COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

Unversal Size Mod [spunit262]
04AD76C0 XXXXXXXX

It changes the size just about everything, including items, but not stage elements. It how ever has a slight glitch as it is applied twice to items when grab and characters being thrown or footstooling. For items the double applying is purely graphical, but for characters their hotbox is also affected and for large values can be KO of the bottom just by being thrown.

Hopefully that doesn't change pitch

Phantom wings

I'm not sure about the possibility of a stage size modifier as much of it is just mesh with collision bubbles underlayed beneath it - and it isn't easy to modify collision bubbles... However, I think spunit recently released a code that allows you to change the universal size of everything else, so wouldn't shrinking everything also achieve the desired affect?

 

[Adapt]

@Adapt

You know, I could take or leave the No ASL code.
On one hand, it makes edgeguarding a far-too-simple task that selective damages some characters' recoveries and leaves others untouched.
On the other hand, it makes the recovering player need to put more thought into their recovery, its trajectory, and the time of UpB use. It promotes more careful use of recoveries like G&W's.

So I could take it or leave it. I still don't like what it does to Diddy, Ness, and Lucas though.

I'm actually closer to agreeing with you than my posts would suggest... I prefer to have ASL, especially with Diddy/Lucas/Ness, but it's not the end of the world that other people prefer it. I just find it far too easy to edgeguard people.

@Kupo:

what bugs are there in the code that Spunit posted a page or two back? (when he was explaining that we had to change the value to account for number of bytes)
I know of two, and one of them just makes things interesting. Ganon's and ROB's side-Bs are kinda messed up. I didn't find any other bugs during my testing.

Secondly... Falcon doesn't need any more than 60% momentum capture, he doesn't have to be exactly like Melee... At 60% he can chain uairs across the stage and end with a knee which is plenty of momentum for him. He also can jump out and punch just fine. I would prefer to see everyone at 60% except MK and Sonic, who only need about 45% each. Maybe increasing a couple character who actually need it, like Ivysaur

Thirdly... I understand that the old code takes a lot of lines, and there aren't a lot to spare, which is a reason to support looking for another code to test.

And lastly... If you haven't noticed, I prefer to play normal brawl for the most part... but the momentum code is one that I really enjoy, and I think it adds a lot to the game. Hence, I will argue for it.

 

[kupo15]

@Kupo:

what bugs are there in the code that Spunit posted a page or two back? (when he was explaining that we had to change the value to account for number of bytes)
I know of two, and one of them just makes things interesting. Ganon's and ROB's side-Bs are kinda messed up. I didn't find any other bugs during my testing. .

You get momentum from a fox trot, even after letting go of the stick. You get momentum the frame after sliding usmashes and dash attacks. All I'm pretty sure is unfixable from the method spunit did to appease peoples want for everyone to fly through the air like falcon.

Secondly... Falcon doesn't need any more than 60% momentum capture, he doesn't have to be exactly like Melee... At 60% he can chain uairs across the stage and end with a knee which is plenty of momentum for him. He also can jump out and punch just fine. I would prefer to see everyone at 60% except MK and Sonic, who only need about 45% each. Maybe increasing a couple character who actually need it, like Ivysaur

Melee did everything right. As in....EVERYTHING. Why not replicate things that it did very well? This code does exactly that. .

And lastly... If you haven't noticed, I prefer to play normal brawl for the most part... but the momentum code is one that I really enjoy, and I think it adds a lot to the game. Hence, I will argue for it

So are you really interested in brawl+ or not? I'm confused

 

[abcool]

Oh yea kupo yes i am loving the momentum code it does EXACTLY what melee momentum did for the most part. I like the fact that when u dash and jump backwards u actually get no momentum :D. anyway I still can't DI when i jump and laser with Fox...now i don't like to seem like a bother, but i really think being able to DI with lasers is apart of any projectile users metagame..(unless u ppl never really played space animals competitively in both previous smash games)

 

[CountKaiser]

If Melee did everything right, why were half the characters in the game not tourney viable?

