COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[cAm8ooo]

So I assume that if we use the universal size modifier then all the jump heights from the Brawlplusery codeset will be skewed?

I think so. Notice my vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rhSlfnX4h8

Metaknight's jumps nor specials seem to scale down with his size.

 

[Adapt]

wow that was crazy... I definitely wouldn't go too far with the size mod

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

nvm forget this post

 

[Starscream]

I think so. Notice my vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rhSlfnX4h8

Metaknight's jumps nor specials seem to scale down with his size.

Interesting... perhaps this needs to be looked into.

Character specific friction seems to be a must if we are to use the momentum code. Things are just too slidey without it.

 

[Shell]

ZOMG

Ganondorf with the most recent momentum code is 9000+ fun. Seriously. It compliments his edgeguarding skills so well, while giving his SHFFLing game a much needed boost in range / mobility. I've just never seen an old man jump like that. It's insane. Thank you everyone, thank you.

Most other characters seem about on target. Sonic felt like he could use a bit more, but I'll let Dark Sonic cover that.

As far as size goes, .95 was good, but I wouldn't mind going a little lower. What was wrong with .93?

 

[Alopex]

@ Momentum: Given the list Falco400 presented on page 115, just on theory it's plain that the code is not what we're looking for. The "Melee formula" is the most absurd argument I've ever heard. This. is. not. Melee. I don't give half a crap about how Melee did things. This is Brawl, we do things our own way. And that means we test and discuss not exclude and discard. A code that excludes and discards before testing was even COMPLETE is not conducive to progress.

@ Perfect Shielding: Really? Now people want to go out of their way to complete redesign something that's been around since 64? (Yoshi)
Gimme a break. There are more important things to focus on than remapping the god**** PSing button. We don't even have all the needed codes yet and people are suggesting unnecessary line-intensive alternatives...

@ Stale VS Fresh: I'm cool with just No Stale. Get rid of the fresh bonus.

@ Size: So frivolous...

 

[Xaej]

I really don't see why modifying size is necessary, but maybe I just don't get it...

 

[Shell]

Size is actually quite a functional matter with respect to team matches, which as someone pointed out, are a significant part of tourney play. I was not entirely convinced it was necessary, but after trying it, it's a good addition.

Also, although the momentum code generally does a good job, I agree that I'd like to play with an additional char-specific modifier, if any coders are willing.

Lastly, I just needed to reiterate before I headed of to bed that Ganon with momentum is 10 lbs of burl in a 5 lb sack. He's gone from Burl to Burl+ Am I . . . in love?

 

[B.W.]

I could care less about size and the PS (leave it how we have it).

I'd like to see some better system of "fresh" since it's probably the only real new thing we've got, but the way it works is made of ********.

While this isn't Melee, it's not a bad idea to take something from Melee and bring them into B+, if it's not super complicated and game breaking. like something momentum related which doesn't really add any difficulty to the game, only to characters (but that's okay because it helps you find the character that matches your play style) and it pretty much makes itself character specific. The Melee momentum system was a **** good one, we've figured out this much. It also helps characters show off their different traits, as well as helps them function.

 

[goodoldganon]

Size has a ton of benefits, but the biggest is making the stages feel less cramped. At .95 the characters are a perfect size and you won't notice a difference in the way you play. You will notice how much more room you have to work with on the stage though. Overall, it doesn't add much to 1v1s, but it vastly improves team battles and though not as important to many, FFAs. Unless the plan is to have a different codeset for 1v1 and team battles, I am 100% for a size reduction.

Also, I'm glad the entire cast can't stab from underneath platforms anymore. Platforms a big fat pain in brawl without wavelanding, but at least now only the tall characters and sword users can do any meaningful platform poking.

Also, I agree with SHeLL. Ganondorf is so much fun and plays great with momentum. I'll discuss momentum at another time. Night guys.

 

[GHNeko]

Does this mean we can make Olimar 2inches tall?


LOLOLOL. jk jk.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Powershielding is fine. If anything should be changed it would be it's properties, perhaps more knockback for the powershield? (don't make us Luigi players cry too much).

