COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Alopex]

Leaf, what about Sonic? How did he feel? It had to be asked, obviously.

 

[Revven]

Leaf, what about Sonic? How did he feel? It had to be asked, obviously.

If you read my post a page or two ago, you'd know that Sonic intentionally does not have any momentum increase and if he does, it's very little. IIRC, a few people were complaining about Sonic's Uair becoming useless because of his momentum being to ridiculous (going past the opponent after running and trying to Uair to continue a combo). IMO, Sonic doesn't need momentum to be good, he's already quite excellent, momentum would just make him a little bit ... too good maybe? I don't know, the point is, I think that momentum would be kinda bad for Sonic since his combo game relies heavily on pursuing the opponent with Bairs, Fairs, and Uairs. If Fair and Uair cannot connect as they do now (without momentum) then, it's bad for Sonic.

The reason why he might not have any is because of his air resistance or because of how the Melee momentum system works (the way the code was built upon).

My point is: Sonic doesn't need it, he's already fast enough.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

anyway to increase Link's chain for aerial recovery?

 

[shanus]

If you read my post a page or two ago, you'd know that Sonic intentionally does not have any momentum increase and if he does, it's very little. IIRC, a few people were complaining about Sonic's Uair becoming useless because of his momentum being to ridiculous (going past the opponent after running and trying to Uair to continue a combo). IMO, Sonic doesn't need momentum to be good, he's already quite excellent, momentum would just make him a little bit ... too good maybe? I don't know, the point is, I think that momentum would be kinda bad for Sonic since his combo game relies heavily on pursuing the opponent with Bairs, Fairs, and Uairs. If Fair and Uair cannot connect as they do now (without momentum) then, it's bad for Sonic.

The reason why he might not have any is because of his air resistance or because of how the Melee momentum system works (the way the code was built upon).

My point is: Sonic doesn't need it, he's already fast enough.

Actually, sonic with around 45%-55% momentum played superbly. Over that, most hits wouldn't finish connecting, but with a value around there he played beautifully.

 

[Revven]

Actually, sonic with around 45%-55% momentum played superbly. Over that, most hits wouldn't finish connecting, but with a value around there he played beautifully.

Yeah and I think that last bit is a problem for him. >_>;

But anyway, the current build of momentum (the one in the OP) does not give Sonic much momentum (if any at all) is what I was trying to get at.

 

[kupo15]

I think the one in the OP is absolutely perfect. We just need to figure out if we want air dodges to kill momentum

 

[Revven]

I think the one in the OP is absolutely perfect. We just need to figure out if we want air dodges to kill momentum

I don't know if we want to though. Even though SHADing may be a bit ridiculous with momentum, the way to offset that might be adding some landing lag to the air dodge so it isn't THAT abusable.

But, that's just me.

 

[zxeon]

What you two don't realize is that the plussery was considering taking V10 and making everyone at 50%, falcon at a high value..ect but what you also don't know is that they were planning to not even include momentum because we asked spunit to find a different location to pull the momentum, thus making implementation of the code really horrible. I am pretty confident that with the method spunit had to do to satisfy peoples want for momentum towards all characters, there is no way to fix the buggy problems you see in V10. Thus it would be scrapped anyway.

This new code gives almost everyone their 50% even at a value of 95%. It acts like how the older one with char specifics would have acted and its implemented much better. I don't think that sonic doesn't get momentum, he just gets 30% momentum because based on what I'm seeing, it looks like 30% from the old code. So we might be able to make it char specific to accommodate other chars if we want to or adjust the strength of the code so that its twice as powerful. So quit *****ing until we know what is possible with this code.

Did you realise I don't give a ****? The new code still doesn't distribute momentum correctly and that's why it sucks. Come see me when it's working properly.

 

[kupo15]

Did you realise I don't give a ****? The new code still doesn't distribute momentum correctly and that's why it sucks. Come see me when it's working properly.