And you realize that Brawl/=Melee, and Brawl+/=Melee. It's good to use as an example, but not as a sheer duplicate.

And why in God's name are we trying to buff Falcon even more? He's already good enough as is.

 

[kupo15]

Abcool. Wait for FF specials

Count: There are some things that were not as good which brawl corrected such as wavedashing and roll hogging. Out of the main mechanics, I'll correct myself by saying 99% of everything melee perfected. Brawl perfected the 1% melee was not perfect in but screwed up the other 99%. Falcon is not as good as you think he is. His priority and his lack of approaching with swords will always hurt him.

 

[olsonpm]

The reason this gets called melee 2.0 is because in many aspects you are trying to bring things to be more like melee. Look at Kupo for example... he had falcon at a value for momentum that (imo) was too high because "he feels like melee". Now he went on and scrapped the old momentum code because this one should be more like melee...
Also the justification for removing ASL is given as a melee video (and some as**** GaW stalling, which is banned anyway). I recently saw an awesome match that about a full 40 seconds took place on the edge or very near it, and it was a normal brawl match.

Those examples are just in the last couple pages... I'm sure there are tons more.

Adapt, you're definitely splitting hairs here. There are many aspects to Melee that were done extremely well and fit the competitive scene even better. Both Brawl and the 64 version lacked these aspects, and made the game less fun for our competitive style. Now, there are things that Brawl has that doesn't take away from our version of 'fun' from the game (RAR'ing is just one of the MANY that they didn't take out). So although you might say we're turning it into melee 2.0 by giving weak super specific examples, the truth is that we aren't. We just want the game to be as fun and competitive as possible, and if that means take many aspects from melee and put them into Brawl+, then so be it.

Oh yeah, and when we give a reason for something by saying 'because it was like that in melee' - don't respond "You're making it melee 2.0". Think about why we would take that aspect from melee. Our minds aren't as shallow as you might think

 

[Adapt]

Kupo,
I'm on the fence about brawl+... I like a lot of what you guys have done... but some of it I don't like. For example the momentum code is something I truly enjoy playing with... 1 frame buffer isn't. I definitely see promising things in brawl+, but not if all you care about is taking things from melee, keeping them exactly the same as in melee, and sticking them into brawl+. Because contrary to what you think... Melee didn't do everything right... don't give me bs like that. We have the chance to improve on what melee did, don't waste that chance by being stuck in the melee-centric view.

Why should falcon gain all the benefit of being able to jump far because he can run fast? Other characters who can run fast but jump slow should see something from this code. We don't need a code to fix one thing that isn't broken for a single character. Falcon already has the 5th highest airspeed in the game.

EDIT: I don't say that brawl+ is melee 2.0, I just said I can understand why people want to make that assertion. I gave two examples that I noticed on recent pages.

I stand by what I said that melee isn't the absolute gold standard at which fighters like brawl must be held to

 

[ShortFuse]

Kupo,
I'm on the fence about brawl+... I like a lot of what you guys have done... but some of it I don't like. For example the momentum code is something I truly enjoy playing with... 1 frame buffer isn't. I definitely see promising things in brawl+, but not if all you care about is taking things from melee, keeping them exactly the same as in melee, and sticking them into brawl+. Because contrary to what you think... Melee didn't do everything right... don't give me bs like that. We have the chance to improve on what melee did, don't waste that chance by being stuck in the melee-centric view.

Why should falcon gain all the benefit of being able to jump far because he can run fast? Other characters who can run fast but jump slow should see something from this code. We don't need a code to fix one thing that isn't broken for a single character. Falcon already has the 5th highest airspeed in the game.

EDIT: I don't say that brawl+ is melee 2.0, I just said I can understand why people want to make that assertion. I gave two examples that I noticed on recent pages.

