COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[shanus]

my ghetto fix does not work, v10 overwrites all chars even if only a few are specified. we'll see if a few tweaks might fix it

 

[Shell]

Ah, thanks for trying. I hope one of our talented coders can attempt something.

 

[Adapt]

I tested link again, and he could maybe use a little more than he gets.

Ike's fair might be OP with more momentum, but I dunno. He still is majorly disadvantaged the second he gets hit off the stage.

 

[kupo15]

He doesn't, I don't even know how kupo can say he does when he clearly doesn't get any momentum at all. I played Sonic in B+ without momentum and watched some of my matches again, he goes the same distance with the code as he does without. I think I'd be able to notice a difference if he got momentum.

I heard he gets some from shanus

It's not going to be based off his personal feeling Kupo the community will decide upon testing the code sets.

It certainly looks that way

@ Kupo

Remember when you said this?


So you're perfectly qualified to decide what characters are based on and what they should receive? You're just throwing out feelings too, why should I take YOUR word for anything?

Ummm because I actually tested this **** out unlike you. Jiggs didn't get any momentum in melee because her playstyle is more in the air then on the ground AND any momentum she would get is futile seeing how well and fast she moves in the air. Wario is the exact same way and not only that, but WITH momentum it does absolutely NOTHING to their air speed because its already freakin good that nothing comes from it. I would know because I actually tested it. So you were saying??

Melee's momentum formula was only as good as the framework of Melee. You can't just port it over to Brawl's new framework and expect it to be the same. And evidently it's not the same because it's not affecting all characters and

Here is a wake up call Alopex, melee momentum did NOT affect everyone so why the **** would it affect everyone in brawl?

I'll be ****ed if I'll take your word for "who deserves to be affected".

My word for those two characters have actual proof and logical reasoning behind it unlike yours who just says "oh I think we should give it to sonic...yea"

You don't make those calls. We haven't done enough testing to make those calls.

If we haven't done the testing to make the calls, why the **** are we trying to make them in the first place? The reasonable thing to do is to accept the code as is with the proof and evidence I researched for more than a day THEN discuss things instead of arbirtrarily adding momentum to characters because you think they deserve it

If this formula works so well in Brawl then modify it to work properly on every character. I have no problem bringing in a working system from Melee over to Brawl IF it would work identically in Brawl. That's not the current case, and I don't see why anyone here should have to accept it as a finished code.
You should be promoting further development of it, kupo, not mindless acceptance.

Once again, it works exactly how it does in melee because in melee not everyone was affected. Its a working melee system ported perfectly over to brawl so this point is moot.

And kupo, the more you type, the more I start to wonder. I never thought I'd have to say this to you but...

Shut the **** up. You know that is the biggest insult and by saying this and I've lost a lot of respect towards you for saying something so childish and low.


Less personal attacks, less false assumptions, more research Alopex

 

[shanus]

Alopex is right though. We can't dictate who deserves momentum and who doesn't based on how the code wishes to apply it. Plain and simple, sonic plays better with some momentum, as does ZSS. I'm sure others do as well. If we improve one character with it, if another character can benefit equally, they deserve it too. Right now we are not being fair to certain members of the cast.

Plain and simple: ZSS (@75% or 100% if v3), Sonic (@55%), Yoshi, Bowser, Squirtle, and Ike all deserve some momentum from their dash speed.

And I never said sonic gets momentum, I'm saying it sucks because he gets none lol

 

[Revven]

Bowser needs it anyway, it wouldn't hurt to give him what he didn't have before. And if it winds up messing him up, then we lower it or get rid of it altogether for Bowser.

Let's just test and see how the characters shanus listed do with momentum.

 

[Adapt]

Kupo, can you list the character who gain momentum from jumping in melee? I want to make some comparisons.

 

[GHNeko]

What I think would be nice to help out a bit is if we start to dig deeper and fix momentum on a character by character basis. Like we start with mario and figure out what momentum percentage works best etc etc, so as we go down the list, we get values that are reflected by the community and are somewhat accurate. It might take a a bit longer, but eh. Its an idea.

 

[Shell]

To a certain extent, I don't think the code is always maintaining ground speed during the jump, necessarily.