I guess you haven't been reading that it actually does.

 

[matt4300]

Now, the character size mod. I'm gonna be honest, here. A while ago, I would've thought this was just silly. But hey, it's actually really nice. Stages feel more spacious, without that cramped feeling I seem to get on every stage in brawl, rather than just a few select small stages. It feels more natural when you're comboing someone across the stage, too. Also, as kupo put it over aim, "team matches finally feel less like you're in a mall of crowded school girls." It doesn't really screw with anything, either. I thought I would have spacing problems when I first saw it, but it was actually really easy to adjust to. I think we should give this code a shot. It definitely makes team matches more enjoyable, and it helps singles, too.

YES!!!!, OMG YES I can't belive the day finaly came. So you guys are going to use the size mod? and it works!!! I am so happy right now

Thank you, Thank you spunit I love you @.@

 

[storm92]

Did you realise I don't give a ****? The new code still doesn't distribute momentum correctly and that's why it sucks. Come see me when it's working properly.

zxeon, the truth is chars will never have the same amount of momentum, and the distribution will always be slightly off, save for having specific values for each char.
What we have now seems to work, so if we find real big problems with it, we can fix them accordingly.

 

[zxeon]

Kupo,
I'm on the fence about brawl+... I like a lot of what you guys have done... but some of it I don't like. For example the momentum code is something I truly enjoy playing with... 1 frame buffer isn't. I definitely see promising things in brawl+, but not if all you care about is taking things from melee, keeping them exactly the same as in melee, and sticking them into brawl+. Because contrary to what you think... Melee didn't do everything right... don't give me bs like that. We have the chance to improve on what melee did, don't waste that chance by being stuck in the melee-centric view.

Why should falcon gain all the benefit of being able to jump far because he can run fast? Other characters who can run fast but jump slow should see something from this code. We don't need a code to fix one thing that isn't broken for a single character. Falcon already has the 5th highest airspeed in the game.

EDIT: I don't say that brawl+ is melee 2.0, I just said I can understand why people want to make that assertion. I gave two examples that I noticed on recent pages.

I stand by what I said that melee isn't the absolute gold standard at which fighters like brawl must be held to

All the moves Captain Falcon has are straight from Melee and work best when he has jump momentum. Same kind of deal with Fox, Ganondorf, and Link

 

[Alopex]

Falco400, there was a reason I responded to leaf's post.

He was talking specifically about how characters FELT. That's what I'm interested in hearing.

I can read the numbers and the facts, I can't read feelings unless they are posted.

I want to know how Sonic feels to leaf and why leaf feels that way. I don't care about the numbers, but thanks Falco.

 

[leafgreen386]

Falco400, there was a reason I responded to leaf's post.

He was talking specifically about how characters FELT. That's what I'm interested in hearing.

I can read the numbers and the facts, I can't read feelings unless they are posted.

I want to know how Sonic feels to leaf and why leaf feels that way. I don't care about the numbers, but thanks Falco.

I don't play sonic, so I'm really not the one to be asking this. I tested all of the characters that I play semi-frequently. Those chars all felt good to me with the code. I did try him, and I suppose he plays well, but I dunno. He definitely seemed to get a slight momentum boost from reg brawl, but it wasn't huge. Might wanna try asking a sonic main that one.

 

[Eaode]

Dark sonic is pretty much our resident sonic main right?

 

[CountKaiser]

Guys, in the op, you spelled universal wrong.

Just thought you'd like to know that.

 

[Shell]

I'm not entirely satisfied with the argument that "certain characters were meant to have momentum."

Kupo brings up the point that Melee Luigi didn't have much momentum, so why should Brawl Luigi? And of course, this means that Sonic shouldn't have momentum, right? 'Cause we're going by the developer's intentions . . . . . right?

We've been over this before. There's no need to limit ourselves to the constraints our oh-so-competitive-savvy developers. If a character like Sonic plays better with more momentum, I won't stand to see him slighted, no matter what the intention was. The same goes for any character who's play style could benefit from it.

