessitate somebody else losing a copy. As such, it is patent nonsense to call these codes “property” or to talk about “owning” them. As the original author, you choose when to publish a code. After that, the code will be on my hard disc, in my browser cache. Now, I can do whatever I want with it—if you say I can't, that means you are telling me what I can and cannot do with my own property, namely my computer.

I support property rights. That means I support the right to do whatever I want with my own property, including make copies of codes without consulting the original author. If you support property rights, you'll support this as well. The notion of “codes as property” actually takes away from property rights and limits what you can do with your own property: your computer, your Wii, and whatever else. My computer is real, tangible, property. My rights to it are more important than your nonsense “code ownership”.

What's more, many of these codes are very short. For example, the infinite replay code consists of two numbers: 50071944 and 1610612736 in base 10. Nothing about these numbers makes them worthy of any sort of “protection”. It's entirely possible that this sequence of two numbers could appear in the binary form of the object code of an arbitrary program. To make matters worse, many file formats have sections where arbitrary data can be written.
  • I could make a zip file containing anything, and cause the binary representation of the infinite replay code to appear in the binary representation of the zip file. Would I need to credit the author of the infinite replay code when distributing this zip file?
  • A program made to generate random 32-bit numbers would generate those two numbers side by side almost surely at one point, and given the power of modern computers, it wouldn't even take that long. Does the author of the infinite replay code have a claim to all random number generators?
  • If we split the second of these two numbers into bytes, in big endian format (descending significance), we get the following sequence of bytes: { 96, 0, 0, 0 }. Note that 96 is the ASCII code for the backtick (`). Does the author of the infinite replay code have a claim to my use of the backtick? Some other codes work out to letters in ASCII. Would the authors of these codes have a claim to my use of these letters in sequence? If I hit the keyboard at random, I could very well spell out something that a code author could have a claim to.

Consider this image of a red square which I made:



Now download this file and open it up in a hex editor—go ahead, try it yourself—and you will discover this in the file:



For the mathematically uninclined, the circled part is the infinite replay code in little-endian format. Do I need to credit the author of the infinite replay code when distributing this image of a red square? Clearly, this post itself is a heinous offense against property because I am showing this red square without offering any credit to the author of the infinite replay code—in fact, it's my red square.

A sequence of two 32-bit numbers can be interpreted in very many different ways, and many of these ways are likely to have been used somewhere. From this “property” argument, it's hard to imagine any reason why I would have to credit somebody just because I happened to post about these two numbers.

However, there is a reason why I should credit people who published these codes, and it has nothing to do with “property”. The reason is that I want to thank these people for writing the codes. It is something I do out of courtesy, and not because I am required to. There is no need to bring in an absolutely ludicrous notion of “property” in order to justify giving credit. How I choose to give credit is up to me, since I do so at my leisure. What AA and Thinkaman have done to give credit is obviously sufficient, and always was sufficient.

Once a code finds its way onto my computer—including by viewing a web page—I can do whatever I want with it, because the computer is my property. That's real property rights.

PART 3: “REVERSE ENGINEERING”

Now that we know “codes as property” is a nonsense doctrine, and that the credit fiasco is completely unfounded, we have to address the second issue that has come up: Thinkaman obtaining the throw mod code from an opaque gct file. Before we can jump into this issue, however, we need to consider the various possible meanings of “reverse engineering” so that we can fully appreciate what we are talking about. What is it that separates “reverse engineering” from just performing unit tests on a black box? More crucially, what separates “reverse engineering” from making a code that causes the game to write certain statistics to an arbitrary memory area?

Suppose that, instead of getting the code directly from the gct file, Thinkaman had done it indirectly. Suppose he had simply modified Gecko OS itself to output the codes to the video display, rather than execute them. Then he could transcribe the code without anything resembling reverse engineering. There is no substantiative difference between this and extracting the code from the gct file directly. If it's acceptable to execute the codes, then it is also acceptable to output them.

But the lack of a problem here is even more fundamental. How is extracting the code from the gct file any different from extracting it from a text file? The only difference is the format of the code. If it's acceptable to do the latter, how on Earth could it unacceptable to do the former? The only difference is the intent of the code author—but since the code author doesn't own the code (see part 2), his intent doesn't matter in the least. Once he has released the code in any format, I can use my computer to do anything I want with it, including extract it from a gct file. If you say I can't extract codes from a gct file, you are placing limitations on what I can do with my own property—and that's baffling.

It's also mysterious that Thinkaman's actions are being characterised as “reverse engineering” when the actions of the original code authors are not. Nintendo clearly did not intend for you to poke around in the game's memory, and since this whole reverse engineering argument is based on intent, you doing so to make these codes is reverse engineering. Obtaining information on things like shield health from the data can be characterised only as reverse engineering as well. How do you think Gecko OS was made in the first place if not reverse engineering various aspects of the Wii? If reverse engineering is so horrible, why is it widespread in this community?

If the throw mod code was so incomplete, it simply should not have been published at all. Once it's published—in any form—it's fair game, assuming you respect my property rights to my own computer. The only possible criticism of Thinkman here is how he initially lied about the origin of the code. Since there is nothing wrong with extracting the code from the gct, he should have just been honest that he did it.