I mean, take Ganon, he's the second lowest ground run speed in the game (Jiggz is worst), yet v3 gives him an excellent dashing jump. Thus, I hesitate to continue using the phrase "momentum" since some of the changes mean the jumps are slightly better or faster than the actual dash.

This isn't a bad thing, though. Just wanted to make sure everyone could fathom a character having a good distance dashing jump without having a super fast dash.

Edit, GHNecko, that is exactly what we've been discussing. Unfortunately we don't have the right code yet.

 

[Finns7]

Some chars dont work right with too much momentum, there style isnt designed that way.

Link is fine in V3, his smashes are fine too, the only thing he needs but is not necessary is a upb buff oos.

 

[Alopex]

Here is a wake up call Alopex, melee momentum did NOT affect everyone so why the **** would it affect everyone in brawl?

I never said everyone should get momentum, nor that everyone needs it. But everyone needs the possibility of adjustment. Characters like ZSS, which apparently don't get any momentum at all. You, kupo, just look at the code and say "Oh, hey, looks like the code doesn't want you to have momentum ZSS. Too bad!".
That's not what we should do. We should look at every character and ask ourselves WHY the code doesn't give them momentum and SHOULD they really be excluded? You're putting too much faith in an old system. You're assuming it'll automatically account for all the vast changes between Melee and now. That's naive.
You want to take blind acceptance over critical thinking and analysis. I'll pass on that.

My word for those two characters have actual proof and logical reasoning behind it unlike yours who just says "oh I think we should give it to sonic...yea"

Oh, hey, guess what? Quote me. I challenge you.
Find a quote by me where I EVER said that we should give momentum to Sonic.
Don't make false quotes.
I want the code applying to everyone in an adjustable way, because that gives us the freedom to analyze.

If we haven't done the testing to make the calls, why the **** are we trying to make them in the first place? The reasonable thing to do is to accept the code as is with the proof and evidence I researched for more than a day THEN discuss things instead of arbirtrarily adding momentum to characters because you think they deserve it

Hey, once again, go quote me.
Find out where, at any point, I specifically mentioned characters I wanted to give momentum to. Good luck bud. I want the code to apply in an adjustable manner. That's all I ever wanted.

You are only one person. Your research is not absolute. Your viewpoint is not law. Your results alone do not make Brawl+. Sorry.
Instead of discussing your results with the community, you want people who never did their own tests to just take your word for it, as if it's better than anyone else's words. Shanus tested too, he has a different viewpoint. You don't discuss that, you shoot him down.
Acceptance is not the reasonable thing, we are not lemmings. This is a collaborative effort. Everyone tests, every researches, everyone gives input.
What makes YOUR research so much better than shanus's that your research is empirical?

This may be your thread, but this is not your project.

Shut the **** up. You know that is the biggest insult and by saying this and I've lost a lot of respect towards you for saying something so childish and low.

I'm not interested in your respect, kupo.
I'm interested in making Brawl+ the best it can be.
Those who cannot get over their obsession with Melee enough to see Brawl+ in a different light shouldn't be trying to change the game to their wishes.
I won't let Melee dictate how my characters in BRAWL should move in the air. I'll let community research and debate make up my mind. Thanks.

 

[GHNeko]

Edit, GHNecko, that is exactly what we've been discussing. Unfortunately we don't have the right code yet.

Then if that's the case, why are we adding momentum to codesets. My worry is that if we add something and we get used to it, but then have to change it somewhere down the line, It'll cause issues to people who are used to it. Its fine and dandy if they can adapt, but if someone finds it better than the altered version, it'll cause conflict. :/

 

[zxeon]

Then if that's the case, why are we adding momentum to codesets. My worry is that if we add something and we get used to it, but then have to change it somewhere down the line, It'll cause issues to people who are used to it. Its fine and dandy if they can adapt, but if someone finds it better than the altered version, it'll cause conflict. :/

You can't control people. Consider it alpha testing. The real question is: why aren't you playing with jump momentum yet?

 

[Adapt]

Jump momentum adds a lot to the game imo. I believe that we should be working towards finding a way that we can pick and choose who gets it, and apply it in such a way that it increases game balance, playability, and also makes it more fun.