Does this make sense to everyone?

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm not entirely satisfied with the argument that "certain characters were meant to have momentum."

Kupo brings up the point that Melee Luigi didn't have much momentum, so why should Brawl Luigi? And of course, this means that Sonic shouldn't have momentum, right? 'Cause we're going by the developer's intentions . . . . . right?

We've been over this before. There's no need to limit ourselves to the constraints our oh-so-competitive-savvy developers. If a character like Sonic plays better with more momentum, I won't stand to see him slighted, no matter what the intention was. The same goes for any character who's play style could benefit from it.

Does this make sense to everyone?

I agree SHeLL. But I'm just not sure it benefits everyone, we'll use Sonic in this case. Sure it gives him extra options for punishment, but his absurd speed was already good enough at that. I feel he loses too much of his control. I haven't updated since Saturday afternoon, but Sonic really just flys too far. I feel it throws off his whole combo game.

Basically, the way characters are designed at the CORE (hitboxes, knockback, etc.) doesn't lend them to be all that great with much, if any, aerial momentum.


Also, has anyone experienced this wierd bug where some of the characters just start flying all over the map after a jump? It started randomly last night in a Lucario vs Mario match last night. Both were clearing 75% of Battlefield in a SH. We reset the system and it didn't happen again.

 

[Shell]

Pretty sure that just happens when you're on drugs.

(Hasn't happened to me)

 

[goodoldganon]

Pretty sure that just happens when you're on drugs.

(Hasn't happened to me)

I DO COCAINE!

Ya, it was weird. I have no idea how to replicate it.

 

[kupo15]

I'm not entirely satisfied with the argument that "certain characters were meant to have momentum."

Kupo brings up the point that Melee Luigi didn't have much momentum, so why should Brawl Luigi? And of course, this means that Sonic shouldn't have momentum, right? 'Cause we're going by the developer's intentions . . . . . right?

We've been over this before. There's no need to limit ourselves to the constraints our oh-so-competitive-savvy developers. If a character like Sonic plays better with more momentum, I won't stand to see him slighted, no matter what the intention was. The same goes for any character who's play style could benefit from it.

Does this make sense to everyone?

Because we shouldn't have the liberty to change character attributes which is what the momentum code is based off of. The developers did a good job balancing the characters and giving them the right attributes that we would mess everything up because we think we should change the something about the characters. Its hard to explain. Its kinda like saying that we shouldn't change the way hitstun affects certain characters because its "better" that way.

In fact, the momentum code affects the old cast the same way it did in melee...except ganon who didn't have momentum but now does. This can be easily explained because ganon is different from his melee counterpart. His attributes are different while all the other characters stayed the same. This is proof that momentum works exactly how it does in melee and thus affects the new cast the way it should and we shouldn't change that.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Also, has anyone experienced this wierd bug where some of the characters just start flying all over the map after a jump? It started randomly last night in a Lucario vs Mario match last night. Both were clearing 75% of Battlefield in a SH. We reset the system and it didn't happen again.

Jiang pointed this out a while back and i think Cape got the same results too. I think it was fixed in the newest code tho.

 

[Shell]

Well, I hope the rest of the BR isn't as blinded by the original developer's purpose as you seem to be.

All I'm saying is to do what's best for every character. As far as I can tell that's always been the goal of our project.

 

[Alopex]

What? The developers? Come on kupo, you know better than to bring that up as an argument. This project exists entirely because the developers did NOT do a good job balancing the game OR the characters.

We've been giving ourselves the liberty to change whatever we want from the very beginning. We've changed, SHs, FHs, FFs, fall speeds, dash speeds, attack lag... those are all attributes that we've taken the liberty to change.

And you for some reason want to treat momentum differently? That doesn't really make sense.