I stand by what I said that melee isn't the absolute gold standard at which fighters like brawl must be held to

Unfortunately that's the turn things are taking. Let's just wait until we discover all the codes we can before we can finalize stuff. I want a bit higher frame buffer, ASL and no so many changes to character movement. The original intention of Brawl+ was for the game to keep the same Brawl feel. It's feeling like Melee at the moment. Once we get all the hacks we can we can start chipping away from what is Melee stuff. I do fear Melee 2.0 as well. I actually wouldn't mind is an actual Melee 2.0 if that were the official stance. That would be nice but the direction this is taking isn't what was originally envisioned for Brawl+. I'm done arguing my points so I'm going to wait a few more weeks and see what new codes come up.

 

[olsonpm]

Well, pick a side then because you can't say you don't believe that when you're arguing FOR it the whole time. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[kupo15]

I just tried the new momentum code and everything felt pretty good. Only problem is we STILL have bugs with Ganon's side special and Falcon's side special. Also, apparently, you can double jump in any direction and the murder choke will still act as if you ran from it. I don't know if there's any way around these two specials but, it'd be nice if they were fixed (even if they are super cool).

Sonic doesn't get much momentum if any at all, which I don't mind that much, then again I am new to Sonic so lol. Captain Falcon still slides a little when you use a Dair from your momentum, which isn't much of a surprise. As far as I know, the characters listed below had either 0 to hardly any momentum:

ZSS
Marth
Ike
Sonic
Lucas
Ness
Jigglypuff
Samus
Bowser
Peach
Kirby
Luigi
Wario
Olimar
Snake
G&W
Sheik
Zelda
Wolf
Pit

That's 20 characters of 35 that don't gain very much momentum leaving us with 15 characters that DO have some momentum or enough to be noticeable. (i.e Ganondorf) I don't think this is a problem, it's almost half the cast which IMO, works out pretty well. Of course, some chars who have momentum may have the advantage over those that don't. And, some that even have momentum don't gain much from it other than a more useful Dair or Fair (i.e DK). At the end of the day, the code works well minus the three things I mentioned that still need to be tweaked.

Jiggy and wario are not momentum based characters anyway. Im pretty sure ike and kirby and marth get some though

 

[abcool]

I like the character size mod, but i seriously can't play intense matches if i am laughing at the squeaky voices that needs a fix....i guess i'll turn it on for ffa and teams then. I hope spunit can fix that little error though...:/

 

[Revven]

Jiggy and wario are not momentum based characters anyway. Im pretty sure ike and kirby and marth get some though

I couldn't really tell if Kirby, Ike, or Marth got any momentum. Like, when I ran and Naired with Marth it did SORT of feel like he had some but I wasn't so sure. Ike was the same too, I Naired with him and couldn't really tell. Kirby, I ran and Faired and immediately fell like I would if I just did a standing jump. I didn't bother to try Nair with Kirby but, I'm 95% sure Kirby doesn't get any momentum. Surprisingly, Lucario does though, which is pretty sweet IMO.

Again, just fix Ganon's and Falcon's side specials and the code will be gold.

Also, does anyone else think SHADing for momentum based characters is a little... too good?

 

[kupo15]

Because contrary to what you think... Melee didn't do everything right... don't give me bs like that. We have the chance to improve on what melee did, don't waste that chance by being stuck in the melee-centric view.

I'm sorry. Did I or did I not correct myself? Why else are we not including wavedashing, roll edge hogging?

And once again did you not read what I said? Its not like the code doesn't affect these characters, its just that the value is too low to affect them. I may be possible to up the effect on certain characters so they get some momentum...not flying through the air as falcon.

I like the character size mod, but i seriously can't play intense matches if i am laughing at the squeaky voices that needs a fix....i guess i'll turn it on for ffa and teams then. I hope spunit can fix that little error though...:/

So its still there. Bummer

 

[Adapt]

Well, pick a side then because you can't say you don't believe that when you're arguing FOR it the whole time. It doesn't make any sense.

Shortfuse just elaborated on my viewpoint nicely. For example, if it really were melee 2.0, wavedashing would be in the game. But I see a number of things that could be improved, but are being cast aside to make the game feel more like melee.

I'm finished arguing, because as Shortfuse just said, lets wait until more of the codes that are under investigation have been finalized.