 

[zxeon]

Way to state the obvious Adapt.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Wait, Jiggs and Wario have more air speed than others already? I always thought their momentum was the same they just turned on a dime and obviously controlled a lot better and were more versatile. As far as speed goes, their air speed wasn't faster or if it was it wasn't noticeable to me.

 

[Adapt]

Way to state the obvious Adapt.

read what Kupo has recently posted... not everyone sees that as obvious

 

[leafgreen386]

Then if that's the case, why are we adding momentum to codesets. My worry is that if we add something and we get used to it, but then have to change it somewhere down the line, It'll cause issues to people who are used to it. Its fine and dandy if they can adapt, but if someone finds it better than the altered version, it'll cause conflict. :/

I think anyone who's been playing brawl+ since the start has gotten used to the fact that their character can change quite considerably from codeset to codeset, and has accepted that they may need to make adjustments to their game as they play more.

Anyway, although I think the current momentum code is great as is, getting a character specific mod where we can use values greater than 1 for to boost characters that benefit from a slightly higher momentum than what they're getting could be nice. I can see both sides' arguments on this one. On the one hand, the code is fair as it is, applying a universal system to every character, and those that respond to this system get momentum. It works quite nicely for most characters. But there are other characters that could benefit from having some more momentum, thus we'd want a char spec mod for it. However, I don't think anyone has too much momentum atm. Either a value of .95 or 1 works just great for most chars, and it's only a select few we'd need a value greater than 1 for.

 

[GHNeko]

You can't control people. Consider it alpha testing. The real question is: why aren't you playing with jump momentum yet?

Because my mom treats me like I'm 8 and thinks she can punish me by taking my console for eating in my room when I'm 18. I havnt even tested 3.2 at all. :/

I think anyone who's been playing brawl+ since the start has gotten used to the fact that their character can change quite considerably from codeset to codeset, and has accepted that they may need to make adjustments to their game as they play more.

I suppose your right. Though not many people realize that things change in a beta. That and there were alot of bugs with initial momentum.

 

[kupo15]

Alopex is right though. We can't dictate who deserves momentum and who doesn't based on how the code wishes to apply it. Plain and simple, sonic plays better with some momentum, as does ZSS. I'm sure others do as well. If we improve one character with it, if another character can benefit equally, they deserve it too. Right now we are not being fair to certain members of the cast.

Give me a reason why they deserve it that will be beneficial to the balance of the game. You and others have said that ZSS is quite OP so now you want to give her momentum also? And what happens if the character specific thing falls through? Are we just going to scrap it and if so, based on what?

Plain and simple: ZSS (@75% or 100% if v3), Sonic (@55%), Yoshi, Bowser, Squirtle, and Ike all deserve some momentum from their dash speed.

Ike gets momentum.
Yoshi's air speed doesn't change with momentum

Bowser needs it anyway, it wouldn't hurt to give him what he didn't have before. And if it winds up messing him up, then we lower it or get rid of it altogether for Bowser.

Let's just test and see how the characters shanus listed do with momentum.

Or how about we stick with the original formula and see which characters "deserve" it? He already has his thick skin which makes him a tank character like they wanted and air momentum for him doesn't make him just a tank character anymore.

I never said everyone should get momentum, nor that everyone needs it. But everyone needs the possibility of adjustment.

Yes you did

If this formula works so well in Brawl then modify it to work properly on every character

You're putting too much faith in an old system.

The old system worked, or am I making that up? I have more faith in something that worked before than some new idea that we have no idea will affect the balance of the game. Your not taking into account the balance of the game or what might happen. People say ZSS is OP and we are finding ways to nerf her, yet you want to buff her some more?

You're assuming it'll automatically account for all the vast changes between Melee and now. That's naive.
You want to take blind acceptance over critical thinking and analysis. I'll pass on that.

You are wrong. I'm saying is that we should see how this works before changing things around. What sounds broken on paper doesn't mean it is broken. You should know that from your involvement in this project.