I haven't tested momentum long enough to have a stance on it, but I DO know that we should in no way limit ourselves based on the developers' "wishes".
If we exclude momentum from a character it should NOT be because of "the developers", but instead because that character doesn't need it/is broken with it/gets worse with it/etc... and those kind of decisions can't be made until every character has been tested with a code that works properly for everybody.

 

[goodoldganon]

It's a thin line we have to walk. What might be best for a character might be poor for the rest of the cast because it makes them too good of a character. It's stupid, I kind of agree, but it's something we must consider.

EDIT: What Alopex's last line said is my stance.

 

[kupo15]

I'm not ****ing arguing developers intent. I have no idea how to explain this to you guys

 

[PanzerOceania]

he's saying that it was already balanced in melee and is future proof for the new cast so doesn't need revision.

I think.

I'm neutral on the matter because I don't have enough info but I think that is what kupo was saying.

 

[thesage]

Meh, if Ness had more momentum in melee he would've been a better character...

 

[Shell]

Start by explaining how this is different from the char-specific physics modifications such as SH / FH / Gravities.

Sure, the general SH-reduction and increased downward gravity were good for the vast majority of characters, but can you really say the character-specific tweaks were unnecessary? And that this is any different?

 

[goodoldganon]

I would imagine it's because momentum is a major difference in the way a character plays. A few new strategies have been discovered, or a few ones aren't as useful now a days, but it certainly isn't as drastic as a change as say going to and from a character like Sonic with and without momentum.

Basically, I'd love to find ideal settings for all the characters to be able to take advantage of momentum, but I'm also not so delusional to think that there is some magical setting where it benefits all characters equally or doesn't harm the game from a balance standpoint.

EDIT: Not calling anyone delusional here.

 

[GPDP]

Alright, just tested the newest Brawlplusery codeset with the newest momentum code set at 1 and the universal size mod at .93, and it is AMAZING. Only thing is, I am now convinced we need a friction mod of some sort, whether it's universal or character specific. Either way, characters like Falcon should NOT be sliding around like this.

As for the current debate on the momentum mod... I'm sorry to say, but I agree with kupo. Some characters genuinely seem like they were made to work with higher aerial momentum, and some weren't, even though the feature did not make it into vBrawl. Sonic is a good example. He was fun to jump around with, but ultimately momentum didn't really help him much. Many of his aerials would not connect properly, and he was freakin' hard to control. On first thought, it really sounded like Sonic could use the momentum boost. But once I saw what came out of it, I wasn't that big a fan. So yeah, hyper momentum like Falcon doesn't work well for Sonic's aerial game.

And the thing is, it seems the only way for Sonic and co. to achieve extra momentum is to make the code like spunit was doing, but we all saw all the glitches that were coming out of it, and we kept nagging him to fix this glitch, or that bug, or how it should work in this situation, etc. The end result was a code that kept getting ever more complicated and convulted, and STILL not all the bugs were fixed, and chances are some were just inherent to the way the code gathered momentum data. It was an uphill battle just to get a couple of characters to fly in the air, sometimes to the detriment of their aerial game.

So yeah, I like the current code. Sonic doesn't fly across the stage anymore (though make no mistake, he does get some momentum), but now momentum doesn't get stored in an idiotic way, leading to stupid crap like not being able to jump backwards out of a dash without rocketing forwards. It works much smoother.

Though I propose we make airdodges cancel the extra momentum. SHAD are a bit ridiculous with some characters. Also, I kinda liked how you had to be dashing in order for Ganon's murder choke to go a long distance, while it would work like normal if you did it out of a standing jump.

 

[abcool]

Alright, just tested the newest Brawlplusery codeset with the newest momentum code set at 1 and the universal size mod at .93, and it is AMAZING. Only thing is, I am now convinced we need a friction mod of some sort, whether it's universal or character specific. Either way, characters like Falcon should NOT be sliding around like this.