As for the momentum code, Kupo's preferred code works well, very well, and just feels natural to the game. This is not something I can saw for the past code which affected all characters. Maybe this natural feeling is because I'm used to playing the characters in Melee, but I think it's just because the gameplay is fluid (something Melee got very right). I played all the characters and the only one that was questionable was Sonic (but I suck with him in all forms of Brawl, Dark Sonic should be able to make a better judgment).

I do realize that we have the potential to add momentum to enhance each character, Luigi may or may not benefit much from it for example, but for now, especially given the code space crunch (I'm at 255 lines), I will be sticking with this code.

 

[shanus]

My biggest beef with the size code: Jumps are not proportional with it. Therefore, all our work we spent balancing SHs, FHs, etc, go to waste due to this cosmetic issue. I played wtith it at .95, and I just don't think its worth it.

Momentum: I'm hoping Almas will be able to convert this code to character specific to see if we can actually get this code to apply to characters like Sonic who deserve momentum.

Shielding: Leave PS/Shielding alone. If anything, we need to look at shieldstun and reduce it a bit, its too much as it is.

 

[GameSystem]

Shanus, couldn't you just take all the values for sh, fh etc, and just multiply them by whatever the size mod is to get them proportional again? It should only take about 5 minutes.

 

[shanus]

Shanus, couldn't you just take all the values for sh, fh etc, and just multiply them by whatever the size mod is to get them proportional again? It should only take about 5 minutes.

That would also require reframing all of the values which are hard coded in, and also, not sure if that would work with speed of the moves to allow them to autocancel in time, double fair in time, etc (the hitboxes have been proven not to scale). The issue here is character size vs move size/speed.

 

[GameSystem]

I think you should still be able to auto cancel and double fair because since the character is smaller, they reach the ground later than a full size. I hope you understand what I mean. Like the one example before in some other thread was that since bowser's size is so big, his body can touch the kill zones faster and he dies sooner. So if they are smaller it should still work. If what you said about the hitboxes not scaling, then that is a problem. What exactly do you mean? Do you mean like marth has melee range again or something?

 

[shanus]

I think you should still be able to auto cancel and double fair because since the character is smaller, they reach the ground later than a full size. I hope you understand what I mean. Like the one example before in some other thread was that since bowser's size is so big, his body can touch the kill zones faster and he dies sooner. So if they are smaller it should still work. If what you said about the hitboxes not scaling, then that is a problem. What exactly do you mean? Do you mean like marth has melee range again or something?

There is a video of an MK at 25% double his forward+B and it still has the same sized hitbox, it looks ridiculous lol. Also, remember since we have 16 values hard coded for the character specific, to scale them down 95% would also effect the weights (read: gravity) we have spent time balancing as well. It would be pretty ugly to rework it all.

Overall, I see a lot of problems with it. If we had a code which could only make the stages proportionally larger then the characters, im all for it.

 

[GameSystem]

I know that specials don't scale. You can tell that by picking samus on tiny brawl or something. All normal A moves scale. I remember someone saying that PW or someone said it is impossible to make the stages bigger. So that is out of the question. Why wouldn't multiplying the gravity by the size mod work?
I know that this is a stupid analogy but, say you had a midterm paper that you spent 10 hours writing. Your friend calls and talks to you about it. Then you find out that you accidentally picked the wrong topic. You don't just say, well I already spent all this time on it so I won't change it. You have to start from scratch. I know it'll be time consuming to rework all the values, but if we need to to make the game better, then we don't have a choice.

 

[shanus]

So if A specials scale thats fine, but why should we be buffing specials then? So the stages can feel larger. So tornado can have a larger hitbox that is harder to interrupt? Is that seriously worth it? Either way, this isn't necessary and creates more problems than it should.

Edit: and its not me who is being lazy, Almas would have to do it. I just don't think its worth it to scale stages to make it feel less "cramped" on a stage like warioware for teams when you could easily make it a counterpick only in teams or something like that. I used the code last night and didn't think it was that big of a change, I don't see what all the fuss is about it.

 

[GameSystem]

Hold a poll and see what people think?