Oh, hey, guess what? Quote me. I challenge you.
Find a quote by me where I EVER said that we should give momentum to Sonic.
Don't make false quotes.

Stop being smart. You got the jist of what I was saying. Stop coming up with something to steer me away from the original argument

I want the code applying to everyone in an adjustable way, because that gives us the freedom to analyze.

I want the code to apply in an adjustable manner. That's all I ever wanted.

For what reason

Hey, once again, go quote me.
Find out where, at any point, I specifically mentioned characters I wanted to give momentum to. Good luck bud.

Once again, stop nitpicking at what I say and realize the big picture. Please point out in that quote where I mentioned specific characters.

You are only one person. Your research is not absolute.

Then please, if you think so, counter my research on how the momentum in melee works. You thought it affected everyone and you are wrong so how are you right and I am wrong? Come up with your own research that differs from mine and use that as an argument.

Your viewpoint is not law. Your results alone do not make Brawl+. Sorry.

Please quote me where I say "my view is law" instead of "we should give this a try to see if its a problem before making adjustments"

Instead of discussing your results with the community, you want people who never did their own tests to just take your word for it, as if it's better than anyone else's words.

Quote me where I said that.

Shanus tested too, he has a different viewpoint. You don't discuss that, you shoot him down.
Acceptance is not the reasonable thing, we are not lemmings. This is a collaborative effort. Everyone tests, every researches, everyone gives input.

Oh did he now? And what research is that that I shot down? How can I shoot down research that disproves my melee research I didn't know existed?

What makes YOUR research so much better than shanus's that your research is empirical?

Because no one ever said anything that was wrong with the results from my research and the results in brawl match my research?

This may be your thread, but this is not your project.

No ****. Stop trying so hard to be a tough guy

I'm not interested in your respect, kupo.
I'm interested in making Brawl+ the best it can be.

Then stop flaming me because you don't have anything better to do. I spent the time with the research on the momentum and I took the initiative to get a better momentum code which I succeeded at and you have nothing better to do than to flame me? You just came out of nowhere and started flaming me...hmmmm

Those who cannot get over their obsession with Melee enough to see Brawl+ in a different light shouldn't be trying to change the game to their wishes.

You don't know me and stop pretending that you know me. You have no basis that I am obsessed with melee. If it wasn't for melee and my curiosity on how it worked in melee, we wouldn't have a better momentum code right. Stop flaming people's good deeds and hard work.

I won't let Melee dictate how my characters in BRAWL should move in the air

Wow, with all this melee hate it seems like you think its a terrible game that we can't learn from it and use what worked in it.

Thanks

Thanks for your ignorance

I'll end with this:

I have no problem bringing in a working system from Melee over to Brawl IF it would work identically in Brawl.

It does so what's is the problem?

That's not the current case, and I don't see why anyone here should have to accept it as a finished code.

Completely wrong. You obviously didn't know how it worked and your claiming you do.

 

[shanus]

Kupo, no offense, but this momentum code is only better for some chars. It's by far not the ideal code yet. Not until it can address the chars it leaves unaffected.

Also, I have never said ZSS is OP, others have, not I. She is a good character, but she clearly benefits from momentum, especially into f+b combos as a finisher. Also, Sonic obviously benefits at low momentum percentages. As long as he isnt over 55%, he can link his entire aerial and chase people effectively in the air. And sonic needs the help because the more I play him, the more I see he needs it as a mode to kill people. It gives excellent options to jump off the edge into reverse hitting bairs or fairs as a mode to kill.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, no offense, but this momentum code is only better for some chars. It's by far not the ideal code yet. Not until it can address the chars it leaves unaffected.

Also, I have never said ZSS is OP, others have, not I. She is a good character, but she clearly benefits from momentum, especially into f+b combos as a finisher. Also, Sonic obviously benefits at low momentum percentages. As long as he isnt over 55%, he can link his entire aerial and chase people effectively in the air. And sonic needs the help because the more I play him, the more I see he needs it as a mode to kill people. It gives excellent options to jump off the edge into reverse hitting bairs or fairs as a mode to kill.

So your telling me it didn't work in melee?