PART 4: HOW WOULD YOU FEEL

Throughout this controversy, a large number of posts have focused on emotional appeals. “How would you feel if somebody released your code without your approval?” or “How would you feel if you weren't credited in exactly the right way?” Although part 1 already touched on this, I'd like to give a more explicit response to these questions.

The first thing to be asked of these emotional appeals is: why do they matter? People like the paprika killer are going to keep making codes whether AA credits him in his preferred way or not. So really, it doesn't matter how they feel.

But that response doesn't seem very satisfying so let me tell you how I would feel. All of the software I write is free—as in, you are free to do what you want with it, including modify the source and distribute your own modified versions of the software. I am quite all right with people incorporating my code into other programs and giving only minimal credit. In fact, even giving no credit does not bother me that much (as evidenced by part 1), so long as the work remains free (as in freedom).

I am the co-author of the most popular pokemon simulator, Shoddy Battle. It is used by thousands of people every day to play five hundreds thousand pokemon matches per month. And the source code is freely available for people to do (almost) anything they want with. For example, one group used it as the battle engine in a MMORPG, Pokenet. Notice how the credit to me and Shoddy Battle is minimal. They aren't deceitful that Shoddy Battle was used, but it isn't as obvious as the Brawl+ people would like. This is completely acceptable behaviour. Once I've released software, I understand that people are free to do as they see fit with it. If I don't want people to do something with software I write, I don't release it.

CONCLUSION

In this essay, I have resolved all of the issues at controversy. I have shown that “code as property” is nonsense, and I have shown that reverse engineering—far from being evil—is part and parcel of this community. Support for property rights dictates that codes can be used in any way whatsoever once they are released.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
o ****.

O ****.

O ****.

O ****.

I do know we can fix that first part though. :V

Creditting them shouldnt be an issue.

Also, I just think they dont like Thinkaman just obtaining the code without asking. That's pretty much the jist of it. V:
 

B3Brawler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
128
Location
Edmonton
that was a whole lot of logic-ing there. Also, you're from Edmonton bad***!
I'm working on converting everybody to brawl+.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
The scenario as I see it is that AA didn't use the names and credit method established here. This angered PK and he decided that he didn't want them using the throw modifier he wrote. Moving on to your points...

ColinJF, if you'd requested your and AA's names to be added to the code title, I don't think anyone would have refused and it wouldn't have been a big deal. I don't really see the fact that you didn't get credit for a code (and didn't request it, it appears) being a reason that if someone else does request credit in a certain format that they shouldn't get it.

Also, the second part of your argument is based around the notion that something has been "published" for distribution. PK put the code within a .GCT, which in my mind implies that it is to be run but not modified. Perhaps this should have been more explicit. I don't think it was the same thing as freely publishing it at all, but I have a feeling you'll argue otherwise.

I also understand your argument about rights, and I don't think anyone would argue that AA has the legal right to use PK's code. However, you brought up the notion of courtesy earlier, and I'm sure you'll agree that you owe him the courtesy of asking to use said codes. It's not our right for PK to make codes for us, it is a courtesy, and in return you should show him courtesy -- especially if you want him to continue making codes.

adumbrodeus even went ahead and made a text containing the format PK requested with AA's notations in parentheses and posted it. There's really nothing to stop him from using it -- it preserves all of AA's notations for the "difficult to understand titles" while keeping the original names and authors, and it's all written up, no extra work to be done. Everyone could be happy.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
After some discussion between AA and ourselves, we have concluded that there was a misunderstanding on both sides. Everything has been worked out, and there is no need to discuss this issue any further.

Thank you.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ok, here is the throw mod then, also includes a PAL version and some notes

PAL

Code:
Throw Modifier [The Paprika Killer]
C273FD40 00000011
3C008180 811B0008
8108FFFC 7C080000
4080006C 81080030
80BE0008 5105C00E
801E0000 5005821E
801E0010 5005442E
80FE0004 3D008058
61085000 85480010
81680004 7D405B79
41820034 7C0A2800
4082FFEC 7C0B3800
4082FFE4 88080008
90030000 88080009
90030020 8808000A
90030018 A008000E
90030014 80030030
60000000 00000000
NTSC

Code:
Throw Modifier [The Paprika Killer]
C2744D40 00000011
3C008180 811B0008
8108FFFC 7C080000
4080006C 81080030
80BE0008 5105C00E
801E0000 5005821E
801E0010 5005442E
80FE0004 3D008058
61085000 85480010
81680004 7D405B79
41820034 7C0A2800
4082FFEC 7C0B3800
4082FFE4 88080008
90030000 88080009
90030020 8808000A
90030018 A008000E
90030014 80030030
60000000 00000000

adress: 80585010
or 06585010 BYTECOUN

FORMAT
XXYYZZWW 0000VVVV
RRSSTT00 0000UUUU

XX = character ID
YY = DMG
ZZ = BKB
WW = KBG
VV = angle
change to:
RR = DMG
SS = BKB
TT = KBG
UU = angle


I will update the code soon to include element adjustment, which would be written after TT
 
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