 

[kupo15]

@ Momentum: Given the list Falco400 presented on page 115, just on theory it's plain that the code is not what we're looking for. The "Melee formula" is the most absurd argument I've ever heard. This. is. not. Melee. I don't give half a crap about how Melee did things. This is Brawl, we do things our own way. And that means we test and discuss not exclude and discard. A code that excludes and discards before testing was even COMPLETE is not conducive to progress.

Um, the list in inaccurate and has quite a few characters that were affected by the code and a couple who's game doesn't change in the slightest with our without momentum. Do you agree melee did momentum correctly and in a balanced way? I do and this momentum code takes the perfect balanced implementation of the code and applies it to brawl as well so I trust that over anything else. Proof can be seen how the momentum code affects the old cast in the exact same way in brawl as it did in melee except for ganondorf because he changed a bit and is more his own character than melee.I'm definitely am not going to take your word on this one from your convector on how the code works and only until you try the code out yourself.

Momentum: I'm hoping Almas will be able to convert this code to character specific to see if we can actually get this code to apply to characters like Sonic who deserve momentum.

Umm..why? Sonic does get some momentum and I don't trust our personal feelings on which characters "deserve" momentum on this code. I wouldn't waste his time personally when he could be working on char specific hitstun thingy leaf was talking about

 

[shanus]

@Kupo, I am near certain Sonic receives no momentum from a running jump. Some momentum, even 20% helps him substantially. And he needs some help.

 

[shanus]

Hold a poll and see what people think?

That is what we are doing in the back room.

 

[Revven]

@Kupo, I am near certain Sonic receives no momentum from a running jump.

He doesn't, I don't even know how kupo can say he does when he clearly doesn't get any momentum at all. I played Sonic in B+ without momentum and watched some of my matches again, he goes the same distance with the code as he does without. I think I'd be able to notice a difference if he got momentum.

 

[zxeon]

It's not going to be based off his personal feeling Kupo the community will decide upon testing the code sets.

 

[Shell]

I did some pondering about momentum based on the fact that a huge momentum boost isn't that helpful to Sonic but is very helpful to Falcon, as well as the surprise at how well momentum complemented Ganon. This lead me to these (possibly already stated) conclusions:

-It's most helpful to characters with mostly single-hit moves. Sonic's Fair, Uair, and Nair show how high momentum can sometimes help these moves, but is quite often detrimental

-It's also good for characters with arials that otherwise have limited range / mobility. Ex: Ganon, the momentum transforms his Fair from a pretty-good punisher with limited approach options to a great punisher with good approach options. Same for his Stomp.

-It's especially helpful to non-floaty characters that must rely on edgeguarding. Ex: Falcon. Duh.

-Adding momentum to a character that fits these points but with already great arial range and combo options would be overpowered. Ex: Sheik

Using these four points, here are the characters that I believe could use some level of boost to their jumps:

Bowser
Squirtle

And possibly:

Sonic
Yoshi
Link

 

[zxeon]

We already learned our lesson with Sonic. You can't give him lots of momentum because he is irresponsible. A little bit of extra momentum will do him some good.

Oh and Link desperately needs momentum for all his aerial normals and specials. Momentum Dair, Fair, Uair, Arrows, Bombs, Boomerang = Win.

 

[Shell]

I don't think that being irresponsible was really the reason. I think it had more to do with the fact that it doesn't compliment his multi-hit arials, which can go right through some one before finishing. v3 still gives him a touch too little, though, in my own opinion.

 

[Dark Sonic]

-Adding momentum to a character that fits these points but with already great arial range and combo options would be overpowered. Ex: Sheik

If it becomes OP we should simply nerf them in other ways. I don't want us to be afraid of adding momentum to characters because we think it might be OP.

I agree that Sonic doesn't need 100% momentum, but a small momentum boost would do wonders for his approach and pursuit game, as well as off stage edgeguarding.

 

[shanus]

I'm going to try out a super ghetto fix to see how this works (line intense :-\):

Take momentum v3 and momentum v10. Apply momentum in v10 only to squirtle, bowser, ZSS, sonic, yoshi & link in moderate amounts. Then, I'll pray it works.