 

[Shell]

Protip, kupo -- if you're going to criticize someone else for nitpicking what you say, you shouldn't do it back to them. Regardless, this seems to have hit some personal level, which I think requires a Personal Message between you guys.

Also, you say we should try things first. Doesn't this mean that we should try the char-specific tweaks first? I understand that Melee's formula was a good starting point but it's only that. A starting point for trying new things. I don't think we've stayed with our initial values for nearly any code.

Please, everyone, try to keep an open mind regarding any conceptions you may have for how a character "should" behave.

 

[Adapt]

Kupo... Since you have done research on this... I ask again

Which characters had momentum in melee?

 

[Heavyarms2050]

plz keep the flame war to the pm's,

anyways i think it would cool to give every characters momentum because that would be another reason why we are not making melee 2.0

 

[goodoldganon]

I think Ganondorf is the perfect example of a character that didn't 'deserve' momentum. What I mean is look at how slow he is! Second slowest ground speed and he gets amazing momentum. Greatly improving his options and his game. I agree that some characters might become too good with momentum, and if that's the case we'll deal with it accordingly.

If a good, working code comes out that can adjust the characters individually and add momentum as we see fit then hell ya I will test it. That being said, I'd rather see a tech fix first then the next step on momentum.


EDIT: On another note, what do we think is left for this project? I love the changes the Brawlplussery betas have offered, but it has eaten a lot of time and manpower. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather Brawl+ be the best it could be then rushed, but we do have Spring Breaks and Easter coming up. I'd love to see if we could get a fist Gold copy out here in the next few weeks.

I think we need a fixed tech window and maybe a few more characters to be ironed out with their numbers and we should have a good Gold version. Also, yes, I am saying that we can improve upon the momentum code, but the one we have is a perfectly acceptable to ship with Gold.

 

[Shell]

I agree with this. Most of the other characters I mentioned don't "deserve" it as you say due to their dash speeds, but it would compliment their games well.

 

[B.W.]

Some characters actually do benefit from lower momentum, as well as some characters becoming too good with higher.

It should definitely be looked into for every character. I very much think that momentum should effect the traits of a character as wells as help their game while not making them too good.

Sonic could definitely use some testing. I hated Sonic with our original momentum code, but now that a lot of other characters actually travel with their jump, I feel Sonic should too, even just a little.

I explained before many characters move as they did in their original games (or the games where the character your using was playable) in Melee. I think we should do the same thing here to help stay more true to the characters. It would very much help how a player feels about his character in general. Of course there would be some exceptions, such as Toon Link (who obviously should play as a more floaty character, or at least I think so).

Characters were very much the same in Brawl, and didn't feel like themselves. Adding specific weight to a character helped in making them feel more like themselves, but making characters play in a way we're more used to seeing them play would help.

My opinion.

 

[leafgreen386]

If we make chars play as they did in their games then samus should have one of the fastest runs in the game and should get falcon level momentum. Oh, and she should be able to DJ as many times as she wants, too. IT'S TO MAKE THE CHARACTERS FEEL LIKE THEY DO IN THEIR GAMES, RIGHT?

 

[B.W.]

Not once did I say they should be exactly like they were in their games. I said they should play similar to how they played in their games without making them over powered.

Basically make them feel as though they fit in their own games (while not over doing it so that they fit fine in B+. Even if it means toning things down a decent amount).

I also said that there would be some exceptions. Toon Link being one, and Samus as well. If Sonic were to play as if he was from his own games he'd probably run much much faster.

There's no reason we can't take a character's traits in their own games and try to apply it here. Especially since characters faced changes over their years. Samus didn't move nearly as fast in Prime as she did in her classic games, since we're using her as an example.

 

[Shadic]

If we make chars play as they did in their games then samus should have one of the fastest runs in the game and should get falcon level momentum. Oh, and she should be able to DJ as many times as she wants, too. IT'S TO MAKE THE CHARACTERS FEEL LIKE THEY DO IN THEIR GAMES, RIGHT?

Stop being a jerk to somebody that's trying to calm the situation down. If you want to rile things up, get out. I don't give a crap who you are.

I agree with Project here. We should look at both how the Smash games have had characters in the past, as well as their physics in their original games, however applicable they can be. Certain things get tweaked around, of course. Some for balance, and some to fit a general perspective of their character.