As for the current debate on the momentum mod... I'm sorry to say, but I agree with kupo. Some characters genuinely seem like they were made to work with higher aerial momentum, and some weren't, even though the feature did not make it into vBrawl. Sonic is a good example. He was fun to jump around with, but ultimately momentum didn't really help him much. Many of his aerials would not connect properly, and he was freakin' hard to control. On first thought, it really sounded like Sonic could use the momentum boost. But once I saw what came out of it, I wasn't that big a fan. So yeah, hyper momentum like Falcon doesn't work well for Sonic's aerial game.

And the thing is, it seems the only way for Sonic and co. to achieve extra momentum is to make the code like spunit was doing, but we all saw all the glitches that were coming out of it, and we kept nagging him to fix this glitch, or that bug, or how it should work in this situation, etc. The end result was a code that kept getting ever more complicated and convulted, and STILL not all the bugs were fixed, and chances are some were just inherent to the way the code gathered momentum data. It was an uphill battle just to get a couple of characters to fly in the air, sometimes to the detriment of their aerial game.

So yeah, I like the current code. Sonic doesn't fly across the stage anymore (though make no mistake, he does get some momentum), but now momentum doesn't get stored in an idiotic way, leading to stupid crap like not being able to jump backwards out of a dash without rocketing forwards. It works much smoother.

Though I propose we make airdodges cancel the extra momentum. SHAD are a bit ridiculous with some characters. Also, I kinda liked how you had to be dashing in order for Ganon's murder choke to go a long distance, while it would work like normal if you did it out of a standing jump.

I was messing with the friction code and i found 0.04 or 5 seems to stop falcon from sliding around. (often) without hurting the rest of the cast. So u can try that if u wanna

 

[zxeon]

We need some character specific friction for Captain Falcon an Fox.

 

[PanzerOceania]

I liked the ideal of not changing the characters specifically but when we get down to being realistic I think it's pretty necessary there be character specific changes to get rid of glitches and make everything fine tuned.

 

[GPDP]

We need some character specific friction for Captain Falcon an Fox.

I agree. I just tried the friction mod at .05, and it helped Falcon quite a bit (in fact, I think he still needs a little bit more), but Luigi is no longer slippery at all, and it nerfs dash attack cancels for several characters like Snake (whose I would argue is too good anyway) and Link (who does not need a nerf), as well as dashing upsmashes for characters like Fox, Falcon, and Sonic (Falcon doesn't need it much, and the extra control from friction is better for him IMO, but the other two don't need that nerf, I would say). Some characters should stay slippery.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ok, so I see the size mode up there, my question is, what are you guys plugging in for the xxxxxx values? I looked a few pages back, but didn't see where the code was posted and being described.

 

[kupo15]

he's saying that it was already balanced in melee and is future proof for the new cast so doesn't need revision.

I think.

I'm neutral on the matter because I don't have enough info but I think that is what kupo was saying.

I think that's what I am saying. It takes the old formula which worked perfectly and applied it to the new cast

Alright, just tested the newest Brawlplusery codeset with the newest momentum code set at 1 and the universal size mod at .93, and it is AMAZING. Only thing is, I am now convinced we need a friction mod of some sort, whether it's universal or character specific. Either way, characters like Falcon should NOT be sliding around like this.

You should try .95. I think it fits better

Though I propose we make airdodges cancel the extra momentum. SHAD are a bit ridiculous with some characters. Also, I kinda liked how you had to be dashing in order for Ganon's murder choke to go a long distance, while it would work like normal if you did it out of a standing jump.

I requested PW to make the change unless almas or someone else can look at what spunit did and do it

 

[Blank Mauser]

So we ended up nerfing faster characters instead of fixing Brawl's controls to actually work with momentum? Or is Sonic more controllable?

 

[Revven]

So we ended up nerfing faster characters instead of fixing Brawl's controls to actually work with momentum?

No, try the new momentum code before complaining lol.

 

[CountKaiser]

I hear people are using 0.93

EDIT: Apparently 0.95 is better.