 

[zxeon]

I don't think that being irresponsible was really the reason. I think it had more to do with the fact that it doesn't compliment his multi-hit arials, which can go right through some one before finishing. v3 still gives him a touch too little, though, in my own opinion.

The irresponsible thing was a joke. You know how Sonic is.

 

[Alopex]

@ Kupo

Remember when you said this?

Jiggy and wario are not momentum based characters anyway. Im pretty sure ike and kirby and marth get some though

So you're perfectly qualified to decide what characters are based on and what they should receive? You're just throwing out feelings too, why should I take YOUR word for anything?

Melee's momentum formula was only as good as the framework of Melee. You can't just port it over to Brawl's new framework and expect it to be the same. And evidently it's not the same because it's not affecting all characters and I'll be ****ed if I'll take your word for "who deserves to be affected".
You don't make those calls. We haven't done enough testing to make those calls.

If this formula works so well in Brawl then modify it to work properly on every character. I have no problem bringing in a working system from Melee over to Brawl IF it would work identically in Brawl. That's not the current case, and I don't see why anyone here should have to accept it as a finished code.
You should be promoting further development of it, kupo, not mindless acceptance.

And kupo, the more you type, the more I start to wonder. I never thought I'd have to say this to you but...

Melee did everything right. As in....EVERYTHING.

Go freaking play Melee then.

 

[Adapt]

I'm going to try out a super ghetto fix to see how this works (line intense :-\):

Take momentum v3 and momentum v10. Apply momentum in v10 only to squirtle, bowser, ZSS, sonic, yoshi & link in moderate amounts. Then, I'll pray it works.

Link already gains momentum from v3. I think he gets enough as well that you don't really need to give him more. Also, I don't think that V10 gives much benefit to squirtle, yoshi or bowser due to how slow they run compared to how they move in the air. (but it might, I dunno for sure)

I would see if you can include Ike as well.

 

[Shell]

If it becomes OP we should simply nerf them in other ways. I don't want us to be afraid of adding momentum to characters because we think it might be OP.

I agree that Sonic doesn't need 100% momentum, but a small momentum boost would do wonders for his approach and pursuit game, as well as off stage edgeguarding.

I see what you're saying. Also, in case I voiced it incorrectly, I was advocating that overall Sonic could still use more momentum.

I'm going to try out a super ghetto fix to see how this works (line intense :-\):

Take momentum v3 and momentum v10. Apply momentum in v10 only to squirtle, bowser, ZSS, sonic, yoshi & link in moderate amounts. Then, I'll pray it works.

That sounds good. I hadn't really considered ZSS since she's mostly a vertical comboer, but I can see how it would help her edgeguarding (super RAR'd offstage bairs, etc). Good luck with the tests.


@Alopex: I agree that this current code shouldn't act as the end all be all, but it's a good starting point for Char-specific tweaks.

 

[zxeon]

Link already gains momentum from v3. I think he gets enough as well that you don't really need to give him more.


I would see if you can include Ike as well.

I'll have to test Link on V3 I hope he has good momentum jumps I can't take anyone's word on the subject yet. I'll also make it clear that I really want Link's Fsmash to have KO power. After a while spamming projectiles and Utilts is just extra work. I can has KO now?

Also Ike for momentum increase too please.

 

[Shell]

Maybe I'm biased, but Ike already has great speed, range and power with v3. If that huge, lagless Fair covered any more ground I think it would be OP. Just my opinion.

 

[zxeon]

Maybe I'm biased, but Ike already has great speed, range and power with v3. If that huge, lagless Fair covered any more ground I think it would be OP. Just my opinion.

It would still have it's crazy startup time.

 

[Shell]

Right, but now you could space the startup portion such that it's out of range of being intercepted. I hope that makes sense.

 

[zxeon]

Yeah, that's true SHeLL. I don't think it will be too much of a problem. it will make for a great tech chase.

 

[Shell]

I'm all for playtesting before making decisions, but it's just my hunch that it will be OP. We'll see if anyone can get a Char-specific version to work so we can see for sure, though.