 

[Shell]

@Project-05

I think this is a nice idea, but unnecessary. We've done an excellent job getting everyone's SH / FH / Gravities to compliment their play styles to the best of our abilities. I don't see any reason to change these, especially not for the superficial reason of matching their games.

The same goes for momentum. Focus on the metagame they have, their strengths, their weaknesses and see how a better dashing jump would affect these. There are so many flaws about trying to match a video game / show that I can't even start. Leafgreen did, though (perhaps a little too bluntly).

 

[Blank Mauser]

I liked Sonic with the old momentum code, and didn't think he was too fast. Just too uncontrollable. Otherwise I don't think it directly made him broken or anything, it just made him more versatile. As far as killing moves go he would definitely benefit but not anymore than a lot of other characters.

 

[Shadic]

I think this is a nice idea, but unnecessary. We've done an excellent job getting everyone's SH / FH / Gravities to compliment their play styles to the best of our abilities. I don't see any reason to change these, especially not for the superficial reason of matching their games.

The same goes for momentum. Focus on the metagame they have, their strengths, their weaknesses and see how a better dashing jump would affect these. There are so many flaws about trying to match a video game / show that I can't even start. Leafgreen did, though (perhaps a little too bluntly).

...You say we shouldn't be tweaking how momentum works for characters, after just admitting that's exactly what we did for jump power/gravity/short hop/fast fall for all the characters? Why not just include a value for how much momentum they get out of their jump while we're at it?

 

[Shell]

No.

I was pointing out that we tweaked the jump/gravs to compliment each character's metagame, not their shows/videogames. We should do the same for momentum. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase that perfectly, but if you've read any of my posts in the past 2-3 pages you'd already know my stance quite clearly.

 

[leafgreen386]

Alright, I admit, that might've been a little over the top, but that post was never meant to be taken that seriously in the first place.

A lot of the characters were only ever playable in some NES game with a basic physics system, or haven't ever been playable (at least in the form we have in smash; I don't think there's ever been a game where falcon was out of his vehicle except for some cutscene). The characters have already been given to us with a lot of traits that resemble how they were in their series, and if not, they were given traits that make "sense" to the character (like, jiggs was never known for sailing through the air in the pokemon games - she was just a weak little punchbag that was known for a few sleep based moves, but she is very light and is known as the "balloon" pokemon, thus making the kirby-like jumps reasonable). I really don't think there's a lot we can do that would screw up the way a character feels relative to their games, but there are things we can do that would screw up the way they play in smash. I don't think we should be overly concerned about what is or isn't canon, and instead focus on how they play in brawl+.

Samus didn't move nearly as fast in Prime as she did in her classic games, since we're using her as an example.

Well, when I think of metroid, I think super metroid. And the samus in brawl takes her super missiles from super metroid, too. But... whatever.

 

[Shadic]

No.
I was pointing out that we tweaked the jump/gravs to compliment each character's metagame, not their shows/videogames. We should do the same for momentum. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase that perfectly, but if you've read any of my posts in the past 2-3 pages you'd already know my stance quite clearly.

...And had you read my previous post on THIS page, you'd have seen that I said we should also tweak things to "Fit the general perspective of their character." As in, how they play in Brawl.

Which is what we should do for momentum, not say "If they don't get it due to how they jump, they don't deserve it!"

 

[Shell]

Ahhh, I see. You posted between myself and Project-05, who I was in the process of responding to. My initial comment on this page was not directed at yourself. I shall edit accordingly.

If we are indeed arguing the same thing, as I suspect we may be doing, then let's drop this.

Edit: except for the part that I don't think we should pay attention to the past games, really. Metagame first.

 

[Shadic]

If we are indeed arguing the same thing, as I suspect we may be doing, then let's drop this.

Edit: except for the part that I don't think we should pay attention to the past games, really. Metagame first.

Yeah, we're pretty much saying the same thing, except for that last one.

Of course Metagame > Past. However, it has to be Metagame > Past for BOTH their own games, and for Melee.

 

[zxeon]

Metagame first.