EDIT: Kupo, I didn't see your correction. But we still have differing views on a few points. Is it too much to ask to keep both avenues of approach open with respect to the momentum code?

 

[Revven]

I think we should include some 64 stuff soon so people can STFU about "OMG STOP TAKING STUFF FROM MELEE", I know 64 had some pretty cool stuff that Melee didn't... I think so anyway (*cough* taunt canceling *cough*)

 

[abcool]

Yeah. I think a character voice fix would do the trick. But i can clearly say u did it kupo congrats the momentum code feeling good, besides the side-b ganon and falcon glitch, i can't wait to play teams and get that FF on neutral b code.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Just why the hell is ASL/no ASL still being discussed...

 

[kupo15]

EDIT: Kupo, I didn't see your correction. But we still have differing views on a few points. Is it too much to ask to keep both avenues of approach open with respect to the momentum code?

Once again. Did you not see what I wrote about the possibitility of upping the levels of some characters so they get some momentum? The old cast should play exactly like they did before and move the same way. The momentum code right now also affects the new cast in its own special way which I think is good. Kirby didn't really get any momentum in melee and similarly, Pit, MK and DDD don't also. The similarities between melee and brawl are really freaky as to how something we thought was not programmed in the game at all turns out to act the same way as it did in melee affecting the same characters. Everyone should not get momentum equal to their dash. The reason why Falcon flys really far compared to other fast runners? His air resistance is better (or so I believe). I also main pit and I'm sad he doesn't get anything either but yea, its the way it should be I think.

Yeah. I think a character voice fix would do the trick. But i can clearly say u did it kupo congrats the momentum code feeling good, besides the side-b ganon and falcon glitch, i can't wait to play teams and get that FF on neutral b code.

I don't know if that can be fixed :\
Hopefully the specials can be fixed. I'll have to think about that one but my main goal was to make this code act like the last one..except better implemented.

I'm so glad we can RAR momentum again!

Also, don't just thank me. Thank pw and spunit for their help. I just did some research and suggested a way to make it. They made it a reality.

 

[Adapt]

Agreed on the taunt canceling! Although if it's any more than 2-3 lines don't worry about it.

btw, is there any chance of getting a simple code for "names in replays" in the near future.
It would really help us out at our next tourney in Halifax. We use the infinite replay length code to record matches from the tourney, and from our last one we have 20ish replays of which we do not know who is playing.

 

[Revven]

Agreed on the taunt canceling! Although if it's any more than 2-3 lines don't worry about it.

btw, is there any chance of getting a simple code for "names in replays" in the near future.
It would really help us out at our next tourney in Halifax. We use the infinite replay length code to record matches from the tourney, and from our last one we have 20ish replays of which we do not know who is playing.

IIRC, spunit said it wouldn't be possible to have "names" show in replays if the replays don't even store that data (like who used what name). I wouldn't get too hopeful for that feature. D:

 

[Almas]

I'm sorry. Did I or did I not correct myself? Why else are we not including wavedashing, roll edge hogging?

Those are two of melee's best features! The problem is that the former just doesn't add to the game in the same way for Brawl as it does to melee, and the latter... Heck, I'd quite like to see the latter.

The problems with Melee were its steep learning curve, and the fact that only a fairly small proportion of the characters were tournament-viable (a "feature" which was "expanded on" heavily in Brawl, I must say, though).

 

[kupo15]

You want to see the roll edge hogging? Why?

 

[Adapt]

I agree with Kupo, if your character's model isn't on the edge, then the ledge should be unoccupied.

 

[abcool]

anyway kupo good news. the new universal size mod DOESN"T include voices and the voice sound normal lol i probably didn't export the code to my sd card and was testing the old code so YES!! smaller characters and the same old voices lol also i am testing the friction code with 0.05 and i'll brb with a good answer to wether it's useful or not.

 

[kupo15]

what the ****? Must try noa~

 

[trojanpooh]

Its true, the size mod works. We should now test it with items that appear in tourney play. By the way, I am currently working on a way to disable ladders, and its pretty fun actually (when the values don't crash Brawl anyway).

 

[abcool]

ok now with the friction mod, i know some ppl miss the slide but for the most part it's under control now i'll try 0.02-3 now.

 

[kupo15]

Who wants this code in? I do. Post your support
Universal mod

04AD76C0 3F6E147B

.93

 

[Shell]

If you change the char-size with this most recent code does it affect jump heights?

I.E. do characters still full hop on to platforms correctly, etc?

 

[abcool]

Now i can say for sure that 0.05 feels about rite...i may be wrong can u guys test between 0.01to about 0.09 to get an accurate amount of friction needed, falcon seems to be an exception and needs his character specific. On to other news luigi can Di when using neutral B, i am starting to believe sakurai intentionally removed the space animals Di during lasers for some strange crazy reason :/

 

[trojanpooh]

Who wants this code in? I do. Post your support
Universal mod

04AD76C0 3F6E147B

.93

Post it where? The plusery?

 

[kupo15]

If you change the char-size with this most recent code does it affect jump heights?

I.E. do characters still full hop on to platforms correctly, etc?

Not sure.. but we can compensate

Post it where? The plusery?

Not a bad idea

Spunit is awesome
Almas is awesome
Paprika is awesome
Phantom wings is awesome

 

[abcool]

If you change the char-size with this most recent code does it affect jump heights?

I.E. do characters still full hop on to platforms correctly, etc?

yes they do.

 

[Shell]

Any other bugs? Spunit mentioned kills off the top being wonky, I believe.

 

[kupo15]

Any other bugs? Spunit mentioned kills off the top being wonky, I believe.

Not really. He said don't use really high values. You can also show support here as well

 

[abcool]

Any other bugs? Spunit mentioned kills off the top being wonky, I believe.

Dude the only way to know is to test it. I got some friends coming over and i'll post my thoughts on the universal code...but so far i am loving it simply cause i can run around like a beast with fox....i am officially in my natrual habitat again.

 

[leafgreen386]

Those are two of melee's best features! The problem is that the former just doesn't add to the game in the same way for Brawl as it does to melee, and the latter... Heck, I'd quite like to see the latter.

The problems with Melee were its steep learning curve, and the fact that only a fairly small proportion of the characters were tournament-viable (a "feature" which was "expanded on" heavily in Brawl, I must say, though).

I agree that wavedashing in melee was quite amazing. However, it really doesn't translate well into brawl at all, and even if it did, I would be cautious about using it, as that really would be crossing the bridge into melee 2.0... and this is brawl+. As for roll edgehogging, that was just stupid. Characters can be a foot inside the stage already and you miss the ledge.

As for the momentum code... it's perfect. Absolutely and utterly perfect. I left it set to 1.0, and everyone just feels... "right." Falcon and fox go just as far as I'd expect them to without being unwieldy. Pika keeps his insane momentum just as I expected he would. Falco and sheik get some distance, but it's not extreme, and I wouldn't expect it to be. Jiggs doesn't get any noticeable extra distance, which is again exactly as I would expect. Ganon was probably my biggest surprise, seeing how much extra ground he could cover in a sh, but spacing fairs felt extremely natural with it.

Now, the character size mod. I'm gonna be honest, here. A while ago, I would've thought this was just silly. But hey, it's actually really nice. Stages feel more spacious, without that cramped feeling I seem to get on every stage in brawl, rather than just a few select small stages. It feels more natural when you're comboing someone across the stage, too. Also, as kupo put it over aim, "team matches finally feel less like you're in a mall of crowded school girls." It doesn't really screw with anything, either. I thought I would have spacing problems when I first saw it, but it was actually really easy to adjust to. I think we should give this code a shot. It definitely makes team matches more enjoyable, and it helps singles, too.

 

[kupo15]

ignore this

 

[Greenpoe]

IIRC, spunit said it wouldn't be possible to have "names" show in replays if the replays don't even store that data (like who used what name). I wouldn't get too hopeful for that feature. D:

What about a code to name your replays (so you could put the names of the players there)?